I'm replying to you here in a new thread as the other thread was getting quite long.
We are in agreement that it is the Holy Spirit in us that makes it possible for us to live according to God's Commandments. This wonderful Spirit makes the impossible - possible! Amen.
You continue to state that what was spoken to the Israelites are not applicable to us/Gentiles. The scriptures disagree. Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed.
Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Paul reaffirms that the Gentiles are now Jews inwardly.
Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Per the bible scripture the children of Israel (which Gentiles are after adoption) shall keep God's Commandments including observing the Sabbath throughout their generation for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever.
Yes, we who are in Christ, are now Jews inwardly, and will want to keep all of God's Commandments, and again, we do so via God's Holy Spirit, not of our own accord. Amen.
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Thank you for your response. You made a long 3 part response, with great scripture! But your additional scripture does not change or weaken the scripture that I presented.
The main topic was the 10 Commandments, and secondary topic was the analogy of the Gentiles (wild olive tree) being grafted into the Israelites (cultivated olive tree).
I try to remain open minded and adjust as the Spirit may move me. I believe the scripture speaks for itself on these two topics. The chapter Romans 11 is speaks specifically about the Gentiles being grafted into this cultivated olive tree, and becoming Israelites Galatians 3:29. We become Abrahams seed! Paul states this fact again in Romans 2:29 we become Jews inwardly.
You put forth your argument against the Gentiles becoming Israelites and include scripture found in other areas directed at the 3 different/separate groups. The Church, the Gentiles, and Israelites. I agree they have been and CAN continue to be separate. But, the analogy that Paul uses regarding the grafting of the two olives threes - shows that Christ changed this; by keeping the original tree intact, not making a new tree. (You suggested different - we disagree) Jesus Christ is the tree root of the original tree, and the original branches are the Israelites. Paul is stating in scripture that Jesus removes the defective branches (unbelieving Jews), keeping the branches of the believing Jews intact, and then grafting in the believing Gentiles into the tree. In essence, bringing the believing Jews, and believing Gentiles, into ONE BODY - the CHURCH. I hope now, this makes sense to you.
Next, God originally gave the 10 Commandments to the Israelites. Now that we believers have accepted Jesus Christ, and have been adopted into the Church (Olive Tree) we are partakers of God's salvation, along with His Commands - we are treated the same now as the Israelites. No better - no worse!
I appreciate all of your time, and have enjoyed reading all of the scripture shared, and topics discussed. I believe we agree on much more than we disagree, and I will pray His Spirit will continue to work in each of us, to shine the light of truth on the scriptures for our continued understanding.
What I think is being missed in Galatians 3:29. Is that it actually says the opposite of the way you take it.
It says "you are Abraham's seed, and heirs, ""ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE"". Not law!! and not nationality.
The Promise spoken of here, "the covenant of God in Christ" was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Galatians 3:17. and before Israel was a nation.
So Galatians. 3:29. Is not saying you are Israelites it's saying you are children of Promise as we see in Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
I think the confusion is when often you call members of the church Israelites citing Galatians 3:29. and
Romans 2:29.
But you must consider
Galatians 3:28. "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."
So when you revisit Romans 9 and take on Romans 9:6-8. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
This is not making a distinction between Ishmael and Issac.
It's a distinction between
1) National Israel "The broken off branch who were blinded and who you are attempting to be grafted into " and 2) Messianic Israel who's joint members of the Church and children of the promise.
Have you noticed they all weren't broken off?
Romans 11:17. AND "IF SOME" OF THE BRANCHES BE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; BUT THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
There is a lot here in this portion of scripture, for one you will see there is two groups here, Us/The Church and Israel.
Take notice of what we are being grafted into! Is it Israel? No, Israel is a branch broken off because of unbelief.
You see the concept in John and Mathews. I am the vine true/genuine vine in John 15:1-12. and Mathews 7:13-23. opposed to Israel in Jeremiah 2:21.
Notice Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Again, salvation wasn't to come by the law where the Gentiles were foreigners, the law was to show the world they needed a savior that's what God promised Abraham.
Genesis 22:18.
SO, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW?
Galatians 3:18-29.
This puts the verse you gave, " Galatians 3:29." in its proper perspective.
More References:
Romans 7:4-7.
Romans 7:8-13.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
You mentioned Romans 2:29. Let's look at it.
You should take it from Romans 2:11-29. to put it in its context.
Romans 2:11-16.
Notice Paul says, "FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Even before the law was given, we had light in the world that bared witness of right and wrong! (The law put a death sentence on us. Romans 7:8-10.)
Continuing.
Romans 2:17-24.
Context: vs 17. "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,"
This portion of scripture seems to label you as a hypocrite and blasphemer when you put your trust in being able to keep the law.
Thank you for this in-depth study. I appreciate it.
My only comment is to your last statement on this post.
I do not think that anyone on here is really stating that they are trusting in one's ability in keeping the law. I think that this is a misrepresentation of what some are saying on here. Most on here agree that we are made righteous by faith in Jesus; that His work of salvation, perfect life, and perfect sacrifice is all we need to trust in for our right standing with God.
