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Thanks Giannis for responding to the 1 Corinthians 15:29 dilemma, though I wasn't particularly soliciting a response - just giving an example to Ronnette on some Scriptures that are clear to some & other Scriptures that are unclear, as the 1 Corinthians example might show.
I do fully agree with you that this verse speaks of water baptism & specifically concerning the resurrection of Jesus (as this chapter is all about that). When I read of your understanding of that verse (v 29), I note that you apply the "baptism for the dead" to refer to 'baptism unto Jesus Who died but never arose from the grave'.
You might also be aware of other interpretations of that verse. Such as, 'Paul referring to a practise of baptizing new believers who take the place of those departed (the dead)'. Or, 'being baptized vicariously for another to assure that person has a place in Heaven' (this is heresy, I believe). Or, 'those baptized because of & through the testimony of those who had died' (again, a bad understanding I feel).
Your understanding has merit, except that when I read that verse with that thought in mind, I ask, 'why would Paul describe baptism "for the dead" is such terms, when he could have easily have stated (& in line with his earlier verses), using Jesus' Name?' It seems very peculiar for Paul to write it like that, and then say that 'people are being baptized for the dead (plural)'. Even though the plural may not be in the Greek (you could clarify this), the sentence construction appears to indicate that it is those who have died, & not just one person being referred to.
Sorry for my delayed answer, I just wanted to search for some things. So I found out that:
Firstly, ancient (pagan) Greeks were never baptised in the name of the dead. They did actually baptise their children when they were a few days old to devote them to a deity, as an act of a spiritual cleansing in the beggining of their life, and oficially give them a name, but never in the name of a dead person. So it seems there was never such a practice that creeped from idolatry to Christianity.
Secondly, I did a research on internet in English and Greek religious sites and found out that most English interpretations say what you said that Paul talks about people that were baptised in the place that somebody else died. I never found though such an interpretation in Greek Bibles. They suggest many different interpretations. One common inetrpretation is "what shall they do those who believe that they will be joined with the dead saints if the dead will not be ressurected?"
So wha is my conclusion?
I really don't think that people were baptised instead of the dead, nothing in history or any other ancient tradition or early christian writtings suggest something like that. This is probably something modern. Also this idea doesn't fit with all those things that Paul was talking about, why would he say that?
Your interpetetion that "dead" (yes it's plural, in greek adjectives, like nouns, have a prural form) means the "grave, place of the dead people" seems to be right, there may be a problem(?) though with the verse "for the dead", it may be as well interpreted "in sake of/in favor of the dead". Nevermind, this is possibly what Paul wanted to say. I keep though my initial belief that it talks about Jesus that some (that's why Paul says 'they') claimed He was never ressurected in my mind, as well as other logical possible interpetations, until God hopefully reveals the pricise meaning of that.
Thanks all of you for your replies. God Blessings.
I appreciate your reply bro Giannis & for the trouble you've taken to research into this (perplexing) verse. What you've found sheds some new light on it, which should be helpful to others reading this thread.
For this reason this verse seems difficult to me, in that, it stands out like a sore thumb in the midst of Paul's dealing with the subject of the resurrection, & there's little else surrounding the verse to help us know what Paul was referring to. Obviously, the Corinthians knew what he was writing about - we can only make educated guesses (& very valid), as seen in this thread.
I note your understanding that "the dead" refers to Jesus, though I'm still a little hesitant that Paul would have expressed it as he did, if he meant only to a crucified & buried Jesus; almost seems too crude when speaking about the awful death of our Lord. In the chapter, he generally refers to the Person of Christ - so then why refer to Him as "the dead"? Certainly, Jesus would have been his primary focus in this verse, but the wording seems to suggest that both Jesus & believers who die, must arise from the grave based on Christ's resurrection. Or else, believing & being baptized which identifies one with Christ's burial & resurrection, is totally worthless ( 1 Corinthians 15:16-18).
As you wrote, maybe the Lord will 'reveal to us the precise meaning of that verse'. I know that getting a grip on this verse may not be an issue for most Christians, but to those studying in depth or even teaching it, we need to come to grips with it & sense the Spirit's Help & Affirmation. Blessings to you.
I tried to find the original post that began this conversation but with no luck. Anyway, I would like to speak on 1 Corinthians 15:29, not for the purpose of debate, but just to share my understanding of that verse from my studies.
It reads, as you know, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?"
What I have noticed over the years is that this is where some of the occult groups who practice being baptized for the dead, (and it is substitutionary by the way), but they get baptized so that the person who died, if they had not been baptized and it's their belief that you have to be water baptized to be saved, they would be baptized for that person.
So if a person dies, a relative or friend can go ahead and be baptized, substituting themselves for the person that died so that they can do it for their salvation. It sounds pretty far-fetched to me, but it was all part of a pagan ritual back then. And again, some groups practice this even today.
Some of the cult groups that do baptize for the dead, this is the scripture they take and they say Paul is using this to prove there is a resurrection. In other words, "if there's no resurrection, why should we baptize for the dead? But we do baptize for the dead!"
But something that I notice in this verse, and I think this is the key, is that in Verse 29 Paul says they, not we! What shall "they" do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not? Why are they then baptized for the dead? I think what Paul is conveying is that the pagan ritual that they are practicing is a contradiction. They baptize for the dead but they don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Why baptize if the person is not going to be raised?
