The "Millennium" doctrine, that is taken from Rev. 20:1-6, is found nowhere else in the entire Bible. There is no confirmation of a 1,000 year period of time to come, nor any reference whatsoever to it anywhere outside of Revelation. Also, the concept is contradicted by many verses and passages elsewhere within Revelation itself.
It is all over the bible. The 1000 year period you speak of in ignorance is not a doctrine and it is referred to as "The Lord's day. That should help you if you are serious about gaining wisdom.
As promised I would respond to your reply when time permits.
You said Isaiah 65 "is not part of the Millennium doctrine, it is said to come after that time frame. The Millennium."
I have to disagree, here's why.
Isaiah 65:20 . There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
This can't be after the Millennium, Because after the Millennium there is a new heaven and new earth and there is no death in Heaven.
Revelation 21:1-3.
Revelation 21:4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Can't be the Millennium, people die in the Millennium.
Isaiah gives along with so many other scriptures gives us a picture of what is to come in the Millennium.
In Revelation 20. we see the Millennium and we see the final judgment of mankind and the weakness of the flesh displayed while under the perfect governing.
Isaiah 65:17. Gives us what's to come after the judgment.
Isaiah 65:18-25. reflects back on the Millennium.
These verses you mentioned in Mathew 24 and Isaiah 13 comes before the Millennium.
You mentioned Revelation 10:6. means time ended.
I believe Revelation 10:6. means there will be no more delay. It's a confirmation of the words Christ in his Olivet discourse.
You said The thousand years period is not mentioned nowhere in scripture but Revelation 20. But it's mentioned 6 times in Ch 20! It's pretty clear it's literal.
You said Revelation is symbolic.
The Amillennium view holds those views. I suppose the Devil is symbolically chained today in the midst of the 1000 years if so when will he be loosed or is he already loosed?
I don't have filters like you do and I am very thankful for people not like me. Although I have gained wisdom from the only source , you are better suited to chat with a newcoming skeptic like that.
Is there scripture outside Revelation that confirms an exact 1000 years? The answer is no. Are there false teachers out there? The answer is yes, there are many, 1 John 4:1. Are there scriptures that say the Son of God will reign on earth? The answer is yes. Psalm 2:6-9Psalm 22:27-31Isaiah 2:1-4Isaiah 9:6-7Isaiah 24:21-23Jeremiah 23:5Ezekiel 20:33-44Ezekiel 39:21-29Zechariah 2:10-13Zechariah 8:2-3Zechariah 14:1-9Matthew 19:28Revelation 11:15Revelation 20:4 and more.
Is there any scripture that says people will go to or reign in heaven? The answer is no. Are there scriptures that say the elect will reign with Jesus on earth? The answer is yes. Daniel 7:272 Timothy 2:11-13Revelation 5:10. Are there scriptures that describe how things change after Jesus returns? The answer is yes. Zechariah 8:4Isaiah 11Isaiah 60:15Isaiah 65:18-25. These people will be alive on the second coming of Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live longer if they choose to obey God.
Are there things that have not been revealed to us? The answer is, yes? Jesus will return and set up the kingdom here on earth and He will put all enemies under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25. Will death still be during the time Jesus is ruling? The answer is yes. The purpose is to fulfill the rest of the scriptures with Jesus, Israel, the Gentiles, and creation that has not yet been fulfilled.
The only scripture that gives us 1000 years is Revelation, but many scriptures tell us the kingdom will be set up on earth. We have these, Numbers 14:21Psalms 115:16Micah 4:1-3Matthew 5:5Matthew 6:10. Not to debate, with the time it will take I cannot say the 1000 years are false.
Yep, Jesus has been reigning since God placed His name above all and put all under Him, and will reign here on earth after His second coming until all enemies are under His feet, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death", Revelation 20:14. Some say it will not be on earth because when Jesus first came He told Pilate His kingdom is not of this world, John 18:36. And He is now sitting on His throne and we are in the kingdom now, Colossians 1:13.
When Jesus first came it was spiritual, for those who entered the kingdom their names were written in the book. When Jesus comes again, His second coming will be physical, it says we will ever be with the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:17. We see in Revelation when Satan is released, they surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, we should understand Jesus would also be there Revelation 20:9. When Jesus returns, He does not go back up He stays until all is fulfilled.
