Bible Discussion Thread

I desire to comment on verse four alone, when God swore, he made a promise, that the Lord Jesus Christ would be a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek. From this promise we understand that the whole Old Testament is of no longer any value to Christianity, why, due to the fact it remains under the priesthood of Levi, knowing Christ was not from that tribe, but from the tribe of Judah. Therefore he cannot go under the Old Testament law as a priest to help anyone, thus, the Apostle Paul concludes; Galatians 5:1-4 if you obey even one Old Testament law, Christ will profit you nothing, you are fallen from grace, being cursed to obey all the Old Testament law because you obeyed one, Old Testament law. Galatians 3:10 As Christians we should also know that the Muslim religion is false, based upon God never repenting of the Melchizedek priesthood given unto the Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that Islam is build upon Old Testament laws from the priesthood of Levy, so with affirmation, and without doubt we can stand boldly and testify God is not a double minded person.

Hi Chris;

I appreciate your questions and sincerity, I am glad that during those days of my life when I struggled to know clarity, for the zeal of the truth, it was able to help someone else as well. If you have questions that I might help with on the bible in general, I would be more than willing to share whatever light God has given to me on various subjects, and we could compare thoughts as well.

Dr. Lyle Lee Indeed Christ came to fulfill the law which made available the grace we now have the privilege

to walk by daily in Christ!.

Hi Rick Mentzer; I hope you have understood the priesthood of Levi, for the entire Old testament has been destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ, on Calvary, as he nailed it to his cross, he had slain that law of Moses and broke down that middle wall of partition that kept the Jews and Gentiles at war with each other. Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15

If you have fully comprehended this then you too would not be involved in tithing, or unclean animals, or circumcision for salvation, and the like. Also I would recommend reading time and again the Apostle Paul's master piece on the Ten Commandments in stone, known as the old covenant, and also Hagar. for Christians today must be under the Ten Commandments in the heart, known as the new covenant, and also Sarah. Galatians 4:21-31 I have written about this here in this book of Galatians, for your reading, and to further advance the knowledge of liberty given unto Christians who need to be make from the obeying any Old Testament laws, or the Ten Commandments in stone.

Dr. Lyle Lee,

You didn't address me personally, but your positions ignore much scripture. Jesus didn't come to destroy the law (10 commandments) he came to die for our sins, provide us the means through Him to receive forgiveness for our sins, and teach us how to live and please God, and provide for us a way to achieve salvation if we listen and believe in HIS GOSPEL!

Matthew 5:17-19

17- Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have NOT passed. Listen close to Jesus:

18- Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You may want to reconsider following God's commandments.

When asked; Jesus stated the two most important commandments: To love God, and to love our neighbor's. He also stated in the next verse: Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Jesus said that all the of law hang on those 2 greatest commandments. The commandments are still in affect - until the End of Time!

God did promise us a new covenant. Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" He will put His Laws in our minds - not do away with them!

Jesus tells us: John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Jesus also tells us 45 to 50 years after his death - in Revelation 22:14 to keep the commandments if we want to enter into Heaven. This is VERY STRONG scripture to ignore.

Read and Believe!

GBU Bro. Dr. Lyle Lee....I enjoyed your posts. TY

Hi Alex N.

I appreciate your comment, hope these posts can be of some help to you.

In the Gospels, Jesus quotes the old testament many times and how in his coming the old testament is fulfilled,

In the two verses you quoted, as in Colossians 2:14-15 Jesus is talking about blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, not the laws. Hebrews 9:11-14 explains why the ordinances are no longer necessary, because of the blood of Christ,

Rather he exemplifies the laws as in Matthew 5:21-45, 18-"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Galatians 5:14-23 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." 22&23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Hi Rod;

I read what you wrote and questions have arisen from your thoughts, you stated the Old Testament was not destroyed based upon Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15, I think you should re=read those scriptures again and pray over them for meaning, also, if the Old Testament is not destroyed can you obey even one Old Testament law today? Knowing if you do, you are cursed as a Christians to obey all 613 laws from the Old Testament. Galatians 3:10 Then you said I should read Hebrews 9:11-14 stating the ordinances are no longer of value because of the blood of Christ, I do not think these verses are teaching what you are implying at all, as this is about the blood of Christ cleaning our conscience, not about him removing the Old Testament by his blood. You then went on to talk about the Ten Commandments in stone from Matthew 5:18 and then you quoted it again from Galatians 5:14, I will ask this question, do you know the difference between the old covenant and the Old Testament? By your thoughts it appears you think they are the same thing, otherwise why mention the Law of God, when I was talking about the Old Testament being destroyed? The Ten Commandments in stone is the old covenant, it is not a testament, please do not confuse them, they must be kept separate, as the old covenant was replaced with the new covenant, meaning the Ten Commandments in the heart. Hebrews 8:6-7 But the Old Testament was not replaced it was destroyed.

