Bible Discussion Thread

What Do the Scriptures Really Say About the Rapture?

To get an understanding that comes from God's Word and not from our own expectations of God's plan, we need to see what each scriptural reference is really talking about. We also need to establish what events take place for each verse and when they occur.

Let's start with the favorite verse quoted to support the rapture of the church at the start of the tribulation.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words"

( I Thessalonians 4:16-18, KJV).

Sequence of Events:

1. The Lord descends.

2. A shout, voice, trump.

3. The dead rise.

4. The living caught up.

Timing: Nothing specifies a particular time for these events. In this verse we found nothing conclusive to be used to identify the specific time when the rapture might occur except that it follows the Lord's descent from heaven and the sounding of the trumpet of God. Let's take a look at another very popular verse about the rapture of the church:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we

shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

( I Corinthians 15:51,52, KJV).

Sequence of Events:

1. The trumpet sounds.

2. The dead rise.

3. The living changed.

Timing: Begins with the "last trump". The trump identified as the "last trump" seems to be the cause of these events. This appears to indicate that other trumpets will sound before this one, but none after it. Could this be the final (seventh) trumpet

found in Revelation? If so, that would put it at or near the end of the tribulation.

Yes! You are Correct.

The 7th Trumpet Will Sound First.

Then The Dead In Christ Shall Rise (Come Out Of) Their Graves.

And They (The Risen Dead) Shall Appear Unto Many Of Us. Matt.27:53

Then: We which Are Alive And Remain (On The Earth):

Shall Be Caught Up (In Excitment) Together With Them In The Clouds.

In The Clouds? Ezek.3816 / Hebrew.12:1 / Isaiah 60:8

Who Are These that Fly As A Cloud To Their Windows?

God Likens People To Clouds.

So: We (Clouds) Shall Be Caught Up (In Excitement) Together With Those

(Clouds) Who Have Risen Out Of Their Graves And Walk Among Us.

And We Will All Meet The Lord In The Air.

In The Air? (In The Air Waves) In Cyber Space.

Back To Isaiah 60:8 Who Are These That Fly As A Cloud To Their Windows?

Their Windows?

Their Computer Screens: Windows 9 / Windows 10 / Windows 11

Who Are They That Fly (Rush / Hurry) To Their Windows?

They Are God's Children Who Are Eagerly Waiting For Their Lord's Return To Earth.

Jesus is Going To Come Back "To" The Earth. He Is "Not Going To Hover" In The Heavens "And Wait" For All Of His Children To Fly Up To Where He Is.

And So (In This Way) Shall We Ever Be With The Lord.

In This Way? (Via Internet) Every Eye Shall See Him.

Re: Rapture? Nothing But Wishful Imaginations.

It Is Written in Hebrews 9:27

It Is Appointed Unto Men (People) Once To Die;

But After This The Judgement.

No-One Can Escape Their God-Given Appointment With Death.

Matt.24:13 / Mark 13:13

Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Men For My Name's Sake:

But He That Shall Endure (Persecution) Unto The End (Unto Death),

The Same Shall Be Saved.

Rev.6:11 White Robes were Given Unto Every One Of Them; And It was Said Unto Them, That They Should Rest Yet For A Little Season,

Until Their Fellowservants Also And Their Brethren, That Should Be Killed As They Were, Should Be Fulfilled.

2 Thess.2:3 Let No Man Deceive you By Any Means:

For That Day Shall Not Come, Except There Be A Falling Away First.

Allow me to continue...

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation

11:15-18, KJV).

Sequence of Events:

1. The seventh (last) trumpet of the tribulation sounds.

2. The earthly reign of Christ begins.

3. The time of the dead (resurrection).

4. Prophets and saints judged for rewards.

5. Those who destroy the earth are destroyed.

Timing: Beginning with the seventh trumpet of the tribulation. The seventh and final trumpet of the period of the tribulation is sounded and the reign of Christ begins on earth. At this time, the resurrection and judgment of the saints occurs - after the

tribulation. This seems to confirm our previous conclusion.

Revelation 8, - Revelation 9, - Revelation 10, note there are 7 angels with seven trumpets Revelation 8:2-6, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th angels "sounded" their trumpets in Rev. 8, Revelation 8:7,8,10,12, & warns of the final 3. Revelation 8:13, "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound"

The 5th & 6th angels sound in Rev. 9, Revelation 9:1,13, It's not until Revelation 10, the 7th will sound Revelation 10:7,

1Corinthians 15:52, Jeremiah 4:13, Daniel 7:13, Zephaniah 1, Zephaniah 1:15,16, Amos 5:18-20, Matthew 24:3-51, Mark 13:4-37, Revelation 1:7, Mark 14:60-62, Matthew 26:62-64, Revelation 10:1-7, Revelation 14,

1Thessalonians 1:9,10, 1Thessalonians 2:19, John 17, 1Thessalonians 3:4, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1Thessalonians 5, 2Thessalonians 1, 2Thessalonians 2, 2Timothy 2, 2Timothy 3, 2Timothy 3:12, 2Timothy 4:1-8, Titus 2:13-15, 2Peter 2:4-9, 2Peter 3:9-18,

Hopefully these are helpful to this discussion

I would like to comment on 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Paul says, "behold, I shew you a mystery;" First of all: we shall not all sleep. The word sleep is the Christian term for death, because the body is only be buried in the ground temporarily. The physical body has the appearance of sleeping. Once a person separates from the body, it's called death.

