Bible Discussion Thread

The three great creeds of the Christian church: The Apostles Creed, The Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.

(Athanasian creed Part 2)...continued

The Holy Spirit was not made or created or begotten but proceeds from the Father and the Son. Accordingly, there one Father, not three Fathers, one Son, not three Sons, one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And among these three Persons, none is before or after another; none is greater of less than another, but all three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal and accordingly, as has been stated above, three Persons are to be worshipped in one Godhead; and one Godhead is to be worshipped in three Persons.

Whoever wishes to be saved must think this about the Trinity. I is also necessary for eternal salvation that one faithfully believes that the Lord Jesus Christ became man; for this is the right Faith; that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus , the Son of God, is at once the God and man. he is begotten before all ages of the substance of the Father, and He is man, born in the world of the substance of His mother, perfect God and perfect man, with a reasonable soul and human flesh; equal to the Father with respect to His Godhead and inferior to the Father with respect to His manhood. Although He is God and Man; He is not two Christs, but one Christ; one, that is to say, not by changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking on the leash into God, one , indeed, not by confusion of substance, but by unity in one Person.

For just as the reasonable soul and the flesh are one man, so God and man are one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the Father, whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

At His coming, all men shall rise with their bodies and give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.

This is the true Christian Faith. Unless a man believes this firmly and faithfully cannot be saved.

Hello again Jay, I hope your day is going well.

Here is the text of the Athanasian creed. It was written in 500 A.D. to highlight the Trinity and that each person of the

Trinity was co-equal to one another in all respects. They also were refuting Modalism which denies there being three distinct Persons in the Godhead.

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, hold the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish for eternity.

That we worship one God in three persons, three Persons in one God without confusing the Persons or dividing the divine substance.

For the Father is one Person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is still another, but there is one Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; equal in glory and co-equal in majesty.

What the Father is, that is the Son, and that is the Holy Spirit. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is unlimited, the Son is unlimited, and the Holy Spirit is unlimited. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet, they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. Just as there is not three Who are uncreated and Who are unlimited, but there is one Who is uncreated and unlimited. Likewise, the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the holy Spirit is Almighty.

So, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the holy Spirit is Lord. And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord.

For just as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge each Person Himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Christian religion to say that there are three Gods or three Lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten by anybody. The Son was not made or created, but was begotten by the Father. (continued on Part 2)

Jay,

Here is the text of the Nicene Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and all things visible and invisible.

and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; God from God, Light from

Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things were

made. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven; was incarnate by the Holy Spirit; born of the virgin

Mary; and was made man. Who for us, too, was crucified under Pontius Pilate; suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day

day He rose from the dead, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He

shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; and His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; Who together with the Father and

the Son, is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke through the prophets.

And I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look to the

resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

This creed omits the part of Jesus descending into hell, and the communion of saints. I do not know why.

Hi Jay, I did some research on the Nicene Creed and it was addressing the heresies of Arianism, (that Jesus was just a human man) and Nestoriansim (which taught that there were two separate persons in Jesus, one human and one divine, rather than two natures in one Person) and explained further the Godhead. So this creed emphasizes that God is three persons in One God, that Jesus was fully human and fully God, but the natures were not mixed. and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, existing eternally with the Father.

This creed was developed at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and further expanded upon in 381 in the Council of Constantinople.

It is longer than the Apostles' Creed, but is built on the Apostles' Creed as a framework.

Hey Jay,

The word creed comes from the Latin credo, "I believe." a set of beliefs of Christianity, and without believing these creeds salvation cannot be obtained. I have been told this in different denominations of churches I have gone to. "You cannot be a Christian unless you believe these creeds". Many Christian bible discussion web sites will not let you on unless you profess these creeds.

My understanding of scripture.