Dr. Lee, According to scripture Jesus came to fulfill, not destroy, and I believe scripture to be correct.

Matthew 5:17-48 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

according to scripture, through His death and resurrection, the only thing he destroyed is the devil,

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

Hi Rod; When speaking about the law being destroyed, I am talking about the Old Testament, which is also called the Mosaic Law. It was this law that was destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary according to the wisdom of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 Knowing as Christians if we obey one of those laws we are cursed to obey them all. Galatians 3:10 which is a quotation from Deut. 27:26 Now in your argument you thought I was speaking about the Ten Commandments in stone according to Matthew 5:17-18 This is referred unto in scripture as the old covenant, as in Deut. 5:2-3 and Hebrews 9:4 These are two different laws, the one O.T. is the law of Moses, while the other one, old covenant, is the Law of the Lord, or Law of God, or moral law. These are not the same, although they share the same name as the word law, but have two distinct different meanings. While the Old testament was created by angels, as in Acts 7:53 and Galatians 3:19 knowing the word disposition and ordained share a similar meaning, to set in order or create, yet the Ten Commandments in stone, was written by the finger of God. Now this law had an expiry date, Christ did not come to destroy this law, but to fulfil this law, but once it was fulfilled it was then dead, as In Matthew 5:18 - Luke 16:16 - Romans 7:6-7 If you read carefully those scriptures I have mentioned, and need be, pray over them, you should come to the understanding of the Apostle Paul on this matter as he fought against obeying these two things in many of his epistles, as he was against Christians obeying the Old Testament and the old covenant. Because you mentioned the least commandments in Matthew 5:19 I would like to say, these twelve hundred commandments found in the gospels and epistles, are all to be considered the least commandments, while only the two greatest commandments on how to love God, and how to love your neighbor need interpretation by these least commandments of how this is done

Hello Dr. Lee. I've been following this thread with interest, as I have in my earlier comments in past months, referred to the abrogation of the Law by the coming of Christ & by His Sacrifice; that 'the letter of the Law kills but the Spirit gives life'. Therefore, any appeal to the Decalogue, however unchanged its moral & spiritual requirements might be ( Romans 7:12), would only show that we're subjecting ourselves to a Law, given to Israel, for the purposes of pointing them to their failure to fully keep it & their resulting deserved punishment. I even think of Luke 18:18-25, where the rich ruler followed the letter of the Law perfectly, yet was found lacking because he broke the very first commandment (wealth was also his god).

Yet I noticed in this thread, your clear separation of the Old Covenant (specifically, the Mosaic) & the Old Testament. I must confess that I too gave little consideration to this, believing that the Old Testament was important for its historical & many worthy Truths that we can learn from & be encouraged in the knowledge of God. But I understand from your comments, that the Old Testament (the Torah, the Prophets, & the Writings) have been "destroyed & not replaced". Could you enlarge on this aspect, as I'm wondering if all has been destroyed, what about the prophetical aspects that are yet to be fulfilled (some at Christ's coming, others still in the future)? I ask this, because I would hesitate in making such a bold statement to someone given the many worthy Truths still embedded in the OT, & though much of it fulfilled in the New, should we now totally disregard the Old? I use both the OT & NT with confidence for its Truth & applicability (when rightly divided). I would balk if someone taught me to disregard the OT altogether. Maybe that's not what you mean - just seeking clarification, thank you.

Hi Chris;

Glad to see your interest in the difference between the old covenant and the Old Testament, as the old covenant was writing with the finger of God, the Old Testament was created by angels. We are first told this truth from Steven in Acts 7:53 he taught the law of Moses was given by the disposition of angels, then the apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3:19 the Old Testament was ordained by angels. These words are interchangeable, as they have the same meaning, to set in order, or to create, meaning, it was not God who created the Old Testament, it was the angels. When understanding that this law was destroyed by the Lord Jesus on Calvary from Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 our focus must be only on those 613 laws regarding, the seven feasts of Israel, animal sacrifices, clean and unclean, new moons and sabbaths, and such like. We never refer to the prophecies that were written during that dispensation as part of the law being destroyed, as these were not the law of Moses at all. Just like Psalms and proverbs and so forth, these are not the Old Testament, they were written during that dispensation, but this does not make them part of that ceremonial law. Today we follow the New Testament and the new covenant, which are the Ten Commandments written in the heart, we also observe the gospel and the gospel of the kingdom, as Christians today, but we are forbidden to obey one Old Testament law as it will bring a curse upon Christians to obey all the O.T. Galatians 3:10 Therefore in conclusion, we understand the will of God today as follows, the gospel, the New Testament, the gospel of the kingdom and the new covenant. If you desire to learn the difference between any of these four categories which make up the will of God, please let me know and we can look into together. Stay blessed