Thanks brother Jesse. Both you & bro. Ronald have written similarly, which I've much appreciated, and I especially noted both your emphases on the word, 'they', which places this error upon others who engaged in this form of baptism, rather than on the 'we', (i.e. to the Corinthians who held to Paul's teaching, which would have been a correct belief & practise of baptism).
Another point: even if this practise wasn't occurring in the Church, Paul often referred to pagan literature/beliefs to support his teaching in some way. I think of Acts chapter 17: Paul's preaching to the Athenians who were given over to idolatry. Verses 28 & 29 in particular: "For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
As well as Titus 1:12: "One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies"; Paul writing to Titus & for him to be alert to the false teachers in Crete.
So, Paul was not averse to using extra-biblical references to support & re-instruct believers. Seeing this 1 Corinthians 15:29 verse in the midst of Paul's teaching on the resurrection, misled me to thinking that this verse must somehow fit into the rest of his teaching - hence my thought that "baptism for the dead" must be closer to 'baptism for (going to) the grave'. And then I notice verse 12, "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?". This "some among you" may well be those who believed &/or practised that corrupt form of baptism. I often wish we could have had more information from Paul, indeed, more of the Word to help us grasp more fully the events of those times. Thanks for sharing with us on that point, brother.
Brother Chris in one of his posts said that that verse was not clear to him, so I posted my understanding of it. I copy and paste my post to him.
"My opinion about 1 Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
My belief is that it talks about baptism in water in the name of Jesus. Be patient and I will explain myself.
Firstly lets read what the scripture says about baptism in water (what it really symbolizes)
Colossians 2:12
"Buried with him (Jesus) in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Baptism in greek means immersion, submersion)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
One may argue that the above verses are not about baptism in water, but for me their is no doubt.
So Baptism in water symbolizes burial of our old sinful person in the grave (of the water tank) and the rising up (resurrection of) a new person ready to follow a new holly life, exactly like Jesus was burried after crucifixion and was raised up from the dead.
But if Jesus was never resurrected from the dead, baptism would be in the name of a dead Jesus, that is in the name of the dead/for the dead. Ther isn't any benefit for us in such a case. If Jesus was never resurrected, we are still in our sins and we have no eternal life."
Thank you for your respone, but from a research I did, I found out that at least the ancient pagan Greeks (don't Know about other nations at that time) didn't baptize for/in the name of the dead. There wasn't such a practice for it to enter Christianity later on. So the explanation of that verse should be looked for somewhere else. I think Brother Chris' explanation sounds reasonable enough, as well as other ones.
I would agree that 1 Corinthians 15:29 is referring to them performing water baptism as a substitute for the dead who were never water baptized for one reason or another. However, I don't think I can agree that the other two verses you gave ( Colossians 2:12, and Romans 6:3-7) are speaking of water baptism. I understand those verses to be referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I do agree on the symbolism of water baptism. Water baptism is an expression, a testimony, supposedly of what God did in my spirit when I got saved. It is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And yes, I am in agreement with you that the word baptize (BAPTO) means to dip or immerse. Secondly, the word baptism is related to two things, one is cleansing, but it is mostly related to identification.
That is one of the things about Christian baptism, water baptism, is that when you are baptized, it is your testimony of your identification and the inward work of God's Spirit in your life. The second thing that the word baptism represents is cleansing. It was used religiously to represent cleansing.
In the book of Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews says that the Jewish people had many baptisms. And they would practice this, especially the washing of hands. But the Jews would baptize everything, pots, pans, you name it!
As far as the verses Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are concerned, why do you think it'a about Spirit's baptism? Spirit's baptism is not something symbolic for something else as bapt. in water is. One doesn't do anything, simply God sends His Spirit to dwell in him. There is nothing there to symbolize for, I think. And certainly one receiving the HS can not in any case be taken as the burial and ressurection of Jesus.
As you said baptize in greek means to dip, immerse. The Jews practised many baptisms, hands, pots everything. Why? It means to dip them in water just to clean them. That is why John's baptism was for repemting and spiritual cleansing. John 3:3 "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" Please pay attention to that "for the remission of sins". If John's baptism was for the remission of sins, how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?
Nice to hear from you again, we may disagree to some things but is nice to talk to you.
I can get water baptized until I am water logged and it isn't going to do anything for me spiritually. It's just water on the outside of the body. Water baptism cannot produce the ministry Spirit of God. And if I look through this chapter, it's talking about being delivered from sin, dying to sin, and being born into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. You don't do that through water. It's through the Spirit of God!
Spirit baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is the name of the ministry of Jesus Christ. I know the term has been misused today so a lot of people try and stay away from the term "Baptism of the Spirit." But in Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist said "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance."
John's baptism is different than Christian baptism. His was for the Jews that they would repent at the coming of Messiah. He says I baptize you water unto repentance, (not remission of sin), but He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. This is Jesus' ministry, to baptize us with His Spirit. The fire represents judgment. But we become a member of the body of Christ the moment we are saved and that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians 3:27, it says "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ." So the baptism is parallel to and synonymous with putting on Christ, salvation, and receiving Christ. I have to understand this from Paul's perspective. Paul is the one that taught about Spiritual baptism being salvation, and the time that you come into the body of Christ. It is the Lord's ministry, and it is sad that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is misunderstood today and mistaught which takes away from the very function for which it is supposed to serve.
