Bible Discussion Thread

Charismatic movement



I was thinking about this coined term when I looked up the root of charisma which is

either someone who's appealing or motivating or Grace which in context is always tied into things of God

because he is the author of all grace. The key being all actions or acts of Gods grace are all orderly and done

to glorify Him His son His Word when applied biblically accurate. So when I see things not done in that I

don't believe the individuals are wrong or stupid if what they're doing is what they were led to believe, in

other words wrong or misleading info. Everything our example Jesus Christ did by the power of God

represented that discreet and proper order that God works in because our Father is Epitome of absolute

beauty and order. So Gods Word should be out only rule of faith and practice.

Rick,

I think this is how the Charismatic Movement got started, where a bunch of believers though they were given all these "gifts" and that they needed to get out there and put those gifts to use. It comes from the word Charisma. Did you know that the word itself (Charisma) simply means the expression of God's grace?

I think you mentioned that you study the Greek some. Something that I've noticed is that in the New Testament, almost every place we see the word "gift," or "gifts," it is the word Charisma. I say this because I see a lot of people talking about God giving them various "gifts," but there is only one place in the Greek New Testament where the word gift means a gift that is given to us.

When we look at 1 Corinthians 12:4 that says "Now there are diversities of gifts," we see the word gifts in our English bibles, and we automatically assume that God gives us these various gifts. But this is not true according to the original text. As I mentioned, there is only one place where we see the word gift being used where it means a gift that is given to us.

It is the word DIDOMI which means a gift that is given. As a matter of fact, there's only one thing in the New Testament that the word give is used for, and that's the Holy Spirit. According to the bible, the Holy Spirit is the only gift (DIDOMI) that is given to a believer. We're not given any other "gifts." Every place else where we see the word gift, or gifts in the bible, if it's the word Charisma, it's not a gift that is given to us, it's an expression of God's grace. In many places, the word gift/gifts is in italics which means it doesn't belong there.

I just thought I'd share this. You may have already studied the words out.

Jesse In regards to the word gifts or charisma or grace, all grace is of Gods unmerited favour because of

what was accomplished by Jesus Christ. Which is why this time we live in is called the Age of Grace Gods

unmerited Divine favour to us who believe through Christ we are to walk in that divine favour operating the

spiritual abilities given by grace of God. It won't be pretty when Father closes this time down in His word.

Jesse Yes I have extensively studied this field and then the problem was so to speak asking Father which

direction to go in again because of the diversity of ideas or thoughts in this field. Again if it doesn't line up

all of scripture delete mentally and walk in Love and to me the proof sings miracles and wonders followed.

If 1 Corinthians 12:1-12 is not broken down in original language too much is missed that's my opinion and

understanding. Our God is a God of order so everything in regards to operating what we have been given

should be done in and reflect His order.

Rick,

I agree about much being missed. English is such a general language and it's the same with Hebrew. But Greek is a very exact language. It's hard to come up with more than one meaning of what the Greek text is saying. I think the Lord knew what He was doing by using an exact language (Koine Greek) when the New Testament was written. Since most of the NT is teaching and doctrine, we needed a language that was exact.

Can you imagine if it were first written in English? I honestly believe that's why we have so many different denominational churches today. It's because people cannot agree on what the English text is saying because it is such a general language and words can have multiple meanings. Here's a poor example on my part, but if our English bible says the sky is blue, I would argue that it's speaking of the color of the sky. Another believer would argue that the sky is blue meaning sad.

Something else I think gets missed is that 1 Corinthians was written as a correctional letter to a corrupt church, not an instructional letter on how the church should run today.



