Bible Discussion Thread

Why didn't the Angels just take Lot and leave his wife and daughters behind? The husbands of the daughters chose to stay.

The wife "looked back" (symbolic of yearning for the old way of life) and was turned into a pillar of salt.

The daughters, who had just been pulled out of Sodom by the hands by Angels, didn't have enough faith to believe God would find them husbands, and seduced their father.

"Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Jesus said, "....blessed are those who believe but have not seen."

How could people be so faithless when they've seen God or Jesus in action?????

There is an excellent tract called "Remember Lot's Wife" in the Chapel Library series. Well worth reading. 2 Peter 2:7-8 indicates that Lot was righteous; even if he wasn't at the maturity level of Abraham listed in Hebrews 11. Clearly; Lot was compromised offering his own daughters to appease those who wanted to molest the angels (who appeared as men). He and his wife; no doubt were enticed by the fertile land of the valley as opposed to where Abraham ended up in tents. He was hesitant leaving; and after the angels finally prodded him; he left town but wanted to stop short of the mountains. Finally; after God's patience was demonstrated-the event occurred and then he was afraid to remain where he originally requested and fled to the mountains.

His wife sort of represents the parable where Jesus said that he who turned his back on the plow was unworthy ( Luke 9:62). Those who are caught up with the cares of this life; and ensnared by riches will never produce fruit and therefore are unsaved according to the parable of the sower. As to her eternal fate; I am not entirely sure it can be determined.

As to the daughters; their fear was that perhaps the whole world was destroyed. They got their father drunk; which wasn't exactly the same as seducing them out of fear of no offspring. It is possible at that time also there was no rule set about having such relations; if it is a sin it is not on the level with their son in laws who likely were engaged to them only at the time and disgracefully acted like the angels were mocking them. It should also be remembered that the rampant sexual behavior probably made eligible men a rarity in that region.

In any case; this incident shows us that some escape as through the fire and others are wise enough to be taken out as Enoch and Elijah. May we be the same at the rapture. God knows what He is doing; thankfully all those who are in Him will be saved. Let us be careful not to lose our rewards- Rev. 3:11

"......His wife sort of represents the parable where Jesus said that

he who turned his back on the plow was unworthy ( Luke 9:62)....

Those who are caught up with the cares of this life; and ensnared by riches will never produce fruit and therefore are unsaved according to the parable of the sower. "

Define "unsaved". Do you mean someone who heard the Gospel and rejected it right away or heard it and blew it off or are you talking about people who knew the truth and then totally chucked it and went back to their old, sinful ways?

Many "christians" have the appearance of Godliness (like going to Church every Sunday, or going to/having Bible studies,

or bragging about how much they fast and pray, or do good deeds to be seen by men, or get a high by "speaking in tongues"

or ......)

Matthew 7:20-23

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just what is, "doing the will of my Father which is in heaven."??

I'm confused.

Your analogies all were as the parable of the sower. Those who have the seed stolen by Satan never really hear it; those who hear and immediately fall away when trials come are as you would say "blew it off" and the third those who knew it and "chucked it" as it were when the riches and snares of this life choked out the effectiveness. The problem with this analogy is that is a bit oversimplistic; in that we all start off with hearing the Word; and go through testings of the temptations of this world; the flesh and the devil. Those who are of "His seed" who endure until the end have the Spirit chastising those who are truly His own. Those who are saved truly are dead to their old selves and eventually produce some fruit; but some are clearly recieving rewards to a greater or lesser extent; and some are saved as through the fire.

Of course; there are those like Judas Iscariot who were part of His ministry; but never really with Him; because they were in it for other reasons than loving God. Any spiritual "experience" that is above the giver of gifts that is desired leaves one open to the "angel of light" Satan Himself. God can perhaps heal someone through a miracle despite the fact that some either deliberately fabricate miracles for financial gain; or are directly infested with demons that for a time seem to work wonders. You shall know them by their fruits (Matth. 7:16-22). I would state clearly that anyone who is living in a state of unrepentant sin cannot simultaneously do works of righteousness. Many are also in churches as a pride thing; family loyalty; socializing; or to make themselves feel good about themselves that they've "done their duty."

The clearest thing I can say that is in God's presence; which often means being around those TRULY filled with the Spirit of God; sin, righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8) is made clear; and we are driven to a godly sorrow leading to repentance. ( 2 Cor. 7:10). God will reveal this to you

Thank you, Richard. I'm still confused but I will meditate on the things written in this discussion thread.

