Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • ALvin Kamberi - 2 years ago
    Christians must forsake all wealth( Luke 14:33 Jesus says forsake it all)

    Christians cannot work for money( Matthew 6:24)

    Christians do Not pay taxes (Render to Caesar what is his and to God what belongs to Him, what belongs to God?)

    Christians travel and trust in God for daily food(Mathew 6:20-33) that's what makes them different from all the world.

    Christians live together 24/7 ( Acts 4:34-35) sharing everything in common( Acts 2:44-45).

    Christians give to the needy in secret(Matthw 6)

    Women can be leaders in the church but it is beter that all be as brothers and sisters.

    If you are a Christian you own nothing in this world, as Paul says, and you are homeless as he says also, and you are the rags of this world, as Paul says. Choose Poverty not Wealth! Make Peace not War!

    Christians are nonviolent ( Matthew 5:44-45).

    Christians forgive as much as they can.
  • GiGi again - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Alvin, when you stated that Jesus told rich people to sell all that they have, this was not a blanket statement he made to

    every rich person. It was specific to certain people who inquired of Him what they must do to obtain eternal life or to satisfy the

    commandments. I think that he stated this in order to challenge these people in the area that had the most hold on their hearts.

    If someone has a boyfriend. girlfriend, spouse, children, job, material items that are most precious to this person, Jesus

    challenges us to be willing to forsake these if needed to follow Him. But this does not mean that it is needed for ALL to forsake

    these things.

    Abraham was blessed by God with great wealth for his time. He also was given much influence among the people around him.

    This was true of his son, Isaac, as well. David was blessed with even greater wealth and power as king of a united Israel.

    Neither of these people needed to forsake these rich blessings for God. But with Solomon, who was blessed even more than

    David with wealth and luxury, these things led him into corruption and idolatry. So, he would have been wise to forsake these

    things for God and pursued God wholeheartedly. Being rich is neither good nor evil, just as being poor is neutral, also. It is how

    we live out our situation that matters-that we do all for the glory of God and keep our heart as David-a man after God's own

    heart.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    OK my brother lets take it from the begining

    Christians must forsake wealth. Yes and no. What Luke 14:33 says in simple wordords is that we must put away anything that becomes obstacle in our way to Heaven. That maybe wealth, a person, my own plans for life, my desires etc. IF THEY ARE OBSTACLES, IF NEEDED.

    Christians cannot work for money Not right. See Thessalonians 3:11-12, Acts 20:33-35, 2 Thessalonians 3:10 etc.

    Christians do Not pay taxes. Not right. See Romans 13:6-7

    Christians travel and trust in God for daily food. Not right. Where do you get that travel? Birds fly all the time because this is how they find food, they just not sit on a branch expecting for food to drop from heaven. the same with people, they must go and find a job and work (and God will help them), they should not sit on their bench expecting God rains money from above. Yes trust that God that will not let us down to meet our material needs.

    Christians live together 24/7. Ye and no. That was the case in the Jewish christian church, BUT it was not in the gentile churches in Thessalonika, Berea, Corinth, Ephesus...

    Christians give to the needy in secret. Thats right

    Women can be leaders in the church . Not quite. The Ancient church did not allow women to teach or preach. See 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. And if somebody argues that Paul was oldfashioned like the whole world at that time, well as far as i am concerned i wouldn't dare disagree to apostle Paul.

    If you are a Christian you own nothing in this world. Not right. So far in the history of Christianity there have been the medieval gospels of poverty and nowadays gospels of prosperity. They are both wrong. The Christian is a normal balanced person. We live just like aill the other people but without sin and not forgetting that our citizeshipis is in Heaven.

    Christians are nonviolent Thats right

    Christians forgive as much as they can. Thats right. Even our enemies with the power and grace of God

    God bless u
  • Daniel Lindenbaum - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Let me help you out with these two parts brother (by the way, I agree mostly with the above stated because you encourage all to live Holy as Christ ought for us to be):

    "Christians cannot work for money( Matthew 6:24

    Let's take a look at the first statement. Christians cannot work for money. All Christians (although I'll admit - I don't always like doing so) must work/labor. The Apostle Paul worked as a tent maker during his early years preaching. Genesis 3:19 is one curse brought upon man (for the sin man brought into the world) that all men must bare today:

    "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19

    "Christians do Not pay taxes (Render to Caesar what is his and to God what belongs to Him, what belongs to God?)"

