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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 196002
Lets keep the debate going dear brothers and sisters.
1 Peter 3:20-21
"20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 - The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Baptism is a big deal to God. Such a big deal, a person was sent in advance of Jesus specifically to baptize people to prepare for Jesus. It was a big deal to Jesus that He was baptized Himself, and invited those around Him to be baptized. It's such a big deal it even says in the Bible to be baptized. It's written in the form of a command. It is a conditional statement. Do this, and this is the result. Whether someone likes it or not salvation is mentioned in the same sentence in Acts 2:38 for example. Also read: Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5, Galatians 3:26-27, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 2:41.
Just as people were resistant to follow Jesus in His day, we have people who read the above verses and dismiss them as important or "unnecessary." Man tries so hard to perform mental gymnastics to avoid doing something God wants us to do. He comes up with all these creative interpretations of cherry picked verses claiming that when it says to be baptized, it doesn't actually mean it, or is symbolic, or no longer applies, or [fill in the blank].
What it comes down to is do you believe the Bible verses above or not? Do want to follow Jesus or not?
Is there a risk of being baptized? No.
Is there a risk of not being baptized? Yes.
How is this not an easy decision?
Bible clearly says to be baptized, but why is someone who wants to follow Jesus so adamant about not doing it? Physically you're wet for a couple minutes, then you dry off. Similar to what most people normally do daily anyway. So, the hesitancy probably isn't because of that. What else would motivate people to try so hard to disobey Jesus then? Embarrassment? Many do it publicly, but you can also do it privately. What else makes people so desperate to disobey Jesus then? Something inside them is resisting. Maybe searching ones heart and motives and praying and study of the scriptures might help reveal ones real motives behind this.
Hello Giannis GBU ....But let me have your attention for just a sec.....The nite he was betrayed he took the cup and said this is
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
Thanks for your reply, but I am too tired to answer back now. It is 10 o'clock at night here and I am too exhausted to have a conversation. I will definitely come back sometime during the weekend.
Hello Giannis GBU ....But let me have your attention for just a sec.....The nite he was betrayed he took the cup and said this is
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
One of the Main Events in the bible. Jesus is baptized and receives the Holy Spirit and it pleases God! If this isn't a learning teachable event for us - nothing is! Jesus provided us with his examples to follow, hence as Christ followers we should be striving to follow Him.
Matthew 3:16
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
Jesus shows us how it is done, and if He does it, and instructs everyone to do it, where do we improve our standing with God - if we ignore His command?
Jesus commands the diciples to baptize believers.
Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
If the apostles would have ignored Jesus command to baptize would this have been good for them? If all of the apostles, including Paul believed that baptism was required, why should we believe any different than they?
Peter tells us that when we repent, and submit to baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So, Jesus/God tells us in so much scripture, that when we believe, repent, and get baptized - we are forgiven of our sins, and we receive the Holy Spirit!
The above scripture is so easy to understand, even a child can understand the need to follow God's instructions regarding this issue.
Hello Bro. Dan let me remind you that Jesus had no sin...But as the sacrifical dove ( thats y the dove descened on him marking him as our sacrficial Dove ) In the time of Moses if a house had a leprosy or a scall or anyone with a leprosy or sin they wd have to fetch 2 turtle doves and the priest wd have to kill one of the doves by running water and sprinkle his blood on the living bird,...Then the living bird was set free in an open field....TURTLE DOVES ARE LOVERS FOR LIFE....Its picture of Christ and the Church which are lovers....Husbands love your wives as Christ LOVED the Church and gave his life for it...But 1 of the doves had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird which is the Church
......Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....We are the Church the living bird...The Jordan was running water where Christ and the Church was washed by John who was of the tribe of levi....Only the tribe of levi cd do this washing /baptism.
.....This is y Jesus had to be baptised,..It was NOT FOR SIN but to fulfill the law of Moses...As all the law had to be fulfilled...In the Book of Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the Church and they refer to each other as having Doves eyes....She tells him he has doves eyes and he tells her she has doves eyes...I think that is y the dove descened on Jesus marking him as our sacrificial Dove that wd have to be be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church Humanity
.....Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....While the King sits at his table my spikenard sends for a sweet smell, in the time of Moses after a house had been cleansed...They had to offer up a sweet smell to the Lord...Here comes Mary with her alabaster box of ointament...The whole house was filled with odor of her sweet ointment...AND ALL THIS WAS DONE IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER...Lots of times i think of this and i beleive this is Y Jesus was baptised so that he cd die for the sins of the world....But he had no sin....
You are correct that Jesus was without blemish/sin. I also agree with you that Jesus didn't have to be baptized, but he did it to fulfill the scriptures. In addition, I will add a few more very important reasons that Jesus was baptized.
- To prove that he was the Messiah! Everyone that witnessed this special event that day, very likely became a strong believer!
- To show the Apostles and the future Church (You, me and all Christians) what He expects from us when he commands us to be baptized. He truly wanted to make sure that we understand, and He performed this as a 'specific example" for us to follow!
After Jesus died on the cross for us, he came back to meet with his Apostles and during this meeting he instructed them below.
Mark 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus tells us above that if we believe and get baptized we will be saved. This bears directly on our Salvation! Reread!
I pray that you will sincerely take this scripture above spoken by Jesus to heart!
Thanks Bro dan, I agree with you completely. I think it is very clear in the Gospel that this is the very first step for a new believer to go to be accepted in the Body of Christ, the congregation of all people saved by God, the universal church, the saints. Baptism in water is a one of the main doctrines/dogmas in Christianity in the vast majority of denominations/churches.since the very beggining.
I think this is an interesting statement Jesus said before he was baptized. Notice he didn't say I by myself will fulfill all righteousness. Matthew 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him". For a true "personal relationship" it takes both parties contributing to the relationship. We need to yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit walking uprightly and not just trust in the righteousness of Christ.
My understanding of the words Jesus said is as follows.
For God's righteousness to be fulfilled, Jesus had to walk under the Law, stay sinless, and then sacrifice Himself as a representative of the human race. God's judgement/ righteousness was fulfilled since He punished Jesus for all the sins men did, do and will do till the very end. God is love, but He is justice as well. This means that He HAS to punish people who sin. But instead of people He punished Jesus. All these are known, I am just reminding them. So now when we sin and ask for Jesus' Blood, God forgives us, and consider us as righteous. That is how God's righteousness was/is fulfilled. Well, for that to be done Jesus had to walk like an ordinary man, get baptized by John, since it was a commandment, and obey the law. If Jesus had to do that, starting His path/ministry with baptism why some of us consider that baptism in water is a choise? Was it a choice for Jesus? No it wasn't. Jesus said that they both have to go along with baptism. Jesus had to be baptized and John had to baptize Him. That is why Jesus said "us" for the fulfillment of God's righteousness. Both Had to do their share. I often see christian life as a ladder. One has to go to step one then to step two and so on. The first steps are new birth and baptism. Now one may jump over some steps but he'll get himself in a trouble, because it is God that planned the ladder/path not us.