I suppose the question is whether the theoretical understanding of those who are producing fruit worthy of repentance (truly saved) is the issue; or your own walk. I feel it is important to point out the greatest enemy is our self love. We deem that something in our flesh is good; this can slip very easily into humanism. Our experiences with God can be confused with emotions which give us natural enjoyment in the flesh but are transient at best. Reliance upon our feelings to dictate what experiences are from the Holy Spirit of course without spiritual discernment can lead us astray. However; if we ask God as the book of James states He gives us wisdom. If we seek the truth; we will find it. As my last post suggested in response-it is the conviction of sin; judgment and righteousness the Spirit reveals to us; often in the presence of other saints who are more mature and therefore have a greater measure of faith and/or the Spirit. I don't want to say that there is no feeling with the Lord; it is better described as existent without involving the flesh; or outside our own created world in our minds as it were. We do learn to recognize it; however if we are His sheep we recognize and hear His voice and also when strangers are teaching falsehood we sense danger and get away.

I thought it prudent to encourage you also that Christ has overcome this world. There is no fear in true love. ( 1 John 4:18). Not quoted perfectly; but my point is that the enemy continually likes to accuse us before God. The fact that our Father doesn't change ( James 1:17-18) as the "Father of lights" is different than the enemy; who likes to dangle a carrot in front of us; then torment us when we fall for it. I will keep you in prayer as to your living situation-and that the promises of Psalm 91 can be applied to your life. In general; it is always best to keep God above people; yet we have to trust God to bring who He chooses in our time of need. Stay in fellowship.

Hi Dgjot. Nice to see you back here again. I've also thought about the question you ask. I feel that it's because God won't judge us for what we might do in the future (i.e. our future sins don't stand under His Judgement), but that present sins are accountable & stand under His Judgement. Lot's wife & daughters were willing to leave Sodom as directed by the angels; so some faith in God's Directive is seen here. But it wasn't long before Mrs. Lot "looked back" to where her heart was longing to be, & then later, Lot's daughters succumb to the need "to preserve seed of our father", having no family to take into the future. It says a 'lot' about how as believers we need to be watchful for entrance of sin into our lives, and also to be content with what we have (meaning, that we shouldn't feel pressured to 'keep up with the Jones' ') & living with the health & material blessings we do have, however, minimal they might be.

@Chris

Thank you. I go nuts thinking about things like this. When Jesus walked among us, and the Jews saw his miracles first hand, they accused Him of doing miracles by the power of the devil. (Is that what blasphemy-against-the-Holy-Spirit is??)

All of us born after Jesus ascended into heaven long to see some sort of miracle, but WE live by faith. Not by sight. Sometimes I get discouraged. I want the idol worshipping, rebellious, wicked reprobates to STOP what they are doing, but nobody down here is able to stop them. Prison and the death penalty are looked at as too inhumane, so murderers and rapists are allowed to go free.

Ecclesiastes 8:11

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.



It's to the point where I'm afraid to leave my house and afraid to stay in it. Know-what-I-mean?

Thank you Dgjot, I share similar sentiments to you. Yet, I'm comforted knowing that whatever evil there may be around me or of the plans & devices of wicked men against me, the Lord truly is in full knowledge & control over the situation. We should not be unduly weighed down in mind & spirit of 'what could happen'. Rather, our hearts must be raised above what we see or don't see on Earth and raised to see the Lord of Heaven who promises us His Care: 2 Thessalonians 3:2,3; Psalm 18:2-6; Psalm 32:5-7;

Psalm 125:1; Proverbs 18:10, are a few verses that should encourage all of us.

We can indeed be bold, going forth in the Name of the Lord. Until we go out in faith, facing the enemy & his followers head on with the Love & Grace of the Lord, we will never fully know or experience the Lord's Arm of Salvation. This is not the time to live in fear, but to wisely use the time the Lord gives us to stand bodly for Him & exude His Righteousness amongst a people who have no knowledge or desire for it. There may be evil intent from some, but "Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day", even as the Lord opened up the way (the Red Sea) for His children to pass over ( Exodus 14:13,14). The Lord has all of Heaven's resources ready to come to our aid - only faith can take hold of them & release them, that we might all stand in awe of the Lord of Glory.

And yes, we need to exercise great care when seeing God's Work before us. Many saw it in that day but accused Jesus of working by the power of Satan. There's no hope for those who continually refuse God or acknowledge His Mercy shown to them & others. We should not be hasty in condemning a work we may know very little about - maybe doing so to our hurt.

2Peter 3:9, Exodus 34:6, Numbers 14:18, Genesis 19:37, Deuteronomy 23:3,

Ecclesiastes 7:8, Psalms 86:15, Romans 2:4, 1Corinthians 4:5, Ruth 1:16,22, Ruth 4:11-22, Luke 3:23-38, note Luke 3:32

Psalms 130:3,4, Isaiah 54:8,

LORD help us all be faithful