    Christ looked at the denarian and realized this is a law of exchange of the world. God know we live in the world but we serve God in His Kingdom. God asked to render unto Caesar (taxes) what belongs to Caesar that all those who live in the world must give to the earthbound kingdom. Then Christ says what is rendered unto him which is to the Eternal Kingdom of God.

    Either one of these may seem desirable but this home is temporary brother. Once we're rejoined with the Lord -- we'll only labor unto him and only render unto Christ Jesus. What a day that will be! I'll see you there and God bless you!
  • Free - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi all dear, now you all talk a lot again. When referring to Timothy about the treatment of church members, it does not agree with paying taxes to the Emperor / King / State. Romans 13 1 Timothy 6:10-12 ALvin Kamberi is right, and all. But The 10 commandments state the importance of what we should worship and honor. God Alone. God must have everything. Colossians 3:12-17 we have no reason to revel and wallow in the riches of the world. Not even Jesus did, though He could fully enjoy all the benefits of the world. He lived soberly and always worshiped God. Gethsemane as described in Luke 22:44 Then He strained so that he sweated blood.

    But we must work with our hands

    Mark 12:17

    Oh, as I wish we Christians could take care of each other, have daily conversations, have daily testimonies, have daily care for each other. Living in a collective. The model was and lives as in the time of the Acts of the Apostles. We have this web then which is a little skin of the real life we should have had :) So I thank you all every day. The apostles sold everything they had and gave to the needy. New members were added daily! Acts 2

    :D In English we say woman and man. I hold that all men stand before God in truth as a Spirit with Him.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    This is an important strategist in how we should live. At that time, it was probably not men's work and women's work that we like and talk about today. We did not come to the hospital to give birth. Even then, they were equal. But then of course the evil came! Take care of yourself, and do not accept what is free, it can be dangerous.

    ohh the space again :D, Jesus loves u all.
  • RichFairhurst - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Your conclusion on taxes is utterly false. Christians pay taxes to whatever government is in authority on earth with whatever earthly money they mint under their authority that bears their image and inscription.

    God is Spirit and has placed His image and inscription (His word) in our hearts not on any earthly money made by man's hands. Therefore we render our souls and worship to God and cannot render that to Ceasar or his money (or any other earthly government's leaders or money).

    Joseph submitted to being registered to pay taxes at Ceasar's decree and only in so doing returned to the city of his ancestral inheritance in Israel under Moses fulfilling God's decree that Mary would give birth to Jesus in Bethlehem. I have no doubt that Mary would have given birth in Bethlehem once she received the angel announcing Christ would be conceived of the Holy Spirit in her womb. But her submission to Joseph who submitted to both angelic dreams and the lawful decree of Ceasar was absolutely critical to Joseph being remembered as having his place in the Gospel.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Alvin, see my response to Kay.
  • Kay - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I must also add, Alvin, that all the leadership roles described in Timothy and Titus are held by men.

    Women have various functions in the body of Christ, but leadership is not one of them according to apostle Paul.

    Blessings!
  • Kay - In Reply - 2 years ago
    "Christians must forsake all wealth"; this is a true statement on a heart-level. We must all hold all that we have very loosely; all we have is from the Lord, and when He asks us to lay it down - we must obey. However, we always must look at the totality of Scripture.

    Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy, and with it, he provided a temporary tomb for our Savior.

    A woman named "Lydia', ( Acts 16), was a 'seller of purple", and obviously a woman successful at her trade, who ministered to the needs of God's saints with her substance.

    There was another woman, named Dorcas ( Acts 9), who used her worldly goods to make provision for the widows.

    Acts 2 speaks to us of Cornelius, who was pious and God-fearing, who, out of his wealth, gave alms to the people.

