"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Who is the Word?
John 1:14-15 says the Word is Jesus. Does anyone deny that the Word is Jesus?
If someone believes John 1:14, then do they believe John 1:1
"...the Word was God."
"...[Jesus] was God."
JESUS.
WAS.
GOD.
John 1:1
This is God's Word.
Some here are saying "Jesus was NOT God" despite John 1:1 clearly saying Jesus WAS God. I'd like to know exactly how someone can believe in all other verses of the Bible except this one? If something WAS something, that seems to offer little room for interpretation. It means it's the same, does it not? So, if something WAS something, how does someone twist this into believing it says something WAS NOT something?
It then must be asked: since it takes so much effort to take a sentence something WAS something to turn it into: something WAS NOT something, what is the true underlying motive here? Does God's Word carry the most weight and influence or does something else?
This is eerily similar to Gen 3:4 where satan denied what God said and claimed that they shall NOT surely die. Satan loves opposites and this seems to have his signature, does it not?
I welcome any perspective I'm missing, but do not consider anything other Bible verses as valid evidence. God's Word is all that matters and because there's already numerous verses supporting that Jesus is God like John 1:1 then that is what is true. Lastly, why not just pray and ask God directly to know the truth? Genuinely ask!
I loved this site. it is like family and when you do not have one it is a good place to come. I guess I thought this subject could be discussed but seems like I was wrong. I have never denied the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. In my posts I never said the Son of God was created, I said begotten, and we do not know how He was begotten.
Jesus was the beginning of creation Alpha, the beginning He was begotten before anything in the entire creation, nothing was before the Son of God. He was already begotten when God sent and gave Him. He was not begotten in Marys' womb, because everything through Him was created. I feel I listed scripture for everything I said and never was trying to be sneaky or tried to prove anything not true.
I have always treated everyone with love and have always said it is my understanding and have never been dogmatic on any subject. I have never judged and told anyone they were wrong or have I ever belittled anyone. The response I have received is baseless and hurtful.
I am sorry my posts were misunderstood, but as I said they are my understanding and I stand by salvation is only in/through Jesus by the grace of God and through the faith of Jesus is salvation and eternal life and nothing can be placed above that.
Jesus was the beginning of creation and Jesus the Son of God will end this creation in the heavens and the earth when He turns it back to the Father and God makes all new. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.
Dear Ronald , I understand how you feel totally , I'm sure I am not the only one who does . Disagreeing with each other is bound to happen , however , the way we speak to each other is massively important . God sees and hears everything . Trust in Him and be not soon shaken .
I would like to say I do not deny the divinity of the Son of God our Lord and savior.
I know your passion on this subject, and I respect it. This is my understanding and I say this in love and caring because God has blessed this site where it can be discussed where most places it is closed. The doctrine that is at the base of this discussion has risen higher than the scripture for us to attain salvation, only granted to those who accept by faith God's conditions of repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus.
In many to most churches it is at the top of their statement of faith, and you will here, if a person claims to be a Christian but does not believe in this doctrine, he or she is not saved, many even call that person a heretic or a cultist. Is there any scripture that tells us we must believe this doctrine for salvation? Who gave them the authority over scripture?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature Col. 1:15 and the beginning of creation, Rev. 3:14. Jesus manifested God unto men as we see in John 17:1-7. Jesus did not have before He was given, He was given by God the Father, all things, John 3:35, life, John 5:26, judgment, John 5:27, works, John 5:36 all power, Matt 28:18.
John 1:1 Jesus is the word, every word Jesus said was of God and from God the Father, the word of God became flesh not God. God sent the word, Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) What Jesus said was not of Himself but the Father, John 12:49. Question; is a word a word until it is spoken? Like creation God spoke and it was.
Your comment stood out to me: "Jesus is the word, every word Jesus said was of God and from God the Father, the word of God became flesh not God. "
What's interesting is that John 1:1 does not say what you wrote. You acknowledge that Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14, ok so we agree on that aside from your use of a lowercase word instead of Word. The name Word is a proper title, similar to many other names of Jesus has been given.