Thanks for the reply, I liked your comment about Word of God being the water in new birth in the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus. To my opinion It's right. There is a belief in some christians that that water is the water of baptism, but no it isn't. But this can be another topic for discussion later on.
Tagging onto your comment about the "water" being the Word and not the water. I think that I would add this: Just going into water to be baptized for cleansing of the flesh is not what Christian baptism is about. It is about applying physical water and spiritual water (Jesus' Words-in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) that marks Christian baptism apart from any other form of ritual baptism. It is the pairing of water and Word that brings about the cleansing spoken of in Scripture. The Words of Jesus are powerful and when applied as He commanded, they accomplish the purpose that God has for the action of physical water baptism.
It's OK dear GiGi, don't worry, i didn't get it as an argument, it actually is a topic I always wanted to discuss with all of you and Doug's post was a chance to start with it, but not right now.
Then to 1 Peter 3:21. Again, we see Peter use the phrase 'good conscience', as he did in verse 16. As a 'good conscience' is important to the believer in his confident stand against the forces of evil against him, so also is a 'good conscience' that water baptism provides in his spiritual stand before God & the world. God already knows who belongs to Him (those expressing repentance & faith) - water baptism is immaterial. Water baptism is solely for the benefit of the new convert, for 'conscience-sake'. And obedience? That is the responsibility of the one leading the sinner to Christ ( Romans 10:13-15), to obey the command to follow through with baptizing the convert - not for the baptizee to initiate or obey.
So, I trust that you can see that my understanding on water baptism is simply an event post-saving faith & not contributing to it - an act of identification & clear conscience only. If not, then not only an outward action is needed to secure salvation, there are also many false Christians out there who are yet to be baptized, or physically unable to go into the waters, on their death bed, or neglected by the Church. And we can't make excuses for these poor souls, since 'baptism is (as you believe) necessary for salvation'.
In the case of smd in a death bed some churches do what they call air baptism. They baptize the person in air in absence of water or baptize him by sprinkling water on him. My opinion is that if bapt. is impossible to do God doesn't hold you accountable for that.
I have to stop now its 2:30 in the morning here. I will come back tomorrow with my thoughts on faith/works/salvation.
Brother, just including my reply to both your pages, under this one page.
I find no disagreement with your understanding of Acts 19:1-7. That too is my understanding, that these Ephesian believers were baptized by John, then they (at some point) believed on Christ Jesus, but were never baptized under the Trinitarian Name, nor received the Holy Ghost (an extraordinary, maybe a rare event). I hadn't known how John's baptism was probably conducted - so your description was new & useful to me.
With Jesus' baptism by John: I agree again with you for the most part, of Christ's sinlessness, John's perplexity why Jesus should come to him for baptism, & Christ having to "fulfil all righteousness" by performing it. But you say that Jesus had to be baptized "because it was a commandment from God". I think that should a personal opinion from how one appraises that event & Jesus' Words. My understanding is that 'by fulfilling all righteousness', it was not only a Directive from the Father that the Son be sacrificed for sins, but also of the Son's acceptance & willingness to (fully) fulfil the Father's Plan to go to the Cross & never being side-tracked from His goal. Yes, Jesus had no reason to be baptized, let alone through John's baptism - His baptism was totally distinct from any other; sorrow for sin was not His end, but payment for our sin was - of which this baptism signified before God that He was committed to. Both John & the people would not have known or seen this. As well, I don't see that Jesus' Baptism was in any way a prelude or prompt for believers' baptism, as its meaning & application bore faint resemblance. Jesus': pointed to His Commitment to the Cross; Ours: our identification & commitment to Jesus' Sacrifice & Resurrection.
As far as air baptism, self-baptism, baptism in a bath tub, etc. goes, I believe defeats the purpose of water baptism & its importance - just a ritual to somehow pacify the conscience. Blessings.
Dear Chris, about John's baptism being a commandment of God or not lets read Luke 7::29-30
"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified (why justified?) God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."
The greek text instead of the word "counsel" has the word "will". So it was God's will, a commandment, that Jesus obeyed although there was no need for Him to do. It is a very serious mistake for someone to not follow God's commandments. Matthew 7:21"21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The belief that one when once saved is always saved even if he disobeys God commandments (having the belief that because this is a man's work that don't save) is objected by that as well as many other verses. But that will be answered by me in another post. Have a nice weekend. GBU
Yes brother, I did re-read Luke 7:29,30; & apologies for the delayed reply (I didn't receive an email alert). But what I did read in that passage was that the people, including the publicans, believed John's coming & baptizing work from God. However, the Pharisees & Lawyers rejected it, therefore refused to be baptized. So was it God's Counsel (or, Will) that the application of John's baptism to the people be the same as Jesus' baptism?
As stated earlier, I believe that John's baptism of the penitent was very different to Jesus' baptism by John. The first, was for sinners to visibly indicate their spiritual need & in some way acknowledging that John (i.e. his calling & work) was a prelude/an announcer to another One coming Who would come to usher in the Kingdom & perform another type of baptism ( Matthew 3:1-3,11). Even John was perplexed as to why Jesus would come to him to be baptized since, of all people, Jesus definitely did not fit the reason for his baptism.
Since that part is clear to me (i.e. of the different baptisms of the people & Jesus), one could be better served to discuss what Jesus meant when He said, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness (v15)". Yes, baptism was a command, but was it the same command given for the people & Jesus alike, or was Jesus' need to be baptized prompted by a totally different 'command', motive, & resulting fall-out? I realize that the answers we give to this question can only be from our personal understanding/Spirit's leading, since no verse gives specific detail on it.
And to add another thought: what if some people gathered around John refused, or despised, his baptism, but later on came to realize their sinful condition when seeing the Life of Jesus & His Works & hearing His Words - would they be rejected now because they refused John's baptism? I guess, another moot question.
I just want to say that I appreciate the way you write to me, trying to be polite and careful not to offend me although we are not in agreement sometimes. Unfortunately I am no like that, and I understand that I must correct myself. I often get enthusiastic with a debate and the way I write sounds sometimes rude the least, if not hostile. Sorry if I offended you, it's really nice to have conversations together
Hi Giannis. I do understand & respect your position on water baptism, i.e. unless one believes & is baptized, he is not saved, though I'm in disagreement with it. Just to give a little background on the 1st Peter 3 reference you shared (just my understanding from verses 13 to 22, as I feel there is value in picking up the Apostle's thoughts from these verses).