Thank you for taking the time to write back, Dr. Lee. From what you've written, the Old Testament was an angelic creation, ordained by them, & not part of the given Law. I hope I've understood this correctly. However, when re-reading Acts 7:53 & Galatians 3:19, I see that in both verses, the Law is spoken of (not splitting it between the Decalogue & the 613 Laws, where one is the Law & the other, the Old Testament).

When we consider that the title, 'Old Testament' was the creation of a division because of the increased volume of books (NT) & for necessity's sake, done in the 2nd Century AD, we accept that the Old Testament was simply an identification & creation of a partition of what was a collection of biblical records pre-Christ from those post-Christ. Indeed, much of the Gospels should actually be placed in the OT for that reason. And the word "testament", which means 'a covenant, an agreement', would simply show that this older part of the Bible contained the five covenants made by God with His people & all that transpired from them. But I see that you understand this term, 'Old Testament', differently, & it's this aspect that intrigued me, & even after the references you gave, I still cannot see the meaning you shared (at least from the Scriptures), between the Old Covenant (singular, pertaining to the Mosaic) & the Old Testament (incorporating all the Covenants plus the prophecies & other writings).

Hi Chris; Whenever I refer unto the Old Testament I also call it the law of Moses, because he was the mediator between God and Israel, however; the old covenant simple means the Ten Commandments in stone as in Deuteronomy 5:2-3 & Hebrews 9:4 - Jer. 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-7 Genesis holds three covenants created before the Old Testament, Adam, Noah and Abraham all received a covenant, which was not the Old Testament. Then the angels created the Old Testament, Acts 7:53 & Galatians 3:19 During that dispensation, about 1,600 years or so, God gave the old covenant (Ten Commandments in stone) and the Davidical covenant, howbeit, neither of these were the Old Testament. It is generally speculated that the Old Testament has 613 laws, actually all of which should be in the book of Leviticus, meaning the O.T. specifically is only Leviticus, all other books before the New Testament are not the Old Testament, they are written during that dispensation, although some of them, like Exodus, numbers and Deuteronomy have some of the O.T. written within it. Therefore; you cannot put the four gospels in the Old Testament, as they do not contain any Old Testament laws, neither do they contain obedience to the old covenant, meaning the Ten Commandments in stone. The old covenant was magnified by the Lord Jesus Christ Isaiah 42:21 making it spiritual, harder to obey, and was written in the heart of all Christians Jer. 31:31-34 - Hebrews 8:6-13 & James 1:21 This n.c. sets us free from the o.c. as in Romans 8 for the law of life in Christ Jesus, has made me free from the law of sin and death. It should be noted that the Old Testament was destroyed by the death of Christ on Calvary as in Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 Knowing if we obey one commandment from that law we are cursed according to Gal. 3:10 and Deut. 27:26 Yet the old covenant was magnified, not destroyed, but fulfilled as in Matthew 5:17-18 although it had an expiry date, as in Luke 16:16 I hope this is clear.

Thank you for that extra information, Dr. Lee. I understand that you apply the term, Old Testament', to the other Laws, whereas we commonly refer to the OT as that part of the Bible that contains all the testaments/covenants with their applications, ramifications, & performance by the people. When you refer to Galatians 3:19, I read that it speaks of the Law, ordained (not created) by angels; for it's not in their power to create. And this Law has to include all the Law & not only the other Laws, as in Galatians 3:10-17.

It seems that it would be easier & more understandable to all if we spoke of the Law given as the Ten Commandments & the Other Laws. To introduce the wording: 'Old Testament' into this seems misleading as the Testament is the Covenant which must also include all the Laws applicable to it. And a Testament must of necessity include the death of the Testator to come into effect; to which the Old (Mosaic) Testament included the shedding of blood as dedication or consecration of that Promise ( Hebrews 9:16-22). Since God cannot die, it clearly looked ahead when He would do, in His Son, Who became the "Mediator of the New Testament" (the better Covenant: Hebrews 8:6). And the Old (Mosaic) Covenant simply being those Laws which God had given, to which both parties were to fully comply with (Deuteronomy chapter 28).