1. After you used lowercase to describe Jesus instead of Word you then slipped in "word" but as a different meaning but to also create distance between God and Jesus.
That is surprising, because John 1:1 literally says "the Word was God."
Bible: "Word was God."
You: "every word Jesus said was of God."
That seems sneaky to me. That's not what that verse says. I have been in prayer about this and I encourage you to do the same. Surely God will honor those who seek Him with wisdom and understanding about who He is, do you agree?
There's no verse in the Bible that says Jesus isn't God. All the scripture supports that He is part of a triune God and is the Son. Yes, the Father is also called God and I see how people latch onto that. And I see how people don't want to understand that God can sometimes mean God the Father and can sometimes mean a triune God. But if someone believes there's no trinity and that Jesus isn't part of the Godhead as scriptures say, then how else do people explain the verses where God refers to itself as "we" and "us" and how Jesus created everything John 1:3. It says the 3 are 1 in 1 John 5:7. It doesn't say the part of the Godhead is everyone, or Paul, or Peter, or Samson or you. No, there's only 3 and it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost just like it says.
One last comment for now:
"The doctrine says all three are equal, does scripture agree?"
The Bible doesn't say their roles are equal. What doctrine are you talking about?
I was not trying to be sneaky with the lower-case w, that comes from two-finger typing. I understand we will not agree and as long as we can discuss it in love that is ok. It should have been Jesus is the Word, every word Jesus said was of God, and from God the Father, the Word of God became flesh, not God. God sent the Word.
If you will note John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning. One other correction, I should have said the Word, the Son of God became flesh. My understanding.
John 1:3 all things were made by Him, the word translated by here is dia which means through, on account of, because of. We see this again in Eph. 3:9 if you look it up it says God created, and in Col. 1:16 the word dia same meaning through. God created all through Jesus His only begotten Son/Word, Jesus. Same as our salvation and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, from all eternity, these three are the same in substance, equal in power and glory. All three persons of the Trinity are equally God.
If this is incorrect, please forgive me for this is what I have been told and have seen. I am sure there is more, but I am not sure, please correct me if I am wrong but this I what have been told in many churches I have been to, I must believe to be saved.
I know we may not agree, and I thank you for discussing it with me.
In Matthew 1:20-21 we have the account of the angel of the Lord appearing to Joseph in a dream telling him that Mary will become pregnant by the Holy Spirit and the child will be called Jesus (Jesus means YHWH is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.
And goes on to say in vs 22-23 that this event will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14
"Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This verse says that Jesus is YHWH and that He is Immanuel (God with us). So, for me, I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God comprising a Godhead of three distinct Persons in one Godhead.
I enjoy reading your posts, you wear your heart on your sleeve, a good thing. I know you are passionate about the triune God we disagree but please take my reply as done in love. I don't know if you have gone back and dug deep into the history of this creed, you may.
How many people (1000s) who most likely believed in Christ were killed on behalf of this creed. I strain to understand how God would be behind something so harsh and cruel and the vicious way people were killed for one word, heresy. Even today people are not killed but are told they are not saved and cannot be saved.
I agree that the beginning is the beginning of creation before anything was. I do not know how to reply to you because you have said before and, in this post, that not believing in a triune God is heretical which comes from strong orthodox teaching, and I do not believe anything can go above the salvation in the doctrine of Christ.
So out of love, I will not ask but one question that you or someone else may shine a light on.
The word Godhead is in the bible only three times, Acts 17:29 the Greek word Theios, definition divine, divine being Romans 1:20 the Greek word theiots meaning divine nature and Colossians 2:9 the Greek word theots meaning deity.
How can three Greek words with meanings; divine, divine being, divine nature, and deity that in context work with their original meaning be translated as Godhead? What I have studied the first known use of godhead was in the 13th century. Maybe you are someone else who can help?
If MAN had translated the Greek word GODHEAD as Diety or Divine, there would't be such a great conflict of beliefs.