1 Peter 3:13-17. In this portion, as also in the latter portion, the Apostle uses the word 'conscience' (the same word is used, as also shown in Greek). In vv 13-17, a "good conscience" is enjoyed by the believer when he 'sanctifies' the Lord in his heart (v15): when evil assails him, when he suffers for righteousness sake, & when false accusations find no ground to stand. In other words, a believer has every reason to remain steadfast & having confidence because the Lord is with him but God is against all perpetrators of evil. Then verse 17 is the connecting verse to Jesus' sufferings, where He too suffered when no evil was found in Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22. And through Christ's Death, both Noah & his family & ourselves can find forgiveness by God & be restored. As Noah was saved by the water, so does the act of water baptism have salvific merit. Noah was already a righteous man before the Deluge - the flood upheld him so that God's purposes for him, his family & the Earth would be fulfilled. When a sinner comes to Christ for salvation, his only basis for coming & acceptance, is Faith (given as a gracious Act of God: Ephesians 2:8.9), & nothing else. No water baptism, no Church-going, not even a little Bible knowledge, can be a part of Faith to secure salvation. Or else, salvation is no longer just of Faith but of something extra, negating the meaning & essence of Faith. Once a sinner expresses believing faith in Christ's Sacrifice to save him, salvation is given - nothing more can be added to it. But water baptism should be, & was always the case in NT times, as the immediate response to that faith.
Noah believed in God; walked uprightly before him, and found grace in his sight; he obeyed him in building the ark, and God made it the means of his salvation from the waters. Baptism implies a consecration and dedication of the soul and body to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He who is faithful to his baptismal covenant, taking God through Christ, by the eternal Spirit, for his portion, is saved here from his sins; and through the resurrection of Christ from the dead, has the well-grounded hope of eternal glory. This is all plain; but was it the deluge, itself, or the ark, or the being saved by that ark from the deluge, that was the antitype of which St. Peter speaks? Noah and his family were saved by water; it was the instrument of their being saved through the good providence of God. So the water of baptism, typifying the regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit, is the means of salvation to all those who receive this Holy Spirit in its quickening, cleansing efficacy. Now as the waters of the flood could not have saved Noah and his family, had they not made use of the ark; so the water of baptism saves no man, but as it is the means of his getting his heart purified by the Holy Spirit, and typifying to him that purification. The ark was not immersed in the water; had it been so they must all have perished; but it was borne up on the water, and sprinkled with the rain that fell from heaven. This text, as far as I can see, says nothing in behalf of immersion in baptism; but is rather, from the circumstance mentioned above, in favor of sprinkling. In either case, it is not the sprinkling, washing, or cleansing the body, that can be of any avail to the salvation of the soul, but the answer of a good conscience towards God - the internal evidence and external proof that the soul is purified in the laver of regeneration,and the person enabled to walk in newness of life. We are therefore cautioned here, not to rest in the letter, but to look for the subtance.
The word baptism originates from the greek Baptisma. It means immersion, submersion etc. So since the early Christians used this term, we must conclude that in baptism the person to be baptized must be fully immersed in the water. Apart from the Bible there are also writings of early christians that confirm that. In the same manner when we are baptised in the HS, we mean that we are submerged in the Spirit and so we get filled with Him. Like one submerges a glass of water in a tank of water and fill it with water.
My beliefs about baptism don't seem to differ from yours if I understood well. But let me explain myself and be clear about it. When we say that baptism in water is essential for salvation we don't mean that the water or the function of baptism have some magical properties that save people, nor the actual work/act done by people saves. It is the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us. But still it is a command from God required to be done by people to "complete/formally accept (or use any other word you think is appropriate)" the salvation offered to them. It is very evident in the Gospel that it is a requirement, a condition, the first step for a new believer.
Baptism in water is a "milestone" in a believer's life. It symbolises the complete death of the old, sinful person and the resurrection of a new person ready to walk the path the Word of God shows to him. And the end (if one follows till the end) is eternal life.
Hiya Giannis Gbu my Bro....Giannis all the water in the world cd not make us clean or change our Adamic Nature...The only reason Jesus was water baptised was to fulfill the Mosic law...HE and all the disciples had to be washed/baptised by running water,..The Jordan was running water and John was of the tribe of Levi..According to the law of Moses, 2 turtles had to be washed by running water and 1 of the doves had to killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird...The Church...Whom the son sets free is free in deed...Thats y the dove descened on Jesus in the Spirt of the H.G...The H.G. was trying to show the ppl that this man is their sacrificial Dove that had to be washed and killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church....Jesus cd not skip not one lil step in the Mosic law till all was fulfilled
....Jesus knew that all of his disciples had been water baptised but he WARNS them if i wash thee NOT you will have NO PART with ME...impling a greater baptism/washing was on the way which was hearing his Words that good seed that will initiate a Birth of Christ in them...That baptism of Promise...the H.G...An internal baptism of the hearts...True Salvation/FAITH can only come by HEARING HIS VOICE that good seed that will initiate birth of Christ in us...Real faith is a spritual pregnancy that can only come by hearing his Words that good seed as faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen impling a Spritual Child is formed in us which is the H.G. that Child of PROMISE...
....Thats y he says you are made CLEAN by the Words i have spoken unto you that good seed ...He neva said you are made SPRITUALLY clean by water baptism...It was always his blood that he wanted us to drink...As Jesus was the WORD made flesh and Blood...THUS WE DRINK HIS BLOOD WHEN WE HEAR HIS WORDS....Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed th WORD... his Words are those seeds...John said behold the lamb of God...not water baptism...Hearing his WORDS
As I have already said bapt. in water is something different from bapt. in Spirit. Bapt. in Spirit doesn't substitute bapt. in water. They serve different purposes. Baptism in Spirit is for sanctification, for receiving spiritual gifts, guide the church, pray for us in an unknown manner and for many other things as well. Once Jesus ascended to heaven, His is the one in command now in the church and when rapture occurs He will take away the church and hand it to Jesus to takes us all with Him to the Heavens.
Baptism in water is a commandment. Not like any other commandment. This particular commandment is closely associated with salvation. That is why it is written that the one who believes and is baptized will be saved. I think it can be no more clear than that. It is very evident in the Book of Acts that the very very first thing the Apostles did when people believed in Christ was to ask them or even order them to be baptized in water. Why if it wasn't necessary? Jesus condemned Pharisees for not be willing to be baptized John's baptism saying that they didn't justify God by doing it, that they rejected the will of God for them. Didn't justify God, reject the will of God? How very serious this is. The same way if we are not willing for any reason to be baptized the christian baptism is literally rejecting the will of God for us now.