May I suggest a King James Bible, with a strongs concordance,.. or maybe the companion Bible, but please be careful on what you purchase,. There's a lot of false copy's and scribes, obviously sent by the dragon an his followers,.. I can assure you, there's a millennium, but you shouldn't listen to me , or any other person, Jerimiah chapter 17 until you ask your Heavenly Father,. Proverbs chapter 1 James chapter 5 ,..
King James and Strong's is all I use. Been studying scripture, cover to cover, for well over a decade. Jer. 17 speaks of the Sabbath. You are claiming that is speaking of a thousand year period instead of the 7th Day Sabbath which is what the Bible is referring to there. There is no mention anywhere there of a 1,000 year period. By default, you are claiming that the days of Creation were thousand year periods as well which is not Biblical. Each day statement ends with the word day, regardless of the 'evening and morning' comment. ... the first Day, ... the second Day, etc. Not 1,000 year periods of time. Leviticus 23:32 makes plain what God intended to convey with the Creation week account. The Sabbath was taken from than account ( Gen. 2:2-3) and the Lev. verse tells us it is one 24 hr day.
Proverbs 1 says nothing about a 1,000 year period.
James 5, as well, says nothing at all about a 1,000 yr period of time. The only possible reference there is to the return of Christ and maybe the Wrath of God. Neither of which contain a 1,000 yr period of time. Matthew 24:29-31 presents the one and only return of Jesus and details many of the beginnings of the destruction of the earth at that very time. Millennium doctrine does not allow for destruction of the earth until after the 1,000 years. It is not supported by scripture anywhere outside of Rev. 20:1-7 which is symbolic or takes place in the spirit, not literal/physical. Isaiah 13:9-11 supports the same as Mt. 24:29-31.
2 Tim. 2 does not mention any 1,000 yr period of time. There is no support of the Mil. The only verse that could come close is 2:12 about 'reigning with Him.' That is not a reference to a Mil. time period, it is a reference to 1 Cor. 6:17 - our spirit being joined to the Lord at this very moment if we are 'IN' Christ
Please post 'specific' verses or passages if you wish to continue so that we can get right down to Hebrew/Greek 'word meanings' if necessary. Posting entire chapters is a waste of time.
Between your post and mine, what I stated was very matter of fact and impersonal. Yours was defensive. I certainly didn't call you out personally and if what I posted was perceived as a threat to you, you did not have to reply.
The Isaiah passage you quoted was very long and general. It does mention the New Heaven and New Earth, though. That is not part of the Millennium doctrine, it is said to come after that time frame. The Millennium doctrine claims that the earth will remain as is for the 1,000 year period and not be destroyed, or made new, until after that time period. Also, New Heaven and New Earth can imply a heavenly/spiritual time, which supports my position that the Millennium is not supported by any scripture outside of Revelation.
In the Rev. 20 passage, thrones are mentioned as well as souls of the beheaded. This strongly implies a heavenly/spiritual dimension, not physical. Beheaded souls cannot be alive in the physical. The mention of thrones echoes Daniel 7:9 which speaks of a heavenly/spiritual realm of existence where the Ancient of Days is upon the throne.
Revelation is highly symbolic and non-literal, even the intro says so. John himself states that he was "in the spirit" on three, or more, occasions. There are some things in Revelation that are backed by multiple other scriptures outside of the book itself, but the Millennium reign has no support at all. The rest of scripture makes the case clearly that Jesus will return, gather His people and the Wrath of God destruction, and wiping out of sinners, will ensue. It is then that the New Heaven and New Earth will begin. Not a thousand years after, and not before the Wrath of God destruction and final judgment of all sinners.
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11
Revelation 10 describes all time ending, long before Revelation 20 - which tells us we cannot take Revelation literally or in a linear perception.
I will have to address the other contradictions in my next post. No more characters allowed
We welcome you to this forum. Good to have your input.