Most on here believe that it is through God's grace that we come to salvation; it is a gift from God and not earned. Most on here believe that being under grace frees us from the curse of the law and the need to try to attain righteousness by keeping the law. Most on here believe also that Paul repeatedly teaches believers to live godly lives and speaks against engaging in sins such as enumerated in Galatians 5:19-21; Colossians 3:9; Ephesians 4:17-32; 5:1-12; 1 Corinthians 6:8-10; 10:6-11; Romans 6:11-14; 13:8-10; 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22; Hebrews 13:4-5; because we are to walk in the Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus also speaks to this in Rev. 22:14-15.
Therefore. I think it is improper for one to say things that will discourage believers from practicing godliness in their daily lives. Paul taught clearly that believers are to avoid that which is sinful. So, as a believer, I do not wish to covet, lie, steal, be sexually immoral, kill another, dishonor my parents, disregard sabbath resting, use the Lord's name improperly, set up any idol, or worship an idol, along with may other sinful actions Paul spoke against in his epistles, and in the words of Jesus, Himself.
One who is loving God and loving others will not make a habit of doing these sinful things, but only what good that is of the Spirit's grace and power in a believer's life. We are not talking about law keeping as it was required in the OT, living in obedience to God instead of in sinfulness.
I know that God has said multiple times in Scripture that He alone is God and there is, never has, never will be, any other. He says that He will not share His glory with another god (which would be a created being). So, to claim that believers become gods or divine contradicts what God has clearly stated strongly time and time again.
I do think that the fact of our union in Christ is the only basis for us to partake of His divine nature but we do not acquire His ontological essence. Only He possesses that solely within the Godhead. There are no more divine persons added to the Godhead.
When we get married, we enter a union with our spouse, but we still remain our essential selves. These selves are not mixed together to form a third self (except in the conception of a child). But as for the two spouses our beings are not fused together nor infused into the other. If that were so, a divorce would tear this new single entity in two. That doesn't happen.
So, being in union with Christ does not mean we mix our being with Christ's being to become one new mixed being, eliminating the individual persons of the original two.
In a similar vein, in Christ's Being, both the divine nature and human nature are unified in one Person, but not mixed together to form one God/human nature in place of the two individual natures. Christ is unique. He alone possesses both a divine and human nature. We are only human by nature and will continue to be only human by nature into eternity, however glorified and made incorruptible like the human nature of Jesus in heaven. I think it is blasphemous to claim that any created being can ascend to become divine. The reality is that God the son in humility incarnated in human flesh taking on its nature, but still remaining divine, too. This was an immense condescension on His part.
I am interested in how you view this topic. It is very concerning to me to hear
Thanks for replying! sorry for my delay in responding, I also have been mostly only checking in from time to time and picked up on some unfinished projects at the house.
Concerning the notion that we all will become Gods and birth the Holyspirit is a dangerous heresy in my opinion.
I agree with you 100 percent on everything you said!
That doctrine is a dangerous doctrine to hold.
And the hermeneutics he uses is also dangerous, He spiritualize everything to bend scripture to his views.
What's so dangerous is some things are allegory and types, but when you spiritualize EVERYTHING those treasures get lost and so do the truth, you're left without out Gods devine word and left with speculation and perspectives!
I debated with him about a year and a half ago. This is what I've learned.
His base doctrine derives an flawed interpretation of Exodus 3:13-15.
"Here's his interpretation;
He says this text says God's "name" is Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
He disregard the I AM THAT I AM in vs 14.
He says this is a picture of the Trinity. ( Israel ) and he says the seed shall come though them. Christ.
But he says the church is spiritual Israel and that seed "Christ" is planted in us and we birth the Holyspirit.
This is another example of someone shaping their theology around a viewpoint and bending scripture to support it.
A year and a half ago he was presenting this but cautiously.
After the debate focusing on Exodus 3:14. he left the site for about 4 months and just returned about 2 weeks ahead of you. He would post sparingly but we paid him not much attention and the newbies ignored his strange doctrine.
Now he's the boldest he has ever been!!
I was saddened when he left the first time and asked about him.
When he came back I was happy to hear from him but later understood he held that same doctrine.
Hiya Spence GBU...But Spence you are not understanding spritual things...Gods name is indeed Abraham Isaac and Jacob...Without this Abrahamic trinity there could not have been a nation of ISRAEL...Followed by the 12 tribes...Then the whole nation of ISRAEL...Don'cha see that God almighty offered up his only son Jesus exactly like Abraham offered up his only son Isaac...When God refered to himself as the I AM...Implies an Isarel of God that are I AM'S..Gods as Jesus said to whom the word came it made them Gods...Which implies there is gonna be another Creation in the Spirit...Which are Gods that are gonna be born in us sinners...There are gonna be an Israel of God which are spirits...As Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit as God is spirit.
