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Jeasus was/is a perfect man and simultaneously God. In the Bible one has to distinguish between verses that are referring to Him as a man and verses that are referring to Him as a God.
ie. 1. As a Man
As a man Jesus was praying to God, was filled with God's Spirit, He was lower than God, He doesn't know the date of rapture, He sits at rhe right hand side of God, He didn't permform any miracle on His own but was always asking for Father to do them, He was ressurected by the power of God, He was given the HS who He sends to dweli in believers,... etc
2. As a God Jesus never used His divine power, it is what those verses in Philippians say, He never tried to overcome his human nature (He could go on for ever without sleeping, eating, getting tired but He didn't do that), He knew what was inside the heart of any man. He was sinless, many verses that have been already stated by others make obvious His divine nature..I just remind you what He said to Jews once "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19. Him not Father not Holly Spirit. Here Jesus talks as the Godhead.
So let's not be confused and mix up verses that either show Him as a man or as a God. He is both. My opinion...
GBU
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 .......that God may be ALL in ALL.
Can you please tell me what you believe these seven words mean, that end verse 28?
We all are just trying to come to TRUTH.
God Bless YOU.
When our body of flesh and blood DIES, do you believe we are instantly in the presence of God with the same glorified body that Christ has.
We don't have to wait for the second resurrection, we are the (first) resurrection INTO Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the LIFE also of JESUS might be made manifest in OUR BODY.
2 Corinthians 4:11 For WE WHICH LIVE (being raised INTO Christ) are always delivered unto DEATH for Jesus' sake, that the LIFE OF JESUS might be made manifest in OUR MORTAL FLESH.
Colossians 1:27 ....this mystery ....CHRIST IN YOU......
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (Christ in you) that worketh (his life, we have no life, we are just CHRIST BODY) in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure (Christ is the LIFE in us)
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth IT (the new creation: the LIFE OF CHRIST) a body, and to every SEED HIS (the FATHER'S) own body (Christ is the BODY of the FATHER).
1 Corinthians 15:28 ...And GOD (the Father, the ONLY LIFE THERE IS) will be ALL (LIFE) in ALL (BODIES).
Ephesians 4:4 ONE Spirit (one life) ...ONE Body (man) ....
Ephesians 4:5 ONE God and Father of ALL .....
God BLESS YOU
Son of GOD = Luke 18:19, Mark 10:18, Matthew 19:17, John 10:11,14 Matthew 11:26, Luke 12:32, Matthew 13:37, John 10:15, John 10:17, John 10:32, Matthew 2:15, Matthew 3:17, Matthew 4, Matthew 8:29, Matthew 11:27, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 16:16, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 17:5, Matthew 21:9, Matthew 27:40,43,55, Matthew 22:2, Matthew 28:19, Mark 1:1,11, Mark 3:11, Mark 5:7, Mark 9:7, Mark 13:32,34, Mark 15:39, Luke 1:32, Luke 3:22, Luke 1:35, Luke 4, Luke 8:28, Luke 9:35, Luke 10:22, John 1:18,34, John 1:49, John 6:27,40,69, John 8:28,35,36, John 9:35,
Mark 9:50, Luke 15:31, John 3:15,16,17,18, John 3:35,36, John 11:4,27, John 14:13, John 30:21, Acts 3:31,36, Acts 8:37, Acts 13:33, Romans 1, Romans 5:10, Romans 8, 1Corinthians 1:9, Colossians 1:13, 1Thessalonians 1:10, Hebrews 4:14, 1John 4:9,10,14,
For Suze : just like Jesus said to her : Matthew 9:22, & Matthew 10:22,
Also explains: Matthew 1:23, John 17, Galatians 2:20, Galations 4, Ephesians 4:13, 1John 4:15, 1John 5:5,11,
Why they hated & killed Jesus: Matthew 21:15, Matthew 21:37,38, Matthew 26:63,64,65,66, Mark 12:6-9, Luke 22:70,71, John 10:36-39, John 19:7,
To all believers: 2Timothy 2:24, 1John 3:23,
Philippians 2:6, 1Corinthians 15:28, Hebrews 1:2,5,8, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 5:5, 1John 2:22,23,24, 2John 1:9,
John 5:19,20,21,22,23,25,26,27,
Hopefully these are helpful to everyone
No, neither do I believe Jesus was God. As I've previously mentioned though, the only difference is that God created Jesus; Jesus did not create God. Creation is an extension of self (in God's case, Self), thus Jesus has ALL the qualities and characteristics of His Creator and NOTHING else. Jesus has nothing that does not come from God. The difference between Jesus and us is that we appear to have something else (flaws in our thinking). Without Jesus, Whom speaks only what the Holy Spirit speaks through Him, the distance between God and man would be too great for us to encompass. Peace be with you.
OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY OF PROPET ISAIAH
SHEDDING OF BLOOD FOR REMISSION OF SINS
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10 - Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:11 - I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
NEW TESTAMENT - OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY FULFILLED
JESUS SHED BLOOD, DIED ON THE CROSS, RISEN FROM THE DEAD, ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 - The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Colossians 1:15 - 22 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist
Just a note .
The Bible also says Jesus created everything and was there in the beginning. He is not a created being which some assume "begotton" means. I've never heard all these creative twists on scripture until just a couple years ago and still amazes me how crafty satan is to deceive so many Christians in such a clever way as to get them to deny the divinity of Jesus. It's like a pastor fell away and wrote books or went campaining against Jesus or something. There is a mountain of verses affirming Jesus's divinity, and only few verses requiring twisting in order to arrive at the other conclusion. People trusting flawed human logic over God's Word. Itching ears want to hear certain things sometimes. God bless.
Notice verse 2 ( for the life was manifested, and we have seen it , and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life , which was WITH the FATHER.... notice it does not say IS the FATHER. That would mean Jesus is the Father . No the Father was with him , just as Jesus has been saying all along .
John 1:1 clearly says Jesus is God and the mountain of other verses I posted all support that. For example, God being called 'we' and 'us' plural. How else do you explain that?
Jesus was worshipped and called God directly by His disciples and He allowed it and never denied it.
Not sure if you've truly read all the verses I posted above, but how do you account for that mountain of overwhelming evidence supporting Jesus's divinity and believe He isn't?
And finally, have you prayed to God the Father directly and asked Him for what the truth is? Have you deeply and prayerfully read the scriptures and prayed for wisdom and understanding so that the truth will be revealed?
Not in any scriptures I have read .
And on this thread I just posted 26 other verses supporting that Jesus is God, the Son, and that God is truine. How many verses have you found supporting the opposite?
To give this even consideration, please share at least 26 or more verses supporting your view and then we can pray over this and read them together. Surely if we pray to God to know the truth and open our hearts to receive His wisdom and truth we can come to arrive at the truth, do you agree?
Link
Other Scriptures have been given on this thread, but I would emphasize only a few:
John 17:5 - Jesus had God's Glory even before the worlds were created.
Matthew 1:23 - Jesus' Name, Emmanuel, is "God with us".
Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus is God's Image; Jesus created all things; Jesus was before all things & He holds all things together.
John 10:30 - Jesus' claimed equality with God, for this very reason the Jews wanted to stone Him.
Just a few very compelling verses to show beyond doubt that this Jesus was not a mere created being for the world's salvation. He was the Essence of God (the Word of God made flesh) Who was declared as God coming in the flesh ( John 1:1-14).
We would have to discount Jesus' former Glory in Heaven, His Name as, "God now with mankind", His creative & sustaining Work, and His Own claim of equality with the Father, to believe that Jesus was anything less than wholly Divine in Heaven & on Earth.
It may be difficult for our fickle human minds to comprehend such concepts & Truths, but our weaknesses should not prohibit us from believing God's Word & the necessity for God Himself to pay to secure our salvation (this is His love demonstrated) - no other sacrifice would do - not even a special created human being or a specially prepared animal. If the people of His day understood it & the apostles & early Church believed it, then where & how did we go wrong by rejecting His Deity?
If we keep in context that Jesus is the Son of God , we will understand all the other places in scriptures.
Yes God is and was with Jesus before and after . That does not make jesus God . Any more than if God is with you , that does not make you God either .
God gave Jesus everything , Jesus never had the things until God gave them to him . That's why God is father of all and , Jesus too . Jesus called God father to verify this . God called Jesus his Only begotten Son . This is double verification. that never applied to anyone before in the same way to anyone but Jesus .
I could go on and on .
All power and authority has been given to Jesus by God the father who also sent Jesus as the Christ . The sender is always greater than the sent . Jesus also said the father was greater , a verification again .