Ephesians 4:4 ONE SPIRIT (the Father of all) .....ONE BODY (man, Christ being the Firstborn of creation) ....
Ephesians 4:6 ONE GOD .....and Father of ALL ....
John 17:21 That they ALL may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in ME (Christ is the body of the Father), and I in Thee, that THEY (WE, the body of Christ) may BE ONE IN US .....
Not three, BUT an EXPANDING FAMILY of GOD: Psalms 82:6
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto to HIM (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto HIM (God, his Father) that put all things under HIM (Christ), that GOD (the Father of all) may be ALL (GOD) in ALL (men, God's BODY).
Dear Ronald, I have had an orthodox upbringing, as you have said. I do not think that is a negative thing. God chose that for me when he chose me to be brought up in the family and to the parents I was born into. I think it is fine if one is brought up this way or if someone is not. It is God's choice.
I have never said that one holding a heretical view is not saved or that they should be killed.
I find it a clever run-around when someone doesn't really like a word used in the KJV Bible to bring out the Greek word or meaning for that word. I thought that many people on this site believe that the KJV accurately translated the original Greek for us?
In this instance, It seems that you do not like the word Godhead, so you do the "run-around" to the Greek to discount the common meaning of this word.
For me, I do believe that the Bible is correctly translated and we can trust the plain meaning of what is recorded for us to read in our own language.
As to your inquiry, I do not have the knowledge to contribute an explanation. But I am interested to see what others say.
I did not mean any disrespect about the orthodox teaching, and it winds up I did the opposite to what I intended. I read your posts and I knew My understanding on this subject is different from what I have read of your posts. I knew we would not agree, I did not want to do what it seems like I have done.
I'm sure you would not want anyone killed. I was referring to what was done in the past. I did not mean to imply you would say one is not saved but I have been told that before.
I believe in the KJV it is the only bible I read, and I believe it is the most accurate translation, but like anything it is not perfect and going back to the original text and language helps understanding, that's my opinion which is also not perfect. The Question on the word Godhead was an honest question, I'm sure there is a reason for this translation, but I do not know it. It just stans out.
Again, GiGi I have all the respect for you and the good you do on this site, and I did not mean to cause you any hard feelings.
Thank you for participating in this interesting and important conversation with Adam.
I just want to enter the conversation here and address what you said about "in the beginning". This was not speaking of God having a beginning (He didn't. He is eternal and everlasting and ever-existing). Nor does it speak of the beginning for the Word, the Son of God, (Jesus). (He always exists as one of the persons of the Godhead.)
It is speaking of the very beginning of creation. When only the Triune Godhead existed eternally, nothing else existed until the Godhead chose to create everything else that is and has existed. This "everything" does not include God (Elohim) which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the One Godhead existed forever outside of time and space. When the Godhead created everything, this included all spiritual beings and realms and all material creatures and the physical realm (all that is made of matter, all of the energy and powers that affect the physical realm (time, gravity, + and - charges in atoms, sound waves, radio waves, magnetism-for example.) These things were created (made from no pre-existing materials), made (made of the materials God created), and formed (as with man, from materials that God had created). Jesus is not one of these creations nor was He made in the beginning. That has long been considered heretical teaching. When the Word, became flesh, the second Person of the Godhead God took upon Himself humanity with all of its aspects, body, soul, spirit. The Father (the first person of the Godhead) created the DNA to join with Mary's ova to conceive this humanity that from that moment of conception on united the second person of the Godhead (the Word) with humanity. That is why the church has taught through the centuries that (the Word who is God ( John 1:1) always existed and is always God, but this union of the Word who is God and humanity in Jesus did have a beginning at conception.
I appreciate your respectul remarks and am ok with continuing to dialog as long as that remains.
I can offer a challenge to few of your points in your last comment.
1. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning.
It sounds like you are using this as evidence to support your view. I don't view it that way at all. First, this says "in the beginning" not "in God's beginning" or "in the Word's beginning". So, this phrase doesn't suggest any limitation on God whatsoever, but is just marking for us in our own human terms that Jesus was always there.
