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BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 182760

Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Kim Norvell - 2 years ago
    Since God's holy Sabbath day is on a Saturday and we are to honor God's Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment is it wrong for us to be going to church on Sunday shouldn't we be going to church on Saturday
  • Apostolic Evangelist - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Child of God it is wrong to go to church on the Sabbath as Christ has died on the Friday and rose up on the Sunday. That is why on Friday Night fall the Sabbath starts and on Night fall on Saturday it ends......

    Sunday is the day to go to Church...Christ Yeshua has risen. You may praise God every day and worship God every day do your prayer everyday But you Rest with God on Saturday....You do not buy nor sell on this day. If you need to heal a man on Sabbath that to is ok.

    God bless you
  • RichFairhurst - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Sunday is the day the Church meets for worship is first shown by Sunday being the day Christ rose from the dead and first revealed himself as risen only to the those who would later receive the Holy Spirit as the promise from the Father sent in the name of the Son. It is second shown by the fact that the Holy Spirit was distributed to the members of the Church (the members of Christ's body) as tongues like fire and manifested through the gift of tongues by all those gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentacost, which always occurs on a Sunday according to the Law.

    If you trust in the resurrection of Christ and the promised gift of the Holy Spirit both given to us on Sunday by the Father as the only basis for your being an adopted son and heir of the Father you will gather in honor of that on Sunday.

    Comparing the glory of the Covenant of the Law instituted by the blood of sacrificed animals to the glory of the New Covenant in Christ's blood is like comparing the glory of the moon to the glory of the sun. The moon has its glory to rule the night, but that glory derives its light from the sun hidden by the shadow of the earth and is only outward on its surface. The moon's light shines and fades in a cycle depending on how it is positioned relative to the sun and the earth. The glory of the moon in the night must give way when the glory of the sun rises and shines its light to rule the day. The sun's light shines from within in itself in continuous daylight and never falls into the darkness of night. As long as the face of the earth is turned towards the sun, all who walk in its light walk in the day. Saying that a Christian is under the law and the promise of the Spirit at the same time is like saying we should walk under a Solar eclipse in the moon's shadow and not walk in the full light of day.

    The glory of God revealed as the Father. Son and Holy Spirit to those who walk by faith far surpasses the glory of both the sun and the moon He created.
  • Apostolic Evangelist - In Reply - 2 years ago
    The falling away has began the Antichrist is a movement that represents them selves as a House of God.

    ACTS 17:24 God who made the world and everything in it since He is Lord of heaven and Earth Does Not dwell in Temples made with Hands.

    Nor is He worshiped with Men's hands as though he needed anything since he gives to all life, breath and all things.

    These churches are your Hillsong etc. Born again Christian churches where one is told that Gods laws are No longer biding. That Jesus is the Sabbath and that you no longer need to keep the 4th Commandment for Jesus came to fulfil the laws.

    This is the falling away......

    For it clear in MATT 5:17

    Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Many Christians are so heaverly indoctrinated by a mans understanding of scripture and when they come across someone trying to tell them something new that their church did not teach they shut themselves off to the information little do they know that God has sent you this person to correct your knowledge, and the child that has itchy ears starts to listen to this information and goes to seek the truth.....this is why the Apostle Paul called it Itchy ears, for the Holy Spirit guides you to listen to whats been said for you to go and seek the Truth. Follow No Man Christ said. Follow Me. No man should teach you scripture A Bible should be read when you are alone with God and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you....Meditate on One scripture at a time let it sit in your head for a couple of days and when God sees you trying so hard to work it out he sends the Holy Spirit to help you.

    God bless you Kim.

    God bless you Kim
  • SolaScrip - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Kim.

    It's not so big a deal to go to church on Sunday as it is to neglect to worship on the Sabbath Saturday, as God Commanded those who love Him in the 4th Commandment.

    And the 10 Commandments are not at all difficult to keep, as many Christians have been brainwashed to believe.