I also read your testimony about your son. The Lord is good!!!

jesse I absolutely agree with the denominational viewpoint because key words in key places in the original text

can totally effect how and what someone believes. I had an experience before knowing anything except Jesus

Christ healed loved raised the dead and God was telling and showing him what to do. So I went to listen to this

Evangelist share and everything was cool until he told the story of a Missionary couple doing Gods work and they

had a son who died shortly after birth and God killed the baby to teach them a lesson. Anybody can tell me

anything they want but that in no way shape or form will I buy. God is the author of Life so when I left walked up

and looked at the guy who taught and he said whats wrong and I said my God didn't take a baby, and I left. That's

the kind of stuff I don't buy because John 10:9 the thief cometh but to steal kill and destroy, I am come Jesus Christ

that they may have life and have it more abundantly. So I'll stick with the scripture.

Hi Rick

I agree that God is about Life.

But there are times when we have a new one for just a short time.

My grand niece was diagnosed in utero as being anacephaly.

Her brain did not develop properly. Most of these babes miscarriage early in pregnancy, but this dear one went all nine months and was minutes from being delivered when she died. If she would have survived birth, she would have lived just hours or a few days.

My nephew and his wife knew this and were advised to abort early on, but they are pro-life and wanted to give this babe the same opportunity at life as any other babe.

They were prepared to let God have her at His timing.

They have a wonderful testimony and had a special photographer take a beautiful picture of her once she was delivered even tough she had passed. She was named and held and loved.

So what a respectful way to accept God's sovereign choice to have this babe be with Him right away.

I can't say that her anomaly was from the devil or from the Lord's choice of her DNA.

But in all of it, she was honored, and God was glorified

Rick

I read your bit on God does not take babies and for the most part I believe he doesn't but there are exceptions concerning this.

Please consider 2 Samuel 12:13-23.

Jim Totally different situation because this couple didn't in the context of what was said weren't doing anything

wrong Davids sin was great enough that it brought the beginnings of troubles in his Kingdom from that time forward

in His reign. The grace is God did not take His spirit from Him and Solomon was His successor. When David walked

out of fellowship and for sometime because that didn't happen overnight, then he no longer had Gods protection.

Same is true today if a believer decides to buck against God, his hands are tied.

Rick

As far as you know that couple wasn't doing anything wrong but let us be careful concerning what God sees. Most of the people didn't know what David did but the Lord God did. People loyal to David would have backed up David much the same way you backed up this couple. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their baby died for anything they did or didn't do, I'm saying we need to be very careful speaking for God. Consider Jobs friends. They thought they were defending God but He accuses them of not being correct. The thing is God is in full control of this world and can give or take life as he sees fit.

There is one place where God took many lives, old people, middle age, young and children. Gen 6:7

Another place is Gen 19:24-25

Thanks for your time.

Jim

Jim Then explain to me 1 Corinthians 15:54+55 death is swallowed up in victory and Jesus Christ who always

did the fathers will healed all that believe and raised the dead. In the old testament if you say God lifted His

hand of protection and grace due to not following his commandments and that allowed the adversary to do what

does that's one thing because as long as Israel obeyed Him they weren't touched but when they walked away

from him His hand was lifted and calamity resulted not Gods Fault same happened in Eden when Adam and Eve

disobeyed calamity resulted because of unbelief not keeping his commandment. God is the author life but when

man disobeys he is subject to the consequences of the god of this world the adversary.

Hi Rick

You mention 1 Corinthians 15:54-55. This whole chapter is on the resurrection. Those verses mentioned are saying when we are raised from the dead to immortal beings death will no long affect us. The bible describes those that die in Christ as being asleep. Consider Lazarus. When he died our Lord described him (Lazarus) as being asleep. When his disciples miss understood him he told them that Lazarus was dead. John 11:11-14 Those that die in Christ will be brought back to life to die no more. So even if they die it is like sleep because they will be raised from the dead. There is an order. Jesus is the first fruits and the rest at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

We all die because of Adam. We have his nature. We all sin. The wages of sin is death.

Death will happen to all of us until the Lord returns to this earth.

