First of all, there was no inherent stain of sin in the flesh when Adam and Eve were first created. Had Adam and Eve never eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and had children their children would have been unstained by sin, even though they would have been born according to the flesh. If Christ became flesh in the same way Adam did or apart from Adam's will, which alone made sin an inherent part of him, he could be fully flesh and without sin.
Inheritance is passed down from male to male in all ancient societies. Adam is excluded from being a father of Christ passed down by natural inheritance because He was held responsible for the fall and bore responsibility for Eve, who only existed through Adam. Adam was her head under God. Eve on the other hand is promised a woman like her without the natural right of headship or inheritance will bear a seed like Adam's, but unlike all other sons she will bear, he must be her son alone and must establish a new headship directly under God that was never under Adam's headship in order to establish a new lineage free of Adam's sin.
Christ is our second Adam. He is fully man come in the flesh in the likeness and image of God without sin like Adam originally was and not subject to Adam's sin or headship. The minimum I cay about Christ's genes is that His Y chromosome, which made him male, was directly from God's Spirit, not from Mary, and never passed down from Adam's Y chromosome through any sexual act or act of human will that could tranmit Adam's sin in the exercise of Adam's will to Christ's flesh. Since Christ is a male, that grants him the same rights of headship and inheritance that Adam had over Eve that He can pass on to all who are born of His Spirit through the woman created for Him and through Him by God that is subject to His headship, His church. His flesh is our salvation and His Spirit is our inheritance. Separate one from the other and all of us are still in our sins from Adam.
So, creatures are not to say to the potter "Why hast thou made me like this? ( Romans 9:20-24) Who are we to question God's purpose or wisdom ( Job 38-41:6). We just need to be humble like Job, accepting Who God really is by studying His nature, essential nature and acts from the Word and also from the writings of those who have studied this topic over the ages.
Tozer, "The Knowledge of the Holy" is a good read on Who God Is. Packer is another. The early church fathers are other writers that can help us understand what Scripture teaches us about the God we worship.
The more I train my mind on discovering the excellencies of God, the more humble I become and the more readily I accept His wisdom, purposes and plans as being perfect, holy, righteous, unfathomable, and praiseworthy. I can live with knowing that God created angels and humans with the ability to sin. I can live with knowing that He indeed creating us and angels with the inevitability that sin would begin at some point in some angels and in all humans. I can live with the knowing that God created some angels and humans with the foreknowledge that these will suffer His wrath forever and other angels and humans will receive His mercy forever. I can live with knowing that the exercise of God's attributes within creation and the manifestation of His glory in all of this is truly good and righteous. I can live with knowing that God humbled Himself in creating anything, in relating to His creatures, and in becoming our Savior in Jesus Christ, because without His condescension in these things, we would never exist not receive salvation, nor know Him personally.
May my life give Him glory as He so well deserves. My only value is in what value I have in Jesus. I am but a big bag of dust and corrupted soul and spirit without the whole Trinity's loving work in me. A true view of God and of myself is really a blessing and well worth pursuing. It is a treasure because it causes us to value God
Wow, Wow, Wow. Wow. Theology like what you've written is tight. Wouldn't suffering for Christ in light of what you've said be hard? Actually, it's super easy. Barely an inconvenience. Just focus on the glory to be revealed. (Thanks ScreenRant Pitch Meetings, the Apostle Paul and of course God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
We believers and the holy angels who never sinned are the direct recipients of this marvelous benevolence. God created in order to redeem us to benefit us, not Himself. Conversely, unbelievers and the sinful angels are the direct recipients of his fearful wrath and judgment. God created in order to exercise His righteousness and justice for both groups. God 's nature is active self-existence. He acts and is always acting. Therefore, He is always expressing all of His attributes as a display of His glory.