    The biggest issue they have is with the 4th Commandment - The Sabbath. Which is also very easy to keep once you make up your mind to follow God and His Ways. Jesus kept all the Commandments. John 15:10 We are to walk (live) as Jesus walked (lived.) 1 John 2:6. Even Paul is recorded in scripture as keeping all the 10 Commandments. Acts 21:24 All of Jesus' disciples kept the Sabbath Commandment immediately after His crucifixion - which speaks volumes. Luke 23:54-56

    The 10 Commandments

    1. Only worship God

    2. Don't worship demons (idols)

    3. Don't take God's Name in vain

    4. Observe the 7th Day Sabbath

    5. Honor parents

    6. Don't murder

    7. No adultery

    8. Don't steal

    9. Don't lie

    10. Don't covet

    Where exactly is the difficulty in keeping those? The first 4 teach us exactly how to love God. The last 6 teach us how to love mankind.

    The Sabbath, as well as the 10 Commandments, were given to everybody.

    Read the dramatic account in Exodus of God speaking the 10 Commandments ALOUD to the world in the presence of the Israelites and you will be convinced of their significance to all who worship God Almighty. His voice was so booming and terrifying that the people begged Moses to ask God not to speak aloud anymore. God SPOKE our world into existence; God SPOKE the Commandments into existence. Exodus chapter 19 through 20.

    "My covenant will I NOT BREAK, nor ALTER the thing that has come out of My lips."

    Psalm 89:34
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank you, Sola Scrip,

    Well said. We who have the Spirit and God's overabounding grace can follow these commands better than those who do not believe, as they do not have the power from the Spirit or of grace to strengthen them and allow them to be determined to say "no" to sin and "yes" to what is good and right like we do.

    However, because we still have a sinful nature, we can never keep the commandments perfectly like Jesus did. He did not have a sinful nature and always chose to God's will. We are not like that by a long shot. Even so, we are called to live godly lives and we can do this with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and the love of God filling us to overflowing. We are to be Christ's witnesses by telling of Him AND by living by the Spirit, fulfilling the law of godliness He teaches us and enables us to obey.
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Kim,

    You can go to church anytime. The Sabbath Day has always been the last day of the week - Saturday.

    God gave us the Sabbath Day to rest our bodies and minds. We should also use the day to give thanks to our creator, and help others as Jesus showed us how to observe this day. God did not just give his Sabbath Day commandment to Israel - it was made for man - please see scripture below:

    Mark 2:27

    "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

    Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man! All mankind!

    God gave us the 10 commandments including the 4th to help us live our lives in a law abiding manner. His commandments are good and just!

    Those that say we can ignore God's Commandments are ignoring much bible scripture, including all the commands from Jesus/God.

    Read and believe!
  • Apostolic Evangelist - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Sorry dear brother but I will disagree on "You can go to church any day. The Sabbath Saturday is a day of rest. Remember Christ died on Friday and rose up on Sunday So Friday night fall is when the Sabbath starts and Saturday night fall When the Sabbath Ends that is why we go to Church on Sunday.

    You may heal on a Saturday if need to save a life on that day....But Not going to Church please be careful what teachings you give to the children of God. For everything you say and do is written in your book of life and will be used against us all at our judgement day....Please Do Not teach if you have Not been called dear child.

    God bless
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Apostolic Evangelist,

    Thank you for your response and input.

    You stated: "When the Sabbath Ends that is why we go to Church on Sunday."

    Jesus regularly went to teach, fellowship, and heal in the synagogue/church on Saturday - the Sabbath Day.

    Luke 4:16

    "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

    Jesus set examples like the above, for us to follow. Why would we not follow Jesus lead on this, and worship and help others on Saturday/Sabbath Day as He did?

    Also, I said, and I do believe that I am correct; that we can go to church at anytime, on any day. But, if you believe I am in error, on any of the above, please provide me with scripture to the contrary, and I will review, and change if I am wrong.

    God Bless
  • Apostolic Evangelist - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dearest Brother Remember One very important thing here

    John 5:39 You search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and these are they which testify of Me, But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.???

    We are in Spirit with Christ Not flesh, it is the Spirit that guides you to the Truth Not a Man called preacher or a building called church. The Spirit is free outside.

    We are Not Christ Yeshua for he was perfect.

    I heal on the Sabbath if God sends me to do his will.

    Now you gave me LUKE 4:18 let me show you.