Hey hiya doing Giannis....Nice to hear from you....But Giannis Jesus neva commands water baptism....Jesus knew that they had all been water baptised...But he warns them if I wash thee not you will have no part with with me...Which speaks volumes of a greater baptism of the hearts an internal baptism...which resulted from his blood the Cross...All the water in the world cd not compare to 1 drop of Jesus blood for the remission of sins....The foot washing was prophetic of a heart washing by the blood of the lamb....As Jesus said its the things that come from the heart of a man that defiles him...Not his feet, Not our personal hygiene...Nothin plzs God but a new CREATURE....Which is the H.G.
.....Giannis what Jesus did at Calvary was a New Covenant in his blood....Water baptism was part of the old covenant an external washing....But this New Covenant in his blood is an Internal washing....Remember what Jesus said this is the New Covenant in my blood drink ye all of it....God Almighty was making a new covenant at Calvary with the blood of Jesus...John the bap. gave us water baptism...But John says behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world... Something water baptism neva cd do....All the water in the world cd not redemn mankind back to God....Even in the O.T. without the shedding of Blood there was no remission of sins....When ya tell folks that they need water baptism,...You are in essence saying his blood of this New Covenant was not sufficient, you need water baptism to make it complete...When Jesus said it was finished at the CROSS....Nothin can be added to it...Absolutely Nothin without making his blood of none effect...As Bro. Paul tells us in 1 st Cor. 17 : 25 ..Thats y the lord was so upset with Peter commanding water baptism...3 times the lord rebuked peter with that sheet with all the unclean animals which was the Church that was made clean by the Blood...What i have made CLEAN do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism....GB
Hi Alex. I will just expand a bit what Bro Dan said. Yes salvation is offered to people through the sacrifice of His only begoten Son, Jesus Christ, God made a new Covenatant in Jesus' Blood. But salvation is not unconditional, There are conditions to be satisfied by people to receive it. Verse Mark 16:16 gives us the conditions required by God to give His grace "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Notice that it does't say just "believe" but "believe and be baptised". Its the same when Peter said to people gathered on Pentecost that they must repent and be baptised for the "remission of sins". Not just repent but repent and be baptised. So if God has set up those conditions, shouldn't we fulfill them? GBU
You stated to Bro Giannis: "But Giannis Jesus neva commands water baptism"
I don't know what bible you are reading.it can't be the KJV! Water baptism is required!
Jesus specifically states right here in scripture that we MUST be Water Baptized!
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus is telling us point blank: If we want to receive Salvation we must Believe and be Baptized!
Jesus also tells us below how we must be born of water and the Holy Spirit to enter into Heaven.
John 3:5
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Apostle Peter tells us how we will receive "The Holy Spirit
Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
We don't receive the Holy Spirit by just believing.we MUST believe and be Baptized. Period!
All of the above scripture ties everything together, and confirms what is required by Jesus/God to receive the Holy Spirt and ultimately our Salvation.
In order to believe the way that you do - you have to ignore all of this scripture!
Bro. Dan nice to hear from you GBU...But not all baptism is water baptism...John himself said I baptise you with water but there is one standing among you that you know not that shall baptise you with the H.G. and fire.... John 1 : 26...kjv ...So not all baptism is water baptism....And also in Matthew 19 : 28kjv...Jesus said go ye into all the world baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and H.G..The HOLY GHOST....Which is H.G. BAPTISM
.....And in Acts 11:35 Peter said Then remembered I the Words of our lord..John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire ...So Bro. Dan lots of these baptisms are H.G. baptism not water baptism....Ya gotta keep in mind that the CROSS was a new covenant in his blood....Much more precious then water baptism...
......John the bap...who gave us water baptism was preaching Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...Not water baptism...Jesus had no sin whatsoever but to fulfill the law he had to be water baptised...Thats y the Dove descended on Jesus....According to the law of Moses 2 turtle doves had to be washed by running water....And 1 of the turtles doves had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird which is the Church....Tis was the law of moses for Sin or leprosy...Turtles doves are lovers for life which is symbolic of Christ and the Church....Husbands love you wives as Christ loved the Church and gave his life for it...ok lemme go
Hello Chris, it's always nice to talk to you. What you have written in your post seems to be right. But let me explain my thoughts.
God offers salvation, man has to accept it. We often talk about works that do not bring salvation to people. But we often call works things that are not works. Is believing in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice a work or not? According to the definition that I have read in posts so far, yes it is since it is something that a man does. So also obeying God's commandments are works of men? That do not save? But that is playing with words, isn't it? In our relationship with God a part is always done by God and a part is always done by man
Noe was selected by God to be saved. God offered him and his family salvation. But He also showed them the way to be saved. They had to build a ship. To do a work. If Noe didn't
do that was he going to be saved? The answer is no he wasn't. So back now to NT when God says that the one who believes and (then)is baptised will be saved, the one who doesn't believe (and subsequently is not baptised) will not be saved, what do we understand? Do we understand that that is an obligation for salvation or a choice? I believe the former. As I replied to brother Doug since John and Jesus had to do their share in Jesus' baptism, then it means that it was an obligation so that God's righteousness was fulfilled. So isn't it the same with us, since the same commandment is written for us as well? If Jesus wasn't willing to be baptized would His work for man's salvation proceed? No.
So whether we consider baptism as a means of salvation or just a commandment that we must obey it doesn't really matter, it still remains a requirement for salvation. Like Noe it is the way shown to us to live and not die, the spiritual death.
Now if somebody is in no position to obey God like the thief on the cross next to Jesus who couldn't be baptized, of course God doesn't held him accountable for that.
Much could be written about the differences in John the Baptist's baptism, Jesus' Baptism, & believers' baptism - each one different & specific in meaning & application. Though to your last point: "if someone is in no position to be baptized - God does not hold him accountable". I believe, according to your belief on this matter, that each one is very much accountable to God, for there has to be a water baptism to secure salvation. Why should God make exceptions - if salvation can only come by faith & water baptism, then the absence of even one of those aspects, negates salvation. If a man is breathing his last breaths on a hospital bed & responds in faith to the Spirit's appeal to his heart, he must straightway be baptized, for if he slips into eternity without it, he cannot be saved.
Rather, the fact of believing & being baptized must go hand-in-hand when a sinner converts. This was always done in this way in the NT & always instigated by the minister of the Lord. If a believer is not baptized today, one must ask, 'why did the minister fail in his duty?' The command was given to the disciples to 'go, teach, baptize', not, 'you new believers, hunt around for someone to baptize you': that's absurd & brings the whole meaning of water baptism into question & disrepute.
Unfortunately, many today see no value in being water baptized because the Church has strayed so far away from its normal & proper practise - what they read in the Bible & what's being practised by the Church do not align at all. Baptism becomes an optional extra, whenever the believer is ready to do it. And it was never an option in the Book of Acts - you believed, you were baptized forthwith - because that was the special significance of baptism. I'll stop here & again thanks & GBU brother.