To be fair, I am going to look some more at Colossians 2:12. I may still be on the fence with that one. I hope you have a great day!
Hellow Jesse. Sorry for my delayed answer but it seems there are a lot to talk about and since I was too busy during the week, here I am now.
a. Baptism in water. My belief is that although it is a symbolism it is still a requirement/condition for salvation. The verse in Mark 16:16 does not allow for any other interpretation that it what it reads. For one to be saved there is series of events that must take place. Some of them done by man, some of them done by God.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF- man believes-GOD'S WORD CAUSES REPENTANCE-man repents and wants to change-GOD GIVES NEW BIRTH-man gets baptised in water-GOD GIVES SALVATION (SALVATION COMPLETED)
If verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 didn't exist then it would be OK to consider bapt. in water as not essential. but they do exist, and personally I think.they are crystal clear.
Question. Even if one considers baptism not necessary, isn't it still a commandment of God. For how long can someone live his christian life ignoring that commandment, being in a continuous disobedience, being, that is, in a sin?
b. John's baptism. That baptism was not only baptism of repentance but it was for the remission of sins. It is clear in Luke 3:3. I don't say it, Luke does, inspired by God, isn't it so? So you ask, since Jesus had not been sacrifised yet how sins were erased by God? The same way that God overlooked sins done by God's people in the Old testament time. And since Jesus was to come later on, God's people that died went to Abraham's place in Hades, later after ressurection they were transfered in Heaven.
So there was a somehow preliminary remission of sins. And Jews in Jesus' time that later believed in Jesus had to go through new birth and the christian baptism later on.
But what is important is that for the Jews to be forgiven had to go through repentance AND baptism, not just repentance, thus revealing how important baptism was. Similarly in christian baptism one has to go through both new birth and baptism
As far as that spiritual cleansing I wrote in my post, please consider it unsuccessful, I meant forgiveness of sins.
c. Well about those verses that according to me are about water baptism. I want to start with, that In my belief new birth and baptism in Spirit are separate events. One may be born again by the Spirit but still hasn't got the Spirit dwell in him. But this could be another important topic of discussion later on, if you wish so.
I do understand what you are saying but still I understand those verses in a different way than you
Verses 1-3
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Verses 12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
These verses make me believe that what Paul talks about is not about sanctification but a consideration of a new life.
What, in my opinion, Paul says is that since we died, got buried and were raised up in new life, like Jesus was crucified, was buried and was ressurected from dead, then lets not keep sinning (on purpose) thinking that we have now Christ's Blood, so no problem doing a sin, we will ask for forgiveness later on so God is compelled to forgive us. He uses water baptism as a paralellism to Jesus' life to make christians understand that we walk a new life now, the old sinful life is gone for good, we must think ourselves dead for sin, not even think about sinning, there is something new ahead of us leading to eternal life.
To get a better understanding of Romans 6:3-7, I think it's good to view all the verses together beginning from Verse 1 through Verse 14, where Paul gives us the principles of sanctification. In fact, Chapters 6 through 8 is the doctrine of sanctification. If I study this doctrine, the question would be when does sanctification take place? I believe it happens the moment we receive Christ, the moment He places His Spirit in us. That is when we are sanctified. It does not happen at water baptism.
But anyway, here is what I understand on Romans 6:3. It says, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Many people use this verse as a teaching tool about water baptism. This verse, and in fact the whole chapter is not talking about water baptism. It is talking about the salvation process which is Spiritual baptism. I don't think it's wrong to use this text when somebody is being water baptized. However, water baptism is the outward expression that represents the inward work of God's Spirit at salvation.
There are two kinds of baptism's that are taught in the scriptures, water and Spirit baptism. Some people call it water and dry baptism. But again, the definition for water baptism is the outward expression of the inner work of God's Spirit at salvation. I think we agree on that one?
But this text here Romans 6:3-6 is not talking about water baptism but clearly Spirit baptism. There are several reasons why, but the most important reason is that when I look at water baptism, water baptism does not produce the work of God's Spirit.
Hi Gianni's , I hope you don't mind me responding to you , here are some references that you may find helpful , or not smiley face , Acts Ch 2 V 38 and Acts Ch 10 V 44-48 . Also Acts Ch 8 V 12- 39 .
I just wanted to touch on Luke 3:3, and also respond to your comment telling me to "Please pay attention to that "for the remission of sins". If John's baptism was for the remission of sins, how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?"
So, as you asked, I am focusing on the part that says "for the remission of sins," and I know that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the Jews, and that John was water baptizing these Jews. However, water baptism was not for the remission of sin because no amount of water can wash away or remit sin.
It tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. When John baptized, there was no blood shed, therefore, there could not have been any remission of sin. The Jews would go down to the Sea of Galilee or the Jordan River every year and get water baptized, but that was not for the remission of sin. If John's baptism (Water) was for the remission of sin, why would they get water baptized every year?