    The Spirit of he Lord is upon Me

    because He Has ANOINTED ME.

    To preach the gospel to the poor

    He has sent Me to Heal the brokenhearted etc

    Can you see ANOINTED ME who is Anointed dear brother do you think every church in the World has this Anointed pastor or priest.

    NO we are the Church You and Me and if you have been Anointed you will know because we hear the Father speak to our hearts and we go where he tells us to go.

    If we teach or Heal on the Sabbath its because he has asked us to.

    99.9% of building called church has NO Anointed Man nor Women dear Brother. This why our Father calls you out of them.

    Gods servants walk with God outside and touch people in secret. We are NOT Christ for thousand to follow us NO

    We find you in secret dear Brother....God shows us where you are. You are called the Little Church and his little flock does Not sit in a Building made with hands. ACT 17:24 God Dose NOT dwell in a Temple made with hands.

    JOHN 14:17 The Spirit of Truth whom the world CANNOT receive because it neither sees Him nor Knows Him but you know Him for He dwells with you and will be in You. Now if any of you had this Spirit of Truth you would not be questioning the Sabbath Day Saturday for you would know not to be sitting a church on the Sabbath for some pastor to be teaching a Child of God.

    Get out of the Building come and Sit with your Heavenly Father God on the Sabbath and feel HIM.God bless you
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    My question is this.

    Scripturally, what constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy? Is it the requirements in the OT law? Is it setting a day aside for complete rest from work? Is it setting apart the Lord God in our hearts and always being ready to give a defense to everyone who asks us a reason for the hope that in us...(see 1Peter 3:15)? Is it giving time each day for prayer and study of the Bible?

    I ask these because I know many people will give various answers to my question about what constitutes keeping the Sabbath. I have not seen any instructions in the NT about how believers are to keep the Sabbath holy. I want to be obedient to God's ways, but perhaps this is a matter of keeping the spirit of the law and not the letter.
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi GIGI

    Regarding the Sabbath scripturally, this is directly from God.

    Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    I understand what you have shared, that many people interpret the Sabbath in various ways. Some don't even try to remember it or follow it at all.

    Personally, I regard it as a very important day to observe. More important than any other day of the week. It is a command from God, and one of the great commandment's. He gave it to man as a gift. It should not be a hinderance. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

    God want's us to rest one day a week. He also wants us to give others a day of rest. Look how crazy this non-stop world goes 24/7/365 days a year.

    I observe Saturday's. If other's occupations require them to work on Saturday, I'm sure God would understand if they observe another day. I think the key is to observe the Sabbath and rest. Jesus also instructed that we can help others in need on the Sabbath, we can go to church or fellowship, like Jesus did visiting the synagogues, spend time with family, quite time to meditate, pray, and give thanks. Go to Hospitals to visit others, help feed others in the food pantry etc. etc. It is a day to take a break from your regular work, this is not a day to make money or try to get yourself ahead. This is a day that will hopefully bring us closer to God!

    I look forward to Saturday's just for these vary reasons, it's a wonderful gift to me!

    God Bless.

    God Bless
  • Charrisse Thompson - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Blessings Bro dan

    I also observe Sabbath on Saturdays. Luke 4:16 as provided in one of your replies is also advising when the Lord's Day is. As for those who worship on Sundays, I feel they had been lead to believe a false belief that Sunday is the Lords Day. I have come by this false belief through bible study and reading the Lords Word KJV as well as other material. National Sunday Law by A Jan Marcussen is a read many people of FAITH should take the time to read. It will explain "Who, How and When" the Sabbath was changed to a Sunday. It is not a secret and you are able to refer to what is written to the Lords Word and writings/ Bibliography. it is a constitution from Emperor Constantine who introduced Sunday Worship as Law in 321 A.D, is the earliest recognition of Sunday as a legal duty. Here are a couple of the references you can go to. The Latin original is in the Codes Justinian (Codes of Justinian), lib 3, title 12, lex. 3, Philip Schaff's, History of the Christian Church, Vol 3 3d period, chapter 7, sec 75 pg 380, footnote 1. The last days is near and there are so many Christians who have been mislead and given false scriptures and teachings that it breaks my heart and also our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Daniel 7:25

    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Ezekiel 20:12,

    Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

    Ezekiel 20:16

    Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

    Happy Sabbath
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Sister Charrisse,

    Thanks for your great post today, Saturday, the Holy Sabbath Day. It's so nice to hear that you observe God's Sabbath Day.

