Bible Discussion Thread

Love the Book of Romans. Here in ch. 8 we see a very clear explanation on how the Spirit filled Christian is to live. We stand by faith, and our faith in Christ is the means of our salvation. 1 Pt. 1:5 tells us we are kept by the power of God through faith, which is a living continual faith that is rooted in love and obedience to Christ. Now, some may say "What does it mean to be obedient to Christ?". It not only means to believe on Him, but, to express it in love ( John 13:34; 1 John ch. 1-2). How can we, as followers of Christ, say he is our Savior from sin and the penalty of sin, but, continue living in willful sin? We can't. Some will say that I am preaching a "work-based salvation", but, I am preaching a Biblical based salvation. One that is centered on the committing and dedicating our lives to the one, and only one, who gave His life for forgiveness of our sins! Only those who truly commit their lives to Christ will be saved. Anyone who claims Christ, but, lives in the flesh is not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.

We, as followers of Christ, need to follow the Holy Spirit and set our minds on the things above. We were once alienated from Christ based on our wicked works ( Eph. 2: 2-3). We were once children of darkness, but, now are saved by the blood of Christ. He is the one who presents us holy and un-blamable in the sight of God IF we continue in the faith ( Col. 1: 21-23; Gal. 5: 1-5). We also see that Biblical faith is one that expresses itself in love ( gal. 5: 6). We need to remember that only those who endure to the end in faith will reap eternal life ( Romans 2: 6-11; Gal. 6: 7-9; Mt. 10: 22; 1 Jn. 2: 24-25; 1 Cor. 15; 1-2).

Matthew 24:13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." It sounds like it's something we have to do to be saved in the end, that we have to endure until the end in order to be saved. It's not "if" we endure to the end. The literal translation from the Greek says, "But the one who HAS ENDURED, not the one who will, but the one who has endured unto the end, this one will be saved. Because it is an Aorist Participle in the Greek, it shows the proof of those who are saved, and it matches the rest of the teachings in the New Testament. The person who is saved WILL endure to the end.

We see this again in Mark 13:13 which says, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

What Jesus is doing for us is He is designating a characteristic of those people who are saved. They endure till the end. The reason why they endure to the end is because they belong to the Lord. It's God's Spirit that protects us. It is God's Spirit that takes us all the way to the end. It is not a challenge for us. It is a characteristic of a person that is saved! In 1 Peter 1:5, Peter says, "We are those who are being kept by the power of God until our salvation comes."

We are kept by the power of God, period!

Jesse, you said we are "kept by the power of God, period!". I don't see anyone disputing that in this chat. The only thing is that it is by our faith and that is a continued present tense in the bible.

God is unchanging. His "dispensation" on how he communed with and saves people has changed, such as from the time of Adam and Eve to Noah, and from the Jews to Christians today. However, he is always consistent from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 that obedience is a must for salvation and not negotiable. And one thing that is clear from reading the Bible many times over the years is that God knows all, but, always gives us the choice and free will to do what is right.

As Christians, we stay in the love of Christ because we desire to be close to him and are led by the holy spirit. But we are not forced to stay in the love of Christ. Just as we got into the hands of God when we believed, we can also deny Christ and get right back out.

And I have not seen any bible verses directly from you to actually support "once saved always saved". I have seen a few others in this chat provide many scriptures and backed those verses with more verses, providing detailed explanations. You have just shared parts of verses out of context and told everyone you are right without backing it up with more verses.

Honestly Erich a great job presenting scripture and backing it up with a lot more scripture, going real in depth for conditional security. You just seem to be stuck on the same couple verses that are only part of a bigger picture that you are not mentioning because it will expose the fact the salvation really is conditional.

Steve,

Do you have a desire to be close to Christ? What gives you that desire? You are making a false accusation against me. I did not tell everyone I am right. I am simply sharing my belief, as you are yours. As far as my salvation goes, I am very secure in Christ Jesus. I believe in the eternal security of every believer, including you if you belong to Christ. If you believe that one day you can deny Christ and remove yourself from His hand, then you must also agree with me if I were to tell you that tomorrow you might deny Him. I mean, it is possible, right?

I can share many scriptures that persuade me to believe in the eternal security of the believer, but I've been in these conversations before, and no amount of scripture that I share with someone who is insecure in their salvation would change their mind. When it comes to my salvation, I place my trust completely in Christ. I cannot trust in myself to keep myself saved. As long as His Spirit is in me, I will always be saved, and He has promised to never leave.