I realize that this is different to what you've stated, but as I've considered the Scriptures you've given, I can't see the need to differentiate the Old Covenant & the Old Testament in the way you suggest. Have you given it merely to create a difference between the two (sets) of Laws, or is there a specific Scripture you see to denote that the Old Testament applies to the other Laws?

Hi Chris; When we speak of the Old Testament, also known as the Mosaic Law, it specifically contained laws such as unclean animals, clean animals, feast days, new moons and different sabbaths. All of these are found in the book of Leviticus, which is the book of the law. To comprehend what the scriptures teach a thorough study should be applied indeed from all books on that doctrine, One huge difference between the Old Testament and the old covenant, is that Moses wrote the Old Testament by hand, while God wrote with his finger the old covenant. Exodus 31:18 These are different, while the one is called the ceremonial law, the other is called the moral law, they are not the same thing, neither can we join them together as one law. While the Old Testament was destroyed by the Lord Jesus on Calvary Eph. 2:14-16 & Colossians 2:14-15 the old covenant was fulfilled by Christ and then expired Mat. 5:18 & Loke 16:16 after being expired it was then dead Romans 7:4 & Romans 7:6 Meaning they both had different beginnings, and different commandments, and a different endings. One is called a Testament but the other is called a covenant, these do not have the same meaning, you cannot bring them together as one. Today I preached from 11 Timothy 2:15 part of the sermon was rightly dividing the word of truth, we must divide the Old Testament from the old covenant, we must also divide the Old Testament from the New Testament, and the old covenant from the new covenant. Today the New Testament has 7 categories, 1. least commandments, 2. doctrines, 3. unconditional promises, 4. conditional promises, 5. prophecy, 6. faith without works and 7. faith with works. On the other hand the new covenant only has two greatest commandments, love God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. This is why we must keep them separate, in order to rightly divide the word of truth, otherwise we do a great injustice to the truth of the word of God.

Hello again Dr. Lee. I think I might have understood the difference between the Old Covenant & the Old Testament. You wrote: "One huge difference between the Old Testament and the old covenant is that Moses wrote the Old Testament by hand, while God wrote with his finger the old covenant." The Old (Mosaic) Covenant being the Ten Commandments (which I understand & agree to), & the Old Testament being the Pentateuch (?) If this is the case, have those who divided the testaments to what we have now, erred, by placing the Pentateuch, the Prophets & the Writings under the nomenclature of the Old Testament? If so, then this is misleading.

Now when we consider the New Testament, you've written that the "New Testament has 7 categories." This to me seems like the New Testament must include all the Books from Matthew to Revelation as those categories you've detailed can be seen in most, if not all, of those books.

Then to the New Covenant. It "only has two great commandments". Can we not actually place these Covenantal Laws of both the Old & New (i.e. the Ten Commandments & the love God & neighbour commandment) under the actual Covenants made/given that command men to follow after? I tend to look at a Covenant as just that: a verbal declaration/pledge by one party to another. Therefore I see that the Mosaic (Old) Covenant (e.g. Deuteronomy 11:1-32) & the New Covenant (found variously in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:15; Romans 11:26,27), as the pledge, with the commandments (including the dictates of the Spirit in the believer), being our response to those Covenants. If we, post-Cross, fail to apprehend this & fail to earnestly seek to obey the Spirit, one could rightly question of what sort our salvation is & whether the promise of the Covenant was ever applied to our hearts. Thank you for your time again.

Hi Chris; I thank God that you have understood the Old Testament being different from the old covenant, as the differences between the two are many. You are very right about Christianity being mislead by Israel, as they have called Genesis to Deuteronomy the Torah and the Pentateuch, this is very wrong indeed for me as a Dr. of theology. One must realize that during the dispensation of the Old Testament only the book of Leviticus is the Torah, definitely not Genesis, as this book has three covenants found within it, Adamic, Noahic, Abramic, covenants. These three covenants have nothing to do with the Old Testament, also let us be clear in what we are saying when we speak of the major or minor prophets, these were written during the Old Testament dispensation, but they do not teach Old Testament laws or commandments on a whole, just as Psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes, have nothing to do with the Old Testament. For this reason, I teach that the Old Testament as being destroyed on Calvary, but from the books written during that dispensation many prophesies have yet to come to pass, we these are still considered the will of God for today. It is true, I teach the New Testament as being broken into seven categories, one must look for each category in every book from Matthew to Revelation. then you will discover only that the least commandments are about twelve hundred, the doctrines as hundreds, the unconditional promises over fifty, the conditional promises over 200, the many prophecies, as well as faith without works and faith with works. Learning these seven categories helps someone to comprehend the will of God for the New Testament, while the will of God for the new covenant is only two greatest commandments, love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, meaning spirit, soul and body, and love your neighbor as yourself. Understand I am speaking in part as I have not explained what the least commandments are or the hundreds of doctrines, just overview