    I also believe that Christians can go to church/worship any day of the week, or everyday if they desire. We can fellowship/worship in a house, on line, in a parking lot, in a park, or anywhere where 2 or more meet to praise God Jesus tells us: Matthew 18:20

    "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

    Back to the Sabbath. I observe the Sabbath on Saturday, and I truly believe it is a great gift from God to mankind! There are so many wonderful blessings that we can receive by honoring and keeping Holy this day. I've listed below many great reasons to help encourage others.

    1. God commands us to keep the Sabbath

    2. The Holy Sabbath is God's sign to His People

    3. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath

    4. Jesus Kept the Sabbath

    5. We should obey God rather than men

    6. The apostles and the first century church kept the Sabbath

    7. The Sabbath reminds us of who our creator is

    8. The Sabbath provides us with mental and physical rest

    9. The Sabbath helps to deepen our faith

    10. The Sabbath strengthens our relationships, with family, and brethren

    11. The Sabbath brings us closer to God

    12. The Sabbath provides dedicated time to draw closer to God.

    13. The Sabbath provides us additional blessings from God

    14. When we observe the Sabbath we also let our working animals rest on this day

    15. The Sabbath reminds us to help others

    16. The Sabbath reminds us to not be a part of this world!

    17. When we observe the Sabbath we show God that we are submissive and obedient to HIM.

    18. We observe the Sabbath because we LOVE Jesus/God!

    The Holy Sabbath Day is a wonderful gift from God to us. Even Jesus tells us he is the Lord of the Sabbath. He wouldn't want to be Lord of something that is not good!

    Happy Sabbath Day, and God Bless!
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hello Charrisse. If I may add for those here who might be unaware of this author whom you promote: A. Jan Marcussen is a Seventh Day Adventist Minister who is best known for his 1983 book "National Sunday Law". This book has been described as a "condensed version" of Ellen G. White's view in "The Great Controversy". And most of us should have heard of of E.G. White.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Chris, thanks for the info. I am one who does not know of Ellen G. White. But I looked her up and now I know she is co-founder of the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. So, there are most likely many others on this site who did not know either.
  • Donna - In Reply - 2 years ago
    My heart longs for this special day with God. I am feeling led to keep this day holy to the Lord. I'm not perfect at it yet. Nobody I know does it. But when I have set the Sabbath day apart and just stayed home and worshipped and rested in the Lord...I got so blessed! It was like the best church service ever, in my soul, right at home, on my couch! That's the only way I can explain it.:-)). Everyone has to work out their own salvation.
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Donna,

    Amen. Thanks for sharing your experience with the Sabbath Day. I'm very happy to hear that you feel so good about following God's command to set 1 day aside to rest, pray, spend quality time with family, and all of the other things available to us on this day to regenerate your Spirit, and feel good about following God's loving commands.

    God's Commandments are all good and just, and the Sabbath is such a wonderful gift. Once we begin to experience it, like you and I have, it becomes a habit, that is truly good for us, and comes with ongoing blessings that help to draw us closer to God.

    God Bless.
  • Totoo G - In Reply - 2 years ago
    That is a very good question, but as much as i remember, while the Lord was still alive and ministering, He said the Sabbath was for the man and not man for the Sabbath, and that the Father is always working, even on the Sabbath.

    The point of Sabbath, in my humble opinion, is not which day of the week, but one day of the week, whichever you can, pray and meditate on the Word of the Lord and nothing much else. Not even cook dinner! A whole day of prayers and meditation on the Word of the Lord.

    I would also like to add that, the Commandment you mentioned is in the Old Testament, and it does not apply to Christians, we have two, 1st: Love the Lord your God as you love yourself and 2nd: Love your neighbour as you love yourself. And your neighbour is anyone you see!

    May the Lord Jesus Christ bless your heart and thanks for your wonderful question.