You say that we can remove ourselves from the hand of God, except that the Bible says that God spread the universe with the span of His hand. That is a pretty big hand! In Ephesians Chapter 6, it says to be empowered in the Lord and in the grip of His strength."

Are you able to remove yourself from such a powerful grip?

Jesse, the bible teaches we do. It is called free will. If OSAS was true then the rendering of scripture would be completely different. Yet, there are way too many if/then conditional statements directly related to salvation to think that we somehow become robots. Yes, God is powerful and sovereign enough, but, that is not how he has set up his plan of salvation. We must abide in Christ to receive the promise of eternal life. That is God's plan. You seem to be making a straw man argument.

We are kept by the power of God through a continual enduring faith. If we are automatically secure and could not remove ourselves from God's hand, as John 28-29 highlights, then where is the bible verse saying so? Because I see in verse 27 that it is only those who are following Christ are secure in the Fathers hand.

And just as I responded to the holy spirit working in me to receive Christ as salvation, I need to remain in Christ. 1 John 5:13 tells us we can have assurance of salvation. However, if the one who does not remain in Christ was "never saved" to begin with, then no one can ever have peace and assurance because no one can read into the future.

The bible seems pretty transparent that we are saved by faith, are continuing to be saved and safe in the hand of God by faith, and will have final salvation if we endure to the end.

I read your commentary on Matt. 24:13 and the word "shall" denotes a future occurrence of salvation, not past. You are right that it is in the Aorist principle. Aorist can also be future tense and if it was past tense wouldn't Matt 24:13 have read "all who have believed will ensure to the end"? But it doesn't.

Thank you for your reply, but, I don't see the sense in going back and forth on this. I have read the other posts from everyone and Erich/Doug really did a great job using scripture to support conditional salvation with clarity.

Reply to Adam. Hebrews 10:

Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The message here is a warning for all hearers, both saved and lost, not to turn away from God and go back into the world of sin, forsaking the things of Christ for the pleasures of the world. I do not agree with those who interpret this passage to mean Christians can turn their back on the Lord and return to the world of sin after they have been born again by the indwelling Holy Spirit who will never leave nor forsake them.

Turning away from God after having been enlightened by the Holy Ghost is an unpardonable sin. According to Hebrews 6 those who commit such a heinous sin can never be brought again to repentance and salvation. According to Hebrews 10 such a sin has no remedy because there is not another sacrifice for sins apart from the one the apostate rejected. According to Romans 1 those who have been enlightened and subsequently turned away from and rejected the light will be condemned to hell without excuse.

According to John 3:19 rejecting the light is the basis for condemning all lost sinners to hell.

Reply to Adam.

You quote 1 John 2. Here are my (notes) on these verses.

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (i.e., Christians - don't sin but if you do then go to the Father for forgiveness. There is no indication that if we do sin we no longer have an advocate with the father.)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (If we keep His commandments we know we are saved. If not, we have no reason to assume we are saved. There is no indication that Christians lose their salvation if they sin.)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Reply to Adam.

I do not believe the "fruit" mentioned in Matthew 7 refers to good deeds or bad deeds. A Christian cannot bring forth evil fruit even though a Christian still sins. The fruit refers to what comes out of the mouth and life from what is lying within the heart.

In Mark 14 Peter denied the Lord 3 times but the witnesses standing around the fire could tell by his speech that he was a follower of Christ. The fruit of his lips gave him away. His fruit was still evident even during his sin.

66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.

69 And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.

70 And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.

Reply to Adam.

You quote from Hebrews 10.

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

We read in Matthew that the Lord shall judge His people and those who claim to be Christians will be rejected for never having been saved, not for having been saved at one time and then forsaking the things of God, returning to the world and sin in rejection of Christ.

The warnings are to all professing Christians to walk with God and keep themselves un spotted from the world. Those who heed the warnings give evidence they are truly saved. Those who ignore the warnings and forsake God prove they were never saved and Jesus never knew them. John speaks of these temporary fake Christians in 1 John.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They departed, like Judas, because they were not really with us, to begin with.

Erich,

You have thanked me twice, you have told me that you value my insight and follow up, and you say that you love a friendly dialog. However, a dialog is no longer a friendly dialog once a person starts attacking other believers and accusing them of twisting scripture to fit their agenda. What agenda? A believer with an agenda would be one who can easily fall into heresy. I personally have no agenda. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. I am secure in Christ. If you're not, then I am sorry to hear that.