Do you remember Jesus saying this: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." That doesn't mean He's limited, but the opposite, it means He spans everything! Revelation 22:13 - notice the words in red that Jesus said that.
It also says this in Revelation 1:8, notice it says "says the Lord". Lord is Greek word kurios which is supreme authority or God. Some translations say "says the Lord God" and is the same meaning. This is Jesus speaking about Himself, it too is in red.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." - notice this is the same claim Jesus made in Revelation. If there's only one and only one who makes that claim then it seems logical that the claim in both the New and Old Testament are from the same being.
Revelation 11:17 - This uses the same word Lord (kurios) of which Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9) and uses the word theos (God) with it, so it calls Jesus "Lord God." Do you agree? How do you feel about this verse?
Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." So, it says Jesus is Lord and our savior in the New Testament and there's no other Lord. Here in the OT it also says the Lord is the savior and no one else. That is all in alignment with John 10:30. Yes?
John 10:30 Jesus also said John 17:11,22 we are also supposed to be one body in Christ, and every one members one of another, Rom. 12:5. John 8:19 Jesus came and everything He did and said was out of obedience to the Father and of the Father, so it was the closest thing to God man could see what and who God is, as Jesus said John 5:19John 8:28-29. Would God say that to Himself? We are told to honor the Son as the Father, and if not John 5:23, because everything was delivered unto Jesus of His Father Matt. 11:27.
The Son was before everything, God sent His Son and gave him power over all flesh, God sent His Son that the world would know the only true God and Jesus who God sent, and Jesus finished the work that God sent Him to do. Jesus said God sent Him Matt: 10:40 Mark 9:37Luke 4:18Luke 9:48Luke 10:16John 4:34 and 30 more times.
If we say Jesus is God, do we make John 3:16 to be false?
If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the doctrine of Christ, the Father and the Son? 2 Timothy 2:11-122 John 1:91 John 2:22
If Jesus is God, would He say Matt. 27:46Mark 15:34John 20:17 Rev.3:12
If Jesus is God, would there be any need for a mediator? 1 Tim. 2:5
The doctrine says all three are equal, does scripture agree? God the Father, John 14:28 Jesus, His obedience through scripture and 1 Cor 15:27-28, the Holy Spirit, John 16:13-15. God the Father sent the son and sent the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.
I will stop here, and I hope this is taken in love as my understanding.
I'm not able to follow your thought process on all your points, but some. I think most of your points fall within the same logic/belief that Jesus prayed and referred to the Father as "God" and even prayed to "God" therefore how can Jesus be God and pray to Himself? Am I understanding your position accurately? If so, I think most of your "If Jesus is God..." arguments seem to fall within this one overall assumption.
The thing missing from this assumption is that Jesus is not in His normal state. He became a man to go to earth to live as us and to die for our sins. John 1. Yes, Jesus prayed to God the Father. I believe He limited His power to a degree to live on Earth like us. I think He could have exercised His power, but chose not to. Example: Matthew 26:53.
Philippians 2:6 - this says Jesus is equal to God. Verse 7-8 says he humbled Himself as a servant as a man. v9-11 then Jesus was exalted, that every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, name above all other names.
If you believe the Bible when it says that says Jesus created all things ( John 1:3 ), is equal to God ( phil 2:6), is one with God ( John 10:30), is God ( John 1:1), has a name above all other names ( Phil 2:9-11), should be baptized in His name ( Matthew 28:19) then is it such a stretch to believe that's true?
Simply believing what the Bible says is not a 'doctrine' as some claim, but those believing things the Bible doesn't say is definitely a human doctrine.
I get that people have a hard time comprehending that God is plural and how exactly that words out. We will find out in the end. But just because people don't understand 1 John 5:7 doesn't mean it's not true. Truth is true regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.
John 8:58 - What do you think Jesus meant when he said "I am"?
Exodus 3:14 - What do you think of God saying "I am"?
John 5:23 - strong warning to anyone who dishonors Jesus.