    Totoo
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    ToToo G,

    Jesus says that all of the law (Ten Commandments) hang on those two commandments that you are refrencing.

    Matthew 22:40

    "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

    Jesus/God wants you to try keep all of his commandments.

    John 14:15

    "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

    Jesus tells us if we want to enter into heaven we will keep his commandments.

    Revelation 22:14

    "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

    Read and Believe!
  • SolaScrip - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Yes, Bro Dan, and we are to live as Jesus lived. 1 John 2:6

    Jesus kept ALL of the 10 Commandments. John 15:10

    We are to strive to do the same. If we have the Holy Spirit, it is not a burden at all; as you said, and provided scripture, we do it because we love Jesus.

    The 10 Commandments are not at all difficult to keep and James 3:2 has our back when we stumble.
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear SolaScrip,

    Amen. I can see you are well versed in God's scripture, and the great power of His Holy Spirit. Thanks for the encouragement and sharing of scripture here!

    Hope you can stay around, many people read these postings, and can surely profit from the way you shine a powerful and bright truthful light on the scripture.

    God Bless.
  • Totoo G - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank you
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Kim

    The sabbath day was given to Israel,

    not the Church.

    If one desire to keep the law he can't just keep the 4th commandment, he must keep the whole law "perfectly" ALL HIS LIFE!

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

    James 2:10-11.

    We are to rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross. "Meaning he paid the penalty for us and everyone who cannot and never could keep the law. And that's everyone, even Moses.

    Colossians 2:15-17. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    If you believe the sabbath is for the Church and you go to service on the sabbath you probably would somehow do something to break the sabbath.

    I believe the first man stoned to death was because he gathered sticks, Probably to kindle a fire.

    see here:

    Num. 15:32-35. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

    And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

    And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

    And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

    Keeping the law imperfectly is "still" a death sentence.

    God bless.
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I'm not totally clear on this, but it sounds like some are making a case to disobey God, as if it's 'bad' to obey, because maybe some assume that 'works' are 'bad' therefore obeying God is bad and if you don't obey God then you're 'good'? Is this the argument some are making?

    If so, it sounds like something satan would say, because he loves deceiving people with opposites and somehow is effective at convincing even Christians of it.

    What the Bible actually says is that obeying is God is good. Disobeying is bad. There's a page of verses supporting that:

    Link

    Maybe the source of the misunderstanding lies in a belief like this:

    If one desire to keep the law he can't just keep the 4th commandment, he must keep the whole law "perfectly" ALL HIS LIFE!

    This comes from James 2.

    What's interesting about this is some only focus on verse 10 to support their chosen narrative, but if someone reads the whole chapter they see only 4 verses later in James 2:14 it says:

    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

    So, only 4 verses later busts the narrative that someone is not supposed to do good, not supposed to obey, or even try. It in fact says the opposite.

    Then in James 2:17-20 it says it again that faith without works is dead along with "I will shew thee my faith by my works."

    Then in verse 24 it says it again, then in verse 26, it says it again. Over and over how important good works are to God. If it were not important it would say 'don't do good works', but it says to do good works.

    Verse 10 isn't saying to disobey, but that we can't do it without Jesus! Remember the Pharisees?

    "Keeping the law imperfectly is "still" a death sentence."

    No, we're already doomed sinners without Jesus. We can't earn salvation as its a gift, but that doesn't mean disobey! We must follow Jesus for salvation which includes obedience! John 14:15
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Adam.

    I believe the only thing you got right in that post was your first sentence when you said

    "I'm not totally clear on this,"

    I didn't create the narrative. here's the narrative.

    Since God's holy Sabbath day is on a Saturday and we are to honor God's Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment is it wrong for us to be going to church on Sunday shouldn't we be going to church on Saturday.

    I used James 2:10. to say you can't just focus on the sabbath day and leave the other 9 commandments out.

    And perfectly means ALL of them, all the time!! Are you saying that's wrong? if so you are saying it's ok not to obey the 10 commandments.

    And I said the law was given to Israel. Is that wrong? Romans 9:4.

    And I gave Colossians 2:14-16.

    And you may have read "We rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross"

    It doesn't mean we don't have to keep the 10 Commandments!