I will start with Paul meeting those disciples in Ephesus. He asked them if they were baptized in the Spirit after they were baptized in water (should they?). They answered that they never heard of the HS. He asks them in what name were they baptized (how come they never heard of the HS since in baptism we are baptised in the name of F and S and the HS, this being another evidence that believers were not baptised just in the name of Jesus). They said they were bapt. John's baptism. And he says Acts 19:4 "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance ..." So John's bapt. was a bapt. of repentance. If you make a search about that you will find out that John's bapt. was done as follows. The person to be bapt. went into the river until his waist was submerged, then he stayed like that and started confessing his sins and when he finished confessing he dived in the water and rised. That was the ritual.
There is a detail in Jesus' bapt. that if one is not aware will not notice.
Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:..." Jesus went up straight away. He had nothing to confess, no sin at all. He went into the river and immediately dived and came up.
That is why John tried to prevent Him from being baptized. John knew that Jesus had no sins, there wasn't a reason for Him to be baptized. It was useless for Him. But what did Jesus said " they had to fulfill all righteousness. But why, He had no sin. No reason to be baptized. Because it was a commandment from God and He had to obey although that didn't have any usefulness for Him. Now if Jesus obeyed, shouldn't we? Notice please that Jesus started His ministry with baptism. All other things followed that. But we have gone through these before. You ask many questions like if smd is in death bed and has no time to be baptized. I don't have the right answer to that but my ignorance doesn't cancel the word of God.
Hi again brother Giannis & thank you for your reply. I will restrict myself to the main points.
In your initial post, you shared the Scripture, 1 Peter 3:20,21, & I focussed on it, bringing up the matter of water baptism being an act of having a good (or, pure) conscience before God. That is, water baptism is undertaken not for God's benefit, but for man's: that man visibly partakes in identification with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for him. In so doing, he has not only done what was required by the Lord but also his 'conscience' remains pure & established in his desire to follow his Lord. I was hoping to discuss further on that Scripture, but I see that no one else has pursued it.
Re: Salvation & Works. When I reflect on this, 'works' is anything that has to be added onto faith to make that faith or salvation workable. So, you might have one who wants to make his faith sure by meticulously adhering to acts of kindness, of helping the poor, spending more time in Church & the Word, & so on. Nothing wrong with those acts, but very wrong if they are done to supplement faith, hoping to guarantee God's Acceptance. So, is believing in the Work of the Cross & in Jesus, even responding in love & thankfulness, a work? I believe not. They are heart/spirit responses to acts of mercy & love - those responses do not contribute to the saving Work of Jesus, rather a response to it. Then is saving faith a work? No - it is a Gift of God to effect salvation's work in a sinner. Is obeying the commandments a work? Under OT economy, yes, for by obedience to them, the Jew endeavours to please God & gain His Favour. Under NT economy, if obedience to the commandments is mixed with faith to secure salvation, then that salvation is spurious, not based solely on faith. Likewise, any act added to faith, even water baptism, cannot secure salvation.
1 Peter 3:20-21
"20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 - The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Any comment on the above verse, please?
Just as people were resistant to follow Jesus in His day, we have people who read the above verses and dismiss them as important or "unnecessary." Man tries so hard to perform mental gymnastics to avoid doing something God wants us to do. He comes up with all these creative interpretations of cherry picked verses claiming that when it says to be baptized, it doesn't actually mean it, or is symbolic, or no longer applies, or [fill in the blank].
What it comes down to is do you believe the Bible verses above or not? Do want to follow Jesus or not?
Is there a risk of being baptized? No.
Is there a risk of not being baptized? Yes.
How is this not an easy decision?
Bible clearly says to be baptized, but why is someone who wants to follow Jesus so adamant about not doing it? Physically you're wet for a couple minutes, then you dry off. Similar to what most people normally do daily anyway. So, the hesitancy probably isn't because of that. What else would motivate people to try so hard to disobey Jesus then? Embarrassment? Many do it publicly, but you can also do it privately. What else makes people so desperate to disobey Jesus then? Something inside them is resisting. Maybe searching ones heart and motives and praying and study of the scriptures might help reveal ones real motives behind this.
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
Thanks for your reply, but I am too tired to answer back now. It is 10 o'clock at night here and I am too exhausted to have a conversation. I will definitely come back sometime during the weekend.
God Bless You.
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
One of the Main Events in the bible. Jesus is baptized and receives the Holy Spirit and it pleases God! If this isn't a learning teachable event for us - nothing is! Jesus provided us with his examples to follow, hence as Christ followers we should be striving to follow Him.
Matthew 3:16
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
Jesus shows us how it is done, and if He does it, and instructs everyone to do it, where do we improve our standing with God - if we ignore His command?
Jesus commands the diciples to baptize believers.
Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
If the apostles would have ignored Jesus command to baptize would this have been good for them? If all of the apostles, including Paul believed that baptism was required, why should we believe any different than they?
Peter tells us that when we repent, and submit to baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So, Jesus/God tells us in so much scripture, that when we believe, repent, and get baptized - we are forgiven of our sins, and we receive the Holy Spirit!
The above scripture is so easy to understand, even a child can understand the need to follow God's instructions regarding this issue.
GBU
......Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....We are the Church the living bird...The Jordan was running water where Christ and the Church was washed by John who was of the tribe of levi....Only the tribe of levi cd do this washing /baptism.
.....This is y Jesus had to be baptised,..It was NOT FOR SIN but to fulfill the law of Moses...As all the law had to be fulfilled...In the Book of Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the Church and they refer to each other as having Doves eyes....She tells him he has doves eyes and he tells her she has doves eyes...I think that is y the dove descened on Jesus marking him as our sacrificial Dove that wd have to be be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church Humanity
.....Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....While the King sits at his table my spikenard sends for a sweet smell, in the time of Moses after a house had been cleansed...They had to offer up a sweet smell to the Lord...Here comes Mary with her alabaster box of ointament...The whole house was filled with odor of her sweet ointment...AND ALL THIS WAS DONE IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER...Lots of times i think of this and i beleive this is Y Jesus was baptised so that he cd die for the sins of the world....But he had no sin....
Thanks so much for your reply.
You are correct that Jesus was without blemish/sin. I also agree with you that Jesus didn't have to be baptized, but he did it to fulfill the scriptures. In addition, I will add a few more very important reasons that Jesus was baptized.
- To prove that he was the Messiah! Everyone that witnessed this special event that day, very likely became a strong believer!
- To show the Apostles and the future Church (You, me and all Christians) what He expects from us when he commands us to be baptized. He truly wanted to make sure that we understand, and He performed this as a 'specific example" for us to follow!
After Jesus died on the cross for us, he came back to meet with his Apostles and during this meeting he instructed them below.
