How did David repent so fast after his sin with Bathsheba? How did he not just go back again and again to such sin? How did he get over it and never do it again? How does someone repent and never commit immoral sin again? Oh, that I knew how to truly repent and change forever...
Dear Doug, as I said before I will come back to our conversation about man's nature another time. But lets talk about a sinless life. My belief is that believers may sin no matter how hard we try, we still sin. It's not always a matter of decision but it is a matter of capability.
I will not mention any scripture but I would like to ask you that.
Have you heard of anybody that became perfect and never sinned in his life after born again for the past 2 th. years since Jesus was raised from dead?. Have your heard of anybody claiming that has met or heard of such a person?
Me personally no I haven't, and nobody I know has ever claimed to have heard of something like this.
There is a saying " A theory is proved right in practice". So since there has never been anybody that managed to be sinless in life two things may be possible
Either 1. The theory is wrong, so God's Word is not true (assuming that it is interpreted the way you say)
or 2. The interpretation is wrong.
I think only the latter is possible.
That we are "Dead for sin" means we are dead for a sinful life, we follow Jesus now, not the sinful world. And if we fail in our STRUGGLE against sin, we have Jesus' Blood.
Can God make us perfect and sinless at once? He can certainly do that. But He doesn't, and history has prooved that. Why not? God knows.
Can He make us not been tempted by sin? Yes He can. But He doesn't do that. But actually If God's Spirit is in us in Its fullness we can never sin. But that happened only to Jesus because He is the Son of God and not to other man. John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." The rest of us have a portion of the HS.
Finally if one likes to live in his failures and uses Jesus Blood as a cover for that, then he has to face God's Judgment in this life.
Final question. If we can be literally sinless why our way in described as narrow by Jesus? It would have been a wide and easy way, I think
Dear Giannis I am not going to address all your thoughts on this topic. The first one we can agree on is that we all say the scripture is true. We think we are differing in interpretation. The interpretation you are struggling with is the interpretation of people's lives. Why is man (that is supposedly sinning every day) capable of determining who is sinless and who is perfect). If you were living with Jesus would you have said he was sinless and perfect. Matthew 21:12 "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves," Would you have said He was "pissed off" , angry, lack of restraint, not patient or intolerant? I haven't see that many people that angry. Could you have rightly interpreted his actions to say he was sinless and perfect? He told his disciples "how is it that ye have No faith" and "how long shall I suffer you" (put up with you). If you were there or you here a person today say something like it. How do you measure that person. Steffen told the leaders (which we are to obey) "You do always resist the Holy Ghost". That sounds very proud and judgmental against authority. I wonder how many of us living today would have followed Jesus and if we saw him would we say he was a "perfect, sinless man". The only reason we do is because the Bible says he was. I differ from your view point about capability. Some scriptures Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
I cannot help but see this David and Bathsheba thing a type of Christ and the early Church....The early Church had a husband which was the LAW....Thats y Paul was saying you are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be MARRIED to another, Even to him that was raised from the dead,...That you should bring forth fruit unto God Romans 7 : 4..That good fruit being the Child of Promise the H.G.
.....This relationship between Christ and the early Church resulted a Child named Christianity but the Child was sick and died in its infancy...Thats y he had to give them up.. Micah 5 : 3 till that which is perfect is come which is Child in REV. 12 V 5...The Kingdom didn't come with the 1 st Child Christianity..The early Church...The Kingdom does not come till the 2 nd Child is born in us The Children of PROMISE Rev. 12 : 10...The Israel of GOD....Bathsheba had to travail a 2 nd time b/f she birth the great king Solomon that God allowed to build that great temple....My lil children of whom i travail in birth AGAIN A 2 ND TIME till Christ is formed in you...Then the Children of the kingdom will be born in us via his words/seeds of the new covenant.
.....Bathsheba was bathing when David took her but she had a husband URIAH ....The early Church was bathin in water Baptism when Jesus took her but she had a husband which was the law...At Horeb Moses married all Israel to the law of Moses....Thus all Israel was married to the law including the early Church...Thats y Paul is saying you are dead to the law by the body of CHRIST that you should be marred to another even to him that was raised from the dead which is CHIRST Jesus Romans 7 : 4 kjv...Bathsheba was dead to Uriah by the body of David even so we are dead to the law by the body of Christ...ok lemme go...Abide in me and i in you...The Kingdom does not come till the woman births the manchild which is the H.G..The Children of PROMISE That Israel of God..... Revelation 12 : 5
Hiya ..ASinner...GBU...Be of a good cheer there is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit... Romans 8 : 2...For the spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus ( his blood ) has made us free from the law of sin and death....But we are involved in a war with Satan the tare that is sown in us after Jesus sows the wheat a baby Christ...Thats y he refers to himself as the son of man... Paul was saying when i wd do good evil is present with me....OH wretched man that i am who shall deliver me from the body of this death....I see another law in my members waring against my mind etc...With my mind i serve the law of God but with my FLESH the tare i serve the law of sin.... Romans 7 :25....Remember satan tried to destroy the woman and her Child ...Satan is the God of this present world and he wants to destroy you a Child of God.