....The seed of the sower is gonna result in another Creation.That are gonna be born in Us via his seed the living word.As David tells us of a ppl coming that are yet unborn...That has to come and declear his Generation... Psalms 22 : 31...Several of the Prophets saw a ppl coming that wd come from the North Country...Heavenly impling spirits..The H.G. that comes from Christ seed...the word that New Covenant..As we have born the image of the earthy we must also bear ( birth ) the image of the heavenly..When Jesus spoke of the babes and sucklings thats our new innermen the H.G. an Israel of God.They are gonna rule all nations..They are gonna be born in the hearts of the world via the Seed of the Sower.
.....A lil one is gonna become a 1000 and a small one a strong nation.Thats the Israel of God that are gonna be born in us via the seed of Christ...Thats y God Almighty made that great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of Heaven..Thats y Jesus said Whosoever receiveth one such Child in my name receiveth ME...That new born babe Peter is telling us about is the H.G . that Child OF Promise.That desires the sincere MILK of the Word..We are just a joint heir with him the H.G. WHO IS LORD OF ALL,.. GAL 4 : 1.
I'm familiar with your view from past and present discourse.
I see Abraham offering Issac performs the Gospel, particularly the resurrection as mentioned in the 11th Chapter of Hebrews. But again I don't follow your interpretation of scripture.
You speak of the union between the Holyspirit spirit and the believer as a future event.
But the way I see it is when the Holyspirit entered S Spencer he died and was given the earnest of the spirit so now I liveth, Hidden in Christ until the redemption of our bodies. I'm born again by the seed which is the word of God. I didn't give anything or anyone life, The Holyspirit gave me life!! and I have eternal life and I have it NOW.
I'm sure we are far off in this particular area of our beliefs. I pray you have sound soteriology " Doctrine of salvation " if so then that is wonderful!! but what you have gleaned from the word of God worries me. To receive virtue from the fat of the vine where there's wisdom and knowledge of the word of God as we grow in harmony seems lacking.
I will continue to pray for you and I hope others do so as well.
Thanks so much for your informative reply. It helps to know some of the history. As you said that he has become bolder. Well, then, we should be even bolder when we express sound doctrine that is biblically supported and has stood the test of time as well.
But it seems that there are some who are concerned about my boldness in replying to what was originally posted. I am not one to come here and initiate a post to express a doctrinal view of mine to invite discussion or push my viewpoint. That is just not my way.
I appreciate the support you extend to me in this matter. You and I have some differences between us, but mostly, we seem to be on the same wavelength. It is good to have people like you to exchange ideas with. I am blessed by you over and over again. Thanks!
You're a blessing to me and this site as well, and keep leading us in prayer for Ukraine and clarity to what this all means in regards to God's program.
Inerrancy in the gospel is much needed, especially in these evil days.
Sometimes I grow weary in debates that has nothing to do with salvation. This is the time to preach the message that regenerates.
I understand what you said about conversing about salvation matters. This is very important to do with unbelievers and believers alike. We need to hear often the good news of salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. And also, we need to mature in our faith. This is where sound doctrine plays a part. If we do not adhere to sound doctrine on Who God is and what His nature is like, and Who Jesus is and what His nature is like, and who humans are and what our nature is like, one will fall into error and be promoting a false god and false Jesus and a false view of our own selves in relation to God. And this can lead one into heresy, blasphemy and idolatry, worshipping the god we have devised in our heart and having an unduly high view of mankind. This is why we speak to such erroneous thinking as this, because, as you have said, it is a danger to believers.
Have a good day. You always have such a good word. Thanks
Christ's union with believers is described as similar to the union between a husband and wife. "They two become one flesh." Paul said that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing. Apart from Christ dwelling in them, Christians cannot be good or do good because there is only one good who is God.
Sinners can become possessed by the devil but if they do not become possessed by the Holy Spirit they shall never enter heaven.
Luke 11:24-26
King James Version
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Hello Mr. Spencer, I am doing well. I was just prompted by the Holy Spirit to take a week off of posting. I 've been reading posts this week and keeping up with the prayer requests without posting until today. It was good to see a few others posting their prayer support for requests this past week and to see some new posters on the discussion page. I love that.
My husband and I began a new outdoor project last weekend and it will most likely take us into April to finish. I have been occupied with this outside each day since the weather has been fair.
Also, I have been researching the ideas Alex repeatedly posts about the Seed of God impregnating believers to bring about a birth of a baby Christ or Holy Spirit in believers, or that this pregnancy replicates or multiplies God, or that this pregnancy makes us into baby Jesus' or baby Holy Spirit. My exchange with him was my last post last week and since I told him once again that I consider these views heretical, I though I should study his views more to see where they come do come from. I am aware of the "little gods" "sonship" and :manifest sons of God" heresies and perhaps that is where he gets this theology.
But I wanted to see if it is being taught in another setting other than this, as I am not aware of any church that holds orthodox theological views on this that teaches as Alex or these other "movements" do. I am aware that the concept of "theosis" (deification of humanity) has been taught in the church since early times, but these teachings do not teach that we acquire God's essential deity, but rather his communicated divine character attributes such as love, patience, wisdom, etc. These teachings do teach that we partake of the divine nature as 2 Peter 1:4 states, but again our nature does not change from human to divine, rather due to our union with Christ, we are privileged to share in what Jesus has by this union. Our human nature is not mixed with His divine nature (this is impossible). Thanks.