Like you, I also love a friendly dialog. If you wish to discuss scripture with me, I am happy to remain in discussion. But if you're going to start attacking me or others who are secure in Jesus Christ, then I will disengage myself from your "friendly dialog." If you believe you can lose your salvation, and I am not talking about anyone else but you personally, if you believe (you) can lose your salvation, I have no problem with that, no problem at all!

You have an incorrect view on this. Salvation is conditional on one's continued walk with Christ, like it or not. To say that one can wilfully walk away from Christ and live Disobedience to God will go to heaven is a direct violation of Hebrews 5:9 where we are told that Christ is the author of eternal life for all those who obey him. Also, your response is in direct conflict with Romans 2:9 where Paul says only those who continue walking with Christ will have eternal life. Notice the condition there. This is also in direct line with 1st John 2: 24-25. John clearly says that only those who abide and remain in Christ will receive the promise of eternal life. There is no guarantee there, unless one remains s in Christ. Again, I ask you to show me the Bible verse that states specifically that one will remain in Christ automatically if they are saved. The early church did not teach once saved always saved and specifically highlighted that if one walks away from priced and does not return to Christ will end up in hell. Justin Martyr, for example, addresses this and specifically highlights True Believers that walk away from Christ. The promise of eternal life has conditions and doesn't make it any less of a promise. There is always an if/then connection when it comes to Salvation. Again, you can't show me a Bible verse that so shows True Believers are automatically saved. Everything is based on our continued faith. If what you're saying is true, and it's not, then who can ever really know that they are a True Believer? And, if you are saying that one can be disobedient and end up in heaven makes God a liar and an accessory to sin. Lastly, Rev. 3:5 says those who walk with Christ will not have their name blotted out of The Book of Life. How do we get our names in The Book of Life? Only by accepting Christ gift of Salvation and walking in the light! If we can't have our names blotted out of the book of life that would make Christ a liar and the author of confusion.

I typed up a response earlier but lost it by hitting the wrong key. At any rate, the Bible teaches that there are two main types of professing believers. 1. The saved, and 2. The lost. Lost professing Christians can fall away from Christ and return like a dog to his vomit, but saved Christians cannot.

Hi Marke,

Thank you for your response. It is much appreciated. Just as I was saying in my other posts, it is nice to get feedback from others. However, I must say that the Bible is very clear in it's warning to all believers about falling away. There is no such thing in the Bible that says true believers will never fall away. If that was the case the Bible would be clear about that. However, the Bible is clear, like it or not, that salvation is conditional on our continued faith and walk with Christ. It is very easy for one to say "true believers" will never fall away. However, the only believers in the Bible are "true" believers that the writers are writing to. This idea that once someone is saved they are just automatically always saved, even if they live in disobedience, conflicts with the Word of God that says in Heb. 5:9 that Christ is the author of eternal life for those who obey him. Now, you mention physical death for those who are disobedient, but, James 5:19-20 mentions the spiritual death from "brethren" who err from the truth. Brethren are believers. So, as you can see Christians are not just automatically saved. Paul even knew this and address this many times over. Lastly, don't misrepresent 1 Cor. 11:30 as all encompassing. While there are some who were disobedient and it led to sickness and death, that does not account for those who willfully walk away from Christ. Those are 2 different things. The problem with those who believe in OSAS is that they always need to slightly twist verses out of context to fit their agenda, whereas I just let the Bible speak for itself in it's proper context. Whether you like it or not, the Bible is clear that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ. No endurance to the end, no salvation.

Erich:

What is DISOBEDIENCE:

Is it not, not believing what God says.

Not believing is disobedience.

Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD that WORKETH in you TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

Most DON'T BELIEVE these WORD'S of God.

Do you believe that everything being done, IN YOU and BY YOU, is God's will and is God's work.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of my anger, and the staff in their hand is my indignation.

Isaiah 10:6 And I WILL send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath WILL I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and tread them down like the mire in the streets.

Isaiah 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed HIS WHOLE WORK upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I WILL punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

Isaiah 10:13 For he saith, by the strength of MY HAND I HAVE DONE IT .......

God didn't punish the king for stealing, raping the women, dashing the children against the streets, and killing men:

He punished him because he thought HE DID IT instead of UNDERSTANDING it was THE WORK'S of GOD through his hand.

TRUTH:

We are the vessel; Christ is the LIFE, TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

Not believing these words causes us to walk in disobedience.

The sins of the flesh are covered by the blood of Christ; NOT BELIEVING his WORDS keeps us from being ONE.

Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY (man) and ONE SPIRIT (Life and Truth).

God Bless You!