.....Jesus said that 2 men will be in one bed but one will be taken and one will be left...The 2 men are just 1 man that has been bornagain by that incorruptible seed a Baby Christ The wheat...but Satan sows a Tare the son of perdition....The Wheat and the Tares makes us two ppl...Thats y Paul was involved in a warfare in his mind ..But in the end the wheat will be taken to his kingdom his barn etc...But the tares will be gathered in bundles and burned... Matthew 13 : 40
.....In the end the manchild which is the H.G. The Spirit of truth is gonna rule all nations with his rod of iron which is the new Covenant that is stronger then iron... outa of his mouth goes a Sharp Sword and he will smite the nations....ok lemme go
Romans 8 is how the born again experience happens: by the law(governing of the Spirit of Life). There is nothing that I am aware of in Roman 8 that refers to the blood. Study the verse you quoted "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh by after the Spirit". I would think that returning to immoral sin is walking after the flesh. Ponder this simple verse. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." If we miss the transition from Romans 7 (the old life) to Romans 8 (the new life) we have missed the meaning and goal of the Bible. Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
A long time had passed by since David sinned with Bathseda. He knew God's commandments and was definitely feeling guilty all that time. So he was ready to repent, maybe he had already repented when the prophet came and talked to him.
How do we repent?
When one knows that what he's done or thought was wrong, I think it's not difficult to repent. It's true though that our heart is not always ready to repent immediately, it needs some time. Some other times not. This happens to all of us. But what seems to be difficult to do sometimes is not doing it again.This is our struggle in life as christians. That is why our life in Jesus is described in the Gospel as in Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.'
But you have to have in mind that:
Changing yourself is not something easy and fast. Noone changes from one moment to another. It often takes a whole lifetime to change our character. We may fall again and again in the same mistakes (christians do not commit big sins or should not) and repent and rise up and keep going the narrow way. God works in us with His Word, His Spirit, His actions to help us follow His way. He knows our nature, that we are made of ground, He doesn't expect more than we can do, that wouldn't be fair to us people. He is there to help us, not to judge us John 12:47 " And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.'
We must have in mind that our nature has not changed because we were born, we are still vulnerable to sinning, but we were given Jesus' Blood for forgiveness. So just keep going under God's grace and strength, don't stay behind no matter how weak you may feel.
I understand the words in the scripture: born again, conversion and transformation as referring to a change in our nature. 2 Peter 1:3,4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Prior to conversion we by nature were children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Loving ourselves more than God and lack of faith is the reason for returning to sin.
The way I understand that dear Doug is as follows:
You quoted Ephesians 2:3. " we were by nature children of wrath'' (before we believed in Jesus). What has changed and we are no longer children of wrath? Has our nature changed? Have we become sinless beings, or that we still sin but we now have the Blood of Christ available to us for forgiveness so we don't get judged by God for the sins we commit? I think the latter is true.
When we were born again has our nature changed? Although Jesus said to Nicodemus that noone knows how this happens, we know that it is something that the Spirit of God does.
But again practically have we become sinless? I don't think so. We still have a tendency to sin ie if I piss you off you will be angry and upset. It is easier for men to get ungry rather than staying calm, peaceful. The tendency to sin still exists in us, that is it is easier for men to sin rather that not to sin. Is it the same with God? James writes in his epistle James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" So God can not be tempted like people. God doesn't fight against sin, He just cannot do sins, His nature is untempered. But this not the case with people.
Why has God gave to us all those promises and what does it mean that we are partakers of divine nature? Partakers means that we are in communion with the Holly Spirit, our nature doesn't change but we are dressed with God's strength and grace to avoid sinning, but still we may sin and we see that in our everyday life, don't we? If all, but all, people fail and return to sin that means we are all failing to stay in faith? All people, I mean believers, are failures? There is nobody who achieved not to sin? No exception at all? Surely then something else happens.