Thanks for your post to me. You said you are a regular on here but I do not recognize your screen name here. Do you post under another name? I just want to know who I am interacting so I can recall past conversations and posts.
I have said that obeying the commandments is a "requirement". I only recall it being mentioned one time by another poster.
I just happened to think that if Jesus instructed us to obey His commandments if claim to love Him, then we should as He has asks us to do. That is a bit different than "requirement".
You said, "You think that this is a misrepresentation of what some are saying on here.
Most on here agree that we are made righteous by faith in Jesus; that His work of salvation, perfect life, and perfect sacrifice is all we need to trust in for our right standing with God."
And you said Most on here believe that it is through God's grace that we come to salvation; it is a gift from God and not earned. Most on here believe that being under grace frees us from the curse of the law and the need to try to attain righteousness by keeping the law.
For a full week I have been posting to an individual and he's been posting to me.
"Not most people as you stated!"
He made it clear as he always has!!
He has made it clear to you also.
We have been having this friendly debate off and on joined by others for some time now.
Here is a portion of his quote to you.
"I agree, but I also would like to add that Jesus tells us repeatedly throughout the scripture to follow the commandments, including this powerful scripture spoken by Jesus to Apostle John approximately 50 years after His ascension into Heaven. If the Commandments were nailed to the cross and are no longer viable as many try to argue, why is Jesus still telling us that following his commandments are necessary - 50 years after His crucifixion?"
Hear is a portion of his quote to me.
"In summary, we must follow Jesus/God's commands (10 Commandments) and work out our own salvation - if we expect to receive his favorable judgement."
Im not sure why you feel I've misrepresented anyone when they make it clear.
Again my post is to an individual as an answer to his reply to me.
"Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed." End quote.
your reference scriptures are in Galatians 3:29. and Romans 2:29.
Let's deal with the grafting in first.
You would have to go to Romans 10 to put it into perspective.
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Romans 10:1-4.
NOTE:
Christ is the goal! the Law was given to bring Man to Christ. He said, "I didn't come to patch up an old garment, I came to give you a new garment." (The robe of his righteousness)
Continuing-
Look here in Romans 11:1-9.
Notice verses 5-7.
(Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded)
verses 8-9.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
I did that ones grafting process, It was very successful. The tree did not grow more than it should. So the root actually agreed with the branches. So with them we have become a new branch, is not? But as in New Testament times, we have the same level now. The Jews are a group in their own right, but will harvest from the same tree.
Because we have the same Holy Spirit. Our dear Paul was given the task of going to the "Gentiles", therefore the Gentiles are no longer called Gentiles. Because we grow on the same tree. Can we really imagine what Grace God has really given us?
My heart overflows with gratitude, and brethren rejoice. For the whole male race is hard as horn and strong as oxen. So remember the weaker guys where you are. They are so valuable because their hearts are humble and natural, full of care and love. That is why He created us as man and woman.
Agreed, through faith, Gentiles become the children of Abraham, who by faith obeyed God, which was counted to him as righteousness. So, if we are children of God as Israel is, it is by faith. And, Abraham, chosen by God before he had demonstrated faith, responded to God in faith by living in obedience to God's commands to him (which predated the Law of Moses). But it is clearly stated in Hebrews 11:8-12 speaks of how Abraham obeyed God because he had faith in God. Also, read in Romans chapter 4, speaking of God's promise to Abraham being based on faith, not works. Yet, Abraham needed to act on his faith to receive the promise. Isaac was not conceived without Abraham's action done with faith. Therefore, we are to obey God through faith in Him, believing that He is true to His promises and also that His commands are good and best for us.
Additionally Abraham's faith was confirmed by his obedience and faith when it was tested by God telling him to offer up his only son Issac. Hebrews 11:17-18 says Abraham held both that Issac was his only hope of inheriting the promise God had made to him and put his trust in God's ability to raise the dead if in obedience he offered Issac to God in sacrifice.
While Abraham was not required to go through with the test to prove that God was this faithful to the promises Abraham received, God's only Son had to complete the test at the hands of His Father to grant Abraham the fullness of the promise and blessing given to him. Christ's resurrection is the proof that both the Father and the Son completed the test fully in order to uphold His promise to Abraham forever and God indeed provided the Lamb Abraham told Issac about by faith. The fulfillment of this test and obedience by Christ did not come to us by our keeping the law, not even the Ten Commandments. It comes to us who bless and share Abraham's faith.
I agree, that we do not necessarily become Israelites or Jews by the ingrafting done by God. The account of the ingrafting in Romans 11:16-24 speaks pointedly to the root and the first-fruit being holy. This is definitely speaking of Jesus Christ.
This is really a beautiful picture of Christ being the source of the people of Israel (the root). It tells us that Jesus pre-existed the people of Israel, the partiarchs Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. And on backwards through history, tracing Abraham's lineage all the way back to Adam. Jesus was before all things, and He is the holy first-fruit of the Olive Tree people produced from Himself.
I'm replying to you here in a new thread as the other thread was getting quite long.