Mark 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus tells us above that if we believe and get baptized we will be saved. This bears directly on our Salvation! Reread!
I pray that you will sincerely take this scripture above spoken by Jesus to heart!
GBU brother
My understanding of the words Jesus said is as follows.
For God's righteousness to be fulfilled, Jesus had to walk under the Law, stay sinless, and then sacrifice Himself as a representative of the human race. God's judgement/ righteousness was fulfilled since He punished Jesus for all the sins men did, do and will do till the very end. God is love, but He is justice as well. This means that He HAS to punish people who sin. But instead of people He punished Jesus. All these are known, I am just reminding them. So now when we sin and ask for Jesus' Blood, God forgives us, and consider us as righteous. That is how God's righteousness was/is fulfilled. Well, for that to be done Jesus had to walk like an ordinary man, get baptized by John, since it was a commandment, and obey the law. If Jesus had to do that, starting His path/ministry with baptism why some of us consider that baptism in water is a choise? Was it a choice for Jesus? No it wasn't. Jesus said that they both have to go along with baptism. Jesus had to be baptized and John had to baptize Him. That is why Jesus said "us" for the fulfillment of God's righteousness. Both Had to do their share. I often see christian life as a ladder. One has to go to step one then to step two and so on. The first steps are new birth and baptism. Now one may jump over some steps but he'll get himself in a trouble, because it is God that planned the ladder/path not us.
Thanks for the reply, I liked your comment about Word of God being the water in new birth in the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus. To my opinion It's right. There is a belief in some christians that that water is the water of baptism, but no it isn't. But this can be another topic for discussion later on.
GBU
Tagging onto your comment about the "water" being the Word and not the water. I think that I would add this: Just going into water to be baptized for cleansing of the flesh is not what Christian baptism is about. It is about applying physical water and spiritual water (Jesus' Words-in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) that marks Christian baptism apart from any other form of ritual baptism. It is the pairing of water and Word that brings about the cleansing spoken of in Scripture. The Words of Jesus are powerful and when applied as He commanded, they accomplish the purpose that God has for the action of physical water baptism.
This is a good topic we can all talk about and share our thoughts. But lets finish first some other arguments before getting into a new one.
Perhaps during the weekend, if possible.
GBU
Wasn't trying to be argumentative or begin a new one. Just sharing what your post prompted me to post. Have a good afternoon.
GBU
Then to 1 Peter 3:21. Again, we see Peter use the phrase 'good conscience', as he did in verse 16. As a 'good conscience' is important to the believer in his confident stand against the forces of evil against him, so also is a 'good conscience' that water baptism provides in his spiritual stand before God & the world. God already knows who belongs to Him (those expressing repentance & faith) - water baptism is immaterial. Water baptism is solely for the benefit of the new convert, for 'conscience-sake'. And obedience? That is the responsibility of the one leading the sinner to Christ ( Romans 10:13-15), to obey the command to follow through with baptizing the convert - not for the baptizee to initiate or obey.
So, I trust that you can see that my understanding on water baptism is simply an event post-saving faith & not contributing to it - an act of identification & clear conscience only. If not, then not only an outward action is needed to secure salvation, there are also many false Christians out there who are yet to be baptized, or physically unable to go into the waters, on their death bed, or neglected by the Church. And we can't make excuses for these poor souls, since 'baptism is (as you believe) necessary for salvation'.
In the case of smd in a death bed some churches do what they call air baptism. They baptize the person in air in absence of water or baptize him by sprinkling water on him. My opinion is that if bapt. is impossible to do God doesn't hold you accountable for that.
I have to stop now its 2:30 in the morning here. I will come back tomorrow with my thoughts on faith/works/salvation.
GBU
I find no disagreement with your understanding of Acts 19:1-7. That too is my understanding, that these Ephesian believers were baptized by John, then they (at some point) believed on Christ Jesus, but were never baptized under the Trinitarian Name, nor received the Holy Ghost (an extraordinary, maybe a rare event). I hadn't known how John's baptism was probably conducted - so your description was new & useful to me.
With Jesus' baptism by John: I agree again with you for the most part, of Christ's sinlessness, John's perplexity why Jesus should come to him for baptism, & Christ having to "fulfil all righteousness" by performing it. But you say that Jesus had to be baptized "because it was a commandment from God". I think that should a personal opinion from how one appraises that event & Jesus' Words. My understanding is that 'by fulfilling all righteousness', it was not only a Directive from the Father that the Son be sacrificed for sins, but also of the Son's acceptance & willingness to (fully) fulfil the Father's Plan to go to the Cross & never being side-tracked from His goal. Yes, Jesus had no reason to be baptized, let alone through John's baptism - His baptism was totally distinct from any other; sorrow for sin was not His end, but payment for our sin was - of which this baptism signified before God that He was committed to. Both John & the people would not have known or seen this. As well, I don't see that Jesus' Baptism was in any way a prelude or prompt for believers' baptism, as its meaning & application bore faint resemblance. Jesus': pointed to His Commitment to the Cross; Ours: our identification & commitment to Jesus' Sacrifice & Resurrection.
As far as air baptism, self-baptism, baptism in a bath tub, etc. goes, I believe defeats the purpose of water baptism & its importance - just a ritual to somehow pacify the conscience. Blessings.
"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified (why justified?) God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."
The greek text instead of the word "counsel" has the word "will". So it was God's will, a commandment, that Jesus obeyed although there was no need for Him to do. It is a very serious mistake for someone to not follow God's commandments. Matthew 7:21"21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The belief that one when once saved is always saved even if he disobeys God commandments (having the belief that because this is a man's work that don't save) is objected by that as well as many other verses. But that will be answered by me in another post. Have a nice weekend. GBU
As stated earlier, I believe that John's baptism of the penitent was very different to Jesus' baptism by John. The first, was for sinners to visibly indicate their spiritual need & in some way acknowledging that John (i.e. his calling & work) was a prelude/an announcer to another One coming Who would come to usher in the Kingdom & perform another type of baptism ( Matthew 3:1-3,11). Even John was perplexed as to why Jesus would come to him to be baptized since, of all people, Jesus definitely did not fit the reason for his baptism.
Since that part is clear to me (i.e. of the different baptisms of the people & Jesus), one could be better served to discuss what Jesus meant when He said, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness (v15)". Yes, baptism was a command, but was it the same command given for the people & Jesus alike, or was Jesus' need to be baptized prompted by a totally different 'command', motive, & resulting fall-out? I realize that the answers we give to this question can only be from our personal understanding/Spirit's leading, since no verse gives specific detail on it.
And to add another thought: what if some people gathered around John refused, or despised, his baptism, but later on came to realize their sinful condition when seeing the Life of Jesus & His Works & hearing His Words - would they be rejected now because they refused John's baptism? I guess, another moot question.