My opinion is then that transformation and conversion has to do with our character not our nature.
I don't claim I am right about it but this is how I see it.
Curious what you interpretation of being dead to sin is? Romans 6:1,2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. God Bless you for considering these verses.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"
The above says that we commit sins but we are given Jesus' Blood for forgiveness. So what does it mean "dead to sin" and "body of sin destroyed". Howcome the body is dead/ destroyed for sin and still sin? Since scripture cannot conrtadict scripture, I think it means that we (our bodies) are not living a sinful life (staying in sin), that is why it says " live any longer therein". There is a huge difference between one living in sin and one living a pure life but occasionally commit sins, so is given Jesus'Blood to be forgiven and his sin been erased. Hence his life remains pure
Lets see another Scriptute that is often misinterpreted because of a problematic translation.
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"
If one takes it as it is written in English, he will conclude that believers cannot sin anymore after born again. But here John seems to say the opposite from what he said previously in 1:8-10. Why is this? Because the translation is not right. The greek for what is translated as "commit sin" actually says "committing sin", a continuous present tense ie a continuous situation. In simple words it says that believers cannot live a sinful life since the Word of God (seed) is in them.
Now let's go to our original argument. Has our nature changed when we were born again? My opinion is no. Simply through new birth and baptism in the HS we are dressed with God's grace to help us with our fight against sin.
But to be honest with you I still have some questions in my mind about this.. so we may talk about it later on
As we grow as child of God and are changed from glory to glory by the work of the Holy Spirit in us, we become more and more like Jesus in His human nature. The difference is, we will always have the sinful nature to pull us into sin in this life (Jesus did not possess this sinful nature). But knowing that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we can be assured that God will not leave us to become more and more sinful. Rather, He will work in us to make us more and more godly in our moral choices and lifestyle.
The communion we have with God due to being made alive spiritually and reconciled to Him through the salvific work of Jesus and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is satisfying to us. We desire more and more to do right because the Spirit causes us to love righteousness and we determine to avoid sinful ways because the Spirit causes us to hate what is unrighteous.
The blood of Jesus brings us forgiveness, covers over our sins, remove the guilt and condemnation we deserve for our sinful choices, and cleanses our being from all unrighteousness. Hallelujah! We believe this with all of our hearts, soul, minds, and strength because our alive spiritual nature can now affect all of these other aspects of our being. So, I think that both you AND Doug are correct. We have been given a new heart and a new spirit within us. We have become a new creation in Christ. Who we were before is not who we have become. How I wish we could shed completely the sinful nature in this life, too. But God, in His wisdom, choses to have it remain with us in this life and not carry over in us in the life to come.
Nice to hear from you after a long time. I hope you are doing alright. How are you?
I read your post and it seems to be right but as I wrote to Doug I think I need some time to study this topic before making some final conclusions in my mind. I would also like to search and see what other denominations as well as other churches (born again and not) teach about that.
Giannis, I really do appreciate you being open to this topic. The verses you have given a very popular for those who feel we can't be sin free. As you read the Bible be open to the adjectives in the scriptures and text. Ask yourself when you think you have sinned. Is it really a sin. Do I honestly want to leave it or do I like the thought that I can remain in my failures and Christ views me as perfect anyway. IF Christ gives grace to overcome some sins, why can't he give power to overcome all sins. Lets just consider some of the wording of the scripture. 1) Dead to sin or Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon Dye also yourselves to be "dead indeed" unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 2)Jesus told the woman at the well "go and sin no more".... not try to do better. 3) 1John 5:8 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God "keepeth himself", and that wicked one "toucheth him not". So we have phrases "doth not commit sin", "cannot sin", "toucheth him not", "dead indeed unto sin", James 1:15 "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death". The following verse says "Do not err, my beloved brethren". An explanation of what I understand the scriptures in 1 John to mean "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Answer: we know we all had Adam's nature of sin prior to conversion to say we didn't is to deceive ourselves. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us". Answer: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God prior to conversion. The following verse is what I believe is the complete mission of Jesus coming to the earth. 1 John 3:5 "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin". And by this mission we will "have life and have it more abundantly". Have a blessed day!
I do not believe in the doctrine of "sinless perfection" you are presenting here. It was the teaching of John Wesley who founded the Mehtodist denomination and influenced the emergence of many "holiness" churches. Wesley taught that a believer can reach sinless perfection in this mortal life by following the "methods" he taught. He believed that it is possible for one to get to a point in life where one does not sin anymore in thought, motivation, word, deed, or in omitting to do what is right and not doing it.