We are in agreement that it is the Holy Spirit in us that makes it possible for us to live according to God's Commandments. This wonderful Spirit makes the impossible - possible! Amen.
You continue to state that what was spoken to the Israelites are not applicable to us/Gentiles. The scriptures disagree. Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed.
Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Paul reaffirms that the Gentiles are now Jews inwardly.
Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Per the bible scripture the children of Israel (which Gentiles are after adoption) shall keep God's Commandments including observing the Sabbath throughout their generation for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever.
Yes, we who are in Christ, are now Jews inwardly, and will want to keep all of God's Commandments, and again, we do so via God's Holy Spirit, not of our own accord. Amen.
God Bless You!
Romans 2:24-29.
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
God bless."
Thank you for your response. You made a long 3 part response, with great scripture! But your additional scripture does not change or weaken the scripture that I presented.
The main topic was the 10 Commandments, and secondary topic was the analogy of the Gentiles (wild olive tree) being grafted into the Israelites (cultivated olive tree).
I try to remain open minded and adjust as the Spirit may move me. I believe the scripture speaks for itself on these two topics. The chapter Romans 11 is speaks specifically about the Gentiles being grafted into this cultivated olive tree, and becoming Israelites Galatians 3:29. We become Abrahams seed! Paul states this fact again in Romans 2:29 we become Jews inwardly.
You put forth your argument against the Gentiles becoming Israelites and include scripture found in other areas directed at the 3 different/separate groups. The Church, the Gentiles, and Israelites. I agree they have been and CAN continue to be separate. But, the analogy that Paul uses regarding the grafting of the two olives threes - shows that Christ changed this; by keeping the original tree intact, not making a new tree. (You suggested different - we disagree) Jesus Christ is the tree root of the original tree, and the original branches are the Israelites. Paul is stating in scripture that Jesus removes the defective branches (unbelieving Jews), keeping the branches of the believing Jews intact, and then grafting in the believing Gentiles into the tree. In essence, bringing the believing Jews, and believing Gentiles, into ONE BODY - the CHURCH. I hope now, this makes sense to you.
Next, God originally gave the 10 Commandments to the Israelites. Now that we believers have accepted Jesus Christ, and have been adopted into the Church (Olive Tree) we are partakers of God's salvation, along with His Commands - we are treated the same now as the Israelites. No better - no worse!
Read and Believe!
Part 2 of 2.
So we see in part 1, There's a distinction in #1) "a Jew in Christ," where there is no difference between them and a Gentile in Christ. Romans 10:12."
and #2) "National Israel."
That distinction of the 2 is embodied in the text in
Romans 9:6. ( All Israel is not Israel.
Romans 11:5. ( A remnant.)
Romans 11:7. ( the election.)
and
Romans 11:17. ( And if SOME of the branches be broken off,)
Brother Dan I leave off with this.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:1-6.
God bless you.
I appreciate all of your time, and have enjoyed reading all of the scripture shared, and topics discussed. I believe we agree on much more than we disagree, and I will pray His Spirit will continue to work in each of us, to shine the light of truth on the scriptures for our continued understanding.
Stay well and God Bless You!
I've always enjoyed our conversations as well.
May the Lord bless you Brother.
Pt. 1
What I think is being missed in Galatians 3:29. Is that it actually says the opposite of the way you take it.
It says "you are Abraham's seed, and heirs, ""ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE"". Not law!! and not nationality.
The Promise spoken of here, "the covenant of God in Christ" was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Galatians 3:17. and before Israel was a nation.
So Galatians. 3:29. Is not saying you are Israelites it's saying you are children of Promise as we see in Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
I think the confusion is when often you call members of the church Israelites citing Galatians 3:29. and
Romans 2:29.
But you must consider
Galatians 3:28. "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."
So when you revisit Romans 9 and take on Romans 9:6-8. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
This is not making a distinction between Ishmael and Issac.
It's a distinction between
1) National Israel "The broken off branch who were blinded and who you are attempting to be grafted into " and 2) Messianic Israel who's joint members of the Church and children of the promise.
Have you noticed they all weren't broken off?
Romans 11:17. AND "IF SOME" OF THE BRANCHES BE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; BUT THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded
Here's why they're broken off.
Romans 9:31-32.
c pt2
Part 3.
Romans 2:24-29.
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
God bless.
Part 2.
Romans 11:10-32.
There is a lot here in this portion of scripture, for one you will see there is two groups here, Us/The Church and Israel.
Take notice of what we are being grafted into! Is it Israel? No, Israel is a branch broken off because of unbelief.
You see the concept in John and Mathews. I am the vine true/genuine vine in John 15:1-12. and Mathews 7:13-23. opposed to Israel in Jeremiah 2:21.
Notice Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Again, salvation wasn't to come by the law where the Gentiles were foreigners, the law was to show the world they needed a savior that's what God promised Abraham.
Genesis 22:18.
SO, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW?
Galatians 3:18-29.
This puts the verse you gave, " Galatians 3:29." in its proper perspective.
More References:
Romans 7:4-7.
Romans 7:8-13.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
You mentioned Romans 2:29. Let's look at it.
