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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 187750
In 2 Peter 1:14. Peter says "Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."
The tabernacle is the body which the spirit resides in. Peter still exists, The only thing seems to be going anywhere is Peters body.
Now I would like to share a few verses.
John 14:20.
John 14:23.
John 11:25-26.
John 17:22-23. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I IN THEM, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. "I IN THEM"
Colossians 3:3-4. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. ( You are already in Christ. ) When you die Christ will be fully manifested to you and in you. No longer hidden.
Galatians 2:20. Paul says he is crucified with Christ, nevertheless he lives. ( Christ dies no more, neither does Paul. ) This is why Paul says absent of the body, present with the Lord. There is no where for the spirit to go! It's not the spirit of the world that lives in a Christian, It's Christ spirit that lives in you.
1 Corinthians 15:44-49.
This sinful body we inherited from the 1st Adam returns to the Earth.
The 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, one that we was baptized into, and the same everlasting spirit that resides in you.
The spirit will be made perfect and the body returns to Earth.
I won't take into account the Scripture of the OT as long at that period of time not much was revealed to people.
Lets go to NT. We can separate the period people lived in this world into two sections. Before and after Jesus' ressurection.
BEFORE: In the parable/real story that Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31 both the rich man and Lazarus are in hell. The greek text uses the word Ades instead. Ades was the place that souls went after death according to the ancient Greek mythology, and Luke uses that name to make gentiles feel better what he talks about . Surely Jesus used some other Jewish word. Nevermind it seems there were two sections adjacent, the good and the bad one. People could see others from the other section but couldn't go. A prejudgement has taken place since the final judgement will take place in the final chapter of Revelation and people were placed according to their lifes. Suffer or rejoice.
AFTER: Jesus said to that thief Luke 23:43 that today he will be with Him in Paradise. But where that paradice is located? Where is that "be with the Lord" that often Paul says in his epistles. We wii see. No other information is provided. to us untill Revelation 6:9-11. There we can see the souls being under the altar under the Throne of God. So after ressurection Jesus took all the saved souls from Ades and transferred them to Heaven under the altar under God's throne. This is where Paradise is located. And they will remain there till the final judgement when the bad people will be placed in the lake of fire and the saints will live with God on the new earth that God will create.
Now see that the souls at the altar are aware of their surroundings, are aware of what happens on earth, also they have a feeling of time ince they ask" How long oh Lord don't You..". They are not asllep, neither the rich man and Lazarus where. Sleep is just a nice way to say die. That is obvious in the story of Lazarus' ressurection.
I didn't intend to make a detailed sequence of events about our ressurection or grabing by Jesus Christ or which team of people ressurects first or second and when, as there are different opinions between Christians about those events. I just tried to give an answer to where souls go after the death of the physical body.
No problem Giannis, It is good to consider these things together.
I just don't think this is a real cut and dry topic. I was reading up on this more last night after reading the replies here. Your mention of the souls under the altar in Revelation came to mind, which, if they do not have a resurrection body then, that gives credence to some of those who say our souls are separated from our bodies and are in heaven until the resurrection of the dead upon Christ's return. But then again we don't really know how much of Revelation events are actual or symbolic. Whether there will be "time" in heaven after all is said and done or not is uncertain. But, we shall see when we get there.
Sister GiGi: Revelation is very much ACTUAL; but the ACTUAL is hidden in symbols, metaphors, etc.
The seven seals were opened at the death and resurrection of Christ and pentecost, forty five days later.
Revelation 6
First seal white horse (Christ) to conquer (as Holy Ghost).
Second seal red horse (Satan to deceive the whole world)
Third seal, black horse, balances (judgement give to rightly divide the word of God)
Forth seal Death and the grave
Fifth seal Old testament saints awaiting Christ resurrection.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all (Old Saints) having obtained a good report through FAITH (given to them by the Holy Ghost), received not the promise (of Eternal life, but having to wait under the alter (the grave) for Christ resurrection).
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (we shall never see death), that they (Old Saints) without us (New Saints) should be made perfect (through Christ resurrection).
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has his part in the FIRST RESURRECTION .....
Sixth seal Christ crucifixation and resurrection.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon turned to blood.
Joel 2:31 And the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible DAY of the Lord come.
Matthew 27:51-53 earthquake, Old saints resurrected, moon (symbolic of Christ, Psalms 89:37).
Seventh seal silence in heaven one half hour (symbolic) of the forty five days between the resurrection and pentecost.
Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be twelve hundred ninety days (forty two months, Christ ministry IN THE FLESH).
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (pentecost, Christ second coming and ministry on earth).
That's right GiGi, the souls are separated from the dead body until ressurection occurs.
Now to my opinion the saints living and dead (it's not clear if the saints from the OT are included) will ressurect when Jesus comes and grabs the church just before antichrist makes his appearance on the world. The antichrist will rule on earth for 7 years. A second ressurection will occur for those slaughtered by antichrist because they didn't accept the mark 666 (whatever that is) just before the second and final coming of Jesus together with all saints and angels just after the fight of Armageddon. Then Jesus with His saints will rule on earth for 1000 (symbolic, actual?) years. Then the end comes and all people left will ressurect to face the Final Judgement.
This is how i know it, but if i am wrong it doesn't matter much, its salvation that is important, not the sequence of events.
This subject has been hotly contested and I just had a member of my small group take that stance this week. The fact that God is said to put "eternity" in men's hearts surely shows that there is a concept of it once we are at a certain age. ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). We also have Stephen who right before he died saw Christ standing on His throne; then he "fell asleep." Acts 7:60. We have the great "cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 11; those under the throne who have been martyred ( Rev. 6:9-11); David's commentary about his son dying ( 2 Sam. 12:23) where he says that his son can't come to him but he shall go to see him (after death); the appearance of Moses and Elijah (although Elijah was translated) at the transfiguration; and verses about Sheol. Jesus has the parable about Lazarus and the rich man ( Luke 16:19-31) about the fate of O.T. people in both sections of Sheol; and the captivity being made captive ( Eph. 4:8 also prophesied in Psalm 68:18; Jesus promising the thief on the cross that today he would be in paradise ( Luke 23:43); and that would be followed by many saints coming out of their graves after the Resurrection ( Matthew 27:52-53). We also have Hebrews 9:27 which says man is destined to die once; then face the judgment.
There are many other confirming verses. We must keep in mind that when the word "qeber" is used defining the grave; and a person ceasing to exist it is the body. Sheol; however is the land of the dead. We must also keep in mind that the spirits of just men made perfect ( Heb. 12:23) would start with Christ the first of the firstfruits; so to speak. God is not the God of the dead but the living ( Luke 20:38). John 8:56 says that Abraham longed to see the day HE SAW IT AND REJOICED. We have Paul's vision of things unspeakable whether in the flesh or not he didn't know ( 2 Cor. 12:2). Finally; John's vision in Revelation literally saw the future.
The biggest issue is WHY people think soul sleep exists. It concerns me.
The Scriptures are pretty vague on this topic. This side of heaven we just do not know for sure.
This is my take on this. In this mortal life on earth we are bound by time. So, today is 4/8/2022. But when we die, we are not bound by time any longer.
With God, all of earth history and time has already happened in His omniscience and timelessness. Therefore, I think that when someone dies they immediately are at the point of the resurrection of the dead. the judgment, and eternal reign of Christ.
Although to us it may seem that a person has been dead for 5, 10, or 100 years, but on the other side on death, time does hold to anyone. One goes from mortal life, to death, to the resurrection, to the forever NOW.
I may be totally wrong on this. But it makes sense to me. We shall all see one day, won't we. And then the question will be answered.
Just to confirm Marke and you say here "GiGi", the robber on the cross got to paradise right away. : D We may be very surprised (if there is a surprise) in Paradise.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Surprise me Lord? You who have all Power in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18-20
I agree with GiGi. I believe when Elijah was caught up in the whirlwind he was set back down in short order on the street in Jerusalem in the middle of the 7-year tribulation that is still in our future.
I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint to the absent with body present with Lord phrase.
First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord. Paul was stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.
Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.
Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures. God bless.