But what I have found along with millions of other believers through the centuries is that the longer and deeper we follow our Saviour, Jesus Christ, the more acute is our awareness of our own sinfulness and the many ways we sin each day. Can anyone say that they are following God's will 100% of the time every day for the rest of their life, even in our dreaming, like Jesus did? I doubt this to be true for anyone. What changes in us is a walk of continual repentance and confession of sins to God with the confidence that He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness. And the Holy Spirit leads us to desire to live a godly life of obedience to God, makes us aware when we are in disobedience, and assures us of our standing before the Father as one justified because of the sacrificial death of His Holy and Righteous Son, Jesus.
Dear GiGi, please read the reply I made to Giannis and ponder what I am saying. We will not reach "sinless perfection" by the methods of man. We have to be careful of people that say they can lead us to sinlessness and perfection by their methods. Even though the Bible don't address "sinless perfection" together it does address both. It seems a contradiction to me your quote the longer and deeper we follow our Saviour, Jesus Christ, the more acute is our awareness of our own sinfulness and the many ways we sin each day. We should belief the goal of the Bible and Jesus is to take away sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness and be like him. Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: I believe this righteousness is imputed not imaginary. 1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." Your statement and belief seems to me like one is living under the old law and maybe even worse. They had a remembrance of sins yearly and you have a remembrance of sins daily. Hebrews 10: 1-4 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. My encouragement is to read carefully, examine your motives and ask yourself if your truly desire to leave the things you feel guilty about each day. Read the context of Jesus parable about the unjust judge and widow. He poses the question if he will find faith when he returns. Lets believe his word.
Although I believers are considered righteous and blameless before God due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, I also believe that part of sanctification is an ongoing working of the Holy Spirit to guide us, show us our sinful habits and doings, and lead us to confess and repent of these sins. To say that one cannot sin any longer as a believer is not borne out in actual human daily living. I believe that any Christian who believes that they no longer sin is denying reality. Consider the way Jesus framed the commandments of God in Matthew 5-7, taking them down to the heart level, not just the outward actions. His words show that our hearts bring sin forward . Even if we do not act on what the heart brings up, it is still sin to, say, lust in our hearts, or think angry thoughts about another person, or be jealous of another, envious, or covet in our hearts what others have. It is still sin for believers to gossip about others, deliver a sharp word to others, lie to or about, belittle, or be dismissive of another. It is still sin to not help someone whom we could help, forget to pray for someone we said we would pray for, be distracted when we worship, neglect to read the Scripture as we have told God we would do, etc.
The differences between a believer and an unbeliever are not that we no longer sin, but that a believer has the Holy spirit living in us to sanctify us, effect grace in us, and turn our hearts to God and His ways when we stray away from him, along with many other blessings we now have because of this indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Believers have been cleansed of their sins due to Jesus' sacrifice. We are given grace that empowers us to say no to sin and yes to what is right for us to do. Unbelievers lack this power nor the will to be obedient to God.
I hope this helps to clarify my viewpoint, Doug. Have a great day today. I am off to run errands.
I think you completely misunderstood my post and my viewpoint. i am not living under the Law or the Old Covenant.
What I was saying about daily sin was of the manner as what Paul says to take every thought captive to the Word of God. So, for example, I heard a song in a store the other day while shopping. It was American Pie by don Maclean. It is a sacrilegious song misusing the names of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This song kept coming up in my mind because the tune is catchy. I had to go to the Lord and ask Him to take that song out of my mind each time. This just shows the sinful nature at work in me.
Or, for another example, if I am in the store and succumb to impulse buying, that is the sinful nature rising up in me again. It is unnecessary for me to buy things I do not need or perhaps will not even use. In such situations, the Holy Spirit makes me aware of these occasions of sin, and I repent and ask for forgiveness and help to resist such things in the future.
I think that every Christian sins daily in thought, word, deed, motivation, or in failing to do what God wants us to do in a situation. That is why John spoke about this in 1John 1, urging us to not think that we are without sin, but to confess our sins to God and be confident that He is faithful and just to cleans us from all unrighteousness.
I do believe that the only way we can stand righteous before God is by the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to us. I do believe that all of my sins are taken away by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. I do believe that His resurrection brings us new life and the hope of the resurrection of our bodies at His second coming.