While I do not wish to comment on the millenium doctrine you are speaking to in your post, I just wish to add this:
For me, I agree that much of Revelation is allegorical, reflecting truths that can be found in prophecy elsewhere in the Scriptures. Some of the truths of Revelation may become more easily understood as the time for these things to happen draw very near. I, myself, don't speak much about these things, because I am not very scholarly on this portion of Scripture yet. So I prefer to learn from others. I am trusting that God will help believers endure through any hardship that comes our way, even the end time persecution and martyrdom of myriads of believers. I do think that believers need to wake up a bit from being lulled by the ease of life in many developed nations. We need to gird up our loins, be strong in the Lord and prepare ourselves to face these things, because I believe we are headed in that direction across the world. So, instead of doing the "name it, claim it, prosperity stuff" I choose to live simply and pray for the Lord to lead me through the years ahead. This said, I am 65y ears old and recently retired. I have lived most of life already. I am looking forward to eternity. My attitude may be different than those who still have their whole life ahead of them with young families, etc. For me, I may have 20-25 years left to live unless the Lord returns before then. Or I may be die sooner than either of these time frames. So, I am looking for Christ's return eagerly. We are called to live upright and godly lives in this wicked age in anticipation of Christ's return. I wish to live this way. Don't want to be ashamed at His appearing.
Sola Scrip-I am looking forward to hearing more from you. Again, welcome.
Thank you, GiGi. I think I agree with all of what you said and I'm not that far behind you in years. Done with the vast majority of nonsense in life and ready to be dedicated to the Lord, and the defense of His Word, for the remainder of my days.
What that will actually be like for you or me is really in the Lord's hands as to our sphere of influence and opportunities to disciple others. For me, my focus is really our three sons, now in their thirties, who all tuned from the faith in their late teens. I am persevering in prayer for them, hoping for opportunities to share about Jesus, asking for God to send people to them who will share about Jesus, bring them wives that will love the Lord and help my sons return to the Lord.
I am pretty much staying at home since the pandemic began because of health factors which can make a covid infection very harmful to me. I am being cautious. Glad that I can be home to enable me to avoid gathering with people. My husband works from home, so I have company during the day at intervals. We get together as a family a few times a month. I see a few friends who have had covid or been vaccinated like me. I do trust the Lord in all of this. But just like I avoid other triggers for my asthma, I can avoid exposure to respiratory viruses now that I am not working and around people who can infect me. I haven't faired well with flu and cold viruses, so I know to be wise in this time. We pack a lunch and go on long drives, stop to eat at a scenic beach or park and then head back home. That works for me. haven't gone stir crazy yet!
But being off work has allowed me more than ever to digest God's Word and I am so glad to find it online. This website has been helpful to me. I have been here just a few months. Have a good evening. We will most likely interact more over time. Thank you for your reply.
No offense taken. Just wanted to be clear that I was here for a no-nonsense, impersonal, discussion of the facts of The Word.
I pray that you will look into some of what I presented. It is very important for Christians to see through all of the false doctrine that is being foisted upon us from every side these days.
As promised I would respond to your reply when time permits.
You said Isaiah 65 "is not part of the Millennium doctrine, it is said to come after that time frame. The Millennium."
I have to disagree, here's why.
Isaiah 65:20 . There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
This can't be after the Millennium, Because after the Millennium there is a new heaven and new earth and there is no death in Heaven.
Revelation 21:1-3.
Revelation 21:4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Can't be the Millennium, people die in the Millennium.
Isaiah gives along with so many other scriptures gives us a picture of what is to come in the Millennium.
In Revelation 20. we see the Millennium and we see the final judgment of mankind and the weakness of the flesh displayed while under the perfect governing.
Isaiah 65:17. Gives us what's to come after the judgment.
Isaiah 65:18-25. reflects back on the Millennium.
These verses you mentioned in Mathew 24 and Isaiah 13 comes before the Millennium.
You mentioned Revelation 10:6. means time ended.
I believe Revelation 10:6. means there will be no more delay. It's a confirmation of the words Christ in his Olivet discourse.
You said The thousand years period is not mentioned nowhere in scripture but Revelation 20. But it's mentioned 6 times in Ch 20! It's pretty clear it's literal.
You said Revelation is symbolic.
The Amillennium view holds those views. I suppose the Devil is symbolically chained today in the midst of the 1000 years if so when will he be loosed or is he already loosed?
I will share more at a later date.
God bless you.
I have grown by the examples of others on this site.
I'm a work in progress!
It's heart breaking to see the things that has crept into the Church.
I believe all false doctrine is inspired by Satan himself, So I try to look past the person and deal with the doctrine they're presenting.
I believe that is when
Ephesians 6:10-18. is applied.
I sometimes want to know a persons take on salvation. Perhaps I can get an Idea of who's inspiring them.