    It's not a question if we have wealth; the question is: Does wealth have us? Do we look at our blessings as only 'on loan' to us from God, with hearts that are ready to let Him direct how we use it for His glory?

    The above examples did, in their hearts, 'forsake all', for when opportunity to give it away came - they all did so. It's never 'things' that are the problem; it's the place that we give them in our hearts.



    Your comment that, "Christians cannot work for money" is also not correct; Paul the apostle himself would differ with you. I refer you to 2 Thessalonians 3:8-12. Paul himself labored in his trade to provide for himself and those who ministered with him! You'll also see that Paul says if a person does not work - he shouldn't get to eat!!

    Furthermore, in 1 Timothy 5:8, Paul warned that if any provide not for his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel!

    Praise the Lord that God has designed the Bible to be a good commentary on itself, if we but compare Scripture with Scripture.

    Amen

    God bless!
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Amen Kay. Well said. It is those who work and get paid who support the mission and work of the church to share the gospel and make disciples of all nations. Those who are married and have children have a responsibility to provide for their children with food, shelter, and necessities. It is not the governments job to do this, nor other Christians. If one is single, they are responsible to work and be paid in order to supply their needs. There is nothing wrong with living in a house or apartment. But these cost money. If someone wishes to have stable housing, they should work and get paid for their work in order to pay the rent/mortgage and all other expenses to provide for their daily needs. Expecting others to provide for your needs when you refuse to work is like stealing the labors of another. It is taking advantage of the grace and providence of God. It is presumptuous, which is a sin. Panhandling and begging when one is able to work but does not is also stealing from others labors. If you live in a modern, industrial society, one will need to work to provide for themselves. If one lives in a country where someone can live by subsistent means, growing their own food and bartering for goods, then a salary is not part of their economy, but they still need to work and produce something of value to barter.

    Alvin, as Kay has pointed out from Scripture, the Bible does not teach us not to work, or have money to use for our care. Nor does it teach that it is sinful to be rich, but it does say that coveting is sinful. So if someone is jealous, envious, bitter, or thinking that someone who is rich must be made to share his wealth, that is all coveting behaviors. We are to be content in the situation we find ourselves in, but it is advisable to work to improve your economic circumstances so that you can better provide for your family and have some extra to help others.
  • Kay - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Wise words from the Lord, Gigi!

    I was just talking to my sister on this topic; I have been blessed to see many

    places in this world; there is one sad observation that I've made, and that is that

    there are those who say Christians should not work for money - who are VERY happy to take YOUR

    money that YOU work for!!

    You addressed this situation so well and graciously, I need not expound. I just wanted to

    thank you for sharing wisdom that I know came from above!

    Blessings, dear sister!
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank You Kay, I was raised in poverty going back 5 generations. We were taught not to expect others to provide for us, but to be thankful when someone helps us out. I have 9 siblings and we did not have much that others in our neighborhood had, but we had what we needed, thanks to being able to grow a large garden and gleaning. We were taught that it is not a sin to be rich or poor, but were encouraged to work for pay from a young age, have a good work ethic, and take advantage of opportunities to improve our situation. We were able to go to college due to financial aid. I was always thankful for this, since I realized it was other people who paid the taxes that paid my financial aid. I felt an obligation to be a serious student and doe well in college as I was spending money others had earned. I graduated magna cum laude. This opportunity to obtain a degree and career along with meeting my husband who paid his own way through college, allowed us to raise our children without being in poverty. We did not have much during those years of raising children because I stayed home to raise them, but we made sure we used our money wisely and our children had what they needed (as I did) but also some extras, like playing soccer and baseball (which costs money, my parents would have never been able to pay for that for even one child let alone 10). We camped for our vacations and saw a good part of our state of Washington over the years. We loved being outdoors and it was a lot cheaper than most other vacations. But our children were the first generation in my lineage to not grow up in poverty. That is a big blessing. We did not have an overabundance of money, but we provided a good life for them. My mom always said that she would rather be in a financial tax bracket where she had to pay taxes than in the one she has always lived in where she does not have to pay taxes. But she never bemoaned being poor.