So, when we consider just these small number of attributes of God, we can understand why the plan of salvation was decided before the creation of the world, before there was any need for this group of attributes to be expressed outwards. The plan of salvation is the big picture when considering the purpose of creation, especially of beings that have the freedom of volition in regards to self-rule or God ruled, obedience or disobedience. Creation was necessary for the plan of salvation to become a reality. It needed time and space and matter and creatures that can know God (angels and humans) and those creatures who are not capable of knowing God through faith and reason (animals). It needed angels who could sin and those who did not, as God's salvation is not extended to fallen angels. God in His perfect and infinite wisdom decided this when the plan of salvation was willed within the Godhead.
In thinking of this, we may think of humans and angels and animals as "pawns" for God to do with as He wishes. It is true that God can do with His creation and creatures as He wills, but His will is never evil, selfish, nor unloving. So, I think we who are believers and the objects of God's mercy should accept that we just cannot know God in the internal council of the Godhead. that is an area that is off limits to us as creatures.
Here I will explain my speculation based on my study on Who God Is (for the past 4 months), although I have studied Him in depth before.
In my study I have learned that God is eternally self-sufficient and self-satisfied within Himself. Therefore, He is in need of nothing outside that He Himself cannot supply within the Godhead. He draws nothing he needs from outside of Himself. Paul speaks to this in Acts 17:23-25 So, I learned that God does not need us to be happy or for survival. to receive love, or to be complete.
I also learned that God created everything in accordance to His own volition, in order to display His glory, and because it pleased Him to do so. ( Rev. 4:11 for example). It is part of God's nature to manifest the glory of His Being. Before creation, many aspects of His essential Being were manifested within the relationships among the persons of the Trinity. However, there was no need for God to manifest the glory of His mercy, grace, compassion, wrath, justice, nor judgment before creation because there was no sin within the Godhead, no degradation in need of reclamation, no broken fellowship to be reconciled, no death to be resurrected.
Yet, God possessed these qualities mentioned and so, being Who He is created to give expression to these qualities.
He created all things to display His power, glory, and wisdom as a creative Being, but mostly, He created to express mercy, grace, compassion, wrath, justice, and judgment through the plan of the ages which is all about benevolent redemption and wrathful judgment. To us, it may seem somewhat cold to think of God this way and especially about His reasons for creating
rational beings. But we, as mere creatures cannot fathom the depths of God's love nor wisdom.
God is not self-absorbed, conceited, nor narcissistic. He expresses Himself through His holy and faultess will to the benefit of the objects of His generous benevolence. I will continue in part 3.
I agree that Adam and Eve were not created with inherent sinful nature. The Bible does not support the view that they were created already fallen. I do believe that God created both angelic beings and human beings with the a nature that has the freedom to choose to obey God or disobey. Therefore, they were made "able to sin". This freedom means also that angels and humans can choose to rule by their own will of be ruled by God's will.
God, in His wisdom according to His eternal purpose for creation, designed this option into His "plan of the ages" which was, He created for the purpose of salvation of being He created. Therefore, the ability to sin, and the inevitability of it, were a necessary part of His purpose for creating beings He planned to be in relationship with after creation. Whereas, prior to creation, the was (and is) perfect relationship within the Persons of the Godhead.
Creation does not affect this internal relationship in the Godhead. But it does affect the Godhead's external relationship to His creation and creatures (both spiritual and physical).
God's essential nature is infinitely complete and full. He never changes in His character. He never adds or subtracts anything necessary in his Being. So, such attributes as mercy, grace, compassion, and wrath, justice, judgment have always existed in God's essence. He did not acquire these from outside of Himself nor create them inside of Himself when the angels and man sinned.
So, this begs the question-"Why did God create knowing His created beings will sin by self-will and disobedience? I am sure that there may be many explanations for this, but I do not think that the Scriptures clearly tell us. So, any explanation would be a speculation based on what we know about God and what He has said about the plan to save sinful humans, but not sinful angels.
In my next post (Part 2) I will explain my speculation (or educated guess, so to speak).
