Bible Discussion Thread

(Not duplicate-all duplicate posts removed)

I believe that 1 Peter 3:19-22 is a chiasm (inverted parallelism) which is common in the Psalms and Hebrew expressions that are intended to be memorized / memorable. He is addressing suffering Christians and wants to encourage them to patiently endure that suffering by likening their experience to what God did with Noah, but shows that it happens in an inverted order. Here is how I see it laid out.

The like figure whereunto

(Salvation of a chosen few from a wicked generation by water)

wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

even baptism doth also now save us

(Preparation/Santification)

while the ark was a preparing,

(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection

(God's patience based on a chosen one)

when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,

of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;

(Vindication)

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,

angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I believe Peter's audience needed to endure through days that he wanted to liken to the days of Noah for encouragement. Baptism is a source of encouragement and the easiest parallel to draw from the passage, but I believe he intended his audience to draw more encouragement than just that. If you don't agree and think I'm pushing this text beyond what it is meant to say, or if you think I've grouped things illogically, lets discuss it.

Now that I have written out the structure and had time to think about it more fully, I think I should eliminate the santification parallel. The portion in parenthesis in that step for the case of believers today is explanatory for what the Apostle means by baptism saving us and does calirfy that it isn't the normal outward effects of water upon our bodies that saves, but an inward spiritual cleansing of the conscience by the imputed righteousness of Christ. While that leads to santification, it doesn't seem like he has that in view here, and my division was incorrect.

Rather than throwing out everything, because I have admitted my own fallability, I want to lay it out as three parallels.

The like figure whereunto

(Salvation of a chosen few from a wicked generation by water)

wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

(God's patience during preparations made by a chosen one)

when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;

(Vindication)

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,

angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Additionally, Peter is using a figure and all figures (or types and antitypes) are limited. So I believe he is intentionally limiting himself to parallels he sees between the type and the antitype, rather than expounding his full views on all that Christ has done for us. Turning this passage into the one and only proof text for any theory of baptism or salvation that is not supported elsewhere in the New Testament or that nullifies other passages that clearly were written to deal with these topics more fully should not be taken as his intention. That goes for all typology.

I looked at your use of chiasmus to expound this passage ( 1 Peter 3:19-21), & rather than question its use at this point, I'd rather just re-look that the whole passage & its primary subject. You shared in you previous comment, "He is addressing suffering Christians and wants to encourage them to patiently endure that suffering by likening their experience to what God did with Noah, but shows that it happens in an inverted order."

I accept that Suffering is clearly one of Peter's main subjects, as we read in earlier chapters, & in chapter 3, I see that 'the suffering Christian' topic restarts at verse 13, "And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?"

Without considering inverted parallelism, I note that in this passage, Peter begins to encourage believers to be joyful, if their suffering comes because of them being righteous; that this is God's Will that they suffer for doing well rather than for doing wrong. And then Peter uses Jesus as his example of righteous suffering, though being killed in the flesh, He was made alive by the Spirit. So, if Jesus too had to suffer at the hands of wicked men for doing no wrong, they should not think that their sufferings should be unexpected. ( 2 Timothy 3:12).

And then from vv 19-21, I regard as a parenthetical narrative that Peter builds upon from verse 18, "but quickened by the Spirit"; that it was by this Spirit that Jesus preached to those held captive. Peter then deals with who those captives were, God's Patience, the righteous taken in the Ark, & the water that bore them to safety being the same medium in baptism that gives the believer a peace & satisfaction in conscience in salvation's work. With Noah, he didn't know where the Ark would end up, but he knew that his God Who brought them all thus far, would not fail them in the end. And baptism should bring the same mind: one of peace in God's Salvation & confidence that all is well now & to the end.

I can't sense the need for chiasmus.

That Christ's entry into heaven and sitting at the right hand of God is a time of preparation I take from John 14:1-4 and Psalm 110:1. The fact that Psalm 110:1 has escaped your attention in all that you have said tells me you are missing something critical to Peter's encouragement. In Matthew 22:41-46 Jesus put an end to the Pharises testing questions with this verse and his question to them. I think at minimum the Psalm 110 reference is plainly in Peter's view and is a definite source of comfort to suffering Christians, whose enemies will ultimately be placed under Christ's feet as His footstool.