Jesus said also I can do nothing without the father , so again the father is greater .
The scriptures say let this mind be in you that was in Christ , who thought it not robbery to be equal with God . So you too are equal to God ? No that's a faulty interpretation.
remember to keep the context that Jesus is the Son of God . And it all makes sense and realistic.
Careful study of the word is so important.
God can't sit beside himself. God Bless bro. see you at the bema!
"In the form of God (Gk. 'morphe', shape, appearance), thought it not robbery to be equal to God (Gk. 'harpagmos', to 'tenaciously grasp' onto His equality with God), but made Himself of no reputation, becoming a servant, humbling Himself even to His death on a Cross". If Jesus was a newly created Being for the purposes of mankind's redemption, the apostle would have never described Him in such a manner - in fact Paul would have been a downright deceiver forcing his readers to believe that Jesus came in God's Likeness, in equality with God, & laying all that aside to fulfil God's Plan for Him & the World, when He was simply a newly created Being. If we don't see this, that Jesus humbled Himself to become man & then lived His Life as a man, ate, slept, wept, rejoiced, suffered, etc. as we do, then all the Scriptures as you've shared, just show Him as an ordinary man. But He was more than a man - not just sent from God, but came from the Godhead - from within God's Person - if not, then we might as well overlook the Philippians reference treating it as false (and of course, the others Adam & I have shared).
So you stated, "Jesus never had the things until God gave them to him." Then the question, 'why didn't Jesus have 'the things'? I think that Philippians chapter 2 answers that. Because He laid it all aside (kenosis - emptying Himself), for the purpose of being human & for the suffering & death which He would bear - because God cannot experience that - but God becoming Man could. And this is the wonder of our salvation & everlasting praise to our God.
You explained this well.
I think most of us agree God is Spirit. John 4:24. I can't help but question though, how can Spirit become flesh (man). The Bible clearly indicates Spirit and flesh are opposites. John 3:6. Should we not seriously consider that Mark 3:23-26 establishes a principle in truth that also applies to God? Thus, if God rises up against Himself, and be divided, He cannot stand, but hath an end. This would reflect "dualism", which is "Gnostic" in nature.
Therefore, to your words, "the Spirit doesn't become flesh (man)" - the Spirit remains as God's Spirit. God took His Word & clothed the Word (Jesus) with human flesh ( John 1:1-14). And this act cannot be an impossible task for God. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Jesus lived out His Days in holiness & worked by the Power of God's Spirit within Him. And this Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus' Spirit, even as Paul declared ( Romans 8:9), & Peter as well ( 1 Peter 1:11).
Question: how can the Spirit of Christ be the same as God's Spirit ( Romans 8:9), if Jesus is not eternally a part of the Godhead? As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit within, but none of us can say that He has replaced our spirit with His Spirit ( Romans 8:16). Our spirits will always exist, but now we have another Spirit Who will "abide with us forever" ( John 14:16). But Jesus Spirit was only the Holy Spirit, & not a human spirit, because He came from the Father Who is Spirit ( John 17:5).
Thank you One Eighty. Referring to 'dualism', i.e. its spiritual aspects & not its other definitions seen in politics, ethics, law, etc. It is defined as "two equal & opposing realities - one of good, the other of evil". And this is clearly gnostic in nature, where the understanding is that 'the flesh can only be evil & the spirit only good - therefore the two can never be fused together'.
And this would be true if Jesus did not just take on pure human flesh, but took on sinful flesh - this is dualism. Remember, the flesh that God gave to Adam & Eve wasn't sinful - so not every instance of flesh equates to sin. The flesh that Jesus came in was not sinful (He came in the "LIKENESS of sinful flesh", i.e. as our flesh is composed of atoms, cells, blood, etc.), but Jesus would have become just like us (in our sinful flesh), if He succumbed to Satan. Satan attempted to replicate what he did to our first parents onto Jesus - Satan succeeded with them, but failed with the last Adam, the Son of God.
So, the incarnation of Jesus can never be dualism, as God did not enter sinful flesh (contrary to gnostic belief about flesh equating to sin), but came into pure flesh. How would we account for the Holy Spirit coming into & residing in a believer in Christ? Surely, that can't happen as we are sinners, albeit forgiven & cleansed. But the Word says this does happen ( John 14:17), showing that God sees us as clean vessels, in which His Spirit is pleased to dwell & interact with our renewed born again human spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot reside with an uncleansed, unrenewed human spirit. So we see a further departure from gnostic thought - that God can indeed come into sinful flesh, but only when the spirit within has been made new.