You ask: "how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?" I cannot answer for others, but my answer would be that Christian baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. But John's baptism (Water baptism) was not Christian baptism. It was a baptism of repentance for the Jews. In order for their sins to be remitted, they needed to repent, turn away from Judaism, and surrender their lives to Christ as their Messiah. Submitting to water baptism would not remit their sin.
You mentioned that "John's baptism was for repenting and spiritual cleansing," but where in scripture does it tell us that John's baptism was for spiritual cleansing? All I see is that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It says nothing about spiritual cleansing? So my understanding is that water baptism does not cleanse us spiritually. Being baptized by God's Spirit is what cleanses us. I hope we can agree on that?
Thanks for your reply, brother Jesse, I will answer you tomorrow since it's getting late at night here. I will also like to explain me your thoughts about those verses in Colossians and Romans. GBU
Here is why I believe Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are referring to spirit baptism. First of all we are told earlier on in Colossians Chapter 2 that we are circumcised by Christ by the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh.
But now it tells us that we are also buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation, (or energizing of God), who has raised him from the dead.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. When a person is born of the Spirit of God, it is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the time when you are cleansed from your sin, and that is our identification with Christ. It is not water baptism that saves. Peter argued that in his first letter in Chapter 4 that it's not the pouring of water over the flesh, but it's the answer of a good conscience towards God. So for me, it's spiritual, not physical.
But what is baptism supposed to be for? Water baptism is a testimony of the inward work of God's Spirit. Can a person get baptized and still not be saved? Yes! I think we both agree that water baptism is an outward expression, a testimony of the inward work of God's Spirit. In other words, I am baptized by God's Spirit. That's the coming of Christ into my life, the cleansing.
And I get water baptized in order to be a testimony that I have experienced the Spiritual baptism by Christ. Like I said, I can be unsaved and still get baptized in a religious ceremony. But it doesn't mean a thing. It's just water. It's not spiritual. 1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us that we're all baptized by one Spirit into the body.
I'm running out of space. I'll send my thoughts on Romans 6:3-7 in a separate post.
I don't believe we are very far off on our belief about water baptism and Spirit baptism. I do agree that water baptism is symbolic, and baptism of the Holy Spirit not symbolic. Water baptism just symbolizes an action (Salvation) that has already taken place. I'm not sure if you were trying to explain that to me, but I am in agreement with that part.
My reasoning for believing Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are referring to Spirit baptism, not water, would take much more space to explain that what we have here. If you need me to explain, and you are willing to read a much longer post, I can do so. Again, not to debate or change your mind, but to give my understanding.
You posted John 3:3, but I'm sure you meant Luke 3:3. This is where we might differ. First of all, John's baptism is not believer's baptism. It has nothing to do with Christian baptism. This was for the Jews. It was a requirement for them. Luke Chapter 7 tells us that it was a requirement that they go through the baptism of John in order to express repentance and they are ready to surrender to the Messiah.
Luke Chapter 7 tells us that it was God's council that all the Pharisees be baptized by John in order to receive Messiah. And he says they rejected the baptism of John. So it was a requirement that they do both. They had to go through John's baptism and be born of the Spirit. That's for the Jews only.
But John's baptism is not Christian baptism. It was a baptism of repentance for the Jewish people only, and there's a reason for that. Every year, the Jewish people would go down to the Sea of Galilee or to the Jordan River and be baptized. It is called the MIKVAH or MIKVEH. For the believer, when we get baptized in what we call believer's baptism, (water involved), it is supposed to represent and testify to the inward work of Christ of salvation. It is after we are saved.
Well, it looks like I'll need a little more space anyway. I'll respond to your last part in a separate post.
For what it's worth, I've for a long time held the opinion that "the dead" refers to the place of the dead, i.e. the grave. And so I read the verse, 'what shall they do which are baptized (i.e. those identifying with Christ), just to go to the grave & remain there. Why are they saved & baptized just to lie in the grave (to where the dead go)? Why do we (Paul & others) stand in jeopardy every hour, just to disappear into eternity?' That's why Christ's Resurrection was so important, & for this added reason, that it is a promise that those in Christ will also be raised from the grave (v20, "Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept"). And v17, "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain (worthless); ye are yet in your sins".
Your understanding is certainly worthy of consideration (as I've never considered it in that way), but we have the hurdle to overcome with the phrase, "for the dead", which seems to not apply to a single person but to multiple people, or even the graves of many people. You thoughts brother - or from anyone else.
I feel you have given a good analysis of that verse. The Greeks believed in an afterlife and the soul being immortal from Socrates and Plato, but not in the resurrection which Paul was teaching being a very important part of the gospel. The wording Paul used, they and not we, (why are they) as to point out what others were doing not what he was teaching.
A living person, acting as a proxy being water baptized for a deceased person most of the time of the same sex. Mormons and others still do it today, but we know death shuts the door and the ticket of destination is nonrefundable.
My understanding, the chapter starts out like Paul came back and was trying to reaffirm and straighten out some of the things they were doing. He said, "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". He may have been confronting another group that was not following his teaching and was making a point if they did not believe in the resurrection, why are they baptizing for the dead that died before Paul brought the gospel to them.