ELB- You can't define disobedience? Negotiating what disobedience is can be very dangerous because it opens the door to willful sin and the assumption one's saved by a previous profession, as opposed to a walk with Christ. It's anything that goes contrary to God. We are told by Christ that HIS commands are to believe on Him and love one another. All god's commandments hinge on love. Christ is clear and unwavering that we MUST follow His commands, end of story. To say we love and follow Him, but, have hatred in our hearts is a demonstration that we walk in darkness. Let's look at 1 Jn 1:7 "But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". Notice that? ONLY by walking in the light will Christs ATONING blood cleanse us. We are not guaranteed "past, present & future" sins forgiven. Only past sins IF we walk in the way of Christ. Again, HE is the judge, not us. Paul is also clear in Heb. 5: 9 that Christ is the author of eternal life for all those who OBEY Him. Obeying is actually following Christ, not just systematically believing in facts about Him & assuming we have "free grace" and can never be "plucked" out of the hand of God.

Let's look at the OT, and please don't try and say that this was a different "dispensation" or that this has nothing to do with eternal life. This is salvation-based and demonstrates how God is never changing from Genesis through Revelation.

Ezk. 18: 20-21 "The SOUL that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will TURN FROM ALL HIS SINS that he hath committed, and KEEP all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Also, please explain Gal. 6: 7-9 & Rom. 2: 6-8 if OSAS is true.

Hi Erich, I so agree with what you said about "following Christ is obeying Christ."

Erich: Ezekiel is PROPHECY:

How does one turn from sin and disobedience.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in my statues, and to keep my judgements, and do them.

PROPHECY FULFILLED at pentecost:

Philippians 2:13 For id is GOD (SPIRIT) that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

God Bless You!

Hi ELB, I appreciate the follow up. However, the warnings of God in the OT, whether it is prophecy or not, need to be taken seriously at all times. God is unchanging and consistent. His holy character and nature did not just change from OT to NT. While we stand on our faith in Christ and His atoning blood, we stand on our faith. To renounce Christ as a follower and assume we are still "saved" is a complete mockery of the suffering he endured for sinners. He saved us from sin, not in spite of sin. and, we have a free will to continue with him, or not. However, according to 1 John 2: 24-25 if we don't continue in the Son we will not continue in the Father, and will not inherit eternal life.

Again, I just ask why Paul wrote in Romans 2 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:" if we are unconditionally secure. Don;t get me wrong, I love the idea of unconditional eternal security, but, it just don't line up with scripture in it's proper context.

Hiya Erich...I hear ya...But ya gotta realiize we are 2 ppl...The wheat and the tares make us 2 ppl...the tares are satans Children...But the wheat is Christ child his seed etc...Its the tares that are made white at repentence,..Satan wants to deceive us..Its the tares that answer to the DOG that returns to his vomit and the sow that returns to his mud...The 2 men in 1 bed is just 1 man that has given birth to the wheat and the tares by satans seed...Its Satans seed the tares that Fallaway but the wheat cannnot fall away Simply b/c the wheat is the H.G that Child of Promise...Jesus said to let them grow together till the harvest...these 2 the wheat and the tares result in a warfare...But being our God is a consuming fire the tares are gonna be burned up...1 is gonna be taken and 1 is gona be left...The 2 men in one bed...But this proves OSAS...The wheat cannot fallaway simply b/c the wheat is the H.G Born in us via the seed of Christ..Which is God...A BABY CHRIST ...Jesus said my Father that gave them me is greater then ALL and no man is able to pluck them outta of my Fathers Hands...So OSAS IS TRUE

...The reason i say that the wheat is a baby Christ is simply b/c the Sower of the good seed is the Bridegroom...Thats y he has to know us ..thats when that good seed is sown in our hearts initiating a birth of Christ in us..The Son of man...Which is mankinds fruit unto God

....Thus the only one who is gonna be lost is our old adamic nature that is in rank with satan...As our God is a consuming fire that is gonna consume mans adamic nature..Satan...I think that is y we need to read Mal. 3 : 2...Who shall abide the day of his coming, Who shall stand when he appears...For he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP....As our God is a consuming fire which is baptism of the H.G and fire...Which is what we need....But his judgement is also his love...We chastise our children simply b/c we love them...Right...And nothin can escape the love of God..

Hi Alex, so I see where you are coming from, but, Bionically speaking you appear to be painting half the picture. I am already aware of the wheat and the tares. The purpose of this parable is not to prove OSAS. As a matter of fact, this is a final judgement parable and the fact that children of God and children of satan are going to be together, among one another, until Christ's 2nd coming. However, when I look at this parable in conjunction to all the other parables of scripture, and the teachings of the epistles, I think the Bible differs from what you are saying.