We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. It tells us in Verse 52 how fast this will happen. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet:

Fascinating statements! The word moment (ATOMA) in Greek is the word for atom. What he's saying is that it will be so fast, (less than a millisecond). The atom cannot be split, so he says it's that short of a time. You can't even split the second that it's going to take for this to happen! It's in the twinkling of an eye, not blinking of an eye, but twinkling of an eye, the sparkle. And it's at the last trumpet.

Many believe that this will occur after the seventh trumpet blast in the book of Revelation. And that seventh trumpet blast introduces the second coming of Christ. So they say it is at that last trumpet.

But if we understand "Biblish" which is bible English or bible language, the seventh trumpet is not the last trumpet. It's the seventh trumpet! It's the last of the seven. This one here is specifically the last trumpet for the call. In fact, it is the same trumpet mentioned in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 about the rapture because he says "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

By the way, that trumpet is not going to be some trumpet player. In the Hebrew, it's the word Shofar. It is a ram's horn. They blow them even in Israel today for the gathering of the armies. It's sounded from the top of the temples for the priests to come to their daily duties at the temple.

So this shofar will sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, not in their corruptible body, but a new body incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

One more verse for further confirmation:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" ( Revelation 20:4-6, KJV).

Sequence of Events:

1. The first resurrection (this includes people who are killed during the tribulation for not worshipping the beast or

receiving his mark).

2. Those, who are resurrected, reign 1000 years with Christ.

3. The rest of the dead rise after the 1000 is finished.

4. The second death (for those who are not a part of the first resurrection).

Timing: Begins after the people are beheaded for their witness of Jesus, and for not worshipping the beast or receiving his mark, but before the thousand-year reign of Christ.

Here we can clearly see that there will be people who have been executed during the tribulation present at the first

resurrection. This can only occur if the resurrection occurs after the tribulation. These are the people who reign with Christ for a thousand years. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, then these people are raised before the first official resurrection, they may not reign with Christ, and they may even be subject to the second death! Clearly, a pre-tribulation rapture requires that these verses must either be refuted or ignored.

Brother Mike W:

The first resurrection occurred at Christ resurrection.

John 11:25 ....I am the resurrection....

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO the good pleasure of HIS WILL.

John 15:16 Ye have not CHOSEN ME, But I have CHOSEN YOU .....

All is the WORK'S OF GOD, man just receives the GIFT.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given, on the behalf of Christ, not ONLY TO BELIEVE on him, but also to suffer for his sake,

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to be different from another? and what hast thou that ye did not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why does thou glory, as if thou received it not?

You begin life with a mind of FLESH, if you have your part in the first resurrection, your mind of FLESH IS BEHEADED, and replaced with the mind of Christ.

All the WORK'S OF GOD.

GBU

Brother Mike W, when did the first resurrection occur?

Hi Mike.

Some do a lifetime of study and debates on such topics for hobby, I agree with Brother Adam. Be ready.

God bless.

Whether pre or post-tribulation view we will find out when it occurs. Either way we already know how to prepare and what to do during our short time on earth. Some get really into such debates and I think the first part of Titus 3:9 may be applicable. God bless.

Agreed. We know it will happen regardless. Why is the church so divided on this? I believe pre-trib rapture and have read through over 28 verses distinguishing it from the second coming or other replacement theology. But, I've debated this and those convinced by a doctrine otherwise simply won't listen; therefore... I no longer debate this to avoid discord.

Jesus himself explains to His disciples

what to expect in the end times. There are two sets of verses regarding Jesus explanation:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,

and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" ( Matthew 24:29-31, KJV).

Sequence of Events:

1. The Tribulation ends.

2. Sun, moon darkened - stars fall.

3. The sign of the Son of man seen - Son of man

coming.

4. Angels sent with sound of trumpet.

5. Elect gathered from four winds (earth) and one end of heaven to the other.

Timing: The coming of the Son of man and his gathering of the elect follows the darkness at the end of the tribulation.

I believe you got it right Mike .

God only has one house hold of people .

Only two class of people his sheep and the goats .

The 12 apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel ! Really . The lamb and God himself will be the light for his people .

Can't remember where I read it about the 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes , that's church leaders over the Jews . The 12 apostles are the foundation of the CHURCH and Christ being the chief corner stone .

Amen

Luke 22.30

that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19.28 ( says it again )

If some one can show from scriptures that Jesus is coming 3 times ? Then maybe the error of pretrib rapture should be considered. But it's not there .

Jesus answered the questions about the end times . In Matthew 24 , and Luke 21 . Check it out .

Compare to revelation as well .

1 st reserrection fits the rapture perfectly.

Mike,

I am not trying to sway you one way or another about pre/mid/or post tribulation rapture because it's not a salvation issue. But I would like to comment on this section in Matthew you are sharing. There are two words I'm focusing on in those verses, tribes, and elect.

Now the word "tribes" is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes!



Again, that would be Jews.



In Revelation Chapter 1 Verse 7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him.



Zechariah Chapter 12 Verse 10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.



So at this time when Christ comes, at His second coming, the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!"

They are going to recognize Him. And we see a few verses later that the Lord's going to round them all up.

It says the great Shofar will blow, and the Lord will gather His people from the four corners of the earth. So that is very important because that's a prophecy that the Jews looked for.



Verse 31 says He is going to gather them together, his elect, (that would be the Jews), from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west.

So those two words (tribes and elect) tell me that this is not the church Jesus is talking about.