Thank you brother Ronald - your comment was very enlightening. Even as bro. Jesse similarly stated (& which I overlooked), you mentioned that Paul was referring to "they" (as in "what shall THEY do"), as those of another following or party within the Corinthian Church. Indeed, it seems very likely that there was a practice going on that was inconsistent to what the Corinthians heard from Paul & even that strange practice showed that a resurrection must be the end result. Blessings.
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Thanks Giannis for responding to the 1 Corinthians 15:29 dilemma, though I wasn't particularly soliciting a response - just giving an example to Ronnette on some Scriptures that are clear to some & other Scriptures that are unclear, as the 1 Corinthians example might show.
I do fully agree with you that this verse speaks of water baptism & specifically concerning the resurrection of Jesus (as this chapter is all about that). When I read of your understanding of that verse (v 29), I note that you apply the "baptism for the dead" to refer to 'baptism unto Jesus Who died but never arose from the grave'.
You might also be aware of other interpretations of that verse. Such as, 'Paul referring to a practise of baptizing new believers who take the place of those departed (the dead)'. Or, 'being baptized vicariously for another to assure that person has a place in Heaven' (this is heresy, I believe). Or, 'those baptized because of & through the testimony of those who had died' (again, a bad understanding I feel).
Your understanding has merit, except that when I read that verse with that thought in mind, I ask, 'why would Paul describe baptism "for the dead" is such terms, when he could have easily have stated (& in line with his earlier verses), using Jesus' Name?' It seems very peculiar for Paul to write it like that, and then say that 'people are being baptized for the dead (plural)'. Even though the plural may not be in the Greek (you could clarify this), the sentence construction appears to indicate that it is those who have died, & not just one person being referred to.
Sorry for my delayed answer, I just wanted to search for some things. So I found out that:
Firstly, ancient (pagan) Greeks were never baptised in the name of the dead. They did actually baptise their children when they were a few days old to devote them to a deity, as an act of a spiritual cleansing in the beggining of their life, and oficially give them a name, but never in the name of a dead person. So it seems there was never such a practice that creeped from idolatry to Christianity.
Secondly, I did a research on internet in English and Greek religious sites and found out that most English interpretations say what you said that Paul talks about people that were baptised in the place that somebody else died. I never found though such an interpretation in Greek Bibles. They suggest many different interpretations. One common inetrpretation is "what shall they do those who believe that they will be joined with the dead saints if the dead will not be ressurected?"
So wha is my conclusion?
I really don't think that people were baptised instead of the dead, nothing in history or any other ancient tradition or early christian writtings suggest something like that. This is probably something modern. Also this idea doesn't fit with all those things that Paul was talking about, why would he say that?
Your interpetetion that "dead" (yes it's plural, in greek adjectives, like nouns, have a prural form) means the "grave, place of the dead people" seems to be right, there may be a problem(?) though with the verse "for the dead", it may be as well interpreted "in sake of/in favor of the dead". Nevermind, this is possibly what Paul wanted to say. I keep though my initial belief that it talks about Jesus that some (that's why Paul says 'they') claimed He was never ressurected in my mind, as well as other logical possible interpetations, until God hopefully reveals the pricise meaning of that.
Thanks all of you for your replies. God Blessings.
For this reason this verse seems difficult to me, in that, it stands out like a sore thumb in the midst of Paul's dealing with the subject of the resurrection, & there's little else surrounding the verse to help us know what Paul was referring to. Obviously, the Corinthians knew what he was writing about - we can only make educated guesses (& very valid), as seen in this thread.
I note your understanding that "the dead" refers to Jesus, though I'm still a little hesitant that Paul would have expressed it as he did, if he meant only to a crucified & buried Jesus; almost seems too crude when speaking about the awful death of our Lord. In the chapter, he generally refers to the Person of Christ - so then why refer to Him as "the dead"? Certainly, Jesus would have been his primary focus in this verse, but the wording seems to suggest that both Jesus & believers who die, must arise from the grave based on Christ's resurrection. Or else, believing & being baptized which identifies one with Christ's burial & resurrection, is totally worthless ( 1 Corinthians 15:16-18).
As you wrote, maybe the Lord will 'reveal to us the precise meaning of that verse'. I know that getting a grip on this verse may not be an issue for most Christians, but to those studying in depth or even teaching it, we need to come to grips with it & sense the Spirit's Help & Affirmation. Blessings to you.
I tried to find the original post that began this conversation but with no luck. Anyway, I would like to speak on 1 Corinthians 15:29, not for the purpose of debate, but just to share my understanding of that verse from my studies.
It reads, as you know, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?"
What I have noticed over the years is that this is where some of the occult groups who practice being baptized for the dead, (and it is substitutionary by the way), but they get baptized so that the person who died, if they had not been baptized and it's their belief that you have to be water baptized to be saved, they would be baptized for that person.
So if a person dies, a relative or friend can go ahead and be baptized, substituting themselves for the person that died so that they can do it for their salvation. It sounds pretty far-fetched to me, but it was all part of a pagan ritual back then. And again, some groups practice this even today.
Some of the cult groups that do baptize for the dead, this is the scripture they take and they say Paul is using this to prove there is a resurrection. In other words, "if there's no resurrection, why should we baptize for the dead? But we do baptize for the dead!"