The Bible does not teach that spirit and flesh (made of matter) are opposites nor that they oppose each other. It is the sinful nature that opposes all that God created good in us. At times the Bible speaks of the spirit warring against the flesh. In this context, Flesh is used as a synonym for the sinful nature, which is immaterial, but manifests sin through our physical being, (mind, body, soul, spirit, emotions) Of these, only the body is material, but it is not evil nor opposing to our immaterial aspects.
Dualism teaches that the material world, (all that is made of matter, including our bodies) is evil and only what is spiritual is good. But Satan is a spirit being and he is the most evil of all. And Jesus was God Incarnate (became human in all senses of the word) yet was sinless and pure and good. Classical dualism teaches that the physical universe, including fleshly bodies) was made by an evil spiritual entity (demi-urge) who opposes the good Spiritual entity who made all that is spiritual. It teaches that these two entities are equal but antagonistic to one another. So, while many Christians do not embrace dualism in the classical sense, some embrace the tenet of dualism by saying that what is physical (made of matter) therefore, our fleshly bodies, is only evil and that our new spiritual nature in Christ is only good.
that's why in timothy Paul writes there is only one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus making reference
to the exalted saviour sitting at Gods right hand.
Yes, I think Gnosticism in earliest forms predates Jesus. For a period, parts of their belief system paralleled Christian thought in the first to third centuries.
Philippians 2:6-8. So, being in the form of God (Spirit), Jesus didn't see it as taking away from God by claiming His equality with God; because Jesus has the Mind of God. Jesus took on the "form" of a servant (man), made to look like man, being found in fashion of man. Jesus appeared as a body named Jesus. John 6:63 : The words He speaks are spirit and life, not flesh which profits nothing (counts as nothing). I can only speculate Paul thought Jesus was only a body, or both (dualism). Spirit or body. Will the real Jesus please stand up.
Peace.
now in human genetics the bloodline is on the male side, when it comes to our saviour HIS BLOOD was pure which is why
Judas said I have betrayed innocent blood. In Hebrews 2:14 it says Jesus Christ took part of the same he had sinless blood
the flesh was corrupt. He never thought to do evil but understood how to with His Fathers help shut the enemy down until
it was time to fulfill and he couldn't be touched until then. He knew how His father functioned via the scriptures because
the only way to know God is by IT IS WRITTEN. What a day when we practice open mind to Gods word and all we do to
His glory not ours which requires caring and walking by the spirit. He was a complete and perfect man of body soul and
spirit or as the scripture say the second adam from heaven. I with you do not believe he litterally was God.
Jesus' sinless fleshly body (humanity) was priceless. His body (humanity) was not worthless. His body (humanity) was what allowed Him to die for us and take away our sins. His body (humanity) was the means of God reconciling mankind to Himself. So, we should not discount the worth of Jesus' humanity and material body. To speak of the body as worthless and the spirit as being of value is quintessential gnostic thought.
I had no intention of implying the body of Jesus is worthless, Nor do I intend to. My posts haven't displayed as such. Nor do I believe any body is evil. In one of my recent posts I stated that I perceive the body as neutral. It acts according to what the mind is telling it. This mind can be either the Mind of God or the mind that opposes it. Listening and attempting to combine these opposing thought systems (voices) is duality. I certainly don't consider myself a Gnostic. Actually, as you correctly stated that Gnostics view the world is evil; I would disagree. I see it as nearly meaningless, other than allowing the Holy Spirit to teach His message of perfect love and forgiveness through what appears to be me, a body. I don't always allow it, sadly. I'm thinking that most Christians would consider this world as completely evil, or to some degree; which we agree is Gnostic in nature. That doesn't make them Gnostic.
You didn't address Philippians 2:6-8 which I mentioned in my last post. If you get an opportunity, I'd like to hear your opinion.
Peace be with you.
God Is
I will get back to you on the Philippian's passage. i have a busy day ahead of me and I want to review the passage and give it some thought and prayer.
I get it. My schedule is going to be abnormally busy for next 5 days.
May you experience peace in whatever you are doing.
God Is