Very well put, Jesus was the second man and the last Adam, same as the first before the first disobeyed the commandment that God gave him, and his one sin brought the penalty of death upon mankind. Just like the first Adam, the last Adam (Jesus) was capable of sinning if He chose to but He did not. If Jesus came and lived in the flesh and was not capable of sinning as His Father, He could not have fulfilled the law and the first covenant, Hebrews 4:15
Then, how is He touched with the feelings of our infirmities, if He could never really sin?
Thank you for affirming what I wrote and expanding upon it. I fully agree with your point that Christ had to be flesh and human in the same way Adam to deliver us from our bandage to sin that Adam brought upon our race. Christ's perfect submission to God's will had to be a genuine human act in order to defeat Satan's temptations and the curse the serpent brought upon our race. The serpent had to be able to inflict real damage to Christ's flesh in the bruising of his heal, so that He could crush Satan's head in the resurrection of that damaged flesh, robbing Satan of all his powers of death (kill, i.e. the rich man that ignored Lazarus ultimately died in the midst of his pursuits of pleasure without ever overcoming Satan's deceptions), the grave (steal, i.e. the rich man was buried which was the last time his earthly wealth was spent on his earthly life and his soul was rendered as naked as the day he was born) and hell (destroy, i.e. the eternal torment of the rich man that can never know relief, because he never loved to God or his neighbor and never listened to either of them, even though he knew about both of them). Christ had to overcame real temptations from Satan appealing to the lust of His flesh (miraculously make bread to stop your hunger), last of His eyes (He could have everything could put before His eyes in this world if He betrayed God to worship Satan) and boastful pride of life (jump from a height that would kill anyone else so You can show off your power over angelic beings). To the last Christ was aware that He could call on angels to prevent His flesh from experiencing, His eyes from seeing and His earthly pride from the humiliation of His being arrested, mocked, beaten, stripped naked, and nailed to the cross, even to the point of being taken down from the cross at the last minute to shut the mouth of unbelievers, but the only thing He authorized angels to do that day was carry a believing thief to paradise to be with Him
I agreed with what you posted on the flesh Jesus was born in, the same as the first Adam, without the stain of sin which comes the penalty of death. Jesus started just like the first Adam and as the first Adam being pure without sin and death had no hold on him, he could obey or disobey. He chose to disobey; the last Adam chose to obey.
When God made the covenant with Israel, it was a covenant of works, obeying the commandments of God that Adam failed to do. Because of Adam's sin, we are born corrupt and cannot please God apart from grace. For this covenant to be fulfilled a man had to live his entire life without sin, a perfect life. Jesus was not only tempted by Satan He was tempted as you and I, His entire life, Hebrews 2:14-18
If Jesus was incapable of sinning, the fulfillment of the law and the covenant would be a farce.
The other part of your reply involves Luke 16, and the thief next to Jesus, I am sorry I do not agree, my understanding is different.
What you said, "at the last minute to shut the mouth of unbelievers" He did. If we look at John 8:24-28, we see in Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Their mouths were shut.
I agree I failed to properly account for all the things angels were authorized to do when I pointed out what they weren't authorized to do. Signs did occur that shut the mouth of unbelievers, as You pointed out. I would agree that those signs can be added to the list of things Christ and the Father authorized angels to do on that day in addition to bearing the thief to paradise. Probably the last 3 hours of darkness that occurred was also produced by angelic means. They ministered to Him in the garden as well when he prayed. So I agree I need to expand my statement about what angels were authorized to do to signify that Jesus was the Christ on that day, and there is probably more I've overlooked.
My statement was meant only to be taken in connection with the statement by the mockers that Christ had to save Himself and come down from the cross by angelic means for them to believe His claims were true and Christ's statement that He merely had to ask His Father for an angelic army to prevent what was about to happen, but He wouldn't so that the scriptures would be fulfilled. I don't see any angelic interventions in the events surrounding Christ's crucifixion that were designed to prevent or deliver Christ from suffering and dying on the cross.