You must believe that God exists. Hebrews 11:6

You must believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.,18 6:40; 1 John 4:14-15, 5:5, 5:10

You must believe God gave His only Son for us to have eternal life John 3:16

You must believe Jesus came in the flesh 1 John 4:3 2 John 1:7

You must believe that Jesus is the Christ 1 John 2:22

You must believe Jesus died for Your sins. 1 Corinthians 15:2-3

You must believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9

You must believe we are saved by Jesus' life Romans 5:10

Being baptized in the name of Jesus. Acts 2:38 Acts 8:16

You must believe we are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus 1 Corinthians 6:11

You must believe we obtain salvation only in Christ Jesus. John 14:6 2 Acts 4:12 Timothy 2:10

Are there any scriptures saying you must believe in these creeds for salvation?

Are these creeds similar to what the sect of Pharisees tried to do in Acts 15? What did Peter say? Acts 15:7-11

God is not the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33

God bless,

RLW

Dear Ronald.

Here you have stated your "creed". I certainly agree with it.

But we are told in Jude 4 to contend for the faith passed down to us. so, this implies there was in place a set of doctrines that

comprised the essence of the Christian faith taught by the apostles. So, you are right that there is not a mention of a "creed" we

are to hold to in Scriptures, but there definitely was a set of doctrines passed down we are expected to hold to. This essentially

is another way to speak of a "creed".

But I understand your point.

In the time where the Bible was not printed for common use and with very limited access to the actual written letters and

gospels of the NT writers and apostles, believers had to rely on being taught this set of essential doctrines as a measure of

truth. God knew that this would be so. He provided for the communication of the gospel and the doctrines of faith to be spread

and learned by those who would come to believe. You can read the Apostles Creed I included in my reply to Jay. Please tell me

if there is any doctrine included in this creed that is unbiblical and also how your statements of faith differ from a creed.

I am not trying to be contrary here, as that is not my point nor intention. I just want to encourage discussion on this matter so

that we all can be stimulated to growth and understanding.

Hey GiGi,

Thank you, I did read your reply to Jay, I read most of your posts and others as well. I agree, it comes from the Old Roman creed that scripture supports. Over hundreds of years, it has been added to. "descended into hell" was added for an interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19-20. The one thing I do not agree with is the word "spirits" nowhere in scripture is the dead called spirits or being in prison, and it is not clear this happened while Jesus was in the tomb.

The communion of saints was added, in short, this is spiritual unity of the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the unison of the same body under Christ it's head. My understanding, there is no knowledge after death until the resurrection when Jesus returns.

The Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed are mainly about God as a trinity God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The first lines of the Athanasian Creed say this, "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly"

It puts the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed mandatory for salvation and I have not found any scripture that confirms this. My understanding is this puts these creeds above and before the gospel of Jesus Christ plus if we look at history, how many lives have been taken under the words anathema and heresy due to these creeds. Brings to me Nicolaitanes Jesus spoke of in Revelation. I understand the word catholic.

Jude 4 is good, one of the reasons in my heart I feel if I call Jesus God, I deny the Son, 1John 2:22 2 John 1:9 also 1 Corinthians 15:28.

I do not think you are being contrary, I appreciate your reply, we are to love and encourage each other how else can we grow. If we agree or disagree if it is in love.

God bless,

RLW

Yes=Ronald Whitmore.

The beginning of the Athanasian creed is out of line with Scripture. That is unfortunate to be in this creed as there are so many great things said in it to ponder and check against Scripture.

Today we have what many call "easy believeism" where people are not given much biblical doctrine when they are witnessed to or being discipled to come to faith. Most often people truncate the Gospel by eliminating many doctrines that I feel are important to present to potential believers. I am not saying that a person needs to know about Abraham, or David, or Pentecost, etc. but they should present at least what is in the Apostles' Creed or like what you wrote as your own "creed".

Conversion is a work of God from start to finish, but God uses us in the process to present the Gospel to unbelievers He has drawn to us. We should not be so concerned about "getting a decision" as to presenting the entire counsel of God concerning who we are before God prior to conversion and who we become after conversion, along with the truth about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection and what that affords us. Also, we should present God truthfully, for we are told that we need to first believe that He is... Hebrews 11:6.