I can say and I believe you as well, we believe God has no beginning or no end. In John 1:1 it starts with in the beginning, why? Does it mean Jesus the Son of God has been God from eternity or is that an assumption? Scripture tells us Jesus the Amen is the beginning of creation, Rev. 3:14.
Scripture tells us Jesus in whom we have redemption through His blood and forgiveness of our sins and is the image of the invisible God (the manifestation of God). Jesus is the firstborn of every creature and through Him, everything that is was created through and for Him Col. 1:12-17.
It also says the Father made us meet/qualify of the inheritance and says He, Jesus was before "all in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things". Does that say He was eternal with the Father or does scripture tell us He was the firstborn of every creature/all creation in the beginning?
By this Jesus can say "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, He, Jesus was first of all and He will be the last and the ending of this creation when the mystery of God should be finished and the new heaven and the new earth (the new creation perfect without spot).
Jesus the Son of God was the beginning, He is the only begotten Son of God. Does scripture honestly tell how He was begotten? Can we only say God ordained it before the world? Jesus said in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. With our human minds can we have any clue to what that glory is?
Your first point about "In the beginning" is the 2nd time you brought that up and I already responded to it- did you see it? Just scroll up. Not only that, GiGi also responded to you on that exact point too, but you still brought that false assumption up as 'evidence' against Jesus being God even after it was explained?
The next couple paragraphs seems hard to follow on how this relates to my previous comment.
The end of your comment I see you did respond not to the "I AM" question but to the "First/Last, Beginning/End" part. I see you are somehow viewing this as confirmation that Jesus has limits. This is strange to me, because this exact phrase means he does NOT have limits, that He spans all existence. What was significant about this is God in the Old Testament says this AND Jesus says it in the New Testament. And "I AM" was spoken by God in the Old Testament AND by Jesus in the New Testament. Do you understand the significance of this?
Finally, I can tell that your use of the word "begotten" is not the real meaning of that word. That word means "only". Jesus is God the Father's *only* son. See the Greek word here: Link
Some have misinterpreted this word, hopefully not intentionally, to make it seem as though Jesus was "created." But not only does that word not mean that, but the Bible already debunked this in advance, as if they even predicted people might one say start saying stuff like this.
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This means all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus, nothing else was made. In verses 1-2 before it, it clearly says Jesus was always there, and so was God the Father. Both of them together. This debunks the idea that God the Father created Jesus.
There is a mountain of Bible verses saying Jesus is God and not one that says the opposite. Even Jesus's name Immanuel is "God with us."
The word Elohim is plural, but the verb created is singular and if to support the triune God it should read Gods and there are not three Gods. That would be for another topic.
John 8:58 I am, I exist or existed before Abraham. Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM if I remember, I will be what I will be, it is also close to God's name YHWH. I don't see tying these two together.
From our conversation which I have enjoyed, I do not see an agreement. The one thing about this doctrine, statement of faith whatever you call it I feel is wrong it has been placed above salvation that is in Jesus Christ only. If one does not believe it, it is heresy, you may feel it is. I have been told in more than one church. I hear the word used on this site. And there is not one scripture that says it, nor was it taught by any of the apostles.
In my opinion, it has been made law and it is like Acts 15 You must be circumcised to be saved. Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and God the Father has placed Him above all, and Jesus will reign until all enemies are put under His feet.
God the Father has turned all control to His Son that is what we see in Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Which is all-powerful, supreme, absolute, unlimited, invincible, until He turns it back over to the Father, Cor.15:25-28 Rev. 20:14
I honor the Son for what He gave up, lived in this flesh, what He suffered, and the blood He shed, was nailed to that cross. He was put in a tomb and three days later God the Father raised Him from the dead giving us the only chance of salvation and eternal life and nothing can be placed above that.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hello Ronald. If I might add my understanding to some of the Scriptural references you gave.
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.