If I had the kind of power that Christ had at His disposal merely by asking for it, but I had to resist the temptation to use it and not save myself from such sufferings ending in death, were my fallen nature to have had any say in the matter, I couldn't have seen it through to the end like Christ did.
After rereading the passages you pointed out about shutting the mouths of not only the Centurion, but those with Him, I see why you took issue with what I wrote. I had only thought it was only the Centurion that said that, probably from watching Hollywood's version of the crucifixion. Live and learn. Who knew Hollywood makes historically inaccurate movies? ;)
Some say, in order to know our weakness of flesh (infirmities) He needed to be able to sin but to always choose against it, facing every temptation with a spirit, mind and will doing his Father's will.
Others say that, because of He was divinity in uncorrupted human flesh, He was not able to sin because no member of the Godhead is ever capable of sinning. And since the humanity and divinity of Jesus was a union that did not mix the two natures but existed in only one single Person, this union made Jesus unable to sin because in every act, thought, word of Jesus it was this unified nature that did these acts, thoughts, words. If Jesus did something in His human nature by this union, the divine nature did it also. If Jesus did something in His divine nature then His human nature did it, too, bcause of this union. When Jesus walked on water, His divine nature was performing the act, but Jesus the God/Man did the action without separating into two persons. When Jesus was hungry (strictly a human feeling and need) because of this union both God and Man hungered.
Still, some also say that God the Son emptied Himself of His divinity in the incarnation, (referring to Philippians 5:2-8 and therefore Jesus did everything as a human fully empowered by the Holy Spirit. In this view, Jesus was able to sin, being only human.
Personally, I do not believe this reasoning, because the whole of Scripture refutes it. Instead, I believe that the God the Son humbled himself by laying aside His glory and did not operate out of his divine powers outside of the will of God. Though He was equal to the Father and the Spirit, He chose to subordinate Himself to the Father, becoming the servant of the Father, but retained His full deity in the incarnation as well as being fully human.
For me, this is somewhat of a mystery. My first two views presented here are both plausible. I am not convinced on one over the other. The third view I wholly reject.
Thank you for replying, you do a lot of good on this site, and the care and love you show towards the people on this site, you wear your heart on your sleeve, I contemplated on how to answer. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus the only begotten Son of God, but maybe with a different understanding. We with our human minds, at times, take simplicity and complicate it until it becomes a mystery, something difficult or impossible to understand or explain.
The first two views you listed, if my understanding is correct, Jesus was unable to choose to disobey or was not able to sin. A covenant is a contract made between two parties, God and man.
In the covenant of works, is a conditional covenant, the condition to be accepted and ratified by man, obedience to the law of God, and also an inward heart-observance of complete holiness, itself the law. Perfect obedience and righteousness had to be performed to the whole Law by man under the same trials, and temptations as we. If any part of Jesus forbade Jesus from being able to sin, He could not have fulfilled the law and the covenant of works.
You said, "when Jesus walked on water, His divine nature was performing the act". Not to be belligerent, but Peter also walked on the water until he got scared and Jesus scorned him for his lack of faith. We may also be partakers of the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:3-4
To be clear, my previous comment are only meant to correct the error that asserts that Christ was not fully man as originally created, or that asserts that Jesus could not come in the flesh without being sinful. I agree with the doctrine that Christ is fully man (prior to the fall) and fully God in the mystery of the hypostatic union. These two complete natures exist in Christ as a single individual. In so far as anything I have said can be taken as a contradiction or denial of that doctrine, that is not my intention and my comments should not be taken as a full defense of the doctrine. My comments are subject to correction should it be shown that I chose my words or expressed myself poorly on this long debated subject.
Good job explaining the nature of Jesus as being fully God and fully man in one person. Two natures in one Person-divine and human.
From my studies, this is classically taught and affirmed as completely orthodox. Also, part of that orthodox teaching says that the two natures of Jesus are united but not mixed together to form a one new nature. The hypo static Union is a centuries old term used to describe this about Jesus, making Him absolutely unique in all of the history of the world.