    It means we are no longer condemned by the 10 Commandments. This is the complete work of God.

    The 10 commandments is called the ministration of Death.

    2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

    When someone says we obey God by and through the Spirit isn't that obeying God?

    The Spirit commands the heart not the flesh. You have to ALREADY be born again to obey it.

    The law commanded the flesh and the flesh is weak! read Romans 7.

    This is what James is talking about in James 2:14. Your faith is to be confirmed by good works!

    It has nothing to do with the sabbath day.

    Again my reason for using

    James 2:10. is to say why if you're going to be under the law you have to be perfect.

    Furthermore I have no idea how teaching this teaches people to sin when the scripture says

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28.

    I don't see why you and Gigi have a problem with that.

    I will post more later.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Good Afternoon, S.Spencer

    I read this post and I don't know why you mentioned me in it. Can you explain? I want to understand better. Thanks
  • Steven Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Gigi.

    I thought I was being accused of teaching it's ok to continue in sin on my reply to Kim.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Good evening S. Spencer

    No, I was not accusing you of teaching this. I have read all of your posts.

    In the early church, because of this teaching of Paul, antinomianism became a problem in the church because people thought that they did not need to live godly lives because they were free from the law, being under grace.

    Antinomianism (sinning freely due to grace), is a problem today, also, because people do not take in the whole council of Paul's teaching across the Epistle letters concerning law and gospel. This is what I am speaking to, in general, not specifically in regards to your posts.
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hello S Spencer,

    In your last reply you wrote things that are closer to my understanding. My previous comment was because these 2 sentences in you wrote:

    "If one desire to keep the law he can't just keep the 4th commandment, he must keep the whole law "perfectly" ALL HIS LIFE!"

    "Keeping the law imperfectly is "still" a death sentence."

    Some in this forum have used such interpretations as an excuse to not even try to follow God, to not even try to do good works, to not even try to follow God's moral law. Since I now know that's not you are saying then great, we agree on that point. Anyone making a case that its bad to do good works, then that's what I feel an obligation to call out as being untrue.

    People are already sinners and are hopeless without Jesus. Salvation can't be earned, but that doesn't mean people should intentionally disobey or not try to follow Christ. Doing good works is fruit of following Christ as a Christian and James 2 supports that.
  • Steven Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Amen Thanks for that clarity Adam.

    That's why I refer to Romans 6:1-23.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank you, Adam. Yes, we cannot fall into the trap of calling good evil, and evil good. We are to love what is good and do it. Paul says that we are to not grow weary in doing good ( 2 Thessalonians 3:13, Galatians 6:9). Paul talks often about the law or doctrine of godliness (which is doing what is morally right) and instructs believers to avoid sinful actions (which he lists in multiple places). So, doing what is godly and avoiding what is sinful is obeying God and His laws. Like David, we should love God's law and delight in it. We should be thankful that God has shown us in His law what is good and what is evil.

    I think that many here who speak against doing the "works" of the law do give the impression that we can sin away as long as we believe in Jesus. I don't think that this is really what they want to convey, but in being so intent on promoting being "under grace" these people present a message that is incomplete and does not really present Paul's position in Romans and Galatians sufficiently as Paul repeatedly speaks in these Epistle letters that we are to avoid the deeds of the sinful nature and instead do the deeds of our spiritual nature led by the Holy Spirit.

    We who post here really need to be careful and thoughtful in the ideas we put forth so that we do not lead any believer into sin. This comes from speaking a balanced and thorough explanation of law and gospel, as Paul did at length and so deeply in his Epistle letters.
  • SolaScrip - In Reply - 2 years ago
    It is very WRONG to tell Christians that they will be put to death if they try to keep the Commandments and fail. Nowhere in scripture does it plainly state that. Many false preachers/teachers have spread that vicious LIE.

    James 3:2 protects us from such an awful, and abominable, lie.

    Scripture plainly teaches that Christians should obey ALL the 10 Commandments just exactly as Jesus Christ did.

    John 15:10

    1 John 2:6

    What does 'Christian' mean? It means FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ and ALL His Ways. He is the Way and the Truth and the (eternal) Life IF we live as He lived and FOLLOW His Ways. All of His disciples kept all the 10 Commandments, as well as Paul and all later followers of Christ's Ways up to around 300 A.D. when many things were changed by the Emperor Constantine and the later Roman Catholic Church.