But something that I notice in this verse, and I think this is the key, is that in Verse 29 Paul says they, not we! What shall "they" do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not? Why are they then baptized for the dead? I think what Paul is conveying is that the pagan ritual that they are practicing is a contradiction. They baptize for the dead but they don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Why baptize if the person is not going to be raised?
Blessings in Christ!
Another point: even if this practise wasn't occurring in the Church, Paul often referred to pagan literature/beliefs to support his teaching in some way. I think of Acts chapter 17: Paul's preaching to the Athenians who were given over to idolatry. Verses 28 & 29 in particular: "For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
As well as Titus 1:12: "One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies"; Paul writing to Titus & for him to be alert to the false teachers in Crete.
So, Paul was not averse to using extra-biblical references to support & re-instruct believers. Seeing this 1 Corinthians 15:29 verse in the midst of Paul's teaching on the resurrection, misled me to thinking that this verse must somehow fit into the rest of his teaching - hence my thought that "baptism for the dead" must be closer to 'baptism for (going to) the grave'. And then I notice verse 12, "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?". This "some among you" may well be those who believed &/or practised that corrupt form of baptism. I often wish we could have had more information from Paul, indeed, more of the Word to help us grasp more fully the events of those times. Thanks for sharing with us on that point, brother.
Brother Chris in one of his posts said that that verse was not clear to him, so I posted my understanding of it. I copy and paste my post to him.
"My opinion about 1 Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
My belief is that it talks about baptism in water in the name of Jesus. Be patient and I will explain myself.
Firstly lets read what the scripture says about baptism in water (what it really symbolizes)
Colossians 2:12
"Buried with him (Jesus) in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Baptism in greek means immersion, submersion)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
One may argue that the above verses are not about baptism in water, but for me their is no doubt.
So Baptism in water symbolizes burial of our old sinful person in the grave (of the water tank) and the rising up (resurrection of) a new person ready to follow a new holly life, exactly like Jesus was burried after crucifixion and was raised up from the dead.
But if Jesus was never resurrected from the dead, baptism would be in the name of a dead Jesus, that is in the name of the dead/for the dead. Ther isn't any benefit for us in such a case. If Jesus was never resurrected, we are still in our sins and we have no eternal life."
GBU
constantly addressing pagan practices that certain individuals did not give up or were persuaded to keep doing them. In the
corinthian church Paul had to address sexual perversion because there were christians delivered from that, but kept certain
practices not Good. There was a rather large temple at corinth that sex was worshipped, I think the god was eros.
Thank you for your respone, but from a research I did, I found out that at least the ancient pagan Greeks (don't Know about other nations at that time) didn't baptize for/in the name of the dead. There wasn't such a practice for it to enter Christianity later on. So the explanation of that verse should be looked for somewhere else. I think Brother Chris' explanation sounds reasonable enough, as well as other ones.
GBU
I would agree that 1 Corinthians 15:29 is referring to them performing water baptism as a substitute for the dead who were never water baptized for one reason or another. However, I don't think I can agree that the other two verses you gave ( Colossians 2:12, and Romans 6:3-7) are speaking of water baptism. I understand those verses to be referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I do agree on the symbolism of water baptism. Water baptism is an expression, a testimony, supposedly of what God did in my spirit when I got saved. It is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And yes, I am in agreement with you that the word baptize (BAPTO) means to dip or immerse. Secondly, the word baptism is related to two things, one is cleansing, but it is mostly related to identification.
That is one of the things about Christian baptism, water baptism, is that when you are baptized, it is your testimony of your identification and the inward work of God's Spirit in your life. The second thing that the word baptism represents is cleansing. It was used religiously to represent cleansing.
In the book of Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews says that the Jewish people had many baptisms. And they would practice this, especially the washing of hands. But the Jews would baptize everything, pots, pans, you name it!
Blessings to you also!
Thanks for your reply.
As far as the verses Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are concerned, why do you think it'a about Spirit's baptism? Spirit's baptism is not something symbolic for something else as bapt. in water is. One doesn't do anything, simply God sends His Spirit to dwell in him. There is nothing there to symbolize for, I think. And certainly one receiving the HS can not in any case be taken as the burial and ressurection of Jesus.
As you said baptize in greek means to dip, immerse. The Jews practised many baptisms, hands, pots everything. Why? It means to dip them in water just to clean them. That is why John's baptism was for repemting and spiritual cleansing. John 3:3 "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" Please pay attention to that "for the remission of sins". If John's baptism was for the remission of sins, how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?
Nice to hear from you again, we may disagree to some things but is nice to talk to you.
Blessings
I can get water baptized until I am water logged and it isn't going to do anything for me spiritually. It's just water on the outside of the body. Water baptism cannot produce the ministry Spirit of God. And if I look through this chapter, it's talking about being delivered from sin, dying to sin, and being born into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. You don't do that through water. It's through the Spirit of God!
Spirit baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is the name of the ministry of Jesus Christ. I know the term has been misused today so a lot of people try and stay away from the term "Baptism of the Spirit." But in Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist said "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance."