You should take it from Romans 2:11-29. to put it in its context.
Romans 2:11-16.
Notice Paul says, "FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Even before the law was given, we had light in the world that bared witness of right and wrong! (The law put a death sentence on us. Romans 7:8-10.)
Continuing.
Romans 2:17-24.
Context: vs 17. "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,"
This portion of scripture seems to label you as a hypocrite and blasphemer when you put your trust in being able to keep the law.
See verses 24-29 in Part 3.
Thank you for this in-depth study. I appreciate it.
My only comment is to your last statement on this post.
I do not think that anyone on here is really stating that they are trusting in one's ability in keeping the law. I think that this is a misrepresentation of what some are saying on here. Most on here agree that we are made righteous by faith in Jesus; that His work of salvation, perfect life, and perfect sacrifice is all we need to trust in for our right standing with God.
Most on here believe that it is through God's grace that we come to salvation; it is a gift from God and not earned. Most on here believe that being under grace frees us from the curse of the law and the need to try to attain righteousness by keeping the law. Most on here believe also that Paul repeatedly teaches believers to live godly lives and speaks against engaging in sins such as enumerated in Galatians 5:19-21; Colossians 3:9; Ephesians 4:17-32; 5:1-12; 1 Corinthians 6:8-10; 10:6-11; Romans 6:11-14; 13:8-10; 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22; Hebrews 13:4-5; because we are to walk in the Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus also speaks to this in Rev. 22:14-15.
Therefore. I think it is improper for one to say things that will discourage believers from practicing godliness in their daily lives. Paul taught clearly that believers are to avoid that which is sinful. So, as a believer, I do not wish to covet, lie, steal, be sexually immoral, kill another, dishonor my parents, disregard sabbath resting, use the Lord's name improperly, set up any idol, or worship an idol, along with may other sinful actions Paul spoke against in his epistles, and in the words of Jesus, Himself.
One who is loving God and loving others will not make a habit of doing these sinful things, but only what good that is of the Spirit's grace and power in a believer's life. We are not talking about law keeping as it was required in the OT, living in obedience to God instead of in sinfulness.
How are you, Haven't heard from you.
Hope all is well.
I would love to hear you ideas concerning this.
I know that God has said multiple times in Scripture that He alone is God and there is, never has, never will be, any other. He says that He will not share His glory with another god (which would be a created being). So, to claim that believers become gods or divine contradicts what God has clearly stated strongly time and time again.
I do think that the fact of our union in Christ is the only basis for us to partake of His divine nature but we do not acquire His ontological essence. Only He possesses that solely within the Godhead. There are no more divine persons added to the Godhead.
When we get married, we enter a union with our spouse, but we still remain our essential selves. These selves are not mixed together to form a third self (except in the conception of a child). But as for the two spouses our beings are not fused together nor infused into the other. If that were so, a divorce would tear this new single entity in two. That doesn't happen.
So, being in union with Christ does not mean we mix our being with Christ's being to become one new mixed being, eliminating the individual persons of the original two.
In a similar vein, in Christ's Being, both the divine nature and human nature are unified in one Person, but not mixed together to form one God/human nature in place of the two individual natures. Christ is unique. He alone possesses both a divine and human nature. We are only human by nature and will continue to be only human by nature into eternity, however glorified and made incorruptible like the human nature of Jesus in heaven. I think it is blasphemous to claim that any created being can ascend to become divine. The reality is that God the son in humility incarnated in human flesh taking on its nature, but still remaining divine, too. This was an immense condescension on His part.
I am interested in how you view this topic. It is very concerning to me to hear
Thanks for replying! sorry for my delay in responding, I also have been mostly only checking in from time to time and picked up on some unfinished projects at the house.
Concerning the notion that we all will become Gods and birth the Holyspirit is a dangerous heresy in my opinion.
I agree with you 100 percent on everything you said!
That doctrine is a dangerous doctrine to hold.
And the hermeneutics he uses is also dangerous, He spiritualize everything to bend scripture to his views.
What's so dangerous is some things are allegory and types, but when you spiritualize EVERYTHING those treasures get lost and so do the truth, you're left without out Gods devine word and left with speculation and perspectives!
I debated with him about a year and a half ago. This is what I've learned.
His base doctrine derives an flawed interpretation of Exodus 3:13-15.
"Here's his interpretation;
He says this text says God's "name" is Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
He disregard the I AM THAT I AM in vs 14.
He says this is a picture of the Trinity. ( Israel ) and he says the seed shall come though them. Christ.
But he says the church is spiritual Israel and that seed "Christ" is planted in us and we birth the Holyspirit.
This is another example of someone shaping their theology around a viewpoint and bending scripture to support it.
A year and a half ago he was presenting this but cautiously.
After the debate focusing on Exodus 3:14. he left the site for about 4 months and just returned about 2 weeks ahead of you. He would post sparingly but we paid him not much attention and the newbies ignored his strange doctrine.
Now he's the boldest he has ever been!!
I was saddened when he left the first time and asked about him.
When he came back I was happy to hear from him but later understood he held that same doctrine.
I decided not to give him Godspeed.