So, as witnesses, we should have a sound "creed" we wish to present to those we witness to. We should know it "by heart" to present it truthfully and consistently so that each person we witness to gets the same Gospel message. Then, should one be converted, we can help them to discover these truths in the Scriptures with some reasonable explanation so that the person can grow in their faith from the start. We should make time to read the Word together with them and answer their questions. We should guide them in the "essentials" of the faith before we turn them loose on the Bible without direction and guidance.

Thank you for your response. I am glad we understand each other and know that we both have a desire to share our thoughts and what we learn

Dear Jay,

I looked up these creeds (I was taught them growing up and know them almost by heart except the Athanasian creed) to learn some of the background information on them. I will start with the Apostles Creed. This creed was based on a "Roman creed" used in the early church from the beginning of the 2nd century (100 A.D.) which was a summary of the basic beliefs taught by the apostles as a basis for a solid saving faith. It was taught to new believers during what was called "catechism" which means: instruction in the faith and then the new believer was baptized using the creed as part of the baptism. The new believer was asked to respond "I do" to the reading of each tenet of the creed before being baptized, therefore being a profession of faith.

Since believers in the early church did not have access to copies of the New Testament, which was not compiled in total yet int he first few centuries, so this creed reminded believers of the biblical doctrines taught by the apostles as a statement of faith that helped them stay strong in their faith especially during times of intense persecution and martyrdom.

THE APOSTLES' CREED

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord;

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried;

He descended into hell (or unto the dead). On the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven;

And sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic (Christian) church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins;

the resurrection of the body; and life everlasting, Amen.

Well written GiGi. Though, I've always understood "the holy Catholic Church" as 'the universal' Church. Maybe I'm incorrect - minor difference. That's why when referring to Catholic, I use Roman Catholic to differentiate between the two meanings.

Hi again,

Chris, you may want to check out the site I noted on a reply to Jay.

Yes, Chris, you are correct. In this creed catholic means universal. Some Protestant churches refuse to use the word 'catholic" (universal) and substitute "christian" to distinguish themselves from Catholicism.

Yes that is right GiGi. The word catholic comes from the Greek word katholikos which means " the whole". That is universal. It has nothing to do with the RomanCatholic church (I have nothing against Catholics though I disagree with many of their teachings).

The Greek Orthodox Church uses the Nicene Creed which is a bit different from the one you mentioned in your post.

GBU

Hi Giannis again,

You may want to check out the site I noted on another reply to Jay concerning the Apostles' Creed..

t's OK GiGi, the Necene Creed is exactly as you quoted it in your post.

Giannis,

I know that there are slight variations in these creeds depending on denomination or era. I do love the way these doctrinal truths are set within these creeds. It puts together the core of what we believe along with Christians through the ages. (the communion of saints). When I get sidetracked into the weeds, it is good to return to these core beliefs notated in Scripture that bring me back or the conversation back to the beautiful "basics". I do think there was God's wisdom in causing these creeds to come to be. But, like I said before, they are not straight up Scripture and any creedal statement should be put up against Scripture to see if It indeed truly reflects the teachings of the Word of God. There are many, many creeds out there and anyone can write one, but the test is if they align with the Word.

Yes GiGi, I think the Nicene Creed is the most complete of all. A good summary of the christian faith. I think I like it best.

Yes, Giannis, the Nicene resonates with me well, too. But it is important to check to see if any creed rightly aligns with Scripture. So checking the Nicene against Scripture is my next task in my journal.

I love many of what the Athanasian creed says about the Godhead.

I do like what Ronald did in his post, basically laying out his own "creed". That may be a good thing to do in regards to what I would think is essential to say to someone who needs to hear the gospel (completed, not truncated).

Some of us can appreciate the value of these creeds held commonly by some denominations, considering the timeframe they were created in and how they could be very helpful to those who did not have a personal Bible.

Others here have no use for them, which is fine. But it seems to me to be important to know what you would consistently share with unbelievers from the Word to bring to them the gospel message. Creeds learned by heart attempt to do that, though I would not say that I would use all that is these creeds at first. Some biblical doctrines can be shared after conversion with ongoing mentoring.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. have a good evening (or day, if I understood correctly that you live in Greece?)