    Shame on those preachers and teachers who tell new Christians that they will go to hell if they obey the Commandments of God Almighty. Nothing would make LESS sense than for those who love Jesus and strive to live righteously in a fallen, sinful world to be sent to hell by God.

    Review the 10 Commandments carefully, and prayerfully, and think again if they are so impossible to keep. This is a lie from the pits of hell.

    The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, who lived sinless His entire life, was primed during His lifetime to obey the Commandments. That Spirit is put into new, genuine, believers and ASSISTS in obeying the Commandments. Because it is Jesus' Spirit within us that makes this possible it is NOT works salvation. HIS Spirit is doing the WORK because we are not capable of our own power.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Sola Scrip.

    I stated "Keeping the law imperfectly is "still" a death sentence."

    The point was those who desire to put themselves UNDER the Law.

    God gave the law to Moses to give to the children of Israel and breaking the sabbath was a death penalty. Point is if you desire to be under the law how do you separate the penalty of the law from the law?

    "If" the hand written articles haven't been nailed to the cross then the penalty still exists.

    You stated It is very WRONG to tell Christians that they will be put to death if they try to keep the 10 commandments.

    I didn't say that.

    God bless.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thanks for that very pertinent response brother S. Spencer. Sabbath in the beginning was essentially a rest day - for Israel - had nothing to do with worship, though it would have been a good occasion for personal reflection. And yet that Law & all Laws were given to not only show God's Righteous Standards, but Israel's inability to fully obey & reach that standard. Hence, the Law could only point everyone to the One Who could keep it perfectly & this was what Israel should have been earnestly seeking. Had they turned to the Law-Giver rather than rejecting Him, they would have understood that the Law, though holy & good, "was weak through the flesh" (it was powerless because our flesh could never meet & fulfil its high demands).

    Israel & all mankind were doomed for their failures & sins, but for 'God sending His Own Son in our flesh, AND for sin, condemned sin in the flesh' ( Romans 8:3). "Sin is the transgression of the Law" but Jesus brought judgement to that sin (not to the Law) by meeting its every demand upon Him. So the Law & the sin that is its product, is now rendered useless/uncondemning to those who take hold of Jesus by faith - deriving their righteousness, that is without the Law, through the One Who gives us the victory over sin's judgement & sin's power, that is to say, the Law.

    While we live "in Christ Jesus" and "walk after the Spirit" fulfilling the righteousness of the Law ( Romans 8:1,4) based on faith in the One Who abrogated the letter which only kills, how then can we turn to (or, even appeal to) the "weak & beggarly elements" that only have bondage & sin as their end ( Galatians 4:9)? Just a few thoughts here that your comment inspired in me to share.
  • SolaScrip - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I'm sorry, this is incorrect, Chris. Resting on God's Holy Day Isaiah 58:13, the only day God EVER blessed and made holy, IS the very worship you claim didn't happen for that day. Obeying God's Commandments IS worship of God and those who obey ARE worshiping God by that very act.

    Sin is the breaking of the Commandments 1 John 3:4. So sin does still 100% exist and Christians are fully capable of sinning, saved or not. Therefore the 10 Commandments still 100% exist and are valid for Christians.

    The Laws were clearly given in the OT to teach the Israelites how to be right with God after the Fall of this world in Eden. Under that system, they needed to do continuous sacrifices to cleanse them of sin. Jesus has become the unequaled, perfect sacrifice for all sin and abolished that system of sacrifice with His Crucifixion. All of the Mosaic CEREMONIAL Laws, that were made such a heavy burden by the Pharisees and Sadducees, have been abolished as well.

    The 10 Commandments have absolutely NOT been abolished, and will never BE abolished. That is one of the biggest reasons Jesus did what He did with His life and sent us His Spirit afterward that had been trained up to obey ALL of the Commandments.

    Jesus obeyed ALL the 10 and we are to live as He lived. John 15:10 1 John 2:6

    Christian MEANS follower of Christ.