I think your doctrine of not believing in Jesus's divinity requires a few hoops to jump through:
1. Not take John 1:1 literally that says Jesus (Word) is God
2. Ignore that God is plural 'we' and 'us' in Genesis
3. Assume that Jesus's behavior as a temporary man with limited power automatically means that that is how He normally is
4. Misinterpret the word "begotten"
5. Ignore the words Godhead and claim its a bad translation
6. Ignore that Jesus's name Immanuel means 'God with us'
7. Ignore 1 John 5:7-8 that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one, and try to dilute the word 'one' to make it seem insignificant.
8. Ignore John 1:3 that Jesus has always been and made everything and claim that Jesus was created later
9. Ignore that Jesus is the same I AM in the NT as the I AM in the OT
10. Ignore that Jesus is the same First/Last, Beginning/End in the NT as the same from God in the OT.
There's much more, but I'll stop at 10. I'm also not 100% sure you even read my last 2 replies so I don't want to spent energy on something you may not even read. There's an enormous about of verses supporting that Jesus is God and nothing clearly saying the opposite. For example if you found a verse that says 'Jesus is NOT God', then you would then only begin to your cause to counter the Bible already saying Jesus IS God in John 1:1, but we don't even have that.
With all the scriptural evidence here, is it possible you have any vested interest to prove that Jesus isn't God for another reason? If you read enough verses supporting that Jesus IS God, is that something you might reconsider someday or do you feel content with your current belief?
Do you believe Jesus is truly Lord like it says in Romans 10:9?
Hi Ronald , I hope you don't mind me interjecting . I have always believed that in John Ch 8 V 58 , that Jesus was saying to those who boasted that Abraham was their father , that God , Jesus's Father , was before Abraham . I think that the 'I am ' in this instance is referring to Y H W H . Put simply , I believe that Jesus is saying to the Jews , my Father is older than yours . I could of course be wrong .
So I see here that Jesus was spoken into existence , that's past tense .
God is . Jesus is never said in all scriptures " Jesus is God " let's please see the verse . God said I am God how many times ? 1000 or more ! Jesus never said it . So what's hard to understand that Jesus is the Son of God ? That's his only claim . Peace to the truth ! Amen .
Adam has given you several great pieces of scripture to support the claim that Jesus is indeed God.
It is true that the bible does not say "Jesus is God" in those exact words, but it also does not say (in your words) that "Jesus was spoken into existence." Jesus was not spoken into existence. To believe that, we would also have to deny His deity.
You ask, "So what's hard to understand that Jesus is the Son of God?"
It's not hard to understand. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. But what does the phrase "Son of God" mean? What did it mean to the Jews? If Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, was He wrong for doing so? Obviously to the Jews, Jesus was claiming to be God Himself. For that claim, they accused Him of blasphemy and the penalty according to Leviticus 24:16 was death.
Did Jesus ever claim to be God? John 10:30-33 would indicate so. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." Notice who He's saying this to? The Jews! In Verse 31, it says they took up stones to kill Him. So what was wrong with Jesus' claim? Why would the Jews want to kill Him for saying that?
The answer is in John 10:33. They wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God. To them He committed blasphemy by making Himself God. They took up stones to kill Jesus for saying "I and my Father are one." Notice that Jesus didn't say "Wait a minute guys, before you stone me, I think you are misunderstanding what I said, so let's talk about this?" Jesus did not correct them because what they said "thou, being a man, makest thyself God," is exactly what Jesus meant.
In Matthew 16:16, Peter gives the correct response to who Jesus is; "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Peter was a Jew, and he knew exactly what he was saying when he said Jesus was the Son of the living God. To a Jew, the phrase "Son of God," or "Son of the living God" is the same as calling someone God Himself, and that's exactly what Peter said in his response to the question Jesus asked.
Jesse I see all these inputs I have one question if Jesus was God the exact same entity then why did the devil and any devil spirits that he cast out call him son of the most high and even the devil in the temptations called him son of God. Who knows
better who you are then your arch enemy who by the way knew the scripture and at one time was Lucifer Gods right hand angel.
It's an honest observation also in the very end in revelation he will hand over all power back to the Father of all God Almighty.
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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Who is the Word?