    So, I speak from this background as well as from the Word.
  • Kay - In Reply - 2 years ago
    It seems on several levels - we have experienced similar things - first, with our children - and now, your background.

    I won't tell the 'long story', but I surely do know about not having much when we were kids, and always working hard and trying to be responsible with finances and taking care of things properly! The good side to not having much at times in life is that it makes you appreciate things more; it makes one able to enjoy simpler things, and to be content with less! Not having too much makes life uncomplicated too! Isn't it funny, the more 'stuff' we have, the more chaotic things feel! :)

    In any case, Gigi, I have enjoyed getting to know you through your transparent, heart-felt 'conversations'! I'm so glad that I came upon this 'Discussion' page - quite by accident! i was looking up some verses, and noticed the 'button' at the top of the page and clicked on it! I've been blessed ever since! :) Praise God!

    Blessings, dear sister....
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thanks Kay, I, too, stumbled upon this site as well, since I wished to begin reading and studying the KJV, which is a translation i do not have in my home, yet.

    I agree with what you've said. We are entering our retirement years and therefore, making financial adjustments from having two incomes, to (now) one, and in a year, to just our pensions and SS. So, we will be going back to the years that we needed to be frugal, as opposed to now where we have a "comfortable" income. We have known what it is like to have very little, just enough and a bit more, and being quite comfortable and able to help out our grown sons as needed. Each "phase" has its blessings and challenges. I am so glad that my husband and I have walked with Jesus all of our 42 years of marriage. Knowing that all good things we have received have come from God and we can trust Him with our daily needs has kept us going, for sure.
  • Kay - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Praise the Lord, that in His wonderful way - He helped us both to 'stumble' into this forum! Ha ha!

    It's a blessing, really, to have 'just enough', and if God wills, 'a bit more'. That circumstance keeps us leaning on the arm of our Beloved, trusting Him step by step.

    Israel stumbled in their prosperity; they grew fat, they kicked against their Maker. And..how easy it is for us to do the same! I think it was Charles Spurgeon who commented, "What more can we ask if we have 'enough' for today?" "Enough" today is, after all, abundance! Praise the Lord.

    I am blessed to hear the testimony of the Lord gracing you and your husband through 42 years of marriage, parenting, and service in the Kingdom of Christ! Praise the Lord!

    I have been saved almost 40 years, and I often think the song 'Amazing Grace" is my own testimony: 'Through MANY dangers, toils, and snares I have already come; tis GRACE that hath brought me safe thus far, and grace shall lead me HOME!" AMEN!

    Life in the Lord is a mixture of cloudy and rainy days, and days filled with sunshine and bliss - and through them all -- He has been, is, and ever will be faithful!

    Have a wonder-filled day in Jesus, sweet sister....

    Blessings!
  • GiGi again - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Amen, Kay. Thanks. God bless you tonight.
  • Alvin - In Reply - 2 years ago
    JESUS said that we must not work for money and wealth and that God would provide our needs Matthew 6:19-33 and john 6:27

    He told us to sell all

    Luke 11:41 to the pharisees

    Luke 12:33 to the disciples

    Luke 14:33 to the multitudes

    Luke 18:22, Matthew 19:16-30 to the rich guy

    And his disciples approve

    Acts 2:44-45

    Acts 4:33-34

    Luke 18:28-30

    Matthew 4:18-24

    But who will go to heaven

    Jesus and Jacob give us a hint

    Luke 18:24-25

    Mark 10:17-31

    Matthew 5:3

    Luke 6:20

    James 2:5

    But where does that put the rich?

    Luke 6:24-25

    James 5:1-3

    What is the root of all evil?

    1 timothy 6:10

    Genesis 3

    Are we to live under the curse or are we set free by God through Jesus? Because he broke every curse including this one:

    Genesis 3:17-19

    Should we end in the midst of the Sodomites?