Biblical salvation is not a 1x event & we have to look at the warning passages & understand that the promise of eternal life is conditional. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: 1-2 "Moreover, brethren (fellow believers), I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Notice that salvation is conditional on our continued faith in Christ.

Col. 1: 22-23 "to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard". Again, notice the condition for salvation.

We also see the promise of eternal life is conditional on continued faith, which doesn't make it a "work" or "keeping myself saved". Christ is still doing the saving, even though we must remain steadfast in the faith.

1 Peter 1:5 is clear that we are kept by God through faith. God is doing the keeping, it is still His gift. However, it is OUR faith (continued present tense in the Greek).

The point of the wheat & tares is that there are going to be Christians and non-believe together until Christ's coming. Only those who remain steadfast, grounded & endure to the end will inherit the gift of eternal life (ref. 1 Jn. 2:24-25 & Rom. 6: 22)

Erich...Thanks for your response...But John 10 : 29 is not a scripture that can be negotiated or twisted ...Its Absolute...Jesus is saying My Father that gave them me is GREATER then all and No man is able to pluck them from my Fathers hands...Period...And about the parable of the sower that good seed is the living WORDS the very seeds of God...Thats y he is saying to whom the WORD came it made them Gods and the scripture cannot be broken Jesus's breath/words...Which means you donot understand the ENORMITY of the seed of the sower...Remember NO MAN can pluck them out of my fathers hands.

.....Thats y we cannot fallaway even if we wanted to...That good seed is the very seed of God..Spirit and Life,..We are ALL bought with a price, we are NOT our own...He paid for us with his own blood...If i be lifted up i will DRAW ALL men unto me when the time comes...( when the book is opened in Gods right hand ) Thats when the Kingdom comes..That woman in birth pains

.....That good seed is his WORD and his Word cannot return unto him void...It has to accomplish what it was sent to do a Birth a baby Christ which is the H.G that Child of Promise...Ya gotta realize that the sower of this good seed is the bridegoom..Thats y he has to KNOW us thats when the good seed is sown in our hearts...Thats hearing his voice ( his seed ) Hebrew 11 : 1 impling Faith and Real Faith is a spritual pregnancy simply b/c its the substance of things hoped for ( a baby Christ )...The H.G. The evidence of things NOT seen...Simply b/c the Child is spirit..Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me..She brough forth a man child a baby that is gona rule all nations and her Child was caught up to God and to his throne..Remember the babes and sucklings...His children that gonna result from his seed...They don't call him the bridegroom for nothin..ok leme go Gbu Erich

I do agree , No man can pluck me out of God's Hand, You can't, Congress, Armies, Terrorists, non Christians. Nobody can take me out of God, but I can Walk Away. I can take myself out. I love those Bible Verses where it says ( And Jesus, called 12 and anointed them with Power to cast out devil's and to heal all sickness, and then in a side bar it says,,, ( Oh yeah,, every body but Judas Iscariot who by the way was never saved) Let me see,,,. What chapter is that! The book of ,,, uh,,, uh,, . Yeah ,, that's right it doesn't, and why? Glad you asked. Because Judas had the Same Thing, Matthew, Peter, John, etc,, had. He had the Goods, The Power of God Operating in His Life. He's not the The First good man, turned on God, because of The Love of Money. Anybody ever heard of the Doctrine of Baalam? How about King Joash in 2nd Kings chap. 12. The Priests, Ministry would misuse the money coming in. Its not a New Concept, it's as old as man. He coveted That Money. But hey Thank the Lord, Prosperity Preachers died out then,, Right,,, okay,, keep smiling.

The Bible says Jesus gave Judas that first sop. That represented a Guest, or to Honor, respect. Christ was reaching out to Him already. Are that sop and then what, Satan entered into Him. So the Question is how did Satan enter into a Place he already is. If you're at work, home, The Church and Bodily there. How is it possible for you to enter a Place you already are? In this Case, The Spirit of God Departed, left that Temple and then Satan entered in. We know Judas hung himself, and repented and left the money. But Paul says , there are 2 repentances, sorrows. Sorrow of the world, I hate where my life, circumstances are. And Godly Sorrow, Repentance, that says God just forgive me, save me, help me. Acts said Judas died and went to His own place,Hell. He was in , but He got out. He could have found a Alter like Peter did. This Eternal Salvation Doctrine is damning souls Daily

Mikey Out.

Biscoe House of Mercy

Erich did an excellent job using scripture to interpret scripture. However, you appear to just be saying you're right, but there's still no biblical support. You're saying that John 10:28 is absolute based on your rational, but, not grounded in scriptures. You're saying everyone just needs to believe John 10:28 is a OSAS verse, even though that is not even what Christ was intending. He was admonishing the Jewish leaders who refused to come to the light. Yet, you did not address the fact the John 10:27 is also ABSOLUTE and only the one following Jesus is safe in the hand of God.

Having to remain in the Son to remain in the Father for eternal life ( 1 John 2:24-25) doesn't negate the promise that all who are being saved are in the Father's hand. You said "We are ALL bought with a price, we are NOT our own...He paid for us with his own blood". If this is the case, why is not everyone just automatically saved? After all, Christ's atoning death was for the whole world. And if one genuinely accepts Christ & then renounces him, why would that person still have eternal life & the one who never accepted Christ lost? After all, they both ended up denying Jesus ( Matt. 10:32-33).

It seems like you're taking bible verses regarding Christ's one time sacrifice for the entire world and trying to apply that to individual believers. Yes, Christ shed his blood once for all, but, that does not mean the believer doesn't have an obligation to remain faithful. Rev. 2:10 says " be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." This is a conditional promise from Christ, so I must conclude that the one who is safe in the hand of God is the one who is remaining faithful to Christ. And the one faithful to the end will receive the end of their faith, eternal life ( Romans 6:22; 1 Peter 1:9)

Christians are assured of salvation & should take great joy in the promise of God to keep them in His hand! However, to inherit eternal life one must endure to the end.

Doug,

I agree with you that a believer has an obligation to remain faithful to the Lord. In fact, that's what the Lord expects from us, faithfulness. He is faithful to us and He expects the same in return. But what is it that causes a believer to remain faithful? Is it our flesh, our human effort? Or is it the Spirit of Christ dwelling in a believer that causes them to remain faithful?

Just curious to know if you are faithful to Christ, and if so, what causes you to be faithful?

You said "Just curious to know if you are faithful to Christ, and if so, what causes you to be faithful?" and the answer is clearly the Holy Spirit. However, we need to look deeper into scripture and what the exact function of the Holy Spirit is and what our obligation is in our relationship with Christ for final salvation.

Before salvation, the Holy Spirit of God works and draws us to the Father and to accept His Son's sacrifice for salvation. However, we have a free will and can resist this. Since it is the will of the Father that all be saved, but know that many won't because they will reject Christ, we must conclude that there is a free choice on the part of the one who the Holy Spirit is working on and drawing to Christ. We even is in John 3:16 "whosoever believeth" is a reference to anyone. It is not the "elect" as John Calvin taught.

We see that once one receives the Holy Spirit they must continue believing. We see in John 3:16 that "believeth" is present continual. If salvation was a 1 time event then "believeth" would be in the "Aorist". Yet, every time we see believeth it's in the continuous tense.

Just as the Holy Spirit draws us to the God, we make the choice to receive it. This is not forced on us. From there, God works in the us to do His will and good pleasure. So, remaining faithful is NOT a "work" but a response to the grace of God working in our hearts. However, scripture is clear that we must endure in faith to receive the inheritance of eternal life. Notice John 10:29 says "they", not "he". This is a blessing for believers as a whole. The individual still has to endure in in the Christ's body.

John 15 illustrates what I'm talking about. V. 5 says if a man abide not (aorist) he is cut off. It's the exact moment of leaving the protective hand of God ( John 10:29) he is cut off. However the one that abideth (present continual) remains in Christ and in the Father ( 1 Jn 2:24-25).

Very well said Doug! Context matters even in the Greek. And I don't think the KJV writers got it wrong when with all the if/then conditional verses. Salvation is contingent on remaining faithful to the end! God has made it clear we have a choice. His spirit is there to guide us and help us grow but the bible doesnt say anything about us never being able to resist it. Matter of fact we warned not to quench it. As Rev. 2: 10 says, be faithful until death and receive the crown of life. Can't be any more clear than that! If salvation was unconditional it we would see it in the bible and dont think I need to go looking in the Greek to see what God is saying in plain English.

Reply to Doug.

Cod chose Christians in Christ before they were born but His selection was based upon His foreknowledge, not according to some plan He had that did not involve the response of the sinner to the preaching of the Gospel. We have been chosen in Christ since the beginning if we are saved. If it were possible for Christians to lose their salvation it nevertheless remains impossible for God to have chosen them in Christ from the beginning.

Marke, there are a lot of different directions I can go with this, but, I am going to keep this rather short and simple. If predestination was the intended by God, then that would make Him a "respecter of persons" ( Rom. 2:11), which he is not. Christ came to save the entire world from sin ( John 3:17). Jesus even said what whosoever believes on him would be saved ( John 3:15-16). That is anyone. We also see in the Greek that this believe is present and on-going faith. Not a 1x event that secures the believer and preserves them.

When God is speaking about foreknowledge and predestination He is not speaking of individual salvation, but, His plan of salvation. For example, in Romans 9 when talking about Jacob and Esau he is not talking about God loving Jacob the person and hating Esau the person. He is talking about the 2 nations, Israel and the Edomites. He knew from the foundation of the world that there would be a fall and mankind would need a Savior, as he is Omniscient.

So, God does not predestine some to Heaven, while overlooking others so they can go to hell. God hates all sin and wants all to repent and come to His Son for salvation. It is His will that ALL be saved ( 1 Tim. 2:4). However, we must accept receive this gift and allow with Holy Spirit to work in our hearts. remaining faithful is not one trying to "keep themselves saved". It is responding to the gift of the Holy Spirit written on their hearts.

Glory to our Father, the King of all Gods and to our Lord and saviour Christ Jesus.

To be plucked from the Fathers hand, you must first be in His hand. Many will come and many will see and put their trust in the LORD....this is the born again to see, as told to Nicodemus in John 3. Yet many are called but few are chosen.... This is the born again to be entered in.

For the many drop away, as we are shown they are corrupt soil. The Word came to them, but they did not keep His Word, so they could not deny self, they never saw the cross, nor did they follow. They worked iniquity! They walked in flesh and self.

Flesh is made from dust, and dust is land.....soil.

These were never born again to be entered in,

These never saw the kingdom of GOD,

These were born again to see only and never received the Spirit to walk in.

Is why seek Ye FIRST the kingdom of GOD and his righteousness, IS FIRST!

Always, seeking our Lord is First, in all thy ways, in every thing, at all times, day and night, at morning and noon and evening, without ceasing, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORDS name is to be praised.

In 1 Corinthians 13 , this is born again to be entered in.

We know and are known, the glass before us clears , we see clearly through the glass.

And looking unto JESUS, the author and finisher of our faith who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of GOD.

always always always, eyes on JESUS , must look at what you seek to find it .

There are two audiences the Word speaks to,

The born again to see, which is flesh.....and the born again to be entered in, which is Spirit.

When I became a man I put childish things away , The Word of GOD is quick and powerful , the Word of GOD endures forever, the word of GOD does not return to Him void.

For He is great and doeth wondrous things, He is Lord alone, teach us thy ways o LORD

I do not believe Christ saves a sinner but then makes that salvation dependent on that sinner keeping himself pure enough from sin not to warrant being rejected by Jesus in the end.

Please reference the Bible verse that says saved Christians cannot walk away from Christ and be lost. The Bible does not say that true Christians cannot be lost. The Bible was written by true Christians to true Christians and warned true Christians not to fall away. This idea that "true" Christians are immune to sin is complete nonsense and a dangerous doctrine. The KJV Bible is extremely clear in what it says. God is consistent from Genesis to Revelation and those who do not remain faithful to God will end up in hell. That is the only truth, like it or not.

Reply to Doug

I believe foolish virgins with no oil in their lamps, professing Christians with no fruit of the Holy Spirit and no works to evidence genuine faith, and foolish hearers who build their houses on the sand are all pictures of sinners who never get saved because God saw they valued other things more than God, like the eager young man in Matthew 19 who valued his money more than salvation.

It is possible for Christians to live in disobedience and be taken out of the world for disobedience, as alluded to in 1 Corinthians 11:30

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

However, the Bible is full of warnings for professing believers not to trust in their profession if their profession is not genuine. That is where so many Christians confuse fake Christianity with real Christianity. Christians who are truly born again will never lose their salvation and they are told in 2 Peter 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Christians are not to be puffed up and idle about their profession. Christians need to make their calling and election sure by growing in the Lord to gain the assurance from Him that they are right with God and not just deceived.

False Christians should also give diligence to apply themselves to seeking the Lord and studying the Bible to discover that they are not saved and need to seek salvation that is real.

Nobody "does things" to get saved. Doing things will help the sinner find or gain assurance of salvation, but will not give the sinner credit with God by which to earn or buy salvation.

Hi Marke,

I noticed you distinguish between real and fake Christians. What is your definition of a real Christian?