The death of the child to King David happened because it would have been a constant reminder of David's sin with Bathsheba. David should have died for his two sins. Adultery and murder. God forgave him. He didn't die but the child did. God knows the end from the beginning. If the child would have grown up to be a righteous person I'm sure God

wouldn't have let the child die. We are given free will. Let us be careful on how we use our free will.

Thanks

Jim Again wrong context and I am moving on all people who die the bible says will be raised from the dead

just at different times the church of Christ at the gathering together and the just and unjust in revelation. Also

all the problems again with mankind started in Genesis after the downfall there was no death disease fear worry

doubt until that betrayal occurred just for the record. It's absolute grace that God allows us to do what we do

but there again God is Love Grace mercy tender all forgiving, absolute opposite of the enemy who is absolute hate.

Whats interesting about the word hate is to treat something with total disgust, so biblically we are to hate the

operations of the enemy in all forms and the adversaries only goal is to hate anything that represents the True God.

Hi Rich

You said wrong context. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about 1 Corinthians 15? The whole chapter is about the resurrection. If you have reason not to believe that you need to explain yourself better and followed up with bible scripture to explain your position.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You maybe right or you maybe wrong but the scriptures are where I go to find out what is right.

Thanks

Jim In the context I believe concerning sin and its consequences think about this, if adam and eve would not have sinned

would they have died or gotten old and decayed no. Because no effects from the serpent I.E. satan. That being said all

sickness disease illness due to sin in the blood and the life in the flesh is in the blood leviticus 17:11. We are born

Ephesians 2:1 dead in trespasses and sin due to Adam and Eve's transgression or sin. So were all including believers

in the old testament dealing with the challenge of walking true to Gods Word. When David and your right committing

adultery and murder are actions worthy of death in the old testament but God loving David sends a prophet to Him

nathan and Nathan Lovingly shows David His grievous error I mean David was out there spiritually His Self Pride got to

Him and we all pay for sin because the justice of God demands justice so he lifted his hand of protection and the enemy

was allowed to steal and kill. Now David via experience knew Gods Love definitely His grace and mercy because David

had Gods spirit upon him, put sackcloth and ashes on and basically begged to not loose the child. This is not saying

that all children die because a parent committed a sin personally. Every situation is different and there are things that

are occurring now that are a result of the sins of the world which we all battle. You can read when the children got into

serious forms of idolatry that when God walked way the destroyer came wiped out crops land taken over by the pagan

tribes that constantly God gave the warning to not do and the consequences. In Deuteronomy 31:16 the lord told Moses

your gonna die and after that the people are going to go whoring after other gods in strange lands and break my covenant. verse 17 and 18 he will hide His face it doesn't say he is going to do the evils! Everything works when God is in it when he's not. It's open season.

Hi Jim You didn't throw in 2 Timothy 2:15 I'm surprised I will go back and review context of conversation, thanks

for the additional I get it. Talk later.

jesse Scripturally what I see is the Gift is one holy spirit but the operation of that grace given is according

to an individuals walking on Gods Word first and foremost then as needed we are given the how why what where

and when by the spirit specific to a situation. One example in my life, many years ago my son was an infant

crawling up stairs from a basement got to the top to crawl out and the big wooden door got hit with wind and

slammed on his body. i ran over and Father said hold and don't look at him and pray for his head and neck and

walk around the yard and pray perfectly [SIT]in silence. Two minutes later was told put Him down he's healed

I put Him down and he crawled around like nothing happened. The next day our neighbor came over after watching

the whole situation ask what I was doing and I explained and he wind up Born again and His Family. As I said

before this area of understanding the gift and operation thereof is one of the most misunderstood areas of the

christian church. It is the operation of spiritual power or Gods solution to any situation.

Dear Rick Mentzer True, religious forces have long been around in church communities. So we have the liar with us every day unfortunately. Where they do everything else without reading the Word of God, unfortunately they put their own love in ruins. It helps little to sing and play if it does not come from the heart. What the heart is filled with, the mouth speaks. :)

Acts Chapter 21. God bless u and yours in Jesus Name.