Thank you again Dr. Lee. That certainly gives greater clarity to 'common phrases' that we use, that though those phrases might have simple meanings to the majority of us, there yet remains a clear reference & distinction to what God has given to Israel & us, so that we might understand its proper theological divisions when reading the Scriptures. I appreciate the time you've given to us on this aspect of the Word.

Hi Chris; I appreciate your sincerity and desire to learn about truth, this has motivated me ever since I can remember, therefore I try to understand how to rightly divide the scriptures according to the three commandments in 11 Timothy 2:15 If you desire further thoughts about this subject, I am sure we can go deeper yet into the Old Testament and the old covenant. Stay blessed

Dr. Kyle Lee I thought the Bible states in 2 Peter 1:21+22 that holy men of God spoke as they were moved by

the holy spirit. Everything was given by holy men of God or men that God ordained to write what he wanted

written. Where do angels fit into this? Gods angels or messengers are here to help people do what God wants

done. I.E. warn of danger sodom and gomorrah minister to Jesus christ bring messages of good tidings.

Dr. Lee There is a major difference between destroying the law or fulfilling and completing it to fulfill all

righteousness which was part of Gods plan nailing to His Cross as it states in Colossians 2: 8-21 especially

verse 14.

Hi Rick Mentzer;

After reading your comment I see you are confusing the Old Testament with the old covenant, these are not the same thing, the old covenant is the Ten Commandments in stone, the Lord Jesus fulfilled it, then he took it away as it had an expiry date Matthew 5:18, it would only last until he fulfilled it. Christ did fulfill it by the time of John the Baptist, therefore he gave the expiry date again Luke 16:16 But when we speak about the Old Testament it was destroyed on the cross, being nailed to the cross and abolished Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 not the old English word abolished means to destroy.

Dr. Lee What do you believe was the intent of the Law? Also what is known as the great commandment in

the law which always is true in practice?

Dr. Lee I said the law was completed which made available grace, it is written Grace And truth came With Christ!

Dr. Kyle Lee I understand what you are saying, that being stated this is the age of grace and if someone tithe its

from the heart not because you have to but because you want to. I won't criticise or judge because we are supposed

to walk in Gods Love Agapeo by example but again I understand you.

Hi Rick Mentzer;

It is true when you say today we give from the heart, but this is not the case when you are being told Malachi 3:8-10 God will curse you if you do not tithe. Why do people not understand that in Malachi, God wanted meat in his house, not money, as Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy all testify that tithing has nothing to do with money, it is always about fruits, vegetables and animals, and a man must eat his tithe with his wife, children, slaves, and a Levitical priest, once every year. The freedom you spoke of is an illusion for many who do not know the bible, that tithing was for Israel alone, and it was destroyed with all the other laws of Moses from the Old Testament. Now do I really care about tithing, no, I care about people not obeying one Old Testament law, otherwise they will be cursed to obey all the 613 laws from the Old Testament. Galatians 3:10 % Galatians 5:1-4

Hello all grace children in Jesus Christ. Now it is so that I have wondered about this and it was interesting to read everything, you all have shared. Just a little thought: When I was new on the road with Christ, I thought we should have had more delights in scripture not to get confused!

One day not so long ago we got a reference to Leviticus 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he knew it not, yet he is guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

So it helped little and "try" and follow a law. It was unfair and misleading.

Now we can rejoice that the world has moved forward! But we still have a responsibility as big as anything. Namely, the Kingdom of the Holy Spirit which gave words from this morning. Acts Chapter 5. Surely no one has overlooked Peter's words in the First Verses?

We believers have only righteousness and point out, for we can not, shall not lie to the Holy Spirit. Although it is something we understand and not everything has been shed light on yet. We will hopefully learn and understand piece and divided. Stay in The peace of God.

Blessed be all in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ.