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When in Matthew 24 the apostles asked Jesus about the destruction of the temple and the end of the world (age) the first thing Jesus said was "Take heed that no man deceive you". I agree with you the rapture theory as taught is a big deception.
My understanding, 1 Thessalonians 4 along with Daniel 9:27 and parts of Mathew 24 and other scripture taken out of context has been used to create this theory of being taken out and up to heaven to be spared the great tribulation. The wrath of God and the great tribulation is wrongfully considered to be the same. The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is they can be comforted they will not keep those who have died from resurrection day.
Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Jesus will not return until after these two things happen. In this same chapter, in context of the end times God sends a strong delusion and the reason for it, in verses 8-12. My understanding, this points to Revelation 3:10 and also Revelation 13:11-16. God said He will keep us from this temptation that is coming not from being killed, the death of this flesh body. Our hope is eternal life not this corruptible flesh life.
There will be some that survive this time that is coming but we see in Revelation 13:7-10 and other scripture most will not. It is taught that this gathering of the saints Jesus takes us to heaven but scripture does not support that, I have not found one bible verse that says we ever go to heaven but the bible does say we will reign on earth and God will dwell with us and we will be His people, Revelation 21:3.
I think what you are referring to is the literal interpretation found here in God's word.
There are other verses, but this gives a clear understanding of God's plans for those dead and those alive during "the rapture".
Verse 16 refers to those that came before.
Verse 17 to the ones alive during Jesus' return.
Note that verse 18 states that this is to be a comfort to us.
As long as we are called up to be with the Lord, it doesn't matter to me if I'm first or last. I just like knowing that I'm going to be called.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Context
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The verses you related concern Christs 2nd coming. I don't believe the bible scripture relates to "a rapture" or a secret event of Christ coming prior to Christs 2nd coming. Many modern day Christians believe this rapture doctrine, even though it goes against over 18 centuries of solid traditional Church doctrine. These modern day Christian's believe Christ will come to deliver them prior to the Great Tribulation. It's wishful thinking, human nature, and leave it to Man to always be trying to figure an easy way out, but the scripture really does not support this.
As the world continues to deteriorate in sin, as Christians we need to be realistic, and stop fantasizing, and focus on God's second coming, and realize we will not receive any better treatment than all of the Christians that have suffered and died before us. At some point we will be suffering, and exposed to the Great Tribulation as related by God in the scripture. God will guide us through this too, and the scripture supports that even though we will be present during the Tribulation, He will protect, and provide his believers with safe places to hide on earth, as the end time prophesies unfold.
Then Christ's 2nd coming:
Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Hello Bro. Dan. I was sorry to learn that your comment was removed, as I was planning a lengthy response to it. Even till my present comment, I don't see it re-instated, so I will just make one brief comment on one point that you raised, that of the time of the rising of this 'Pre-Tribulation Rapture' teaching. I believe you quoted that this began to occur around the 1830s with J.N. Darby, E. Irving, et al bringing this to the fore, when prior to this, neither the apostles, nor the early Church believed in it. Please correct me if I've not accurately remembered your comment on this.
Not raising the matters of the apostles or the understanding by the early Church at this juncture, since that is the era & its beliefs that are in question, I would raise the afore-mentioned point of whether this teaching of the 'rapture' was evident in the post-apostolic era. I will just share a few names, that you no doubt will be familiar with, but will also state that I don't subscribe to everything they believe, nor the quality of their Christian experience. I only bring up their names because of that early period of their life & their belief on this subject.
Though there were both pre- and post-tribulation positions held in those days, these men named here held the pre-trib position: Polycarp (1st Century AD, & disciple to the Apostle John); Clement of Rome (1st Century AD & possibly the same as the one in Philippians 4:3); Ignatius of Antioch (2nd Century AD); Irenaeus (2nd Century AD, & disciple of Polycarp); Victorinus of Petrovium (3rd Century AD); and others, particularly various writings specific to or alluding to a pre-tribulation rapture. I share these few names simply to refute the belief that this teaching is something new from the 19th Century AD, rather, a belief that existed since the early Church. Though no doubt, other beliefs on eschatology were varied & rampant. Yet, it's only to God's Word we appeal.
Thanks for your reply. I believe the entities you listed supporting or alluding to early rapture beliefs within the early church are inconclusive and weak at best. I would chalk this up to wishful thinking by the current day believers of this doctrine looking for anything to desperately bolster this unorthodox doctrine.
In any event, if this doctrine was even discussed by a few individuals it was never accepted by The Church nor the multitudes of bible scholars over all of the previous centuries. And this is the point!
So, I will remain with my original statement that rapture doctrine originally took hold and became a viable belief in The Church beginning in the early 19th century. It is considered modern doctrine, similar to other modern doctrine floating around with no real depth of support within the long established Church.
Thank you everyone for your participation in the Bible discussions.
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In this case the comment was manually reinstated, but it appears that more reports came in and was automatically removed again so it will remain in its current state.
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Thx KJBO Admin yesterday when i see this i find Bro Dans wrightning where i answered to him. :) thank you for this marvelous website! Love u all in Christ
Amen. God will stand with us forever, including the last days of this Earth!
Hebrews 13:5
"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
God will protect His children living on this earth during the coming Tribulation.
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
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When in Matthew 24 the apostles asked Jesus about the destruction of the temple and the end of the world (age) the first thing Jesus said was "Take heed that no man deceive you". I agree with you the rapture theory as taught is a big deception.
My understanding, 1 Thessalonians 4 along with Daniel 9:27 and parts of Mathew 24 and other scripture taken out of context has been used to create this theory of being taken out and up to heaven to be spared the great tribulation. The wrath of God and the great tribulation is wrongfully considered to be the same. The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is they can be comforted they will not keep those who have died from resurrection day.
Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Jesus will not return until after these two things happen. In this same chapter, in context of the end times God sends a strong delusion and the reason for it, in verses 8-12. My understanding, this points to Revelation 3:10 and also Revelation 13:11-16. God said He will keep us from this temptation that is coming not from being killed, the death of this flesh body. Our hope is eternal life not this corruptible flesh life.
There will be some that survive this time that is coming but we see in Revelation 13:7-10 and other scripture most will not. It is taught that this gathering of the saints Jesus takes us to heaven but scripture does not support that, I have not found one bible verse that says we ever go to heaven but the bible does say we will reign on earth and God will dwell with us and we will be His people, Revelation 21:3.
God bless,
RLW
I think what you are referring to is the literal interpretation found here in God's word.
There are other verses, but this gives a clear understanding of God's plans for those dead and those alive during "the rapture".
Verse 16 refers to those that came before.
Verse 17 to the ones alive during Jesus' return.
Note that verse 18 states that this is to be a comfort to us.
As long as we are called up to be with the Lord, it doesn't matter to me if I'm first or last. I just like knowing that I'm going to be called.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Context
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The verses you related concern Christs 2nd coming. I don't believe the bible scripture relates to "a rapture" or a secret event of Christ coming prior to Christs 2nd coming. Many modern day Christians believe this rapture doctrine, even though it goes against over 18 centuries of solid traditional Church doctrine. These modern day Christian's believe Christ will come to deliver them prior to the Great Tribulation. It's wishful thinking, human nature, and leave it to Man to always be trying to figure an easy way out, but the scripture really does not support this.
As the world continues to deteriorate in sin, as Christians we need to be realistic, and stop fantasizing, and focus on God's second coming, and realize we will not receive any better treatment than all of the Christians that have suffered and died before us. At some point we will be suffering, and exposed to the Great Tribulation as related by God in the scripture. God will guide us through this too, and the scripture supports that even though we will be present during the Tribulation, He will protect, and provide his believers with safe places to hide on earth, as the end time prophesies unfold.
Then Christ's 2nd coming:
Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Good Bless.
Not raising the matters of the apostles or the understanding by the early Church at this juncture, since that is the era & its beliefs that are in question, I would raise the afore-mentioned point of whether this teaching of the 'rapture' was evident in the post-apostolic era. I will just share a few names, that you no doubt will be familiar with, but will also state that I don't subscribe to everything they believe, nor the quality of their Christian experience. I only bring up their names because of that early period of their life & their belief on this subject.
Though there were both pre- and post-tribulation positions held in those days, these men named here held the pre-trib position: Polycarp (1st Century AD, & disciple to the Apostle John); Clement of Rome (1st Century AD & possibly the same as the one in Philippians 4:3); Ignatius of Antioch (2nd Century AD); Irenaeus (2nd Century AD, & disciple of Polycarp); Victorinus of Petrovium (3rd Century AD); and others, particularly various writings specific to or alluding to a pre-tribulation rapture. I share these few names simply to refute the belief that this teaching is something new from the 19th Century AD, rather, a belief that existed since the early Church. Though no doubt, other beliefs on eschatology were varied & rampant. Yet, it's only to God's Word we appeal.
Thanks for your reply. I believe the entities you listed supporting or alluding to early rapture beliefs within the early church are inconclusive and weak at best. I would chalk this up to wishful thinking by the current day believers of this doctrine looking for anything to desperately bolster this unorthodox doctrine.
In any event, if this doctrine was even discussed by a few individuals it was never accepted by The Church nor the multitudes of bible scholars over all of the previous centuries. And this is the point!
So, I will remain with my original statement that rapture doctrine originally took hold and became a viable belief in The Church beginning in the early 19th century. It is considered modern doctrine, similar to other modern doctrine floating around with no real depth of support within the long established Church.
God Bless.
The comments appearing on the website have already been screened by moderators. So, any comment that says Removed was removed by either the community or by the commenter him or herself through their account. When a comment receives a certain threshold of community reports it is automatically removed.
In this case the comment was manually reinstated, but it appears that more reports came in and was automatically removed again so it will remain in its current state.
Comments that meet the guidelines appear on the website and those that do not will not appear on the website.
May God bless you!
KJBO Admin
Amen He will stand with us in the last days too. :) Glory too Him. God bless us thru, love u in Christ
Thanks for responding.
Amen. God will stand with us forever, including the last days of this Earth!
Hebrews 13:5
"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
God will protect His children living on this earth during the coming Tribulation.
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
God bless
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