God bless you sister Gigi.
....The seed of the sower is gonna result in another Creation.That are gonna be born in Us via his seed the living word.As David tells us of a ppl coming that are yet unborn...That has to come and declear his Generation... Psalms 22 : 31...Several of the Prophets saw a ppl coming that wd come from the North Country...Heavenly impling spirits..The H.G. that comes from Christ seed...the word that New Covenant..As we have born the image of the earthy we must also bear ( birth ) the image of the heavenly..When Jesus spoke of the babes and sucklings thats our new innermen the H.G. an Israel of God.They are gonna rule all nations..They are gonna be born in the hearts of the world via the Seed of the Sower.
.....A lil one is gonna become a 1000 and a small one a strong nation.Thats the Israel of God that are gonna be born in us via the seed of Christ...Thats y God Almighty made that great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of Heaven..Thats y Jesus said Whosoever receiveth one such Child in my name receiveth ME...That new born babe Peter is telling us about is the H.G . that Child OF Promise.That desires the sincere MILK of the Word..We are just a joint heir with him the H.G. WHO IS LORD OF ALL,.. GAL 4 : 1.
Thanks for your reply,
I'm familiar with your view from past and present discourse.
I see Abraham offering Issac performs the Gospel, particularly the resurrection as mentioned in the 11th Chapter of Hebrews. But again I don't follow your interpretation of scripture.
You speak of the union between the Holyspirit spirit and the believer as a future event.
But the way I see it is when the Holyspirit entered S Spencer he died and was given the earnest of the spirit so now I liveth, Hidden in Christ until the redemption of our bodies. I'm born again by the seed which is the word of God. I didn't give anything or anyone life, The Holyspirit gave me life!! and I have eternal life and I have it NOW.
I'm sure we are far off in this particular area of our beliefs. I pray you have sound soteriology " Doctrine of salvation " if so then that is wonderful!! but what you have gleaned from the word of God worries me. To receive virtue from the fat of the vine where there's wisdom and knowledge of the word of God as we grow in harmony seems lacking.
I will continue to pray for you and I hope others do so as well.
God bless.
Thanks so much for your informative reply. It helps to know some of the history. As you said that he has become bolder. Well, then, we should be even bolder when we express sound doctrine that is biblically supported and has stood the test of time as well.
But it seems that there are some who are concerned about my boldness in replying to what was originally posted. I am not one to come here and initiate a post to express a doctrinal view of mine to invite discussion or push my viewpoint. That is just not my way.
I appreciate the support you extend to me in this matter. You and I have some differences between us, but mostly, we seem to be on the same wavelength. It is good to have people like you to exchange ideas with. I am blessed by you over and over again. Thanks!
You're a blessing to me and this site as well, and keep leading us in prayer for Ukraine and clarity to what this all means in regards to God's program.
Inerrancy in the gospel is much needed, especially in these evil days.
Sometimes I grow weary in debates that has nothing to do with salvation. This is the time to preach the message that regenerates.
Thank you and God bless.
I understand what you said about conversing about salvation matters. This is very important to do with unbelievers and believers alike. We need to hear often the good news of salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord. And also, we need to mature in our faith. This is where sound doctrine plays a part. If we do not adhere to sound doctrine on Who God is and what His nature is like, and Who Jesus is and what His nature is like, and who humans are and what our nature is like, one will fall into error and be promoting a false god and false Jesus and a false view of our own selves in relation to God. And this can lead one into heresy, blasphemy and idolatry, worshipping the god we have devised in our heart and having an unduly high view of mankind. This is why we speak to such erroneous thinking as this, because, as you have said, it is a danger to believers.
Have a good day. You always have such a good word. Thanks
Thanks Gigi. God bless.
Sinners can become possessed by the devil but if they do not become possessed by the Holy Spirit they shall never enter heaven.
Luke 11:24-26
King James Version
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
And well chosen verse.
God bless.
My husband and I began a new outdoor project last weekend and it will most likely take us into April to finish. I have been occupied with this outside each day since the weather has been fair.
Also, I have been researching the ideas Alex repeatedly posts about the Seed of God impregnating believers to bring about a birth of a baby Christ or Holy Spirit in believers, or that this pregnancy replicates or multiplies God, or that this pregnancy makes us into baby Jesus' or baby Holy Spirit. My exchange with him was my last post last week and since I told him once again that I consider these views heretical, I though I should study his views more to see where they come do come from. I am aware of the "little gods" "sonship" and :manifest sons of God" heresies and perhaps that is where he gets this theology.
But I wanted to see if it is being taught in another setting other than this, as I am not aware of any church that holds orthodox theological views on this that teaches as Alex or these other "movements" do. I am aware that the concept of "theosis" (deification of humanity) has been taught in the church since early times, but these teachings do not teach that we acquire God's essential deity, but rather his communicated divine character attributes such as love, patience, wisdom, etc. These teachings do teach that we partake of the divine nature as 2 Peter 1:4 states, but again our nature does not change from human to divine, rather due to our union with Christ, we are privileged to share in what Jesus has by this union. Our human nature is not mixed with His divine nature (this is impossible). Thanks.