Hey GiGi,

If I may, I love the love and care you show for others on this site. I agree with you on the importance of the creeds aligning with scripture, we are told to try the spirits, 1John 4:1. Also, we should look at how and for what purpose these creeds were written and the consequences of them. Does it matter the Holy Spirit was not included in the Nicene Creed; it was years later when it became the trinity?

From the beginning of these creeds, were placed at the top of faith and the foundation of Christianity. Even today in most denominations you must believe and profess these creeds, or you are shunned, called a heretic, and told you are not a Christian. In the past you could have been burned at the stake, beheaded, or excommunicated, making you free game to be killed. Thousands upon thousands have been killed due to these creeds.

I have seen and heard it said it is a mystery but, in the Bible, mystery refers to a sacred secret, it is something that has been hidden and has not been revealed. The question is not, can we find scripture to fit the creeds, but whether we can find scripture that the trinity is explicitly taught in the Bible and is taught if we do not believe and have faith in it we can not be saved or be a Christian? Does man have authority over scripture? Is this seeking wisdom?

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I hope this will be taken out of love. Not believing in the Trinity is not denying the divinity of Jesus.

GOD bless.

RLW

Good evening Ronald.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me concerning these creeds. Anytime a church puts out a statement of faith, the are telling what they believe to be true. In today's world, anytime a pastor, preacher, or teacher who speaks their own words about what they think Scripture means is speaking about what they believe to be true. Believers do not go around simply reciting Scripture to one another; we share what we think Scripture means. Across the centuries people have spoken (or written) truth properly aligned with Scripture and also spoken (or written) error in what they think a Scripture passage means or teaches. This pervades ALL of church and ALL believers across ALL of the centuries. So, for me, I want to examine my own ideas against Scripture as well as what I hear or read from others, whether ancient or contemporary.

By what you wrote, I gather that you do not believe in the Godhead as being One God in three Persons, or Three Persons in One Godhead. Otherwise called the Trinity. I do believe in the Godhead this way. I am sure that you have read the many posts on this in recent weeks that give Scripture to support the Trinitarian Godhead. So I will not reiterate those here because I feel fairly certain that you examined this topic repeatedly, as I have. We will just have to accept this topic as one we do not have a meeting of the minds on. It is good to know your thoughts on this.

God bless and have a good night.

Yes GiGi I live in Greece. Here everybody knows the Necene Creed by heart. We get tought it in schools. When a baby is baptised his/her godfather has to verify his faith by reciting the Creed before the priest as a proof of faith.

And since we talk a lot lately some info about me. I was born and raised up as a Greek Orthodox christian, just like almost everybody else in this country. Later in my life I heard a testimony of one of my business' clients and I was impressed with his faith and knowledge of Gospel and his pure life. Some time later on I joined a church of reborn christians and I am there till now. I think it is important when we talk to other people to tell them primarily our testimony. What God has done in our lives, That God is real, not out there lost in space, but here next to us. He is a living God. He hears us, talks to us, we receive what we need. He has a plan for us, there is eternal life, but eternal hell as well.

We are all sinners, no matter how big sinners we are. We become righteous by Jesus' sacrifice and once saved we walk a specific way, not like world's.

We can not prove them that God exists, but we can give them the spark to go and search for Him, kneel down and ask Him to come to their lives. And if they are sincere about it God will definitely anwer back.That will be the proof they want.

Now of course you can give them some information about Jesus and God and the Holly Spirit. If you want to use a Creed or say it your own way I think it's up to you, how you feel better about it.

Have a good day.

Thank Giannis.

Yes, Giannas, you are correct on this.

Thanks for that GiGi. I can understand why the word 'Christian' is preferable for some.

No idea what any of those are , sorry . If it's not in the Bible then I don't know about it .

Oopos, I mean Jay.