According to Solomon, "The dead know nothing" yet Paul writes in this letter that we in Christ are present with Him when removed from the flesh. In order to reconcile these seemingly contradictory accounts, we need to step away from our chains of time. Consider God's limitless capabilities. Not being constrained to time or space and traveling at the speed of thought in any direction, we can call upon Him and immediately, He hears. Before we ask. Consider when you fall on sleep each night. If you can sleep all night, the following is true: You close your eyes for just a blink. Then you wake. You have no notion that 8 hours have passed. If you wake early before an alarm, you must see the clock to know how much time has passed. We are unaware. When Jesus arrives to the home of the young girl he was to heal, they thought He was too late. Jesus tells them "The child sleeps"- For those in eternal rest, yes it is true they know nothing. Only those who are awake are aware of the passing of time. The next thing a "sleeping" child of God knows after nodding off is the sound of that "Alarm Clock" trumpet. Whether sleeping for 5 minutes or 1000 years, it's like a blink. Bam! With the Lord. And so for them, immediately after death, they are already walking into that glorious City of God. For the dead in Christ, the trumpet has sounded already. If you are a child of God and yet alive in your flesh, to the dead you are walking in with them. It has not manifested for you yet but... "IT IS FINISHED" Welcome Home! Remember, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the World. I struggled with these 2 accounts until I turned the notion around in my head that Jesus knew me before the crucifixion. He made the statement, "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jesus conquered even the chains of time.
So I came up with another question. Where was I before this body? Present with...? And if I fast & pray, put my flesh away (absent) I can get into HIS presence. No flesh will glory in God's presence.
I would like to share my thoughts.
First I would like to establish this;
In 2 Peter 1:14. Peter says "Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."
The tabernacle is the body which the spirit resides in. Peter still exists, The only thing seems to be going anywhere is Peters body.
Now I would like to share a few verses.
John 14:20.
John 14:23.
John 11:25-26.
John 17:22-23. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I IN THEM, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. "I IN THEM"
Colossians 3:3-4. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. ( You are already in Christ. ) When you die Christ will be fully manifested to you and in you. No longer hidden.
Galatians 2:20. Paul says he is crucified with Christ, nevertheless he lives. ( Christ dies no more, neither does Paul. ) This is why Paul says absent of the body, present with the Lord. There is no where for the spirit to go! It's not the spirit of the world that lives in a Christian, It's Christ spirit that lives in you.
1 Corinthians 15:44-49.
This sinful body we inherited from the 1st Adam returns to the Earth.
The 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, one that we was baptized into, and the same everlasting spirit that resides in you.
The spirit will be made perfect and the body returns to Earth.
God bless.
God Bless You!
God bless.
Lets start from the beginning.
I won't take into account the Scripture of the OT as long at that period of time not much was revealed to people.
Lets go to NT. We can separate the period people lived in this world into two sections. Before and after Jesus' ressurection.
BEFORE: In the parable/real story that Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31 both the rich man and Lazarus are in hell. The greek text uses the word Ades instead. Ades was the place that souls went after death according to the ancient Greek mythology, and Luke uses that name to make gentiles feel better what he talks about . Surely Jesus used some other Jewish word. Nevermind it seems there were two sections adjacent, the good and the bad one. People could see others from the other section but couldn't go. A prejudgement has taken place since the final judgement will take place in the final chapter of Revelation and people were placed according to their lifes. Suffer or rejoice.
AFTER: Jesus said to that thief Luke 23:43 that today he will be with Him in Paradise. But where that paradice is located? Where is that "be with the Lord" that often Paul says in his epistles. We wii see. No other information is provided. to us untill Revelation 6:9-11. There we can see the souls being under the altar under the Throne of God. So after ressurection Jesus took all the saved souls from Ades and transferred them to Heaven under the altar under God's throne. This is where Paradise is located. And they will remain there till the final judgement when the bad people will be placed in the lake of fire and the saints will live with God on the new earth that God will create.
Now see that the souls at the altar are aware of their surroundings, are aware of what happens on earth, also they have a feeling of time ince they ask" How long oh Lord don't You..". They are not asllep, neither the rich man and Lazarus where. Sleep is just a nice way to say die. That is obvious in the story of Lazarus' ressurection.
GBU
I just don't think this is a real cut and dry topic. I was reading up on this more last night after reading the replies here. Your mention of the souls under the altar in Revelation came to mind, which, if they do not have a resurrection body then, that gives credence to some of those who say our souls are separated from our bodies and are in heaven until the resurrection of the dead upon Christ's return. But then again we don't really know how much of Revelation events are actual or symbolic. Whether there will be "time" in heaven after all is said and done or not is uncertain. But, we shall see when we get there.
The seven seals were opened at the death and resurrection of Christ and pentecost, forty five days later.
Revelation 6
First seal white horse (Christ) to conquer (as Holy Ghost).
Second seal red horse (Satan to deceive the whole world)
Third seal, black horse, balances (judgement give to rightly divide the word of God)
Forth seal Death and the grave
Fifth seal Old testament saints awaiting Christ resurrection.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all (Old Saints) having obtained a good report through FAITH (given to them by the Holy Ghost), received not the promise (of Eternal life, but having to wait under the alter (the grave) for Christ resurrection).