I was reading the other day about the Kenosis of Jesus from Philippians 2 (I think) where it speaks concerning Jesus "emptying Himself". This, too, is a doctrine that is hard to understand, too, and is often misconstrued. I'm away from my computer, do when I get back home I can explain this more.
Glad you are here. Rich, your comments are appreciated.
First of all, there was no inherent stain of sin in the flesh when Adam and Eve were first created. Had Adam and Eve never eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and had children their children would have been unstained by sin, even though they would have been born according to the flesh. If Christ became flesh in the same way Adam did or apart from Adam's will, which alone made sin an inherent part of him, he could be fully flesh and without sin.
Inheritance is passed down from male to male in all ancient societies. Adam is excluded from being a father of Christ passed down by natural inheritance because He was held responsible for the fall and bore responsibility for Eve, who only existed through Adam. Adam was her head under God. Eve on the other hand is promised a woman like her without the natural right of headship or inheritance will bear a seed like Adam's, but unlike all other sons she will bear, he must be her son alone and must establish a new headship directly under God that was never under Adam's headship in order to establish a new lineage free of Adam's sin.
Christ is our second Adam. He is fully man come in the flesh in the likeness and image of God without sin like Adam originally was and not subject to Adam's sin or headship. The minimum I cay about Christ's genes is that His Y chromosome, which made him male, was directly from God's Spirit, not from Mary, and never passed down from Adam's Y chromosome through any sexual act or act of human will that could tranmit Adam's sin in the exercise of Adam's will to Christ's flesh. Since Christ is a male, that grants him the same rights of headship and inheritance that Adam had over Eve that He can pass on to all who are born of His Spirit through the woman created for Him and through Him by God that is subject to His headship, His church. His flesh is our salvation and His Spirit is our inheritance. Separate one from the other and all of us are still in our sins from Adam.
Part 4
So, creatures are not to say to the potter "Why hast thou made me like this? ( Romans 9:20-24) Who are we to question God's purpose or wisdom ( Job 38-41:6). We just need to be humble like Job, accepting Who God really is by studying His nature, essential nature and acts from the Word and also from the writings of those who have studied this topic over the ages.
Tozer, "The Knowledge of the Holy" is a good read on Who God Is. Packer is another. The early church fathers are other writers that can help us understand what Scripture teaches us about the God we worship.
The more I train my mind on discovering the excellencies of God, the more humble I become and the more readily I accept His wisdom, purposes and plans as being perfect, holy, righteous, unfathomable, and praiseworthy. I can live with knowing that God created angels and humans with the ability to sin. I can live with knowing that He indeed creating us and angels with the inevitability that sin would begin at some point in some angels and in all humans. I can live with the knowing that God created some angels and humans with the foreknowledge that these will suffer His wrath forever and other angels and humans will receive His mercy forever. I can live with knowing that the exercise of God's attributes within creation and the manifestation of His glory in all of this is truly good and righteous. I can live with knowing that God humbled Himself in creating anything, in relating to His creatures, and in becoming our Savior in Jesus Christ, because without His condescension in these things, we would never exist not receive salvation, nor know Him personally.
May my life give Him glory as He so well deserves. My only value is in what value I have in Jesus. I am but a big bag of dust and corrupted soul and spirit without the whole Trinity's loving work in me. A true view of God and of myself is really a blessing and well worth pursuing. It is a treasure because it causes us to value God
Wow, Wow, Wow. Wow. Theology like what you've written is tight. Wouldn't suffering for Christ in light of what you've said be hard? Actually, it's super easy. Barely an inconvenience. Just focus on the glory to be revealed. (Thanks ScreenRant Pitch Meetings, the Apostle Paul and of course God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
Glad you were blessed by my thoughts.
God amazes me.