But we have to be careful not to entertain it further than need be.
God bless.
Thanks and God bless.
Is there scripture outside Revelation that confirms an exact 1000 years? The answer is no. Are there false teachers out there? The answer is yes, there are many, 1 John 4:1. Are there scriptures that say the Son of God will reign on earth? The answer is yes. Psalm 2:6-9 Psalm 22:27-31 Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 9:6-7 Isaiah 24:21-23 Jeremiah 23:5 Ezekiel 20:33-44 Ezekiel 39:21-29 Zechariah 2:10-13 Zechariah 8:2-3 Zechariah 14:1-9 Matthew 19:28 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 20:4 and more.
Is there any scripture that says people will go to or reign in heaven? The answer is no. Are there scriptures that say the elect will reign with Jesus on earth? The answer is yes. Daniel 7:27 2 Timothy 2:11-13 Revelation 5:10. Are there scriptures that describe how things change after Jesus returns? The answer is yes. Zechariah 8:4 Isaiah 11 Isaiah 60:15 Isaiah 65:18-25. These people will be alive on the second coming of Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live longer if they choose to obey God.
Are there things that have not been revealed to us? The answer is, yes? Jesus will return and set up the kingdom here on earth and He will put all enemies under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25. Will death still be during the time Jesus is ruling? The answer is yes. The purpose is to fulfill the rest of the scriptures with Jesus, Israel, the Gentiles, and creation that has not yet been fulfilled.
The only scripture that gives us 1000 years is Revelation, but many scriptures tell us the kingdom will be set up on earth. We have these, Numbers 14:21 Psalms 115:16 Micah 4:1-3 Matthew 5:5 Matthew 6:10. Not to debate, with the time it will take I cannot say the 1000 years are false.
God bless,
RLW
Good explanation. I went and re-read the Rev. passages and it says Jesus will reign on earth 1000 years.
And I believe that, since He reigns eternally with the Father and Spirit, so this verse is not speaking about a 1000 year reign in heaven.
Yep, Jesus has been reigning since God placed His name above all and put all under Him, and will reign here on earth after His second coming until all enemies are under His feet, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death", Revelation 20:14. Some say it will not be on earth because when Jesus first came He told Pilate His kingdom is not of this world, John 18:36. And He is now sitting on His throne and we are in the kingdom now, Colossians 1:13.
When Jesus first came it was spiritual, for those who entered the kingdom their names were written in the book. When Jesus comes again, His second coming will be physical, it says we will ever be with the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:17. We see in Revelation when Satan is released, they surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, we should understand Jesus would also be there Revelation 20:9. When Jesus returns, He does not go back up He stays until all is fulfilled.
God bless,
RLW
Also 2nd Timothy chapter 2
Peace
Proverbs 1 says nothing about a 1,000 year period.
James 5, as well, says nothing at all about a 1,000 yr period of time. The only possible reference there is to the return of Christ and maybe the Wrath of God. Neither of which contain a 1,000 yr period of time. Matthew 24:29-31 presents the one and only return of Jesus and details many of the beginnings of the destruction of the earth at that very time. Millennium doctrine does not allow for destruction of the earth until after the 1,000 years. It is not supported by scripture anywhere outside of Rev. 20:1-7 which is symbolic or takes place in the spirit, not literal/physical. Isaiah 13:9-11 supports the same as Mt. 24:29-31.
2 Tim. 2 does not mention any 1,000 yr period of time. There is no support of the Mil. The only verse that could come close is 2:12 about 'reigning with Him.' That is not a reference to a Mil. time period, it is a reference to 1 Cor. 6:17 - our spirit being joined to the Lord at this very moment if we are 'IN' Christ
Please post 'specific' verses or passages if you wish to continue so that we can get right down to Hebrew/Greek 'word meanings' if necessary. Posting entire chapters is a waste of time.
Be more specific with specific verses instead of entire general chapters if you wish to continue discussing please.
Thank you.
How about before we accept you invite to what seems to be an debate how about you give us your take on these verses.
Isaiah 65:14-25.
Revelation 20:4-8.
And the contradictions you mentioned. And then we peacefully engage.
God bless.
And thanks in advance.