I just want to say that I appreciate the way you write to me, trying to be polite and careful not to offend me although we are not in agreement sometimes. Unfortunately I am no like that, and I understand that I must correct myself. I often get enthusiastic with a debate and the way I write sounds sometimes rude the least, if not hostile. Sorry if I offended you, it's really nice to have conversations together
GBU
Hi Giannis. I do understand & respect your position on water baptism, i.e. unless one believes & is baptized, he is not saved, though I'm in disagreement with it. Just to give a little background on the 1st Peter 3 reference you shared (just my understanding from verses 13 to 22, as I feel there is value in picking up the Apostle's thoughts from these verses).
1 Peter 3:13-17. In this portion, as also in the latter portion, the Apostle uses the word 'conscience' (the same word is used, as also shown in Greek). In vv 13-17, a "good conscience" is enjoyed by the believer when he 'sanctifies' the Lord in his heart (v15): when evil assails him, when he suffers for righteousness sake, & when false accusations find no ground to stand. In other words, a believer has every reason to remain steadfast & having confidence because the Lord is with him but God is against all perpetrators of evil. Then verse 17 is the connecting verse to Jesus' sufferings, where He too suffered when no evil was found in Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22. And through Christ's Death, both Noah & his family & ourselves can find forgiveness by God & be restored. As Noah was saved by the water, so does the act of water baptism have salvific merit. Noah was already a righteous man before the Deluge - the flood upheld him so that God's purposes for him, his family & the Earth would be fulfilled. When a sinner comes to Christ for salvation, his only basis for coming & acceptance, is Faith (given as a gracious Act of God: Ephesians 2:8.9), & nothing else. No water baptism, no Church-going, not even a little Bible knowledge, can be a part of Faith to secure salvation. Or else, salvation is no longer just of Faith but of something extra, negating the meaning & essence of Faith. Once a sinner expresses believing faith in Christ's Sacrifice to save him, salvation is given - nothing more can be added to it. But water baptism should be, & was always the case in NT times, as the immediate response to that faith.
The word baptism originates from the greek Baptisma. It means immersion, submersion etc. So since the early Christians used this term, we must conclude that in baptism the person to be baptized must be fully immersed in the water. Apart from the Bible there are also writings of early christians that confirm that. In the same manner when we are baptised in the HS, we mean that we are submerged in the Spirit and so we get filled with Him. Like one submerges a glass of water in a tank of water and fill it with water.
My beliefs about baptism don't seem to differ from yours if I understood well. But let me explain myself and be clear about it. When we say that baptism in water is essential for salvation we don't mean that the water or the function of baptism have some magical properties that save people, nor the actual work/act done by people saves. It is the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us. But still it is a command from God required to be done by people to "complete/formally accept (or use any other word you think is appropriate)" the salvation offered to them. It is very evident in the Gospel that it is a requirement, a condition, the first step for a new believer.
Baptism in water is a "milestone" in a believer's life. It symbolises the complete death of the old, sinful person and the resurrection of a new person ready to walk the path the Word of God shows to him. And the end (if one follows till the end) is eternal life.
GBU
....Jesus knew that all of his disciples had been water baptised but he WARNS them if i wash thee NOT you will have NO PART with ME...impling a greater baptism/washing was on the way which was hearing his Words that good seed that will initiate a Birth of Christ in them...That baptism of Promise...the H.G...An internal baptism of the hearts...True Salvation/FAITH can only come by HEARING HIS VOICE that good seed that will initiate birth of Christ in us...Real faith is a spritual pregnancy that can only come by hearing his Words that good seed as faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen impling a Spritual Child is formed in us which is the H.G. that Child of PROMISE...
....Thats y he says you are made CLEAN by the Words i have spoken unto you that good seed ...He neva said you are made SPRITUALLY clean by water baptism...It was always his blood that he wanted us to drink...As Jesus was the WORD made flesh and Blood...THUS WE DRINK HIS BLOOD WHEN WE HEAR HIS WORDS....Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed th WORD... his Words are those seeds...John said behold the lamb of God...not water baptism...Hearing his WORDS
As I have already said bapt. in water is something different from bapt. in Spirit. Bapt. in Spirit doesn't substitute bapt. in water. They serve different purposes. Baptism in Spirit is for sanctification, for receiving spiritual gifts, guide the church, pray for us in an unknown manner and for many other things as well. Once Jesus ascended to heaven, His is the one in command now in the church and when rapture occurs He will take away the church and hand it to Jesus to takes us all with Him to the Heavens.
Baptism in water is a commandment. Not like any other commandment. This particular commandment is closely associated with salvation. That is why it is written that the one who believes and is baptized will be saved. I think it can be no more clear than that. It is very evident in the Book of Acts that the very very first thing the Apostles did when people believed in Christ was to ask them or even order them to be baptized in water. Why if it wasn't necessary? Jesus condemned Pharisees for not be willing to be baptized John's baptism saying that they didn't justify God by doing it, that they rejected the will of God for them. Didn't justify God, reject the will of God? How very serious this is. The same way if we are not willing for any reason to be baptized the christian baptism is literally rejecting the will of God for us now.
Thanks for your replies.
GBU
.....Giannis what Jesus did at Calvary was a New Covenant in his blood....Water baptism was part of the old covenant an external washing....But this New Covenant in his blood is an Internal washing....Remember what Jesus said this is the New Covenant in my blood drink ye all of it....God Almighty was making a new covenant at Calvary with the blood of Jesus...John the bap. gave us water baptism...But John says behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world... Something water baptism neva cd do....All the water in the world cd not redemn mankind back to God....Even in the O.T. without the shedding of Blood there was no remission of sins....When ya tell folks that they need water baptism,...You are in essence saying his blood of this New Covenant was not sufficient, you need water baptism to make it complete...When Jesus said it was finished at the CROSS....Nothin can be added to it...Absolutely Nothin without making his blood of none effect...As Bro. Paul tells us in 1 st Cor. 17 : 25 ..Thats y the lord was so upset with Peter commanding water baptism...3 times the lord rebuked peter with that sheet with all the unclean animals which was the Church that was made clean by the Blood...What i have made CLEAN do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism....GB
You stated to Bro Giannis: "But Giannis Jesus neva commands water baptism"
I don't know what bible you are reading.it can't be the KJV! Water baptism is required!
Jesus specifically states right here in scripture that we MUST be Water Baptized!
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jesus is telling us point blank: If we want to receive Salvation we must Believe and be Baptized!
Jesus also tells us below how we must be born of water and the Holy Spirit to enter into Heaven.
John 3:5
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Apostle Peter tells us how we will receive "The Holy Spirit
Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
We don't receive the Holy Spirit by just believing.we MUST believe and be Baptized. Period!