John 1:14-15 says the Word is Jesus. Does anyone deny that the Word is Jesus?
If someone believes John 1:14, then do they believe John 1:1
"...the Word was God."
"...[Jesus] was God."
JESUS.
WAS.
GOD.
John 1:1
This is God's Word.
Some here are saying "Jesus was NOT God" despite John 1:1 clearly saying Jesus WAS God. I'd like to know exactly how someone can believe in all other verses of the Bible except this one? If something WAS something, that seems to offer little room for interpretation. It means it's the same, does it not? So, if something WAS something, how does someone twist this into believing it says something WAS NOT something?
It then must be asked: since it takes so much effort to take a sentence something WAS something to turn it into: something WAS NOT something, what is the true underlying motive here? Does God's Word carry the most weight and influence or does something else?
This is eerily similar to Gen 3:4 where satan denied what God said and claimed that they shall NOT surely die. Satan loves opposites and this seems to have his signature, does it not?
I welcome any perspective I'm missing, but do not consider anything other Bible verses as valid evidence. God's Word is all that matters and because there's already numerous verses supporting that Jesus is God like John 1:1 then that is what is true. Lastly, why not just pray and ask God directly to know the truth? Genuinely ask!
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7
(plural "us")
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
I loved this site. it is like family and when you do not have one it is a good place to come. I guess I thought this subject could be discussed but seems like I was wrong. I have never denied the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. In my posts I never said the Son of God was created, I said begotten, and we do not know how He was begotten.
Jesus was the beginning of creation Alpha, the beginning He was begotten before anything in the entire creation, nothing was before the Son of God. He was already begotten when God sent and gave Him. He was not begotten in Marys' womb, because everything through Him was created. I feel I listed scripture for everything I said and never was trying to be sneaky or tried to prove anything not true.
I have always treated everyone with love and have always said it is my understanding and have never been dogmatic on any subject. I have never judged and told anyone they were wrong or have I ever belittled anyone. The response I have received is baseless and hurtful.
I am sorry my posts were misunderstood, but as I said they are my understanding and I stand by salvation is only in/through Jesus by the grace of God and through the faith of Jesus is salvation and eternal life and nothing can be placed above that.
Jesus was the beginning of creation and Jesus the Son of God will end this creation in the heavens and the earth when He turns it back to the Father and God makes all new. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.
God bless you all,
RLW
Part 1
I would like to say I do not deny the divinity of the Son of God our Lord and savior.
I know your passion on this subject, and I respect it. This is my understanding and I say this in love and caring because God has blessed this site where it can be discussed where most places it is closed. The doctrine that is at the base of this discussion has risen higher than the scripture for us to attain salvation, only granted to those who accept by faith God's conditions of repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus.
In many to most churches it is at the top of their statement of faith, and you will here, if a person claims to be a Christian but does not believe in this doctrine, he or she is not saved, many even call that person a heretic or a cultist. Is there any scripture that tells us we must believe this doctrine for salvation? Who gave them the authority over scripture?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature Col. 1:15 and the beginning of creation, Rev. 3:14. Jesus manifested God unto men as we see in John 17:1-7. Jesus did not have before He was given, He was given by God the Father, all things, John 3:35, life, John 5:26, judgment, John 5:27, works, John 5:36 all power, Matt 28:18.
John 1:1 Jesus is the word, every word Jesus said was of God and from God the Father, the word of God became flesh not God. God sent the word, Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) What Jesus said was not of Himself but the Father, John 12:49. Question; is a word a word until it is spoken? Like creation God spoke and it was.
See part 2
Thanks for explaining your position.
Your comment stood out to me: "Jesus is the word, every word Jesus said was of God and from God the Father, the word of God became flesh not God. "
What's interesting is that John 1:1 does not say what you wrote. You acknowledge that Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14, ok so we agree on that aside from your use of a lowercase word instead of Word. The name Word is a proper title, similar to many other names of Jesus has been given.
1. After you used lowercase to describe Jesus instead of Word you then slipped in "word" but as a different meaning but to also create distance between God and Jesus.