    Ezekiel 16:49-50

    Luke 17:28

    But there are days ahead that we would need to learn to trust in Yahweh for Manna his heavenly bread because the mark of the beast is the last form of money as a chip

    Revelation 13

    But if we learn to do these things that Jesus taught we might survive and prevail.
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Alvin,

    I agree with some of your points, but not your main conclusions. Here is an example: "Christians cannot work for money( Matthew 6:24)". Here two different things are conflated. The verse says you can't serve two masters. At the end it says you can't both serve God and mammon or weatlth. This verse is true of course and I fully believe it. For context you can read verse 21- where your heart is. It's talking about not money itself being evil, but your heart serving and slaving money... like making it a false god or idol.

    Along the same theme I noticed you suggested that the root of evil is money, but that's also not what it says. The Bible says the "love" of money is the root of all kinds of evil. So we should not love it.

    So, its not the product that is bad, but the condition of the heart that makes it bad. This is the same for many other sins, for example: idolatry, greed, lust, coveting, lying, hating ones neighbor or father or mother. These sins occur from conditions of the heart, not objects. This is supported by the life of Jesus as he had a job and worked as a carpenter. He make something of value to society and likely traded that for things He needed for living such as food, shelter, clothing. Likely there was a unit of currency used as a convenience for trade and currency is not inherently bad as it facilitates more accurate trade- otherwise its hard to trade 1/10 a house for 1/2 a horse, for example. There is no indication that Jesus grew food himself, or made His own clothes, or was 100% self sufficient, so it is a fairly safe assumption that Jesus traded and bought and sold to meet needs.

    Matthew 22:19 - 22:22 - Jesus asked to see the money and said Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. He was for being a good steward of resources: Luke 14: 28-30, and the parable of the talents seems pro-investing. God bless.
  • Alvin - In Reply - 2 years ago
    As for the part about rendering to Caesar he put them in to a trap.He said give to caesar whats his and God what is his.What is God's ?Everything.Jesus did such way of puting his enemies to a trap even other times when he was asked by tge pharisees about his authority he asked them about John authority.So the sincere would understand it as being about giving all to God while the wicked will understand it as being for wretched caesar.And as for Luke 14 Counting the cost is not about investing money its counting the cost of discipleship which Jesus shows just some 3 verses after your citation Luke 14:33 we should give all.And the parable of the talent aint talking for investing either

    Read it yourself.

    And we know the parable of the rich fool which made treasures for himself luke 12:13-21

    And what did Abraham say to the rich man in the story of the rich man and lazarus which i dont think its even a parable luke 16:25 so he will not go to heaven because he had his riches in earth not in heaven .
  • Alvin - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Verse 21 you said, i know it comes from the heart just like your protection of the offspring of usury money and i know money is iron but if we serve like the greek word servus which means to labour for we have blasphemed God and make him angry in his jealousy it is not talking about worshiping or slaving like overworking for it but for working for it because the pharisees mocked Jesus afterwards because they were covetous .Now i dont think that the pharisees worshipped money.Do you?

    Now as for the God Jesus working for money as you say to me it looks blasphemic as God provided for him because he preched that in Matthew 6:19-33.Jesus was no hypocrite to say and dont do it himself.We get this idea that for some time Jesus forsook his heavenly throne and then lived as a poor person to be raised again in glory to his Father who is in heaven and Jesus.In the bible it says the son of the carpenter not Jesus the carpenter.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Alvin, how do you pay for your housing, groceries, medical, etc.? Do you work for money? If not, who pays for your needs?
  • Alvin - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I dont work for money.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    OK Alvin, but how do you pay for the things you need or acquire them?
  • Alvin Kamberi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    What does tbis mean?

    1 Corinthians 7:21?

    Pul does say that when you dont provide you are worse than and disbeliever but he doesnt say if you dont work to provide does he?

    Yahweh Jireh?

    When you answer anybody speaking about renouncing wealth think "what if he has done it?"

    Not "he is challenging us lets ruin his life".

    JESUS DOES SAY TO NOT WORK FOR MONEY MATTHEW 6:19-33

    He always says sell everything to rich guys? Zaccheus sold half and other gave to cheated dudes.

    Peter said"we left all to follow Jesus" luke 18:28-30?

    Luke 11:41; luke 12:33; luke 14:33, 18:22 and other

    Its prophecied! Buy with No Money! Eat freely without payment! Isaiah 55:1-5.



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