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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 195615
Here is a very important truth that is not discussed often and one that can tie a lot of loose ends.
What does works of the flesh and the works of law have in common? And how does it contrast Fruit of the Spirit. And what does baptism "Not water baptism" has to do with it?
When talking about salvation we like to consider verses like John 3:16. Romans 10:9. and others. But what does born from above spoken by Jesus in John 3:7 means and how should the new birth effect the believer in a way the old nature could not?
Here's just a few reference verses.
Galatians 2:16. Galatians 5:19-21.
Galatians 5:22-24. John 15:1-6.
John 3:7.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So, then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:1-11.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
1. Works of the Flesh Being morally bad, doing all kinds of shameful things, causing trouble, causing people to argue, dividing people into separate groups, and hating people God knows your heart. God knows if you were trying to be nice and He knows if you are trying to start trouble.
2. The "works of the law" are the actions performed to fulfill the Mosaic Law found in the first five books of the Old Testament. Keeping the Sabbath, being circumcised (the issue before the Galatian churches), eating "clean" foods, and other ceremonies are powerless to justify us in the sight of God.
**Answer to the thing they have in common is: they were written before Christ died and Resurrected to save us, changing EVERYTHING. IN JESUS OWN AND LAST WORDS.. "IT IS FINISHED".
3. Fruit of the spirit is: ***Fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the result of the Holy Spirit's presence and working in the lives of maturing believers and is itemized in Galatians 5:22-23. In the context of these verses, the singular fruit of the Spirit is contrasted with the plural works of the flesh ( 5:19-21). The fruit of the Spirit is the natural result of the presence of the Holy Spirit residing in a believer. Therefore spiritual baptism is just that.! Once you have the holy spirit in you and are living a godly life believing in No-one but HIM..you are baptized in the spirit.
In conclusion: Once we except Christ as our Lord & Savior we are saved by Gods grace (new way/reborn or born again) this way we no longer follow old testament rules and laws. The old nature people had to sacrifice for sins. JESUS WAS OUR SACRIFICE for ALL sins AND for EVERYONE WHO EXCEPTS HIM..PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
Qs...I've heard 2 different things about baptism. What is your opinion? I believe that once Christ resurrected for us and we are spiritually baptized once we except Him in all that apply, there is no need to get water baptism. can yet not necessary. Yet I keep getting flack for it.
*Q: My friends say that if you are not baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Holy Ghost then I'm not saved and going to hell! Is that true? I believe Jesus is God and came to earth to save us from sins.
*A: The Bible indicates that baptism is not required in order to have your sins forgiven and spend eternity with God. If we were to look at the passages in the New Testament that discuss "being saved" or "salvation," we would discover that only 5 of 27 mention baptism. Not one of those five teach baptism is required to be saved. The five references to baptism are found in Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38 and 1 Pet. 3:21. When only five out of twenty-seven passages refer to baptism, we must ask, "Is baptism required in order to have our sins forgiven?" If baptism is essential for salvation, why was it not mentioned in the other twenty-two passages? Why would God allow that to happen? If it is needed to be saved, then very important information was left out. If we look at the five passages closely, we discover that the passages do not teach that baptism is required in order to be saved, that is, to have our sins forgiven. We would encourage you to read the study titled, "Baptism and Salvation." It explains that those five passages do not teach that baptism is necessary. Baptism is only a symbol of your faith. Being baptized is an act of an inner submission to Jesus. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.*But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law*.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Gal. 5:16, 18, 2 ***But if one is a Christian, one will get baptized as an act of obedience; and the Holy Spirit will do a work in one's life to make one more like Jesus. Then we will see the fruit of the Spirit. God bless & be w/all misinterpriters
What I find noteworthy about the baptism debate is that some seem to work hard to avoid something while others work hard to follow God's commands. Which one is priority? Is it normal for a genuine Christ followers to do the very minimum, or is it more healthy for Christ followers to be excited about following ALL of God's commands without hesitation or excuse? What is the greater risk? To risk disobeying God or to risk potentially doing something extra to honor God?
Acts 2:38 ...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...
"Surely not me though, it doesn't say it in other verses..."
"every one of you"
"Not Christians though"
"every one of you"
"probably not me though"
"every one of you"
"because of [excuse] I can't though"
"every one of you"
"I'm sure there's some other verses I can cherry pick to get out of this, though..."
"every one of you"
"No thanks, I don't feel like it."
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Luke 6:46 - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
James 1:22 - "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
Jesus speaking of baptism was to the Jews at that time. Yet once He was resurrected we are baptized with the spirit by the grace of God. Not cherry picking, study the bible as He says to and you too will know the TRUTH soon enough. For this reason exactly why God sent His son to die for us. people still believe the old ways and not follow Christ BDBR (Birth for He was born of a virgin, Death for He died for our sins, Burial to carry our sins to the depths and His Resurrection for our justification. Which justification means "Just if I'd" never sinned. So if your not believing this you are saying God made a mistake. God doesn't make mistakes my friend.
Texsis, your teachings was not held by the early church historically. Water baptism was the norm. Jesus said to go into ALL nations making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Can't get any plainer than that from the mouth of our Lord who is TRUTH. No where in the New Testament does it say that Jesus' instructions to baptize in water was only for the Jews and that His instructions were changed or superseded by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Be careful of who you say is "cherry picking" verses to support one's point of view.
correction: that was to say I'm not cherry picking. someone sent me those words. No need to continue going back and forth over this. the moral of the story is..any & everyone that excepts Christ in their heart is going to heaven. baptism or not. The ppl that except Him just before dying, God forbid they wait that long, have just as much right to heaven as you or I. yet not being able to get baptized before breathing their last breath doesn't mean they will not go to heaven. They're in Gods hands and He will not deny them if they ask Jesus in their heart. In fact, "Jesus", just might be the only word they have time for and beings God knows their heart He will do the rest. AND that WILL be enough for Him. My thanks to everyone that has responded to my beliefs. It shows that you care about the bible and want the best for others. God will bless y'all as we learn His word together. Were 2 or more gather in HIs name.!
Hi Texsis. I realize that you want to end this discussion on water baptism & for good reason, as well it wasn't the purpose of bro. S. Spencer's good thread to engage in it. I've stayed out of this water baptism discussion for those reasons, but just to state, what I gather from the differing beliefs on it, especially whether it is necessary for salvation or not, we have lost sight of how it was originally conducted. When we look at how the apostles & early Church believed & practised water baptism, what we see now (as far as whose responsibility to obey the command, timing of baptism, coupling of repentance & baptism), is far removed from those early years. When we look at the Scriptures of early Church baptism in the Book of Acts & consider that if the Church today sought to practise it accordingly, I believe much of our divergent beliefs would be sorted out. I'll leave it here & just submit it for any who want to re-look at the Scriptures & see where the Church today has gone wrong.
Hello Chris, I agree that if we baptized new believers like they did in the apostle's time our discussion would be different. But in our churches today, there are so many variations concerning water baptism:
"believer" baptism
infant baptism
baptism after receiving doctrinal training
baptism only by clergy
scheduled baptisms times (we baptize on the 4th Sunday of the month, i.e.)
Sprinkling or immersion
re-baptism
And there are many variant beliefs about baptism: what is it's purpose? value? Does it bring forgiveness of sins? Does it a person? Is it part of salvation process? Is it essential to salvation? is it required? Does it accompany the receiving of the Holy Spirit?
From what I have studied, the teaching that: we do not have to obey Christ's commands to be baptized because that was for the Jews and after Jesus went to heaven, it is the Holy Spirit Baptism that we must -is a fairly recent teaching, being introduced only in the last century or so. Before that, in the time of the apostles, water baptism was the norm with the belief that the Holy Spirit cleanses us from sin and indwells us at the time of our conversion and baptism, since these two events normally followed each other closely in time. Infant baptism became common a few centuries after the time of the early church. With the increase in persecution in the early centuries, many people held off being baptized out of fear they should fall away under persecution they would not be able to be re-baptized should they renounce their apostasy. It was in the late 1st and early 2nd century where new believers went through doctrinal instruction before being baptized. I am not sure when this change occurred from being baptized upon conversion in the time of the apostles. If it began being practiced in the churches the apostles visited, it must have been approved by them because there is no mention of this in the epistles or Acts discouraging the practice of doctrinal teaching before baptism.
Thank you GiGi for sharing that info. I didn't realize that the Church started to deviate from accepted practise at such an early stage. Just shows how easily we can be led away from the Bible & re-construct beliefs & practises to suit our Church dogma. And once we begin to stray a little at the beginning, one can rest assured that years & decades later, our beliefs & practises will hardly resemble what the early Church first received.
What should have been a simple straight-forward process of hearing the Gospel (as shared by Peter in Acts 2:14-36), many being cut in the heart ( Acts 2:37), repenting, being baptized & receiving the Holy Spirit ( Acts 2:38), today, in wanting to ensure that water baptism is not entered into lightly, there can be a delay in time of weeks, months, or years. Baptism then becomes something done as a mere ritual not giving regard to it being a necessary, immediate & accompanying part to one's repentance & belief. And we see this with Saul's conversion, Cornelius & those with him, the Philippian jailer, & the Ethiopian eunuch. There would have been no reason for any of these to raise objection to being water baptized, as the practise was simply, 'believe & be baptized' (they went hand-in-hand).
Not so according to today's Church, where one's faith has to be first clearly seen, having at least a basic knowledge of essential doctrines, & waiting, sometimes indefinitely, for the next planned water baptismal service. Is it any wonder why there is confusion & differing beliefs on this matter, when the Church itself has done nothing to rectify it, often leaving it as an optional extra for the new believer. The onus for baptism rests solely on the evangelist/preacher/missionary & not the convert, that as he enters this new spiritual world, he also enters into a new spiritual family who will look after him as a new-born babe, directing & teaching him till others can minister - and water baptism is the first step in his spiritual life.
ok,Texsis, in re-reading I understand your use of the phrase better. Thanks for posting a clarification. I do believe that we are saved by the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit which enables us to believe the Gospel when we hear it spoken or read of it. It is a work of God and not of man. But we are called to make a confession of believing the Gospel with our mouths and in water baptism. I think obedience matters to God, especially on matters such as this.
Ro 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Here is what is highly ignored and is where by we "know! whether God spirit is in us or not. And is what should be a greater concern!
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35.
Here's the sum of it all.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Let me show you what a dear Brother on this site shared,
Take a close look at verse 21! " He who love his God love his brother also!"
Do you notice that doesn't say He who love God "should love his brother also? It says He who love God love his brother ALSO!
This is confirmation that he is in you and you in him! This is a fruit produced by the Holyspirit! And something we have no control of.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh is in darkness.. 1 Jn 2:
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
I find it Amazing that out of the 2000 Characters allowed on these posts, If baptism is mentioned once it draws attention.
If you mention the command to love your brother "And that's whether he holds the same views of baptism or not " Love shuts the thread down!
Most will admit you can be baptized and not be saved, as well as every alter call in the local Church means someone got saved. But they passionately hold to the view you must be baptized by water to be saved!
As Texsis said the scripture doesn't say that. Nowhere!
I would love to see this intense debate on
John 13:34-35.
John 15.
And especially 1 John 2:1-11. Where it speaks of what's contuary to loving your brother which is hating your brother! and sadly over a view!
I'm not here to judge but it seems the fruit that confirms a live branch seems to be lacking from some!
Is this because the foundation you're they're standing on is built by your own works?
This Post was never about water baptism, It was about fruit barring, the old nature crucified, and the baptism of the Holyspirit which sanctifies a believer Positionally and practically and puts us in the body of Christ with other believers.
This is why I felt Texsis asked a good question that was fitting to the post. Because only the baptism of the Holyspirit brings new life and the beginning of a better covenant.
I agree you that not everyone who is baptized is saved by being baptized. But in the same vein, I disagree that everyone who comes forward for an altar call or says a "winner sinner" prayer is saved. Many people who respond to an altar call or say such a prayer did not hear the true Gospel, but a "seeker-friendly" version that does not honestly speak of the person's abject sinfulness, absolute need for salvation because the alternative is a n eternity in hell as God's just judgment on sinners along with the good news of Who Jesus is and what He has done to save us so that our sins can be forgiven and we can repent of sin and live a new life in God. Many people didn't hear a message like that and had no conviction of sin or feel a need to repent. They wanted the "perks" of salvation without "counting the cost". I have been in a multitude of services where a faulty altar call was given and people came forward, but did not really get saved at that time. Also, I know of many people who were baptized that went on to apostatize or simply did it for "tradition sake". So, I think there is a right way to preach the Gospel to stir one's heart to repent and receive what God has offered and already done in their hearts and I think there is a right way for water baptism to be presented, practiced, and received. I think there is the command for both to be done, preach the true Gospel and water baptize new believers. And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles.
Thanks for replying. I think we both agree on everyone being water baptized is not saved and we both agree everyone that makes an alter call is not saved, I reaffirm that hoping I script it in that way.
However we will have to agree to disagree on this statement of yours.
"And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles."
I don't believe today there has to be a laying on the hands to receive the Holyspirit. But not interested in a debate.
Thanks again for a helpful response. In my experience in the Assembly of God church and the Four Square church, the laying on of hands to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit is commonly practiced, although it is rarely practiced following a water baptism for a new convert.
Thanks for your reply, and always so great to hear from you.
We were discussing the subject of water baptism, but I will defer from that, to answer you - regarding the two greatest commandments.
You certainly won't get any disagreement with me regarding these two (2) greatest commandments that Jesus emphasized while here on earth. Love God, and love our neighbor's as ourselves! Jesus also tells us that "all the law" hang from these TWO!
Matthew 22:40
"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
So, if the Holy Spirit is truly working in us - to help us to follow the 2 greatest commandments, it only makes sense that we will also be following all of God's 10 commandments since "these laws" are incorporated into the TWO greatest Laws - per Jesus in Matthew 22:40
Thanks for pointing that out. It should read "Here we have the quickening spirit by the "last" Adam that gives life under a new covenant where the old covenant brought death to the fleshly descendants of the first Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.
I believe that we should obey the commands of Jesus Christ given to us from His mouth in His earthly life before He died and resurrected along with those commands He gave us after His resurrection. He commanded us to be baptized. So, to me, it is a small thing to chose to obey Him in this. It is how we show that we love Him.
Good choice. I'm baptized as well for the same reason. I was merely stating a fact that we are baptized of the spirit already tho it wont hurt to do both. God bless "Texsis"
I believe the question is, "is water baptism ESSENTIAL for salvation?" No! It's the Holy spirit that gives life to a sinner dead in trespasses and sin.
Ephesians 1:22-Ephesians 2:1 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins."
I was water baptized, it was ritual and pointed to what has already taken place once I believed. I was put into the body of believers by the spirit."
Now whatever good I do is by the power of the Holyspirit. that is what the baptism is all about. A NEW LIFE! The focus is on the resurrection! By which way were we given new life?
Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4.
The disciples were given a command to go out teach all nations baptizing them, which was a dispensational teaching. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19.
What we have here is a picture of those being saved grafted into the genuine vine, one that gives life and produces fruit as seen in john 15:1-5. And Paul hammers at this in Romans 11.
The emphasis is on the Holyspirit empowering the believer.
I am not sure the original question here was "Is water baptism essential for salvation?" I will say that Jesus said that it is what new disciples are to do when they believe the Gospel. That is not saying it is part of our salvation because salvation is all a work of God and not of man. This is termed as monergism (a one-sided salvation), as opposed to synergism (where God and man brings about salvation). Yet Scripture clearly teaches about man's response to the salvation received from God-repent from one's sinfulness, believe in one's heart, confess with one's mouth, and be baptized. So, will repenting, believing, confessing, and being baptized are all done by man, none of these saves a person. It is Christ's work and the Father's will and the Spirits power that saves us. But, that said, when we repent we avow that we are sinful and wish to turn from our sinfulness, when believe we are using the faith the Spirit gave us, when we confess, we are agreeing with what God has done to save us, and when we are baptized in water, we are attesting to being cleansed from all sin. I think that all of these things are important as we come into the reality of being regenerated and recipients of this salvation.
God is the judge of all creatures. He knows who He predestined and called. He knows who He has regenerated and justified. Our part is to love God and in loving Him we will do what He commands us to do: repent, believe, confess, be baptized, live a godly life, learn true doctrine, study His Word, pray, etc. All of these things are hallmarks of a regenerated person and witness to the saving work of God in each believer. Our redemption is not based on us doing anything. We were dead in our sins, separated from God, and at enmity to Him. We are unable to come to Him on our own, but it He Who draws us to Him and causes us to hear or read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is He who makes us alive so that we can respond to His call and work in us.
I believe you are responding to my response to Texsis.
Here's what's noted.
Qs...I've heard 2 different things about baptism. What is your opinion? I believe that once Christ resurrected for us and we are spiritually baptized once we except Him in all that apply, there is no need to get water baptism. can yet not necessary. Yet I keep getting flack for it.
The root of this debate is requirement and always have been. On this thread the evidence is in the parties participating, Adam and Bro Dan has always made it clear that it's a requirement. You have been part of that debate in the recent past also. I know you say you don't believe it does but you argue along side them so you should know.
Secondly, salvation is death and a new birth "AND" sanctification. Not just Positionally where we're hidden in Christ. but practically where he lives in us. We've recieved the earnest of the spirit. This takes us to Romans 6:4. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Baptism means Identified.
We are Identified with the death meaning the penalty and the power of the old nature is to be recognized as crucified. And we are Identified with Christ resurrection in where we walk in newness of life. That's why the chapter opens up like this- Romans 6:1-4.
So I don't hold the view water baptism symbolizes cleansing of the sins because that notion doesn't complete the Identification. "Baptized into his resurrection.
So I believe When the scripture says believe and be baptized it don't necessarily mean water baptism. It means what takes place once you believe. The baptism John spoke of which is not of man but the Holyspirit. Matthew 3:11.
Hello, Steven, thanks for your response to me. I don't think I have ever said that water baptism is a requirement for salvation.
I have said that we are required to obey the commands of Jesus, since He commands us to do so in several instances. And He did command the disciples to baptize new believers and I believe that this means water baptism. I will never say that as a matter of course that the church should not practice water baptism any longer because we are "spirit baptized" when we accept Jesus, as you said. Jesus never taught that, and the apostles never taught that idea in the way you stated it. So, I think we agree that water baptism does not save a person and is not required for salvation to occur. But I think we disagree about whether Jesus was talking about water baptism or Spirit baptism in the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18.
It's o.k. with me to agree to disagree concerning this matter. I am glad that this forum allows believers to speak their views and to wrestle with topics that come up concerning the will of God.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
John said I baptize with water he who is coming after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Now, Is Jesus still baptizing with the Holy Ghost? Yes. He does that through the preaching of the gospel and you receiving the message through open eyes and a blood tipped ear. This call goes out to jew and Gentiles, Before the crucifixion Christ was gathering the lost sheep of Israel, The king was in their midst and the kingdom was at hand, John the baptist came to pronounce that. Did Jesus ask the Disciples to baptize the lost sheep of Israel or anyone else BEFORE they crucified him, No. His Death had to bring on a new covenant. The circumcision of the heart. No more a commandment, IT'S NOW A CONDITION. Hebrews 8:6-11. He now put his law in man's heart. "Circumcision of the heart"
and only the baptism of the Holyspirit can do that. In Acts 2:38 the jews was asked to repent, this was very new to them.
Again, this was all Israel.
see Acts 2:36.
Now, everyone taught didn't believe, were they baptized? No, You had to believe. see Acts 8:35-37.
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; WHAT DOTH HINDER ME TO BE BAPTIZED?
And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Note:
1 Corinthians 12:13.
Ephesians 4:4-5.
We're put into the body by that 1 baptism and that's the baptism John the baptist referred Israel to. The Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:18-19. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do you notice no ask of repentance?
This is beyond Jerusalem. This power is of Jesus, His baptism.
Thank you for the good explanation to my question. There is nothing you wrote that I disagree with. I appreciate your response.
One thing, I just did not read in your original posting on this thread the statement, "Is water baptism necessary (or essential) for salvation?"
If you had simply stated that in a post to begin a thread, I think the responses would differ than what has been stated in responses. Maybe that is a question to be posted simply as it is, without any other dialogue, should you really want to discuss that question.
Have a good evening, Steven. Last night was wild in the neighborhood here with fireworks going off everywhere until midnight. I could not get to sleep until after they ceased. But once a year is fine with me.
Israel was the only Nation given a God given religion, they were asked to repent. Here you have a great transition, the veil was rent earlier and now we see a transition from law to grace, No more circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. that's why John the baptist said in Matthew 3:8-10 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Paul says it in Romans 1:16. "Chronology" it is to the Jew first. This conversation of repentance can only be given to a God given Nation and religion. (JUDAISM.) No longer Identified by circumcision of the flesh but Identified with Christ and THEN carry the message to the ends of the earth.
They were to repent and be baptized believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
When we are saved we are baptized by water to give a witness that we are baptized by the Holyspirit and Identified with Christ. So all throughout Acts these steps were highlighted.
There was an beginning of a new covenant.
John the baptist was preparing the way for the Lord for Israel. He came in screaming prepare the way for the Lord
Announcing a kingdom "Before " the King was rejected, This was the baptism of John.
When Jesus sent the Desciples out to teach all baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holyspirit, That speaks of the working power of his Death and Resurrection to those who believe.
S Spencer. on Romans 8:1-11. - In Reply - 2 years ago
Part 2.
Let me pause for a second to say this is not a message on whether we keep the commandments or not. This is about the nature of the Un generated heart of man apart from Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit by those who are in Christ.
When speaking of the law we think of the writings of Moses and the commandments, etc.
Let's take a look at the purpose of the law and the effects and condition of those under it.
THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW.
Galatians 3:24.
Also take a look at Romans 7:7 .... (I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.)
THE EFFECTS AND CODITION OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW.
Here in Romans 7:23. we have Paul describing the warring of the old nature and the new nature in a believer.
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Here in Romans 8:3-7. we have a picture of the flesh held captive by the curse of the law.
(For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,)
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
THE LAWS CONCLUSION.
So, the law showed us our fallen and sinful condition, and the law also couldn't change the heart of man that's why we have to be born from above. This is what the new birth does and how it is in relationship to baptism. As seen Galatians 3:24-27.
S Spencer. Romans 8:1-11. - In Reply - 2 years ago
Part 3.
In Acts 15 the Disciples have a counsel on whether the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the law, then Peter stands up to address the matter. Acts 15:7-11. Here you have the apostle Peter "A Jew" saying in verse 11, we Jews shall be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles! (By faith) "He's declaring "we jews have to come to the Lord by a new covenant".
This is the new birth spoken by Jesus in John 3:5 when speaking to Nicodemus. This is that which is spoken in
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
So here we have a new birth that provides a new nature that is generated by the Holyspirit. You see aspects of this in
Romans 6:1-23. Also, this is what is meant in John 4:21-24.
Here we have the quickening spirit by the second Adam that gives life under a new covenant where the old covenant brought death to the fleshly descendants of the first Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45-50. and 2 Corinthians 5:1-6.
Ephesians 2:1-5 sums it up.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
"AGAIN We're not talking about "Justification" we're talking about sanctification. Romans 5:1-21 handles justification.
GRAFTED INTO THE VINE BY THE RESURECTION OF CHRIST.
John 15:1-5.
Romans 6:6.
Now take these chapters in order-
Romans 6:1-23.
Romans 7:1-25.
Romans 8:1-39.
We are Justified and Sanctified by the blood of Christ and given a new nature under a new covenant that bares fruit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Not sure what is meant by 2nd Adam or conversation in times past.? Only 1 Adam in the bible and we only live once till we die and go to heaven with Christ or hell with satan.
Here is a very important truth that is not discussed often and one that can tie a lot of loose ends.
What does works of the flesh and the works of law have in common? And how does it contrast Fruit of the Spirit. And what does baptism "Not water baptism" has to do with it?
When talking about salvation we like to consider verses like John 3:16. Romans 10:9. and others. But what does born from above spoken by Jesus in John 3:7 means and how should the new birth effect the believer in a way the old nature could not?
Here's just a few reference verses.
Galatians 2:16. Galatians 5:19-21.
Galatians 5:22-24. John 15:1-6.
John 3:7.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So, then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:1-11.
Sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
See Part 2.
2. The "works of the law" are the actions performed to fulfill the Mosaic Law found in the first five books of the Old Testament. Keeping the Sabbath, being circumcised (the issue before the Galatian churches), eating "clean" foods, and other ceremonies are powerless to justify us in the sight of God.
**Answer to the thing they have in common is: they were written before Christ died and Resurrected to save us, changing EVERYTHING. IN JESUS OWN AND LAST WORDS.. "IT IS FINISHED".
3. Fruit of the spirit is: ***Fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the result of the Holy Spirit's presence and working in the lives of maturing believers and is itemized in Galatians 5:22-23. In the context of these verses, the singular fruit of the Spirit is contrasted with the plural works of the flesh ( 5:19-21). The fruit of the Spirit is the natural result of the presence of the Holy Spirit residing in a believer. Therefore spiritual baptism is just that.! Once you have the holy spirit in you and are living a godly life believing in No-one but HIM..you are baptized in the spirit.
In conclusion: Once we except Christ as our Lord & Savior we are saved by Gods grace (new way/reborn or born again) this way we no longer follow old testament rules and laws. The old nature people had to sacrifice for sins. JESUS WAS OUR SACRIFICE for ALL sins AND for EVERYONE WHO EXCEPTS HIM..PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
Did Jesus tell us to be baptized ? Yes he did.
Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Jesus and all of His Apostles, including Paul were baptized (in water), and they followed Jesus commands and baptized others in water.
Easy to understand, but leave it to man to confound himself!
God bless
*A: The Bible indicates that baptism is not required in order to have your sins forgiven and spend eternity with God. If we were to look at the passages in the New Testament that discuss "being saved" or "salvation," we would discover that only 5 of 27 mention baptism. Not one of those five teach baptism is required to be saved. The five references to baptism are found in Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38 and 1 Pet. 3:21. When only five out of twenty-seven passages refer to baptism, we must ask, "Is baptism required in order to have our sins forgiven?" If baptism is essential for salvation, why was it not mentioned in the other twenty-two passages? Why would God allow that to happen? If it is needed to be saved, then very important information was left out. If we look at the five passages closely, we discover that the passages do not teach that baptism is required in order to be saved, that is, to have our sins forgiven. We would encourage you to read the study titled, "Baptism and Salvation." It explains that those five passages do not teach that baptism is necessary. Baptism is only a symbol of your faith. Being baptized is an act of an inner submission to Jesus. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.*But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law*.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Gal. 5:16, 18, 2 ***But if one is a Christian, one will get baptized as an act of obedience; and the Holy Spirit will do a work in one's life to make one more like Jesus. Then we will see the fruit of the Spirit. God bless & be w/all misinterpriters
Acts 2:38 ...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...
"Surely not me though, it doesn't say it in other verses..."
"every one of you"
"Not Christians though"
"every one of you"
"probably not me though"
"every one of you"
"because of [excuse] I can't though"
"every one of you"
"I'm sure there's some other verses I can cherry pick to get out of this, though..."
"every one of you"
"No thanks, I don't feel like it."
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Luke 6:46 - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
James 1:22 - "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
"believer" baptism
infant baptism
baptism after receiving doctrinal training
baptism only by clergy
scheduled baptisms times (we baptize on the 4th Sunday of the month, i.e.)
Sprinkling or immersion
re-baptism
And there are many variant beliefs about baptism: what is it's purpose? value? Does it bring forgiveness of sins? Does it a person? Is it part of salvation process? Is it essential to salvation? is it required? Does it accompany the receiving of the Holy Spirit?
From what I have studied, the teaching that: we do not have to obey Christ's commands to be baptized because that was for the Jews and after Jesus went to heaven, it is the Holy Spirit Baptism that we must -is a fairly recent teaching, being introduced only in the last century or so. Before that, in the time of the apostles, water baptism was the norm with the belief that the Holy Spirit cleanses us from sin and indwells us at the time of our conversion and baptism, since these two events normally followed each other closely in time. Infant baptism became common a few centuries after the time of the early church. With the increase in persecution in the early centuries, many people held off being baptized out of fear they should fall away under persecution they would not be able to be re-baptized should they renounce their apostasy. It was in the late 1st and early 2nd century where new believers went through doctrinal instruction before being baptized. I am not sure when this change occurred from being baptized upon conversion in the time of the apostles. If it began being practiced in the churches the apostles visited, it must have been approved by them because there is no mention of this in the epistles or Acts discouraging the practice of doctrinal teaching before baptism.
What should have been a simple straight-forward process of hearing the Gospel (as shared by Peter in Acts 2:14-36), many being cut in the heart ( Acts 2:37), repenting, being baptized & receiving the Holy Spirit ( Acts 2:38), today, in wanting to ensure that water baptism is not entered into lightly, there can be a delay in time of weeks, months, or years. Baptism then becomes something done as a mere ritual not giving regard to it being a necessary, immediate & accompanying part to one's repentance & belief. And we see this with Saul's conversion, Cornelius & those with him, the Philippian jailer, & the Ethiopian eunuch. There would have been no reason for any of these to raise objection to being water baptized, as the practise was simply, 'believe & be baptized' (they went hand-in-hand).
Not so according to today's Church, where one's faith has to be first clearly seen, having at least a basic knowledge of essential doctrines, & waiting, sometimes indefinitely, for the next planned water baptismal service. Is it any wonder why there is confusion & differing beliefs on this matter, when the Church itself has done nothing to rectify it, often leaving it as an optional extra for the new believer. The onus for baptism rests solely on the evangelist/preacher/missionary & not the convert, that as he enters this new spiritual world, he also enters into a new spiritual family who will look after him as a new-born babe, directing & teaching him till others can minister - and water baptism is the first step in his spiritual life.
Ro 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Here is what is highly ignored and is where by we "know! whether God spirit is in us or not. And is what should be a greater concern!
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35.
Here's the sum of it all.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Let me show you what a dear Brother on this site shared,
Take a close look at verse 21! " He who love his God love his brother also!"
Do you notice that doesn't say He who love God "should love his brother also? It says He who love God love his brother ALSO!
This is confirmation that he is in you and you in him! This is a fruit produced by the Holyspirit! And something we have no control of.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh is in darkness.. 1 Jn 2:
1 John 2:11
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
I find it Amazing that out of the 2000 Characters allowed on these posts, If baptism is mentioned once it draws attention.
If you mention the command to love your brother "And that's whether he holds the same views of baptism or not " Love shuts the thread down!
Most will admit you can be baptized and not be saved, as well as every alter call in the local Church means someone got saved. But they passionately hold to the view you must be baptized by water to be saved!
As Texsis said the scripture doesn't say that. Nowhere!
I would love to see this intense debate on
John 13:34-35.
John 15.
And especially 1 John 2:1-11. Where it speaks of what's contuary to loving your brother which is hating your brother! and sadly over a view!
I'm not here to judge but it seems the fruit that confirms a live branch seems to be lacking from some!
Is this because the foundation you're they're standing on is built by your own works?
This Post was never about water baptism, It was about fruit barring, the old nature crucified, and the baptism of the Holyspirit which sanctifies a believer Positionally and practically and puts us in the body of Christ with other believers.
This is why I felt Texsis asked a good question that was fitting to the post. Because only the baptism of the Holyspirit brings new life and the beginning of a better covenant.
God bless.
I agree you that not everyone who is baptized is saved by being baptized. But in the same vein, I disagree that everyone who comes forward for an altar call or says a "winner sinner" prayer is saved. Many people who respond to an altar call or say such a prayer did not hear the true Gospel, but a "seeker-friendly" version that does not honestly speak of the person's abject sinfulness, absolute need for salvation because the alternative is a n eternity in hell as God's just judgment on sinners along with the good news of Who Jesus is and what He has done to save us so that our sins can be forgiven and we can repent of sin and live a new life in God. Many people didn't hear a message like that and had no conviction of sin or feel a need to repent. They wanted the "perks" of salvation without "counting the cost". I have been in a multitude of services where a faulty altar call was given and people came forward, but did not really get saved at that time. Also, I know of many people who were baptized that went on to apostatize or simply did it for "tradition sake". So, I think there is a right way to preach the Gospel to stir one's heart to repent and receive what God has offered and already done in their hearts and I think there is a right way for water baptism to be presented, practiced, and received. I think there is the command for both to be done, preach the true Gospel and water baptize new believers. And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles.
Thanks for replying. I think we both agree on everyone being water baptized is not saved and we both agree everyone that makes an alter call is not saved, I reaffirm that hoping I script it in that way.
However we will have to agree to disagree on this statement of yours.
"And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles."
I don't believe today there has to be a laying on the hands to receive the Holyspirit. But not interested in a debate.
Thanks and God bless.
Thanks again for a helpful response. In my experience in the Assembly of God church and the Four Square church, the laying on of hands to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit is commonly practiced, although it is rarely practiced following a water baptism for a new convert.
Thanks for your reply, and always so great to hear from you.
We were discussing the subject of water baptism, but I will defer from that, to answer you - regarding the two greatest commandments.
You certainly won't get any disagreement with me regarding these two (2) greatest commandments that Jesus emphasized while here on earth. Love God, and love our neighbor's as ourselves! Jesus also tells us that "all the law" hang from these TWO!
Matthew 22:40
"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
So, if the Holy Spirit is truly working in us - to help us to follow the 2 greatest commandments, it only makes sense that we will also be following all of God's 10 commandments since "these laws" are incorporated into the TWO greatest Laws - per Jesus in Matthew 22:40
GB
Sorry for a delayed response, I've been working and replying all day.
You've given me Mathew 22:40. That's not the verses I gave you and the Mathew verse you gave is out of context.
Here is the verses I gave. John 13:34-35. 1 John 2:1-11. and 1 John 4:21. It's getting late so let's take this up tomorrow.
Thanks and God bless.
Thanks for pointing that out. It should read "Here we have the quickening spirit by the "last" Adam that gives life under a new covenant where the old covenant brought death to the fleshly descendants of the first Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.
God bless.
.
I believe that we should obey the commands of Jesus Christ given to us from His mouth in His earthly life before He died and resurrected along with those commands He gave us after His resurrection. He commanded us to be baptized. So, to me, it is a small thing to chose to obey Him in this. It is how we show that we love Him.
Thanks for replying.
I believe the question is, "is water baptism ESSENTIAL for salvation?" No! It's the Holy spirit that gives life to a sinner dead in trespasses and sin.
Ephesians 1:22- Ephesians 2:1 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins."
I was water baptized, it was ritual and pointed to what has already taken place once I believed. I was put into the body of believers by the spirit."
Now whatever good I do is by the power of the Holyspirit. that is what the baptism is all about. A NEW LIFE! The focus is on the resurrection! By which way were we given new life?
Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4.
The disciples were given a command to go out teach all nations baptizing them, which was a dispensational teaching. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19.
What we have here is a picture of those being saved grafted into the genuine vine, one that gives life and produces fruit as seen in john 15:1-5. And Paul hammers at this in Romans 11.
The emphasis is on the Holyspirit empowering the believer.
God bless.
I am not sure the original question here was "Is water baptism essential for salvation?" I will say that Jesus said that it is what new disciples are to do when they believe the Gospel. That is not saying it is part of our salvation because salvation is all a work of God and not of man. This is termed as monergism (a one-sided salvation), as opposed to synergism (where God and man brings about salvation). Yet Scripture clearly teaches about man's response to the salvation received from God-repent from one's sinfulness, believe in one's heart, confess with one's mouth, and be baptized. So, will repenting, believing, confessing, and being baptized are all done by man, none of these saves a person. It is Christ's work and the Father's will and the Spirits power that saves us. But, that said, when we repent we avow that we are sinful and wish to turn from our sinfulness, when believe we are using the faith the Spirit gave us, when we confess, we are agreeing with what God has done to save us, and when we are baptized in water, we are attesting to being cleansed from all sin. I think that all of these things are important as we come into the reality of being regenerated and recipients of this salvation.
God is the judge of all creatures. He knows who He predestined and called. He knows who He has regenerated and justified. Our part is to love God and in loving Him we will do what He commands us to do: repent, believe, confess, be baptized, live a godly life, learn true doctrine, study His Word, pray, etc. All of these things are hallmarks of a regenerated person and witness to the saving work of God in each believer. Our redemption is not based on us doing anything. We were dead in our sins, separated from God, and at enmity to Him. We are unable to come to Him on our own, but it He Who draws us to Him and causes us to hear or read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is He who makes us alive so that we can respond to His call and work in us.
I believe you are responding to my response to Texsis.
Here's what's noted.
Qs...I've heard 2 different things about baptism. What is your opinion? I believe that once Christ resurrected for us and we are spiritually baptized once we except Him in all that apply, there is no need to get water baptism. can yet not necessary. Yet I keep getting flack for it.
The root of this debate is requirement and always have been. On this thread the evidence is in the parties participating, Adam and Bro Dan has always made it clear that it's a requirement. You have been part of that debate in the recent past also. I know you say you don't believe it does but you argue along side them so you should know.
Secondly, salvation is death and a new birth "AND" sanctification. Not just Positionally where we're hidden in Christ. but practically where he lives in us. We've recieved the earnest of the spirit. This takes us to Romans 6:4. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Baptism means Identified.
We are Identified with the death meaning the penalty and the power of the old nature is to be recognized as crucified. And we are Identified with Christ resurrection in where we walk in newness of life. That's why the chapter opens up like this- Romans 6:1-4.
So I don't hold the view water baptism symbolizes cleansing of the sins because that notion doesn't complete the Identification. "Baptized into his resurrection.
So I believe When the scripture says believe and be baptized it don't necessarily mean water baptism. It means what takes place once you believe. The baptism John spoke of which is not of man but the Holyspirit. Matthew 3:11.
God bless.
I have said that we are required to obey the commands of Jesus, since He commands us to do so in several instances. And He did command the disciples to baptize new believers and I believe that this means water baptism. I will never say that as a matter of course that the church should not practice water baptism any longer because we are "spirit baptized" when we accept Jesus, as you said. Jesus never taught that, and the apostles never taught that idea in the way you stated it. So, I think we agree that water baptism does not save a person and is not required for salvation to occur. But I think we disagree about whether Jesus was talking about water baptism or Spirit baptism in the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18.
It's o.k. with me to agree to disagree concerning this matter. I am glad that this forum allows believers to speak their views and to wrestle with topics that come up concerning the will of God.
Can you explain to me what you mean by Jesus command to make disciples and baptize is a dispensational teaching?
Sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
See Part 2.
Part 3.
John said I baptize with water he who is coming after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Now, Is Jesus still baptizing with the Holy Ghost? Yes. He does that through the preaching of the gospel and you receiving the message through open eyes and a blood tipped ear. This call goes out to jew and Gentiles, Before the crucifixion Christ was gathering the lost sheep of Israel, The king was in their midst and the kingdom was at hand, John the baptist came to pronounce that. Did Jesus ask the Disciples to baptize the lost sheep of Israel or anyone else BEFORE they crucified him, No. His Death had to bring on a new covenant. The circumcision of the heart. No more a commandment, IT'S NOW A CONDITION. Hebrews 8:6-11. He now put his law in man's heart. "Circumcision of the heart"
and only the baptism of the Holyspirit can do that. In Acts 2:38 the jews was asked to repent, this was very new to them.
Again, this was all Israel.
see Acts 2:36.
Now, everyone taught didn't believe, were they baptized? No, You had to believe. see Acts 8:35-37.
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; WHAT DOTH HINDER ME TO BE BAPTIZED?
And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Note:
1 Corinthians 12:13.
Ephesians 4:4-5.
We're put into the body by that 1 baptism and that's the baptism John the baptist referred Israel to. The Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:18-19. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do you notice no ask of repentance?
This is beyond Jerusalem. This power is of Jesus, His baptism.
God bless.
Thank you for the good explanation to my question. There is nothing you wrote that I disagree with. I appreciate your response.
One thing, I just did not read in your original posting on this thread the statement, "Is water baptism necessary (or essential) for salvation?"
If you had simply stated that in a post to begin a thread, I think the responses would differ than what has been stated in responses. Maybe that is a question to be posted simply as it is, without any other dialogue, should you really want to discuss that question.
Have a good evening, Steven. Last night was wild in the neighborhood here with fireworks going off everywhere until midnight. I could not get to sleep until after they ceased. But once a year is fine with me.
Part 2.The transition.
Israel was the only Nation given a God given religion, they were asked to repent. Here you have a great transition, the veil was rent earlier and now we see a transition from law to grace, No more circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. that's why John the baptist said in Matthew 3:8-10 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Paul says it in Romans 1:16. "Chronology" it is to the Jew first. This conversation of repentance can only be given to a God given Nation and religion. (JUDAISM.) No longer Identified by circumcision of the flesh but Identified with Christ and THEN carry the message to the ends of the earth.
They were to repent and be baptized believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
When we are saved we are baptized by water to give a witness that we are baptized by the Holyspirit and Identified with Christ. So all throughout Acts these steps were highlighted.
There was an beginning of a new covenant.
John the baptist was preparing the way for the Lord for Israel. He came in screaming prepare the way for the Lord
Announcing a kingdom "Before " the King was rejected, This was the baptism of John.
When Jesus sent the Desciples out to teach all baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holyspirit, That speaks of the working power of his Death and Resurrection to those who believe.
See Part 3.
God bless.
Let me pause for a second to say this is not a message on whether we keep the commandments or not. This is about the nature of the Un generated heart of man apart from Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit by those who are in Christ.
When speaking of the law we think of the writings of Moses and the commandments, etc.
Let's take a look at the purpose of the law and the effects and condition of those under it.
THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW.
Galatians 3:24.
Also take a look at Romans 7:7 .... (I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.)
THE EFFECTS AND CODITION OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW.
Here in Romans 7:23. we have Paul describing the warring of the old nature and the new nature in a believer.
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Here in Romans 8:3-7. we have a picture of the flesh held captive by the curse of the law.
(For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,)
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
THE LAWS CONCLUSION.
So, the law showed us our fallen and sinful condition, and the law also couldn't change the heart of man that's why we have to be born from above. This is what the new birth does and how it is in relationship to baptism. As seen Galatians 3:24-27.
See Pt 3.
In Acts 15 the Disciples have a counsel on whether the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the law, then Peter stands up to address the matter. Acts 15:7-11. Here you have the apostle Peter "A Jew" saying in verse 11, we Jews shall be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles! (By faith) "He's declaring "we jews have to come to the Lord by a new covenant".
This is the new birth spoken by Jesus in John 3:5 when speaking to Nicodemus. This is that which is spoken in
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
So here we have a new birth that provides a new nature that is generated by the Holyspirit. You see aspects of this in
Romans 6:1-23. Also, this is what is meant in John 4:21-24.
Here we have the quickening spirit by the second Adam that gives life under a new covenant where the old covenant brought death to the fleshly descendants of the first Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45-50. and 2 Corinthians 5:1-6.
Ephesians 2:1-5 sums it up.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
"AGAIN We're not talking about "Justification" we're talking about sanctification. Romans 5:1-21 handles justification.
GRAFTED INTO THE VINE BY THE RESURECTION OF CHRIST.
John 15:1-5.
Romans 6:6.
Now take these chapters in order-
Romans 6:1-23.
Romans 7:1-25.
Romans 8:1-39.
We are Justified and Sanctified by the blood of Christ and given a new nature under a new covenant that bares fruit by the power of the Holyspirit.
God bless.
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