John's baptism is different than Christian baptism. His was for the Jews that they would repent at the coming of Messiah. He says I baptize you water unto repentance, (not remission of sin), but He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. This is Jesus' ministry, to baptize us with His Spirit. The fire represents judgment. But we become a member of the body of Christ the moment we are saved and that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians 3:27, it says "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ." So the baptism is parallel to and synonymous with putting on Christ, salvation, and receiving Christ. I have to understand this from Paul's perspective. Paul is the one that taught about Spiritual baptism being salvation, and the time that you come into the body of Christ. It is the Lord's ministry, and it is sad that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is misunderstood today and mistaught which takes away from the very function for which it is supposed to serve.
To be fair, I am going to look some more at Colossians 2:12. I may still be on the fence with that one. I hope you have a great day!
Hellow Jesse. Sorry for my delayed answer but it seems there are a lot to talk about and since I was too busy during the week, here I am now.
a. Baptism in water. My belief is that although it is a symbolism it is still a requirement/condition for salvation. The verse in Mark 16:16 does not allow for any other interpretation that it what it reads. For one to be saved there is series of events that must take place. Some of them done by man, some of them done by God.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF- man believes-GOD'S WORD CAUSES REPENTANCE-man repents and wants to change-GOD GIVES NEW BIRTH-man gets baptised in water-GOD GIVES SALVATION (SALVATION COMPLETED)
If verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 didn't exist then it would be OK to consider bapt. in water as not essential. but they do exist, and personally I think.they are crystal clear.
Question. Even if one considers baptism not necessary, isn't it still a commandment of God. For how long can someone live his christian life ignoring that commandment, being in a continuous disobedience, being, that is, in a sin?
b. John's baptism. That baptism was not only baptism of repentance but it was for the remission of sins. It is clear in Luke 3:3. I don't say it, Luke does, inspired by God, isn't it so? So you ask, since Jesus had not been sacrifised yet how sins were erased by God? The same way that God overlooked sins done by God's people in the Old testament time. And since Jesus was to come later on, God's people that died went to Abraham's place in Hades, later after ressurection they were transfered in Heaven.
So there was a somehow preliminary remission of sins. And Jews in Jesus' time that later believed in Jesus had to go through new birth and the christian baptism later on.
But what is important is that for the Jews to be forgiven had to go through repentance AND baptism, not just repentance, thus revealing how important baptism was. Similarly in christian baptism one has to go through both new birth and baptism
Jesse
As far as that spiritual cleansing I wrote in my post, please consider it unsuccessful, I meant forgiveness of sins.
c. Well about those verses that according to me are about water baptism. I want to start with, that In my belief new birth and baptism in Spirit are separate events. One may be born again by the Spirit but still hasn't got the Spirit dwell in him. But this could be another important topic of discussion later on, if you wish so.
I do understand what you are saying but still I understand those verses in a different way than you
Verses 1-3
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Verses 12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
These verses make me believe that what Paul talks about is not about sanctification but a consideration of a new life.
What, in my opinion, Paul says is that since we died, got buried and were raised up in new life, like Jesus was crucified, was buried and was ressurected from dead, then lets not keep sinning (on purpose) thinking that we have now Christ's Blood, so no problem doing a sin, we will ask for forgiveness later on so God is compelled to forgive us. He uses water baptism as a paralellism to Jesus' life to make christians understand that we walk a new life now, the old sinful life is gone for good, we must think ourselves dead for sin, not even think about sinning, there is something new ahead of us leading to eternal life.
Have a blessed w/e.
Giannis,
To get a better understanding of Romans 6:3-7, I think it's good to view all the verses together beginning from Verse 1 through Verse 14, where Paul gives us the principles of sanctification. In fact, Chapters 6 through 8 is the doctrine of sanctification. If I study this doctrine, the question would be when does sanctification take place? I believe it happens the moment we receive Christ, the moment He places His Spirit in us. That is when we are sanctified. It does not happen at water baptism.
But anyway, here is what I understand on Romans 6:3. It says, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Many people use this verse as a teaching tool about water baptism. This verse, and in fact the whole chapter is not talking about water baptism. It is talking about the salvation process which is Spiritual baptism. I don't think it's wrong to use this text when somebody is being water baptized. However, water baptism is the outward expression that represents the inward work of God's Spirit at salvation.
There are two kinds of baptism's that are taught in the scriptures, water and Spirit baptism. Some people call it water and dry baptism. But again, the definition for water baptism is the outward expression of the inner work of God's Spirit at salvation. I think we agree on that one?
But this text here Romans 6:3-6 is not talking about water baptism but clearly Spirit baptism. There are several reasons why, but the most important reason is that when I look at water baptism, water baptism does not produce the work of God's Spirit.
(Part 2)
I just wanted to touch on Luke 3:3, and also respond to your comment telling me to "Please pay attention to that "for the remission of sins". If John's baptism was for the remission of sins, how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?"
So, as you asked, I am focusing on the part that says "for the remission of sins," and I know that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the Jews, and that John was water baptizing these Jews. However, water baptism was not for the remission of sin because no amount of water can wash away or remit sin.
It tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. When John baptized, there was no blood shed, therefore, there could not have been any remission of sin. The Jews would go down to the Sea of Galilee or the Jordan River every year and get water baptized, but that was not for the remission of sin. If John's baptism (Water) was for the remission of sin, why would they get water baptized every year?