Hi Suze, I am familiar with these creeds, which are summaries of the biblical beliefs for new Christians to learn so they can know what they are assenting to when they say they are believers.

You can read my response to Phil. concerning the Apostles' Creed. If there is anything about these statements of faith that You do not agree with or think are unbiblical, please let me know.

Hello, jay again.

I found a site that gives bible verses for each tenet of the Apostles creed. It is pastormarkdotinfo under "statement of faith.

In a journal I used this as an outline and also added other Scripture that I found, maybe this will be helpful to others.

Hi Gigi , I wouldn't dream of commenting on some thing I know that I know nothing about , I'm sure that it's very helpful to some to learn things off by heart , like rhymes and such like , in order to help them remember things . As long as they are Biblical I have no objection to learning /memory aides . Much love in Christ .

Hi Suze, you may wish to see my new reply to Jay, as I found a site that gives biblical verses for each tenet of the apostles creed.

Thanks Suze,

In the times before the printing press and personal bibles, believers did not study the whole of Scriptures like we do. They were

taught by their "overseers" (pastors, teachers, elders, bishops) the Scriptures and doctrines of the faith taught to them by the

apostles. Not all of what the apostles taught was recorded in written form. Most of it was passed on by oral presentation and

memorization. This is why "creeds"-which is Greek for "I believe" where developed. Each church planted in the early church era

had what they called the "rule of faith" which was a kind of "creed" that was what we now call "a statement of faith" (which is

similar to a creed or confession). This rule of faith was a summary of the necessary beliefs that the church congregation

communally held that explained the beliefs that were deemed essential for a professing Christian to hold to and teach others.

Today, if someone were to ask a believer what they believe as a Christian, that person would relay to the inquirer their own

"creed". In the case of the early church and the later creeds, having believers attest to a common creed (at of essential or core

beliefs concerning true faith and salvation) ensured common doctrine within the church, promoted unity of belief across

generations, gave a basis of truth to teach children, aided in evangelism, and provided within a believer a guard against false

doctrine, and for the church, a "measuring rod" to use to evaluate potential false doctrine.

The Apostles' creed was not written by any of the apostles, but is called such because it reflected the core beliefs taught by

them. The individual tenets taught in the Apostles Creed can be matched to Scriptural teaching.

I read on a site that provided this match-up. If I can find it again, I will post it.

Whenever I recite the Apostles Creed or the Nicene creed with other believers, I am glad to be in the company of those who

profess the same faith

Hope this helps you.

Ok where is it found in the Bible ?

Which apostle wrote them ?

Did Jesus teach them ?

Thanks

oops, I mean Jay.

GiGi,

I kind of liked OOPOS. It sort of sounds Greek for oops.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist!

Thanks Jesse, that is funny. Glad I made that typo!

Hi Bereanman,

I am familiar with these creeds. They are statements of faith based on the biblical teachings of the Apostles. They were taught to new believers so they will understand what their new faith entails. Please read my response to Phil on the Apostle's Creed. If there is something in the creed that you do not attest to or think is biblical, please let me know.

So in other words the Bible Gods inspired word is not good enough .

At least that's what the people that wrote these creeds thought .

The apostles creed is perhaps ok but well short of the scriptures on a whole .

In revelation it warns about adding to and taking away from scriptures , also in the Old Testament God again warn about that .

Rev 22.18,19

I will take a pass on these creeds .

Dear Bereanman,

Thanks for your reply. No one is saying that Creeds are Scripture. We all have some sort of "creed" of the accepted doctrines taught in Scripture.

That is what this creed is. But I'm fine that you don't want to go any further with this, so God Bless.

If a person has the Bible which is Gods word as we do today , KJV is the most published book ever , these creeds should be disposed of since they are not equal to the scriptures.

If the apostles did not write it and they did not , it's no better than anyone else's writings as far as authority. People may like them but they have no authority over or equal to the word of God .

There are way too many cults that shape the scriptures to make their own religion based on the Bible .

The list is long .

2 Timothy 3.14,15 16,17,a real valuable verses to hang on to .