Please, I ask that you address my viewpoint in replying to me, not evaluate my spiritual condition. I was addressing the doctrine of spiritual perfection as taught by John Wesley and many Pentacostal/holiness churches. I believe this doctrine to be in error.
I am doing well, but dealing with difficult family members in the planning for my Mom's memorial and in matters of her estate.
Mom's the lucky one here, now away and unaffected from all this drama!
I hope my post was helpful to you. I wrote as I understand this topic. But I may be wrong. I hope you study it more. I am sorry I did not post any Scriptures. I hope you and others can search the Scriptures and see if what I say aligns with God's Word.
I am so thankful that you can explain Greek to us! it is very helpful.
I read the posts on here everyday. But, there have not been very many posts that I felt led to respond to. Most posts have been responded to well by others. so, my two cents worth isn't needed.
I am intrigued by this conversation. it makes me think about this topic more deeply. I do think that believers still possess the sin nature that we inherited from Adam's disobedience and that our moral nature, which was created good in God's eyes, was corrupted, lacking that goodness that God created it to be at the first. Along with our moral nature becoming corrupted and not able to respond to God without His mercy and grace, I believe that our spiritual nature died with Adam as well. So, not only did our nature become corrupted and in bondage to sin, we have a loss of a spiritual nature that was to be in communion with God and able to interact with Him as Adam did in the Garden before he sinned.
When one is regenerated, our spiritual nature is made alive once again, enabling us to turn to God through the grace bestowed by the Holy Spirit along with the faith He supplies to us. Our corrupted nature remains intact, but now our spiritual nature is alive and able to access God's power to resist sin and become more and more like our Lord by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Having made our spiritual nature alive to God, the Holy Spirit can live in us and commune with our regenerated spiritual nature. The sinful nature can be overcome by our spiritual nature because the Holy Spirit works in and through our spiritual nature to choose what is right before God.
In this way, our nature does change from a dead spiritual nature and sinful nature (that was added to us dur to the fall) to an alive spiritual nature that is made stronger than the sinful nature due to the union of this nature with the Holy Spirit living in us. This spiritual nature wars with our sinful nature as long as we are in this earthly life. But, as you said. we will continue to sin in this life here until we die and become alive again for eternity, having then put off our sinful nature for good. As believers we know that our sins are forgiven by the offering of Jesus on the cross.
Hiya Dear Suze Gbu your post is so indicative of your Christian life and your new heart and your new spirit...When ya said ( Me too) thats so indicative of your being involved in this warfare also ...GBU...But you are gona win Dear Suze...Gbu
You are very kind Alex , I am a sinner . Only when we truly recognise this can we fully understand and appreciate what God and Jesus have done for us and how pure and faithful their love for us is . Much love to you in Christ our Saviour .
I will not mention any scripture but I would like to ask you that.
Have you heard of anybody that became perfect and never sinned in his life after born again for the past 2 th. years since Jesus was raised from dead?. Have your heard of anybody claiming that has met or heard of such a person?
Me personally no I haven't, and nobody I know has ever claimed to have heard of something like this.
There is a saying " A theory is proved right in practice". So since there has never been anybody that managed to be sinless in life two things may be possible
Either 1. The theory is wrong, so God's Word is not true (assuming that it is interpreted the way you say)
or 2. The interpretation is wrong.
I think only the latter is possible.
That we are "Dead for sin" means we are dead for a sinful life, we follow Jesus now, not the sinful world. And if we fail in our STRUGGLE against sin, we have Jesus' Blood.
Can God make us perfect and sinless at once? He can certainly do that. But He doesn't, and history has prooved that. Why not? God knows.
Can He make us not been tempted by sin? Yes He can. But He doesn't do that. But actually If God's Spirit is in us in Its fullness we can never sin. But that happened only to Jesus because He is the Son of God and not to other man. John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." The rest of us have a portion of the HS.
Finally if one likes to live in his failures and uses Jesus Blood as a cover for that, then he has to face God's Judgment in this life.
Final question. If we can be literally sinless why our way in described as narrow by Jesus? It would have been a wide and easy way, I think
GBU
David replied, that man should die. Nathan said, Thou art the man!
It was about David taking Bathsheba to wed and having her husband killed. At this time she was pregnant with their first child.
Nathan told David he was forgiven but the child would die.
Psalm 51 is about this incident.
There was much heartache David went through with his children.
.....This relationship between Christ and the early Church resulted a Child named Christianity but the Child was sick and died in its infancy...Thats y he had to give them up.. Micah 5 : 3 till that which is perfect is come which is Child in REV. 12 V 5...The Kingdom didn't come with the 1 st Child Christianity..The early Church...The Kingdom does not come till the 2 nd Child is born in us The Children of PROMISE Rev. 12 : 10...The Israel of GOD....Bathsheba had to travail a 2 nd time b/f she birth the great king Solomon that God allowed to build that great temple....My lil children of whom i travail in birth AGAIN A 2 ND TIME till Christ is formed in you...Then the Children of the kingdom will be born in us via his words/seeds of the new covenant.
.....Bathsheba was bathing when David took her but she had a husband URIAH ....The early Church was bathin in water Baptism when Jesus took her but she had a husband which was the law...At Horeb Moses married all Israel to the law of Moses....Thus all Israel was married to the law including the early Church...Thats y Paul is saying you are dead to the law by the body of CHRIST that you should be marred to another even to him that was raised from the dead which is CHIRST Jesus Romans 7 : 4 kjv...Bathsheba was dead to Uriah by the body of David even so we are dead to the law by the body of Christ...ok lemme go...Abide in me and i in you...The Kingdom does not come till the woman births the manchild which is the H.G..The Children of PROMISE That Israel of God..... Revelation 12 : 5
.....Jesus said that 2 men will be in one bed but one will be taken and one will be left...The 2 men are just 1 man that has been bornagain by that incorruptible seed a Baby Christ The wheat...but Satan sows a Tare the son of perdition....The Wheat and the Tares makes us two ppl...Thats y Paul was involved in a warfare in his mind ..But in the end the wheat will be taken to his kingdom his barn etc...But the tares will be gathered in bundles and burned... Matthew 13 : 40
.....In the end the manchild which is the H.G. The Spirit of truth is gonna rule all nations with his rod of iron which is the new Covenant that is stronger then iron... outa of his mouth goes a Sharp Sword and he will smite the nations....ok lemme go
A long time had passed by since David sinned with Bathseda. He knew God's commandments and was definitely feeling guilty all that time. So he was ready to repent, maybe he had already repented when the prophet came and talked to him.
How do we repent?
When one knows that what he's done or thought was wrong, I think it's not difficult to repent. It's true though that our heart is not always ready to repent immediately, it needs some time. Some other times not. This happens to all of us. But what seems to be difficult to do sometimes is not doing it again.This is our struggle in life as christians. That is why our life in Jesus is described in the Gospel as in Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.'
But you have to have in mind that:
Changing yourself is not something easy and fast. Noone changes from one moment to another. It often takes a whole lifetime to change our character. We may fall again and again in the same mistakes (christians do not commit big sins or should not) and repent and rise up and keep going the narrow way. God works in us with His Word, His Spirit, His actions to help us follow His way. He knows our nature, that we are made of ground, He doesn't expect more than we can do, that wouldn't be fair to us people. He is there to help us, not to judge us John 12:47 " And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.'
We must have in mind that our nature has not changed because we were born, we are still vulnerable to sinning, but we were given Jesus' Blood for forgiveness. So just keep going under God's grace and strength, don't stay behind no matter how weak you may feel.
GBU
You quoted Ephesians 2:3. " we were by nature children of wrath'' (before we believed in Jesus). What has changed and we are no longer children of wrath? Has our nature changed? Have we become sinless beings, or that we still sin but we now have the Blood of Christ available to us for forgiveness so we don't get judged by God for the sins we commit? I think the latter is true.
When we were born again has our nature changed? Although Jesus said to Nicodemus that noone knows how this happens, we know that it is something that the Spirit of God does.
But again practically have we become sinless? I don't think so. We still have a tendency to sin ie if I piss you off you will be angry and upset. It is easier for men to get ungry rather than staying calm, peaceful. The tendency to sin still exists in us, that is it is easier for men to sin rather that not to sin. Is it the same with God? James writes in his epistle James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" So God can not be tempted like people. God doesn't fight against sin, He just cannot do sins, His nature is untempered. But this not the case with people.
Why has God gave to us all those promises and what does it mean that we are partakers of divine nature? Partakers means that we are in communion with the Holly Spirit, our nature doesn't change but we are dressed with God's strength and grace to avoid sinning, but still we may sin and we see that in our everyday life, don't we? If all, but all, people fail and return to sin that means we are all failing to stay in faith? All people, I mean believers, are failures? There is nobody who achieved not to sin? No exception at all? Surely then something else happens.
My opinion is then that transformation and conversion has to do with our character not our nature.
I don't claim I am right about it but this is how I see it.
GBU
Let's read 1 John 1:8-10
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"
The above says that we commit sins but we are given Jesus' Blood for forgiveness. So what does it mean "dead to sin" and "body of sin destroyed". Howcome the body is dead/ destroyed for sin and still sin? Since scripture cannot conrtadict scripture, I think it means that we (our bodies) are not living a sinful life (staying in sin), that is why it says " live any longer therein". There is a huge difference between one living in sin and one living a pure life but occasionally commit sins, so is given Jesus'Blood to be forgiven and his sin been erased. Hence his life remains pure
Lets see another Scriptute that is often misinterpreted because of a problematic translation.
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"
If one takes it as it is written in English, he will conclude that believers cannot sin anymore after born again. But here John seems to say the opposite from what he said previously in 1:8-10. Why is this? Because the translation is not right. The greek for what is translated as "commit sin" actually says "committing sin", a continuous present tense ie a continuous situation. In simple words it says that believers cannot live a sinful life since the Word of God (seed) is in them.
Now let's go to our original argument. Has our nature changed when we were born again? My opinion is no. Simply through new birth and baptism in the HS we are dressed with God's grace to help us with our fight against sin.
But to be honest with you I still have some questions in my mind about this.. so we may talk about it later on
GBU
Part 2.
As we grow as child of God and are changed from glory to glory by the work of the Holy Spirit in us, we become more and more like Jesus in His human nature. The difference is, we will always have the sinful nature to pull us into sin in this life (Jesus did not possess this sinful nature). But knowing that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we can be assured that God will not leave us to become more and more sinful. Rather, He will work in us to make us more and more godly in our moral choices and lifestyle.
The communion we have with God due to being made alive spiritually and reconciled to Him through the salvific work of Jesus and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is satisfying to us. We desire more and more to do right because the Spirit causes us to love righteousness and we determine to avoid sinful ways because the Spirit causes us to hate what is unrighteous.
The blood of Jesus brings us forgiveness, covers over our sins, remove the guilt and condemnation we deserve for our sinful choices, and cleanses our being from all unrighteousness. Hallelujah! We believe this with all of our hearts, soul, minds, and strength because our alive spiritual nature can now affect all of these other aspects of our being. So, I think that both you AND Doug are correct. We have been given a new heart and a new spirit within us. We have become a new creation in Christ. Who we were before is not who we have become. How I wish we could shed completely the sinful nature in this life, too. But God, in His wisdom, choses to have it remain with us in this life and not carry over in us in the life to come.
Nice to hear from you after a long time. I hope you are doing alright. How are you?
I read your post and it seems to be right but as I wrote to Doug I think I need some time to study this topic before making some final conclusions in my mind. I would also like to search and see what other denominations as well as other churches (born again and not) teach about that.
Nice to see you here again GiGi.
The glory belongs to God.
GBU
I do not believe in the doctrine of "sinless perfection" you are presenting here. It was the teaching of John Wesley who founded the Mehtodist denomination and influenced the emergence of many "holiness" churches. Wesley taught that a believer can reach sinless perfection in this mortal life by following the "methods" he taught. He believed that it is possible for one to get to a point in life where one does not sin anymore in thought, motivation, word, deed, or in omitting to do what is right and not doing it.
But what I have found along with millions of other believers through the centuries is that the longer and deeper we follow our Saviour, Jesus Christ, the more acute is our awareness of our own sinfulness and the many ways we sin each day. Can anyone say that they are following God's will 100% of the time every day for the rest of their life, even in our dreaming, like Jesus did? I doubt this to be true for anyone. What changes in us is a walk of continual repentance and confession of sins to God with the confidence that He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness. And the Holy Spirit leads us to desire to live a godly life of obedience to God, makes us aware when we are in disobedience, and assures us of our standing before the Father as one justified because of the sacrificial death of His Holy and Righteous Son, Jesus.
Part 2.
Although I believers are considered righteous and blameless before God due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, I also believe that part of sanctification is an ongoing working of the Holy Spirit to guide us, show us our sinful habits and doings, and lead us to confess and repent of these sins. To say that one cannot sin any longer as a believer is not borne out in actual human daily living. I believe that any Christian who believes that they no longer sin is denying reality. Consider the way Jesus framed the commandments of God in Matthew 5-7, taking them down to the heart level, not just the outward actions. His words show that our hearts bring sin forward . Even if we do not act on what the heart brings up, it is still sin to, say, lust in our hearts, or think angry thoughts about another person, or be jealous of another, envious, or covet in our hearts what others have. It is still sin for believers to gossip about others, deliver a sharp word to others, lie to or about, belittle, or be dismissive of another. It is still sin to not help someone whom we could help, forget to pray for someone we said we would pray for, be distracted when we worship, neglect to read the Scripture as we have told God we would do, etc.
The differences between a believer and an unbeliever are not that we no longer sin, but that a believer has the Holy spirit living in us to sanctify us, effect grace in us, and turn our hearts to God and His ways when we stray away from him, along with many other blessings we now have because of this indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Believers have been cleansed of their sins due to Jesus' sacrifice. We are given grace that empowers us to say no to sin and yes to what is right for us to do. Unbelievers lack this power nor the will to be obedient to God.
I hope this helps to clarify my viewpoint, Doug. Have a great day today. I am off to run errands.
I think you completely misunderstood my post and my viewpoint. i am not living under the Law or the Old Covenant.
What I was saying about daily sin was of the manner as what Paul says to take every thought captive to the Word of God. So, for example, I heard a song in a store the other day while shopping. It was American Pie by don Maclean. It is a sacrilegious song misusing the names of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This song kept coming up in my mind because the tune is catchy. I had to go to the Lord and ask Him to take that song out of my mind each time. This just shows the sinful nature at work in me.
Or, for another example, if I am in the store and succumb to impulse buying, that is the sinful nature rising up in me again. It is unnecessary for me to buy things I do not need or perhaps will not even use. In such situations, the Holy Spirit makes me aware of these occasions of sin, and I repent and ask for forgiveness and help to resist such things in the future.
I think that every Christian sins daily in thought, word, deed, motivation, or in failing to do what God wants us to do in a situation. That is why John spoke about this in 1John 1, urging us to not think that we are without sin, but to confess our sins to God and be confident that He is faithful and just to cleans us from all unrighteousness.
I do believe that the only way we can stand righteous before God is by the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to us. I do believe that all of my sins are taken away by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. I do believe that His resurrection brings us new life and the hope of the resurrection of our bodies at His second coming.
Please, I ask that you address my viewpoint in replying to me, not evaluate my spiritual condition. I was addressing the doctrine of spiritual perfection as taught by John Wesley and many Pentacostal/holiness churches. I believe this doctrine to be in error.
see part 2
GBU
I am doing well, but dealing with difficult family members in the planning for my Mom's memorial and in matters of her estate.
Mom's the lucky one here, now away and unaffected from all this drama!
I hope my post was helpful to you. I wrote as I understand this topic. But I may be wrong. I hope you study it more. I am sorry I did not post any Scriptures. I hope you and others can search the Scriptures and see if what I say aligns with God's Word.
I am so thankful that you can explain Greek to us! it is very helpful.
I read the posts on here everyday. But, there have not been very many posts that I felt led to respond to. Most posts have been responded to well by others. so, my two cents worth isn't needed.
Have a good evening. Catch you tomorrow.
I am intrigued by this conversation. it makes me think about this topic more deeply. I do think that believers still possess the sin nature that we inherited from Adam's disobedience and that our moral nature, which was created good in God's eyes, was corrupted, lacking that goodness that God created it to be at the first. Along with our moral nature becoming corrupted and not able to respond to God without His mercy and grace, I believe that our spiritual nature died with Adam as well. So, not only did our nature become corrupted and in bondage to sin, we have a loss of a spiritual nature that was to be in communion with God and able to interact with Him as Adam did in the Garden before he sinned.
When one is regenerated, our spiritual nature is made alive once again, enabling us to turn to God through the grace bestowed by the Holy Spirit along with the faith He supplies to us. Our corrupted nature remains intact, but now our spiritual nature is alive and able to access God's power to resist sin and become more and more like our Lord by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Having made our spiritual nature alive to God, the Holy Spirit can live in us and commune with our regenerated spiritual nature. The sinful nature can be overcome by our spiritual nature because the Holy Spirit works in and through our spiritual nature to choose what is right before God.
In this way, our nature does change from a dead spiritual nature and sinful nature (that was added to us dur to the fall) to an alive spiritual nature that is made stronger than the sinful nature due to the union of this nature with the Holy Spirit living in us. This spiritual nature wars with our sinful nature as long as we are in this earthly life. But, as you said. we will continue to sin in this life here until we die and become alive again for eternity, having then put off our sinful nature for good. As believers we know that our sins are forgiven by the offering of Jesus on the cross.
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