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (we shall never see death), that they (Old Saints) without us (New Saints) should be made perfect (through Christ resurrection).
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has his part in the FIRST RESURRECTION .....
Sixth seal Christ crucifixation and resurrection.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon turned to blood.
Joel 2:31 And the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible DAY of the Lord come.
Matthew 27:51-53 earthquake, Old saints resurrected, moon (symbolic of Christ, Psalms 89:37).
Seventh seal silence in heaven one half hour (symbolic) of the forty five days between the resurrection and pentecost.
Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be twelve hundred ninety days (forty two months, Christ ministry IN THE FLESH).
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (pentecost, Christ second coming and ministry on earth).
GBU
Now to my opinion the saints living and dead (it's not clear if the saints from the OT are included) will ressurect when Jesus comes and grabs the church just before antichrist makes his appearance on the world. The antichrist will rule on earth for 7 years. A second ressurection will occur for those slaughtered by antichrist because they didn't accept the mark 666 (whatever that is) just before the second and final coming of Jesus together with all saints and angels just after the fight of Armageddon. Then Jesus with His saints will rule on earth for 1000 (symbolic, actual?) years. Then the end comes and all people left will ressurect to face the Final Judgement.
This is how i know it, but if i am wrong it doesn't matter much, its salvation that is important, not the sequence of events.
There are many other confirming verses. We must keep in mind that when the word "qeber" is used defining the grave; and a person ceasing to exist it is the body. Sheol; however is the land of the dead. We must also keep in mind that the spirits of just men made perfect ( Heb. 12:23) would start with Christ the first of the firstfruits; so to speak. God is not the God of the dead but the living ( Luke 20:38). John 8:56 says that Abraham longed to see the day HE SAW IT AND REJOICED. We have Paul's vision of things unspeakable whether in the flesh or not he didn't know ( 2 Cor. 12:2). Finally; John's vision in Revelation literally saw the future.
The biggest issue is WHY people think soul sleep exists. It concerns me.
The Scriptures are pretty vague on this topic. This side of heaven we just do not know for sure.
This is my take on this. In this mortal life on earth we are bound by time. So, today is 4/8/2022. But when we die, we are not bound by time any longer.
With God, all of earth history and time has already happened in His omniscience and timelessness. Therefore, I think that when someone dies they immediately are at the point of the resurrection of the dead. the judgment, and eternal reign of Christ.
Although to us it may seem that a person has been dead for 5, 10, or 100 years, but on the other side on death, time does hold to anyone. One goes from mortal life, to death, to the resurrection, to the forever NOW.
I may be totally wrong on this. But it makes sense to me. We shall all see one day, won't we. And then the question will be answered.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Surprise me Lord? You who have all Power in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18-20
John 8:31-32 Love u all have a nice Easter
I think we all will be very surprised no matter what we think now on this matter.
First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord. Paul was stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.
Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.
Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures. God bless.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
So I came up with another question. Where was I before this body? Present with...? And if I fast & pray, put my flesh away (absent) I can get into HIS presence. No flesh will glory in God's presence.
You don't have a spirit, God is the only Spirit.
This is part of being born INTO TRUTH.
Ephesians 4:4 For there is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT .....
Ephesians 4:4 ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL ......
Man is only the body (or vessel) of THE SPIRIT. Of yourself you can do NOTHING.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind (renewing your mind to TRUTH) be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of GOD (a body holding ONE SPIRIT), thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD.
There is only ONE LIFE (SPIRIT, GOD).
You are only the vessel that holds that LIFE, when your body dies, only LIFE and TRUTH remain.
You are instantly in the presence of God, because you HAVE been BORN AGAIN by the TRUTH of God's word.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (SPIRIT, LIFE, TRUTH) that worketh IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery ....Christ in you .....(the body)
GBU
1John 4:1-20,
Genesis 41:8, Genesis 45:27, Exodus 6:9, Exodus 28:3, Exodus 35:12, Numbers 14:24, Deuteronomy 2:30, Deuteronomy 34:9, Joshua 5:1, Proverbs 18:14, Ezekiel 1:20, Romans 8:14-16, Haggi 1:14,
Isaiah 11:2,
Leviticus 20:27, Numbers 5:14,30,
Numbers 11:17,25,
Judges 9:23,
Hopefully these are helpful
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