In my view these two passages I just mentioned relate to both God's patience and Christ's patience in sitting at the Father's right hand. Until the Father has completed His preparations, the final judgement of our age will not occur. But suffering Christians are awaiting that with Christ. To begin and end with the comfort of baptism is not all there is to cling to for those enduring true continuing and unrelenting injustice and suffering. The ultimate triumph of Christ's power over His enemies is also in view here. The spiritual realm being placed in subjection first signifies more is to come.

I take comfort in that, particularly for brothers in countries that have real persecution of Christians. They know the promise of baptism, but they also look forward to and will know vindication when the Father has brought all things in subjection to Christ in His full triumph over all of His enemies.

The salvation Noah experienced was the actual sweeping away of the wicked through the flood. Baptism, like in the case of Noah or the Israelites crossing the Red Sea, promises triumph over and final separation from the wicked and our enemies that we can be assured will actually occur through Psalm 110:1 (and the rest of that Psalm).

I misspoke and said verse 20 instead of verse 22. I had always seen the idea of preparation and waiting in verse 20 before, but I hadn't see it in verse 22 until our discussion.

Thanks Rich. I fully concur with your thoughts as you took in 1 Peter 3:22 as well. I avoided considering that verse in the light of what was being discussed, inverted parallelism & its need in those particular verses 20 & 21.

Yes indeed, believers then, as now, can take great comfort that even though identification with Christ in baptism & their Christian witness brought them before wicked accusing minds & actions, their real joy & confidence lay in the completed Work of Jesus seated now at the Father's right Hand, under Whose authority all men & spirits are subject. Truly, "weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning".

For me personally, laying out the parallelism as I have is actually what allowed me to see aspects of Verse 20 as a period of preparation and waiting and also prior to that I myself overlooked Psalm 110:1 and it's importance as a possible source of comfort.

I know you continue to say inverse parallelism is not necessary to understand the verse, and it may not be for people like yourself. But the things I wrote about regarding Psalm 110:1 did not come from anything you wrote about the verse and the importance of that reference never occurred to me prior to laying the verse out as I had. I doubt I would ever have been able to see or express those ideas as clearly or as confidently as I just did without viewing these 4 verses in this way, since I never had before. Additionally, Free's comment suggests that he gained new insights by considering the verse as I had laid it out that he had previously not considered. So from my perspective it has not been unprofitable to view the verses in this light, even if it is not necessary for others like you to do so.

Still I have to also consider that without our discussions on this verse I might have missed the Psalm 110:1 connection as well, since that also inspired me to trace out ideas that were only a vaguely expressed intuition about that aspect of the verse before. So iron continues to sharpen iron, and brothers coming at a verse from different perspectives can lead to a greater shared understanding through a respectful discussion, even if both continue to differ in their approaches. That is comforting to me as well.

So I have no problem with you continuing to say chiasmus is unnecessary for these verses, since we are agreed that Peter's teaching on baptism are a great source of comfort for suffering Christians, both in its internal comfort with regard to their consciences and the assurance it brings that the external forces opposing them can be endured with a certain hope for the future that they will prevail.

Hi and thanks for the nice words. there was nothing stopping me from reading and understanding what you wrote. It was a good angle to put it that way. Never thought of that before. But water baptism has been in a light of necessity for me all my life and is important. To be on the safe side. :)

Good luck and be blessed with word from Philemon 1:1-7

Thank you for your comment. There is no doubt we should all take encouragement from the parallel Peter draws between the salvation of Noah and his household through the flood and the salvation we as believers each receive through water baptism.

I would only say that in this context Peter is not focused primarily on the baptism of a single individual, but is viewing baptism as a distinguishing characteristic of the household of believers being saved by this critical component of the great commission. All of the other parallels, in my view, call us to look beyond just ourselves and our individual experiences of santification, God's patience, and vindication. These are things all of those who make up God's true church must share in and continue until the great commission is fulfilled. That is why the great commission and Christ's presence with those that carry it out is promised to last even until the end of the age.

I believe Peter's message is that any sufferings we experience and endure that are in service of Christ and that God permits are carried out in service of the great commission as well. When we are able to see that the sufferings you, I or any of our brothers and sisters endure in this manner continue to unite us to Christ and God's larger plan for this age, the Holy Spirit can use that as a real source of encouragement.