All of the above scripture ties everything together, and confirms what is required by Jesus/God to receive the Holy Spirt and ultimately our Salvation.
In order to believe the way that you do - you have to ignore all of this scripture!
GB you
.....And in Acts 11:35 Peter said Then remembered I the Words of our lord..John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire ...So Bro. Dan lots of these baptisms are H.G. baptism not water baptism....Ya gotta keep in mind that the CROSS was a new covenant in his blood....Much more precious then water baptism...
......John the bap...who gave us water baptism was preaching Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...Not water baptism...Jesus had no sin whatsoever but to fulfill the law he had to be water baptised...Thats y the Dove descended on Jesus....According to the law of Moses 2 turtle doves had to be washed by running water....And 1 of the turtles doves had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird which is the Church....Tis was the law of moses for Sin or leprosy...Turtles doves are lovers for life which is symbolic of Christ and the Church....Husbands love you wives as Christ loved the Church and gave his life for it...ok lemme go
God offers salvation, man has to accept it. We often talk about works that do not bring salvation to people. But we often call works things that are not works. Is believing in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice a work or not? According to the definition that I have read in posts so far, yes it is since it is something that a man does. So also obeying God's commandments are works of men? That do not save? But that is playing with words, isn't it? In our relationship with God a part is always done by God and a part is always done by man
Noe was selected by God to be saved. God offered him and his family salvation. But He also showed them the way to be saved. They had to build a ship. To do a work. If Noe didn't
do that was he going to be saved? The answer is no he wasn't. So back now to NT when God says that the one who believes and (then)is baptised will be saved, the one who doesn't believe (and subsequently is not baptised) will not be saved, what do we understand? Do we understand that that is an obligation for salvation or a choice? I believe the former. As I replied to brother Doug since John and Jesus had to do their share in Jesus' baptism, then it means that it was an obligation so that God's righteousness was fulfilled. So isn't it the same with us, since the same commandment is written for us as well? If Jesus wasn't willing to be baptized would His work for man's salvation proceed? No.
So whether we consider baptism as a means of salvation or just a commandment that we must obey it doesn't really matter, it still remains a requirement for salvation. Like Noe it is the way shown to us to live and not die, the spiritual death.
Now if somebody is in no position to obey God like the thief on the cross next to Jesus who couldn't be baptized, of course God doesn't held him accountable for that.
Thanks for your reply Chris GBU
Much could be written about the differences in John the Baptist's baptism, Jesus' Baptism, & believers' baptism - each one different & specific in meaning & application. Though to your last point: "if someone is in no position to be baptized - God does not hold him accountable". I believe, according to your belief on this matter, that each one is very much accountable to God, for there has to be a water baptism to secure salvation. Why should God make exceptions - if salvation can only come by faith & water baptism, then the absence of even one of those aspects, negates salvation. If a man is breathing his last breaths on a hospital bed & responds in faith to the Spirit's appeal to his heart, he must straightway be baptized, for if he slips into eternity without it, he cannot be saved.
Rather, the fact of believing & being baptized must go hand-in-hand when a sinner converts. This was always done in this way in the NT & always instigated by the minister of the Lord. If a believer is not baptized today, one must ask, 'why did the minister fail in his duty?' The command was given to the disciples to 'go, teach, baptize', not, 'you new believers, hunt around for someone to baptize you': that's absurd & brings the whole meaning of water baptism into question & disrepute.
Unfortunately, many today see no value in being water baptized because the Church has strayed so far away from its normal & proper practise - what they read in the Bible & what's being practised by the Church do not align at all. Baptism becomes an optional extra, whenever the believer is ready to do it. And it was never an option in the Book of Acts - you believed, you were baptized forthwith - because that was the special significance of baptism. I'll stop here & again thanks & GBU brother.
Hi Chris, lets talk about John's baptism.
I will start with Paul meeting those disciples in Ephesus. He asked them if they were baptized in the Spirit after they were baptized in water (should they?). They answered that they never heard of the HS. He asks them in what name were they baptized (how come they never heard of the HS since in baptism we are baptised in the name of F and S and the HS, this being another evidence that believers were not baptised just in the name of Jesus). They said they were bapt. John's baptism. And he says Acts 19:4 "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance ..." So John's bapt. was a bapt. of repentance. If you make a search about that you will find out that John's bapt. was done as follows. The person to be bapt. went into the river until his waist was submerged, then he stayed like that and started confessing his sins and when he finished confessing he dived in the water and rised. That was the ritual.
There is a detail in Jesus' bapt. that if one is not aware will not notice.
Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:..." Jesus went up straight away. He had nothing to confess, no sin at all. He went into the river and immediately dived and came up.
That is why John tried to prevent Him from being baptized. John knew that Jesus had no sins, there wasn't a reason for Him to be baptized. It was useless for Him. But what did Jesus said " they had to fulfill all righteousness. But why, He had no sin. No reason to be baptized. Because it was a commandment from God and He had to obey although that didn't have any usefulness for Him. Now if Jesus obeyed, shouldn't we? Notice please that Jesus started His ministry with baptism. All other things followed that. But we have gone through these before. You ask many questions like if smd is in death bed and has no time to be baptized. I don't have the right answer to that but my ignorance doesn't cancel the word of God.
Hi again brother Giannis & thank you for your reply. I will restrict myself to the main points.
In your initial post, you shared the Scripture, 1 Peter 3:20,21, & I focussed on it, bringing up the matter of water baptism being an act of having a good (or, pure) conscience before God. That is, water baptism is undertaken not for God's benefit, but for man's: that man visibly partakes in identification with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for him. In so doing, he has not only done what was required by the Lord but also his 'conscience' remains pure & established in his desire to follow his Lord. I was hoping to discuss further on that Scripture, but I see that no one else has pursued it.
Re: Salvation & Works. When I reflect on this, 'works' is anything that has to be added onto faith to make that faith or salvation workable. So, you might have one who wants to make his faith sure by meticulously adhering to acts of kindness, of helping the poor, spending more time in Church & the Word, & so on. Nothing wrong with those acts, but very wrong if they are done to supplement faith, hoping to guarantee God's Acceptance. So, is believing in the Work of the Cross & in Jesus, even responding in love & thankfulness, a work? I believe not. They are heart/spirit responses to acts of mercy & love - those responses do not contribute to the saving Work of Jesus, rather a response to it. Then is saving faith a work? No - it is a Gift of God to effect salvation's work in a sinner. Is obeying the commandments a work? Under OT economy, yes, for by obedience to them, the Jew endeavours to please God & gain His Favour. Under NT economy, if obedience to the commandments is mixed with faith to secure salvation, then that salvation is spurious, not based solely on faith. Likewise, any act added to faith, even water baptism, cannot secure salvation.
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