Part 3
We believers and the holy angels who never sinned are the direct recipients of this marvelous benevolence. God created in order to redeem us to benefit us, not Himself. Conversely, unbelievers and the sinful angels are the direct recipients of his fearful wrath and judgment. God created in order to exercise His righteousness and justice for both groups. God 's nature is active self-existence. He acts and is always acting. Therefore, He is always expressing all of His attributes as a display of His glory.
So, when we consider just these small number of attributes of God, we can understand why the plan of salvation was decided before the creation of the world, before there was any need for this group of attributes to be expressed outwards. The plan of salvation is the big picture when considering the purpose of creation, especially of beings that have the freedom of volition in regards to self-rule or God ruled, obedience or disobedience. Creation was necessary for the plan of salvation to become a reality. It needed time and space and matter and creatures that can know God (angels and humans) and those creatures who are not capable of knowing God through faith and reason (animals). It needed angels who could sin and those who did not, as God's salvation is not extended to fallen angels. God in His perfect and infinite wisdom decided this when the plan of salvation was willed within the Godhead.
In thinking of this, we may think of humans and angels and animals as "pawns" for God to do with as He wishes. It is true that God can do with His creation and creatures as He wills, but His will is never evil, selfish, nor unloving. So, I think we who are believers and the objects of God's mercy should accept that we just cannot know God in the internal council of the Godhead. that is an area that is off limits to us as creatures.
I will finish in part 4
Part 2
Here I will explain my speculation based on my study on Who God Is (for the past 4 months), although I have studied Him in depth before.
In my study I have learned that God is eternally self-sufficient and self-satisfied within Himself. Therefore, He is in need of nothing outside that He Himself cannot supply within the Godhead. He draws nothing he needs from outside of Himself. Paul speaks to this in Acts 17:23-25 So, I learned that God does not need us to be happy or for survival. to receive love, or to be complete.
I also learned that God created everything in accordance to His own volition, in order to display His glory, and because it pleased Him to do so. ( Rev. 4:11 for example). It is part of God's nature to manifest the glory of His Being. Before creation, many aspects of His essential Being were manifested within the relationships among the persons of the Trinity. However, there was no need for God to manifest the glory of His mercy, grace, compassion, wrath, justice, nor judgment before creation because there was no sin within the Godhead, no degradation in need of reclamation, no broken fellowship to be reconciled, no death to be resurrected.
Yet, God possessed these qualities mentioned and so, being Who He is created to give expression to these qualities.
He created all things to display His power, glory, and wisdom as a creative Being, but mostly, He created to express mercy, grace, compassion, wrath, justice, and judgment through the plan of the ages which is all about benevolent redemption and wrathful judgment. To us, it may seem somewhat cold to think of God this way and especially about His reasons for creating
rational beings. But we, as mere creatures cannot fathom the depths of God's love nor wisdom.
God is not self-absorbed, conceited, nor narcissistic. He expresses Himself through His holy and faultess will to the benefit of the objects of His generous benevolence. I will continue in part 3.
Part 1
I agree that Adam and Eve were not created with inherent sinful nature. The Bible does not support the view that they were created already fallen. I do believe that God created both angelic beings and human beings with the a nature that has the freedom to choose to obey God or disobey. Therefore, they were made "able to sin". This freedom means also that angels and humans can choose to rule by their own will of be ruled by God's will.
God, in His wisdom according to His eternal purpose for creation, designed this option into His "plan of the ages" which was, He created for the purpose of salvation of being He created. Therefore, the ability to sin, and the inevitability of it, were a necessary part of His purpose for creating beings He planned to be in relationship with after creation. Whereas, prior to creation, the was (and is) perfect relationship within the Persons of the Godhead.
Creation does not affect this internal relationship in the Godhead. But it does affect the Godhead's external relationship to His creation and creatures (both spiritual and physical).
God's essential nature is infinitely complete and full. He never changes in His character. He never adds or subtracts anything necessary in his Being. So, such attributes as mercy, grace, compassion, and wrath, justice, judgment have always existed in God's essence. He did not acquire these from outside of Himself nor create them inside of Himself when the angels and man sinned.