If non-believer attends church tomorrow and responds to an altar call professesing faith in Jesus do you consider that person a real Christian or is there a particular test that determines which they are?

God bless.

Reply to Adam.

Allow me to use the parable of the sower in Matt 13 to answer your question. The three types of hearers who did not get saved never showed signs of a new life in Christ like the good hearer did. The fake Christians did not bring forth good fruit to perfection and the fake Christians did not come unto a good understanding of God's word like the good hearer did.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Thank you for the reply, Marke. I couldn't help notice you dodged the second question.

Your response suggests that you can determine a Christian by fruit, but a new Christian has no fruit track record yet.

So, if someone hears the gospel for the first time tomorrow and decides to be a Christian, at that time is he a 'real Christian' to you?

Reply to Adam.

I do not generally judge a person's true spiritual condition, especially early in their profession. I did not have assurance I was really saved for several years after I got saved. I encourage new believers to follow on to grow in Christ and to give diligence to make their calling and election sure by continually taking heed to God's word.

Jesse, it appears that you are mistaken in your response. You are right in that we are saved based on what Christ has done on the cross for us, and all humanity. However, just as it is of our free choice to accept this gift of salvation by faith it is also our free will to remain in Christ. He will not force us to remain in Him, which is precisely why Jude says for us to keep ourselves in the love of Christ. In addition to that, the NT is filled with conditions for salvation and God is not breaking any promises to exclude anyone from Heaven who walks away from His Son. The Bible is filing with promises of hope, but, never guarantees salvation based on a one ti.e profession. That's why Peter says to give all diligence to make our calling and election sur.... Our calling, as in saved believers.

Doug,

From what I gather, you believe you can walk away from Jesus Christ. Let me ask you this: will Jesus ever walk away from you? You referenced Jude 1:21, but that verse does not have anything to do with God forcing us or not forcing us to remain in Him. I am going to assume that you are saved? If so, once God saved you, are you now in control of your salvation (keeping yourself saved), or are you being kept by God's power?



You say that "He will not force us to remain in Him," and my response to that would be that God does not have to force any believer to remain in Him. A true believer remains in Him, not because they are forced to, but because they have God's Spirit in them, and it is His Spirit that causes them to remain (MENO) permanently in Him.

Now, I belong to Christ. I have been born of His Spirit. However, I still have choice and I still have free will. What does that mean? Does that mean I can be disobedient to Christ because I have free choice? Well, I can put it to the test and exercise my free choice or free will, but if I truly belong to Christ, He's going to deal with me. And if I truly belong to Christ and one day I decide I don't want to be saved anymore and that I'm going to just denounce the whole thing and walk away, then I was never saved to begin with.

For me personally, I have to differentiate between my flesh and the Spirit of Christ that lives in me. My flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord and will always want to get away. But the Spirit of Christ who lives in me, He is the one who energizes me and causes me to never "walk away." A person who professes to belong to Christ but later on walks away is a person who never belonged to Christ to begin with.

The Bible is clear that ONLY those walking in the spirit will inherit eternal life, but, nowhere do you see this is a guarantee. Jn 10: 28 and 29 there is a condition that is found in v. 27; following Jesus. This is in the present continual tense. Even Christ said in John 8:51 that IF a man obeys His commands they will never see death. This is not a guarantee. Take the parable of the 10 virgins. 5 had the oil (holy spirit) but it burned out. that doesn't mean they never had the oil. There's no Bible verse that says one who's filled with the Spirit can't willfully forfeit their salvation by apostacy ( Heb. 3: 12-19). From Genesis to Revelation God's consistent and clear that there are conditions to eternal life. I read your post to Erich & you quoted "Jesus in Jn 8:30-31 tells us that to those Jews who have believed in Him, He says my genuine disciples continue in my word." that is not what Christ said! Christ said "IF you continue in my word then truly you are my disciple." We see Christ in Jh 15: 3 say that his disciples are "now clean through the word" meaning they're saved. It can't mean anything else. Yet, he continues to tell them they must remain in Him. If not, they'd be cast out and burned, clearly symbolizing hell. We can't let our oil (holy Spirit) burn out.

Rom. 11: 17-23 highlights that Jews were broken off & gentiles graffed into Christ (saved) because of faith. Paul then warns them about apostacy, and highlights in v. 23 that if the unbeliever abides not in unbelief they can be graffed in (saved) AGAIN.

Rom. 2: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE

1 Jn 2:24-15 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN in you, ye also shall CONTINUE in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE.