Bible Discussion Thread

This more of a question. In Titus 3:1 it tells us to obey our government. If a government by the people has and is leading Christians away from God and His commandments a government that lies, cheats, steals and eat up Gods people like the eat bread that government? Even when that government no longer hides their immoral actions in fact boast about them, a government by the people who chooses to destroy a nations and kill their citizens for power ? That government we as Christians are supposed to obey?

I presume you are speaking of the government of the USA. The government is the product of the voters. Certain voters voted in the evil people running our government. This implies these voters have evil in their hearts as they condone what the government is doing. We all have a voice for our representatives if we do not like what they are doing, and also a voice for our neighbors. It is up to us, first off to vote, then to vote in the people we think will run the government according to how the Bible says or our Constitution, which most people know is founded upon the Bible.

Addendum...The church should be aware of how it will be judged first; in this regard. Much of today's poor decision making (i.e. leniency on criminals; women's rights issues) has been growing due to it's inception in churches today. The root issue of many vices is lack of fathers at home; which in many ways developed with lax views of the marriage covenant allowing for widespread divorce; single parent homes and remarriages. Without the discipline and order as God designed it; things have gradually unraveled in society. These mindsets have largely developed because of worldly doctrines infiltrating what used to be mainline trusted denominations that preached God's Word. Much also; it seems has come from an unbalanced promotion of God's love at the expense of balancing His wrath and disregarding a literal hell; as well as not discussing His judgment on the nations which is just ahead. We don't preach about the Tribulation very much these days; and we have to evaluate our own attitudes as to our comfort level in this world. We need to be careful not to "Americanize" our view of the Gospel; as well as accepting that we are inexorably headed toward One World Government; and much as was in the case of Babylon; we are not to expend needless energies to stop it. We also must demonstrate a good work ethic; as our society has largely gotten used to over reliance on government handouts and lost much wisdom on survival skills.

We must avoid overreacting as we yet are not being executed for our faith in this land. God has given grace to those who for a time were pressured into getting the "V". Again; we should only focus on what is clearly against scripture. In other matters we must demonstrate PATIENCE so we can endure to the end and not lose our reward. Trusting God to meet our earthly needs is key to joy in such a hedonistic culture; and goes against the "Christian music industry" and other megachurch behaviors that characterize the Laodicean era.

Dear Richard,

You have given a reasoned reply to Sheila. some of it I agree with and some of it I do not. You can read my reply to T. Levi below if you wish to know my thinking. As a believer, I know my citizenship is in heaven, but also, as a U.S. citizen, I believe that I am to exercise all of the rights afforded t me in our nation's Constitutions for my welfare and that of my family and neighbors.

I do know that the Word says that we are to live quiet and godly lives among the wicked. But I don't think that that means to be pacificist nor just let evil prevail. I think we are to rise up when necessary and endeavor to resist, speak out, vote, and fight for what we know is best for our nation, as what is best benefits ourselves, our families, our neighbors, our communities, our nation, and the world.

Nice to hear from you again. Not sure what is disagreed upon-I don't have any real problem with your response. I was listening to a program about Reagan's life last night. What was confidential until recently was his personal action to let out a group of Pentacostal believers who were detained in Russia in the 80's. He also personally visited an apartment where Jews were being mistreated; as well as a stopover to discuss with refugees his vision of the future. As to his own confused doctrinal stance; I am aware issues exist. My point is taking a personal approach is helpful; as he did with Gorbachev (even though he still spoke out against evils). You would probably agree that it is the REASON we are standing for our freedoms that is more important than going out and supporting a "humanitarian" concept. It is always secondary; as it was with Paul to the Gospel being preached. Thus; there was a convenient season to rejoice in being beaten in jail and worship/sing to Christ and he was miraculously delivered; and there was the time he used the Roman citizenship as a playing card. Again; in that case he was probably looking at the importance of being free to continue his ministry and perhaps the other person imprisoned with him and his welfare as well. It is much like his talk to the Corinthians about his suffering in his rather sarcastic commentary-it was necessary for their edification and growth to understand his apostolic ministry. It wasn't mentioned to other churches; and again his main concern and what he spent day and night weeping and praying for was for the state of the churches and the doctrines therein. When his incarceration was used as a vehicle to save those on the ship and minister to the Cretians; as well as travel elsewhere under house arrest it benefited the gospel. The church should make all efforts to be a safe haven for single moms; and others in need so government can be trimmed back to original parameters of law and order.

Hello, Richard. It seems that we perhaps have similar points of view here, but coming from differing angles. I was just out of college when Reagan was elected. He set the stage for some real positive steps for democracy. I remember when the Berlin wall came down. What a wonderful event that was for the world, but especially for east and west Germans. I remember when Poland revolted against communism with the Solidarity movement and succeeded in wresting control away from the U.S.S.R. Soon many other eastern bloc countries were able to break away from the U.S.S.R. until finally the U.S.S.R. was broken up and we now have the various countries around the Black and Caspian Sea that are independent along with some along the outer western part of Russia. I remember when interest rates were up to 16% and there were long lines for gas as it was being rationed during the Carter administration. Those were hard times and it took two administrations of Reagan to undo the damage Carter's policies did to the U.S. citizenry. I remember growing up when one income was sufficient for the average family. You could be a butcher, milkman, postal deliverer, etc. and supply what was needed for your family. "Common decency" was a real thing in communities and provided much safety for children growing up. But I realize this wasn't true for all communities. I have witnessed the steady deterioration of the nuclear family and alienation of neighbors in neighborhoods that once were close knit and watchful for ALL that lived there.

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All of these events made me one who was very politically aware of how our country was being governed and to remain vigilant about standing up and speaking up about things that would help, not harm our country.

Paul had a calling to be an evangelist and apostle. He knew full well what he was to do. Some of us have callings to serve in the ministry, others in the military, others in the government and most of are to fulfill our duties as citizens.

Humbly I request, what happened to the separation of Church and State?

Actually the term "separation of church and state" does not exist in the U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights. The first Amendment protect the free exercise of religion for all people in the U.S.. The recent Supreme Court decision concerning the football coach from Bremerton, WA. is a good example of correct viewing of the First Amendment concerning free exercise of religion and the government not infringing nor prohibiting this right to free exercise. This amendment also includes that the government will not establish a specific religion such as is in the U.K. or Sweden. This means that the government cannot make it law that citizens need to adhere to a specific religion and pay the government to support this established religion.

Dear Sheila: A good point is brought up about documents that allow for an overturning of governments if necessary. This gives us some authority at least indirectly permitted by God's Word since it is inherent in the laws of the land as to how the "founding fathers" intended it. First of all; we need to carefully assess not just what politicians are saying but avoid either worshipping those who appear to support Christian values (as many in both parties have vacillated wildly over time in both parties); as well as carefully choosing which battles to fight. What was perceived as the "law of the land" with Roe vs. Wade was in reality a Supreme Court opinion; which was considered by everyone to have the authority to be enforced. Those who have been praying and supporting life surely are to be commended; as this overturning occurred during an obviously hostile administration. In that regard; it has been brought up that "life; liberty and the pursuit of happiness" certainly seems to be more pro-life than not when the Constitution was drafted.

Other issues; however such as gun control need to be carefully assessed. We have a right to bear arms; but we scripturally are not to trust pridefully in anything we own (which also would apply to our financial blessings as a nation as Solomon was warned about multiplying horses; gold and silver for himself). We still should trust in God to be our front and rear guard is such promises as Psalm 91. We need to avoid much misinformation in mainstream media; and in general often need to insist on laws already in effect to be properly enforced (such as those written for criminal prosecution). If we truly love Christ then we are enemies to the world. We shouldn't; however let patriotism; maintaining international superiority; or any man centered mindset to super cede scripture. It should be clear that we are willing to be persecuted because we are fearlessly proclaiming Christ. Also we must pray for our enemies.

Thank you very much.

Desr Sheila. Just think, was Roman rule better in Paul's time? No surely it wasn't. Christians suffered many persecutions during the first three centuaries AD but never revolted, always obeyed the Romans, and the example of their lives made after those 3 centuaries almost the whole of Rome christians. Our lives are often the best testimony of our faith in Jesus Christ. Of course one has to obey God's rules when they are in contrast with gov rules, it is what Peter said to Jews when they arested the spostles because they were preaching the Gospel. So lets do the same.

GBU

Sheila,

I see you found your answer. I'd like to add. Here in the United States of America, we celebrate the Independence of our Nation this week. As Christians; that independence is our strongest defense of Our GOD given rights to worship, sing, praise GOD openly, spread the good news of the Gospel & obey GOD. The core foundation of USA, was driven by believers that were willing to lose everything to make our country free from tyrannical government, for our basic freedoms of Life, freedom to worship, freedom of speech, freedom of press, right to protect our freedom within the right to keep and bear arms. Within the core foundational documents we even have the rights to abolish the form of government when it has a long train of abuses. In every State Constitution & within The US Constitution & Declaration of Independence it is We The People, that are established as the authority. Therefore we have the Rights of the GOD blessed & established Governing Authority. One Nation under GOD, In GOD We Trust, GOD Bless America, all also established Legal phrases locked into our Nation, that I believe has continued GOD's blessing on our nation. Please see the statement of the Church of Philadelphia (noting also the US Mint, that prints every currency "In GOD We Trust", the U.S. Constitution, & The U.S. Declaration of Independence were signed ) says "._.hast not denied my name" Revelation 3:7-8, could this be the Church established through these, in Philadelphia USA, that continues to fight, pray, worship & stand today? That "hast kept my word" is it these foundational documents that very "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength" please read The Declaration of Independence, individual States Constitutions. Never stop seeking GOD's wisdom, direction, & guidance for yourself & Our Nation. For It's with these freedoms we help liberty of Christ around the globe!

Thank you T. Levi, and Happy Independence Day to you. Indeed God has richly blessed the U.S.A. over and over again. Citizens of this blessed nation have more individual rights than any other government in history. We have more freedom in this country than in any other country in history. We should be thankful for God's guidance and providence in the forming and continuance of our nation.

We also should exercise our rights afforded by the Constitution to protect ourselves and other citizens from governmental abuse and lawlessness. Because of this remarkable we should not shrink back from our duty to vote, engage in public and political affairs, and speak out for what we believe is best for our country.

There are those who decry patriotism as being incompatible with the Christian walk. But I disagree. Even Paul appealed to his Roman citizenship when being incarcerated and interrogated. I believe our country is worth preserving and improving. It has been used of God to bless the world in so many ways-even extraordinarily. I do not think we should just be pacificist and just let things happen. We, believers are a "stop gap" to the works of evil in our country and the world. We believers have the freedom to evangelize and speak freely about our Savior, unlike so many other countries. I for one, do not want our country to become Communistic or under Muslim control, since these forms of government persecute and execute those who want to share the gospel. I do not want to see the advent of the One World Government come in my life time. I will use my rights as a citizen to resist this for as long as I am able to do so.

We should not be so defeatist and fatalistic in thinking that it is inevitable and so there is nothing we can do to stop it. We are a restraining power because of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. We should not quench the Spirit even in such things as exercising our rights and working to preserve the truly good aspects of our nation.