    The 10 Commandments were the ONLY Commandments God spoke ALOUD to Israel. And they were the ONLY Commandments written IN STONE by the finger of GOD, twice.

    God SPOKE this world into existence. God SPOKE the 10 Commandments into existence - NEVER to be altered or repealed.

    Psalm 89:34
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 3.

    And what of those who believe that we are required to keep the Ten Commandments (the Old Law), but if we slip up & sin, then there is grace through Christ for God to forgive? Could we dare to fuse the Old with the New? Is it possible that God requires us to be under the Law & yet find forgiveness through His Son's Blood? Christ's Sacrifice was for the purpose of doing away with the Law of death completely (rendering it useless) & usher in the new Law in His Blood that completely opposed the Old. Now we receive much grace to know & obey the Lord without calling upon the Decalogue as our yardstick of obedience. His Laws are written upon our hearts & not as you suggested elsewhere, that such people say they are free to disobey God or live how they like. That's impossible if we have the Spirit & remain sensitive to Him.

    The implications of the Old Law to Israel are now only of historical value - the New Law in Christ is now freedom to live in & be led by His Spirit & never be in condemnation. Our teaching should only be about living in the Spirit of Christ - without any appeal or view of the Old Law to our lives.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 2.

    Now what about the believer in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, who makes claim to the Ten Commandments, that we're required to obey them. I perceive that those who say this speak simply about God's Commands given that still have eternal moral & spiritual value to all people for all time. And that is true, for Romans 7:12 says, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." There's nothing wrong with the Law - what brings us into error, is our appeal to it & requiring others to be brought under it.

    Paul went on in that passage to describe how the Law only showed him the wretched state of his soul - if he was left in that state, he would be doomed. But he saw 'another law (now working) in his members'. The Law that revealed to him his weakness to keep it & being a total failure, was overtaken by another Law of God now working in his mind. He goes on in Romans 8:1,2 to state that now there is no condemnation by God to those who don't "walk after the flesh" (i.e. sin in his members revealed by the Law), but "walk after the Spirit". For it is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death"; a new Law that not only replaced the Old that brought death, but also gave power & liberty by the Spirit to fully know & obey God's Holy requirements. And when we fail, then there lies mercy to forgive & restore. Under the old Law, there was no mercy ( Hebrews 10:28).

    Who then requires me to obey the letter of the Law for a right standing before God? God certainly doesn't, for I am set free to obey God as His Spirit directs me. Is it only the Ten Commandments or the '613 other commandments' that must apply to me, or maybe the millions of laws that bring out the spirit of the letter, that we might "serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" ( Romans 7:6)?
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 1.

    Much could be written SolaScrip, on what you've stated & also written elsewhere by others. Maybe I'll state some fundamental Truths that have to be apprehended first. If we find disagreement in these, then any further discussion will be fruitless.

    The Ten Commandments & all of the commandments given by God were only given to Israel & no one else. No Gentile (person or nation) ever received any of them, nor has any Gentile ever required to come under them pre or post Cross. If you are of Jewish heritage, as I don't know who you are, then we could discuss this at another level.

    Jews who came under the Law, since Moses, (& also to those Gentiles who desire(d) to be placed under the Law), were required to obey every facet of the Law. If they broke even one Law, a severe punishment was meted out. Brother S.Spencer in this thread gave a very apt example in Numbers 15:32-36 of a man who gave no heed to the sanctity of the Sabbath & had to suffer death as a result - that was the Law: its nature, its demands, its punishment.

    The Jew had no choice as to which Laws (the Decalogue, civil, ceremonial, etc.) were more important to obey. They all stood equal & by it he was judged. Some Jews were very meticulous, as seen in Luke 18:18-25 (a genuine Law-keeper but failed under scrutiny: he broke the very first Commandment, maybe to his surprise). Why did Jesus even direct him to the Ten Commandments? That's all the Jews had & by it they would be judged unless they looked beyond the Law - by faith - to the One Who would put an end to the Law that only showed them their failure & brought death. What was the point of the Law: Galatians 3:19, the Law given "TILL the Seed should come". Could the Jew ever become righteous by the Law? ( Galatians 3:21-26).
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank you again, Chris,


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