I would like to note one more thing,
I stated to Brother Dan we have one word that separate our view and that word is "Requirement".
Every regular on the site knows my take on this and if myself and our friend agreed we wouldn't have a debate would we?
Thanks for your post to me. You said you are a regular on here but I do not recognize your screen name here. Do you post under another name? I just want to know who I am interacting so I can recall past conversations and posts.
I have said that obeying the commandments is a "requirement". I only recall it being mentioned one time by another poster.
I just happened to think that if Jesus instructed us to obey His commandments if claim to love Him, then we should as He has asks us to do. That is a bit different than "requirement".
That message was from me.
Something went terrible wrong with my heading.
God bless.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I'm sorry but I don't agree with you on this one.
Here's why.
You said, "You think that this is a misrepresentation of what some are saying on here.
Most on here agree that we are made righteous by faith in Jesus; that His work of salvation, perfect life, and perfect sacrifice is all we need to trust in for our right standing with God."
And you said Most on here believe that it is through God's grace that we come to salvation; it is a gift from God and not earned. Most on here believe that being under grace frees us from the curse of the law and the need to try to attain righteousness by keeping the law.
For a full week I have been posting to an individual and he's been posting to me.
"Not most people as you stated!"
He made it clear as he always has!!
He has made it clear to you also.
We have been having this friendly debate off and on joined by others for some time now.
Here is a portion of his quote to you.
"I agree, but I also would like to add that Jesus tells us repeatedly throughout the scripture to follow the commandments, including this powerful scripture spoken by Jesus to Apostle John approximately 50 years after His ascension into Heaven. If the Commandments were nailed to the cross and are no longer viable as many try to argue, why is Jesus still telling us that following his commandments are necessary - 50 years after His crucifixion?"
Hear is a portion of his quote to me.
"In summary, we must follow Jesus/God's commands (10 Commandments) and work out our own salvation - if we expect to receive his favorable judgement."
Im not sure why you feel I've misrepresented anyone when they make it clear.
Again my post is to an individual as an answer to his reply to me.
Not most people.
God Bless.
point taken.
Part 1 of ?
Your quote:
"Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed." End quote.
your reference scriptures are in Galatians 3:29. and Romans 2:29.
Let's deal with the grafting in first.
You would have to go to Romans 10 to put it into perspective.
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Romans 10:1-4.
NOTE:
Christ is the goal! the Law was given to bring Man to Christ. He said, "I didn't come to patch up an old garment, I came to give you a new garment." (The robe of his righteousness)
Continuing-
Look here in Romans 11:1-9.
Notice verses 5-7.
(Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded)
verses 8-9.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
We will come back to stumblingblock.
see Part 2.
Because we have the same Holy Spirit. Our dear Paul was given the task of going to the "Gentiles", therefore the Gentiles are no longer called Gentiles. Because we grow on the same tree. Can we really imagine what Grace God has really given us?
My heart overflows with gratitude, and brethren rejoice. For the whole male race is hard as horn and strong as oxen. So remember the weaker guys where you are. They are so valuable because their hearts are humble and natural, full of care and love. That is why He created us as man and woman.
God bless us all 1 John chapter 3.
Agreed, through faith, Gentiles become the children of Abraham, who by faith obeyed God, which was counted to him as righteousness. So, if we are children of God as Israel is, it is by faith. And, Abraham, chosen by God before he had demonstrated faith, responded to God in faith by living in obedience to God's commands to him (which predated the Law of Moses). But it is clearly stated in Hebrews 11:8-12 speaks of how Abraham obeyed God because he had faith in God. Also, read in Romans chapter 4, speaking of God's promise to Abraham being based on faith, not works. Yet, Abraham needed to act on his faith to receive the promise. Isaac was not conceived without Abraham's action done with faith. Therefore, we are to obey God through faith in Him, believing that He is true to His promises and also that His commands are good and best for us.
While Abraham was not required to go through with the test to prove that God was this faithful to the promises Abraham received, God's only Son had to complete the test at the hands of His Father to grant Abraham the fullness of the promise and blessing given to him. Christ's resurrection is the proof that both the Father and the Son completed the test fully in order to uphold His promise to Abraham forever and God indeed provided the Lamb Abraham told Issac about by faith. The fulfillment of this test and obedience by Christ did not come to us by our keeping the law, not even the Ten Commandments. It comes to us who bless and share Abraham's faith.
Thanks for the reply,
I have to totally disagree on the Gentiles are now the Israelites by the grafting process.
I will elaborate further when I get home. Perhaps tomorrow.
God bless.
I agree, that we do not necessarily become Israelites or Jews by the ingrafting done by God. The account of the ingrafting in Romans 11:16-24 speaks pointedly to the root and the first-fruit being holy. This is definitely speaking of Jesus Christ.
This is really a beautiful picture of Christ being the source of the people of Israel (the root). It tells us that Jesus pre-existed the people of Israel, the partiarchs Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. And on backwards through history, tracing Abraham's lineage all the way back to Adam. Jesus was before all things, and He is the holy first-fruit of the Olive Tree people produced from Himself.
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