The Isaiah passage you quoted was very long and general. It does mention the New Heaven and New Earth, though. That is not part of the Millennium doctrine, it is said to come after that time frame. The Millennium doctrine claims that the earth will remain as is for the 1,000 year period and not be destroyed, or made new, until after that time period. Also, New Heaven and New Earth can imply a heavenly/spiritual time, which supports my position that the Millennium is not supported by any scripture outside of Revelation.
In the Rev. 20 passage, thrones are mentioned as well as souls of the beheaded. This strongly implies a heavenly/spiritual dimension, not physical. Beheaded souls cannot be alive in the physical. The mention of thrones echoes Daniel 7:9 which speaks of a heavenly/spiritual realm of existence where the Ancient of Days is upon the throne.
Revelation is highly symbolic and non-literal, even the intro says so. John himself states that he was "in the spirit" on three, or more, occasions. There are some things in Revelation that are backed by multiple other scriptures outside of the book itself, but the Millennium reign has no support at all. The rest of scripture makes the case clearly that Jesus will return, gather His people and the Wrath of God destruction, and wiping out of sinners, will ensue. It is then that the New Heaven and New Earth will begin. Not a thousand years after, and not before the Wrath of God destruction and final judgment of all sinners.
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11
Revelation 10 describes all time ending, long before Revelation 20 - which tells us we cannot take Revelation literally or in a linear perception.
I will have to address the other contradictions in my next post. No more characters allowed
We welcome you to this forum. Good to have your input.
While I do not wish to comment on the millenium doctrine you are speaking to in your post, I just wish to add this:
For me, I agree that much of Revelation is allegorical, reflecting truths that can be found in prophecy elsewhere in the Scriptures. Some of the truths of Revelation may become more easily understood as the time for these things to happen draw very near. I, myself, don't speak much about these things, because I am not very scholarly on this portion of Scripture yet. So I prefer to learn from others. I am trusting that God will help believers endure through any hardship that comes our way, even the end time persecution and martyrdom of myriads of believers. I do think that believers need to wake up a bit from being lulled by the ease of life in many developed nations. We need to gird up our loins, be strong in the Lord and prepare ourselves to face these things, because I believe we are headed in that direction across the world. So, instead of doing the "name it, claim it, prosperity stuff" I choose to live simply and pray for the Lord to lead me through the years ahead. This said, I am 65y ears old and recently retired. I have lived most of life already. I am looking forward to eternity. My attitude may be different than those who still have their whole life ahead of them with young families, etc. For me, I may have 20-25 years left to live unless the Lord returns before then. Or I may be die sooner than either of these time frames. So, I am looking for Christ's return eagerly. We are called to live upright and godly lives in this wicked age in anticipation of Christ's return. I wish to live this way. Don't want to be ashamed at His appearing.
Sola Scrip-I am looking forward to hearing more from you. Again, welcome.
God bless.
What that will actually be like for you or me is really in the Lord's hands as to our sphere of influence and opportunities to disciple others. For me, my focus is really our three sons, now in their thirties, who all tuned from the faith in their late teens. I am persevering in prayer for them, hoping for opportunities to share about Jesus, asking for God to send people to them who will share about Jesus, bring them wives that will love the Lord and help my sons return to the Lord.
I am pretty much staying at home since the pandemic began because of health factors which can make a covid infection very harmful to me. I am being cautious. Glad that I can be home to enable me to avoid gathering with people. My husband works from home, so I have company during the day at intervals. We get together as a family a few times a month. I see a few friends who have had covid or been vaccinated like me. I do trust the Lord in all of this. But just like I avoid other triggers for my asthma, I can avoid exposure to respiratory viruses now that I am not working and around people who can infect me. I haven't faired well with flu and cold viruses, so I know to be wise in this time. We pack a lunch and go on long drives, stop to eat at a scenic beach or park and then head back home. That works for me. haven't gone stir crazy yet!
But being off work has allowed me more than ever to digest God's Word and I am so glad to find it online. This website has been helpful to me. I have been here just a few months. Have a good evening. We will most likely interact more over time. Thank you for your reply.
Thanks for you view.
God bless.
I pray that you will look into some of what I presented. It is very important for Christians to see through all of the false doctrine that is being foisted upon us from every side these days.
Acts 20:28-31
God bless.
Christian blessings!
Good to see you back on the board. Blessings to you tonight!
I take the Millenium to be literal
I'm sure some will be happy to discuss this topic, And by the way, great topic! I also will join in later.
Enjoying the grand kids at the moment.
God bless.
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