So, this begs the question-"Why did God create knowing His created beings will sin by self-will and disobedience? I am sure that there may be many explanations for this, but I do not think that the Scriptures clearly tell us. So, any explanation would be a speculation based on what we know about God and what He has said about the plan to save sinful humans, but not sinful angels.
In my next post (Part 2) I will explain my speculation (or educated guess, so to speak).
Very well put, Jesus was the second man and the last Adam, same as the first before the first disobeyed the commandment that God gave him, and his one sin brought the penalty of death upon mankind. Just like the first Adam, the last Adam (Jesus) was capable of sinning if He chose to but He did not. If Jesus came and lived in the flesh and was not capable of sinning as His Father, He could not have fulfilled the law and the first covenant, Hebrews 4:15
Then, how is He touched with the feelings of our infirmities, if He could never really sin?
God bless,
RLW
Thank you for affirming what I wrote and expanding upon it. I fully agree with your point that Christ had to be flesh and human in the same way Adam to deliver us from our bandage to sin that Adam brought upon our race. Christ's perfect submission to God's will had to be a genuine human act in order to defeat Satan's temptations and the curse the serpent brought upon our race. The serpent had to be able to inflict real damage to Christ's flesh in the bruising of his heal, so that He could crush Satan's head in the resurrection of that damaged flesh, robbing Satan of all his powers of death (kill, i.e. the rich man that ignored Lazarus ultimately died in the midst of his pursuits of pleasure without ever overcoming Satan's deceptions), the grave (steal, i.e. the rich man was buried which was the last time his earthly wealth was spent on his earthly life and his soul was rendered as naked as the day he was born) and hell (destroy, i.e. the eternal torment of the rich man that can never know relief, because he never loved to God or his neighbor and never listened to either of them, even though he knew about both of them). Christ had to overcame real temptations from Satan appealing to the lust of His flesh (miraculously make bread to stop your hunger), last of His eyes (He could have everything could put before His eyes in this world if He betrayed God to worship Satan) and boastful pride of life (jump from a height that would kill anyone else so You can show off your power over angelic beings). To the last Christ was aware that He could call on angels to prevent His flesh from experiencing, His eyes from seeing and His earthly pride from the humiliation of His being arrested, mocked, beaten, stripped naked, and nailed to the cross, even to the point of being taken down from the cross at the last minute to shut the mouth of unbelievers, but the only thing He authorized angels to do that day was carry a believing thief to paradise to be with Him
I agreed with what you posted on the flesh Jesus was born in, the same as the first Adam, without the stain of sin which comes the penalty of death. Jesus started just like the first Adam and as the first Adam being pure without sin and death had no hold on him, he could obey or disobey. He chose to disobey; the last Adam chose to obey.
When God made the covenant with Israel, it was a covenant of works, obeying the commandments of God that Adam failed to do. Because of Adam's sin, we are born corrupt and cannot please God apart from grace. For this covenant to be fulfilled a man had to live his entire life without sin, a perfect life. Jesus was not only tempted by Satan He was tempted as you and I, His entire life, Hebrews 2:14-18
If Jesus was incapable of sinning, the fulfillment of the law and the covenant would be a farce.
The other part of your reply involves Luke 16, and the thief next to Jesus, I am sorry I do not agree, my understanding is different.
What you said, "at the last minute to shut the mouth of unbelievers" He did. If we look at John 8:24-28, we see in Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Their mouths were shut.
God bless,
RLW
My statement was meant only to be taken in connection with the statement by the mockers that Christ had to save Himself and come down from the cross by angelic means for them to believe His claims were true and Christ's statement that He merely had to ask His Father for an angelic army to prevent what was about to happen, but He wouldn't so that the scriptures would be fulfilled. I don't see any angelic interventions in the events surrounding Christ's crucifixion that were designed to prevent or deliver Christ from suffering and dying on the cross.