You ask: "how do some of us believe that the christian baptism is not necassary for salvation?" I cannot answer for others, but my answer would be that Christian baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. But John's baptism (Water baptism) was not Christian baptism. It was a baptism of repentance for the Jews. In order for their sins to be remitted, they needed to repent, turn away from Judaism, and surrender their lives to Christ as their Messiah. Submitting to water baptism would not remit their sin.
You mentioned that "John's baptism was for repenting and spiritual cleansing," but where in scripture does it tell us that John's baptism was for spiritual cleansing? All I see is that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It says nothing about spiritual cleansing? So my understanding is that water baptism does not cleanse us spiritually. Being baptized by God's Spirit is what cleanses us. I hope we can agree on that?
Here is why I believe Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are referring to spirit baptism. First of all we are told earlier on in Colossians Chapter 2 that we are circumcised by Christ by the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh.
But now it tells us that we are also buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation, (or energizing of God), who has raised him from the dead.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. When a person is born of the Spirit of God, it is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the time when you are cleansed from your sin, and that is our identification with Christ. It is not water baptism that saves. Peter argued that in his first letter in Chapter 4 that it's not the pouring of water over the flesh, but it's the answer of a good conscience towards God. So for me, it's spiritual, not physical.
But what is baptism supposed to be for? Water baptism is a testimony of the inward work of God's Spirit. Can a person get baptized and still not be saved? Yes! I think we both agree that water baptism is an outward expression, a testimony of the inward work of God's Spirit. In other words, I am baptized by God's Spirit. That's the coming of Christ into my life, the cleansing.
And I get water baptized in order to be a testimony that I have experienced the Spiritual baptism by Christ. Like I said, I can be unsaved and still get baptized in a religious ceremony. But it doesn't mean a thing. It's just water. It's not spiritual. 1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us that we're all baptized by one Spirit into the body.
I'm running out of space. I'll send my thoughts on Romans 6:3-7 in a separate post.
I don't believe we are very far off on our belief about water baptism and Spirit baptism. I do agree that water baptism is symbolic, and baptism of the Holy Spirit not symbolic. Water baptism just symbolizes an action (Salvation) that has already taken place. I'm not sure if you were trying to explain that to me, but I am in agreement with that part.
My reasoning for believing Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:3-7 are referring to Spirit baptism, not water, would take much more space to explain that what we have here. If you need me to explain, and you are willing to read a much longer post, I can do so. Again, not to debate or change your mind, but to give my understanding.
You posted John 3:3, but I'm sure you meant Luke 3:3. This is where we might differ. First of all, John's baptism is not believer's baptism. It has nothing to do with Christian baptism. This was for the Jews. It was a requirement for them. Luke Chapter 7 tells us that it was a requirement that they go through the baptism of John in order to express repentance and they are ready to surrender to the Messiah.
Luke Chapter 7 tells us that it was God's council that all the Pharisees be baptized by John in order to receive Messiah. And he says they rejected the baptism of John. So it was a requirement that they do both. They had to go through John's baptism and be born of the Spirit. That's for the Jews only.
But John's baptism is not Christian baptism. It was a baptism of repentance for the Jewish people only, and there's a reason for that. Every year, the Jewish people would go down to the Sea of Galilee or to the Jordan River and be baptized. It is called the MIKVAH or MIKVEH. For the believer, when we get baptized in what we call believer's baptism, (water involved), it is supposed to represent and testify to the inward work of Christ of salvation. It is after we are saved.
Well, it looks like I'll need a little more space anyway. I'll respond to your last part in a separate post.
For what it's worth, I've for a long time held the opinion that "the dead" refers to the place of the dead, i.e. the grave. And so I read the verse, 'what shall they do which are baptized (i.e. those identifying with Christ), just to go to the grave & remain there. Why are they saved & baptized just to lie in the grave (to where the dead go)? Why do we (Paul & others) stand in jeopardy every hour, just to disappear into eternity?' That's why Christ's Resurrection was so important, & for this added reason, that it is a promise that those in Christ will also be raised from the grave (v20, "Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept"). And v17, "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain (worthless); ye are yet in your sins".
Your understanding is certainly worthy of consideration (as I've never considered it in that way), but we have the hurdle to overcome with the phrase, "for the dead", which seems to not apply to a single person but to multiple people, or even the graves of many people. You thoughts brother - or from anyone else.
I feel you have given a good analysis of that verse. The Greeks believed in an afterlife and the soul being immortal from Socrates and Plato, but not in the resurrection which Paul was teaching being a very important part of the gospel. The wording Paul used, they and not we, (why are they) as to point out what others were doing not what he was teaching.
A living person, acting as a proxy being water baptized for a deceased person most of the time of the same sex. Mormons and others still do it today, but we know death shuts the door and the ticket of destination is nonrefundable.
My understanding, the chapter starts out like Paul came back and was trying to reaffirm and straighten out some of the things they were doing. He said, "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". He may have been confronting another group that was not following his teaching and was making a point if they did not believe in the resurrection, why are they baptizing for the dead that died before Paul brought the gospel to them.
Love your posts.
God bless,
RLW
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