If I had the kind of power that Christ had at His disposal merely by asking for it, but I had to resist the temptation to use it and not save myself from such sufferings ending in death, were my fallen nature to have had any say in the matter, I couldn't have seen it through to the end like Christ did.
After rereading the passages you pointed out about shutting the mouths of not only the Centurion, but those with Him, I see why you took issue with what I wrote. I had only thought it was only the Centurion that said that, probably from watching Hollywood's version of the crucifixion. Live and learn. Who knew Hollywood makes historically inaccurate movies? ;)
[Comment Removed]
Some say, in order to know our weakness of flesh (infirmities) He needed to be able to sin but to always choose against it, facing every temptation with a spirit, mind and will doing his Father's will.
Others say that, because of He was divinity in uncorrupted human flesh, He was not able to sin because no member of the Godhead is ever capable of sinning. And since the humanity and divinity of Jesus was a union that did not mix the two natures but existed in only one single Person, this union made Jesus unable to sin because in every act, thought, word of Jesus it was this unified nature that did these acts, thoughts, words. If Jesus did something in His human nature by this union, the divine nature did it also. If Jesus did something in His divine nature then His human nature did it, too, bcause of this union. When Jesus walked on water, His divine nature was performing the act, but Jesus the God/Man did the action without separating into two persons. When Jesus was hungry (strictly a human feeling and need) because of this union both God and Man hungered.
Still, some also say that God the Son emptied Himself of His divinity in the incarnation, (referring to Philippians 5:2-8 and therefore Jesus did everything as a human fully empowered by the Holy Spirit. In this view, Jesus was able to sin, being only human.
Personally, I do not believe this reasoning, because the whole of Scripture refutes it. Instead, I believe that the God the Son humbled himself by laying aside His glory and did not operate out of his divine powers outside of the will of God. Though He was equal to the Father and the Spirit, He chose to subordinate Himself to the Father, becoming the servant of the Father, but retained His full deity in the incarnation as well as being fully human.
For me, this is somewhat of a mystery. My first two views presented here are both plausible. I am not convinced on one over the other. The third view I wholly reject.
Thank you for replying, you do a lot of good on this site, and the care and love you show towards the people on this site, you wear your heart on your sleeve, I contemplated on how to answer. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus the only begotten Son of God, but maybe with a different understanding. We with our human minds, at times, take simplicity and complicate it until it becomes a mystery, something difficult or impossible to understand or explain.
The first two views you listed, if my understanding is correct, Jesus was unable to choose to disobey or was not able to sin. A covenant is a contract made between two parties, God and man.
In the covenant of works, is a conditional covenant, the condition to be accepted and ratified by man, obedience to the law of God, and also an inward heart-observance of complete holiness, itself the law. Perfect obedience and righteousness had to be performed to the whole Law by man under the same trials, and temptations as we. If any part of Jesus forbade Jesus from being able to sin, He could not have fulfilled the law and the covenant of works.
You said, "when Jesus walked on water, His divine nature was performing the act". Not to be belligerent, but Peter also walked on the water until he got scared and Jesus scorned him for his lack of faith. We may also be partakers of the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:3-4
God bless,
RLW
Good job explaining the nature of Jesus as being fully God and fully man in one person. Two natures in one Person-divine and human.
From my studies, this is classically taught and affirmed as completely orthodox. Also, part of that orthodox teaching says that the two natures of Jesus are united but not mixed together to form a one new nature. The hypo static Union is a centuries old term used to describe this about Jesus, making Him absolutely unique in all of the history of the world.
I was reading the other day about the Kenosis of Jesus from Philippians 2 (I think) where it speaks concerning Jesus "emptying Himself". This, too, is a doctrine that is hard to understand, too, and is often misconstrued. I'm away from my computer, do when I get back home I can explain this more.
Glad you are here. Rich, your comments are appreciated.
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