That is surprising, because John 1:1 literally says "the Word was God."
Bible: "Word was God."
You: "every word Jesus said was of God."
That seems sneaky to me. That's not what that verse says. I have been in prayer about this and I encourage you to do the same. Surely God will honor those who seek Him with wisdom and understanding about who He is, do you agree?
There's no verse in the Bible that says Jesus isn't God. All the scripture supports that He is part of a triune God and is the Son. Yes, the Father is also called God and I see how people latch onto that. And I see how people don't want to understand that God can sometimes mean God the Father and can sometimes mean a triune God. But if someone believes there's no trinity and that Jesus isn't part of the Godhead as scriptures say, then how else do people explain the verses where God refers to itself as "we" and "us" and how Jesus created everything John 1:3. It says the 3 are 1 in 1 John 5:7. It doesn't say the part of the Godhead is everyone, or Paul, or Peter, or Samson or you. No, there's only 3 and it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost just like it says.
One last comment for now:
"The doctrine says all three are equal, does scripture agree?"
The Bible doesn't say their roles are equal. What doctrine are you talking about?
I was not trying to be sneaky with the lower-case w, that comes from two-finger typing. I understand we will not agree and as long as we can discuss it in love that is ok. It should have been Jesus is the Word, every word Jesus said was of God, and from God the Father, the Word of God became flesh, not God. God sent the Word.
If you will note John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning. One other correction, I should have said the Word, the Son of God became flesh. My understanding.
John 1:3 all things were made by Him, the word translated by here is dia which means through, on account of, because of. We see this again in Eph. 3:9 if you look it up it says God created, and in Col. 1:16 the word dia same meaning through. God created all through Jesus His only begotten Son/Word, Jesus. Same as our salvation and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, from all eternity, these three are the same in substance, equal in power and glory. All three persons of the Trinity are equally God.
If this is incorrect, please forgive me for this is what I have been told and have seen. I am sure there is more, but I am not sure, please correct me if I am wrong but this I what have been told in many churches I have been to, I must believe to be saved.
I know we may not agree, and I thank you for discussing it with me.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
In Matthew 1:20-21 we have the account of the angel of the Lord appearing to Joseph in a dream telling him that Mary will become pregnant by the Holy Spirit and the child will be called Jesus (Jesus means YHWH is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.
And goes on to say in vs 22-23 that this event will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14
"Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This verse says that Jesus is YHWH and that He is Immanuel (God with us). So, for me, I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God comprising a Godhead of three distinct Persons in one Godhead.
I enjoy reading your posts, you wear your heart on your sleeve, a good thing. I know you are passionate about the triune God we disagree but please take my reply as done in love. I don't know if you have gone back and dug deep into the history of this creed, you may.
How many people (1000s) who most likely believed in Christ were killed on behalf of this creed. I strain to understand how God would be behind something so harsh and cruel and the vicious way people were killed for one word, heresy. Even today people are not killed but are told they are not saved and cannot be saved.
I agree that the beginning is the beginning of creation before anything was. I do not know how to reply to you because you have said before and, in this post, that not believing in a triune God is heretical which comes from strong orthodox teaching, and I do not believe anything can go above the salvation in the doctrine of Christ.
So out of love, I will not ask but one question that you or someone else may shine a light on.
The word Godhead is in the bible only three times, Acts 17:29 the Greek word Theios, definition divine, divine being Romans 1:20 the Greek word theiots meaning divine nature and Colossians 2:9 the Greek word theots meaning deity.
How can three Greek words with meanings; divine, divine being, divine nature, and deity that in context work with their original meaning be translated as Godhead? What I have studied the first known use of godhead was in the 13th century. Maybe you are someone else who can help?
God bless,
RLW
You are correct.
If MAN had translated the Greek word GODHEAD as Diety or Divine, there would't be such a great conflict of beliefs.
Ephesians 4:4 ONE SPIRIT (the Father of all) .....ONE BODY (man, Christ being the Firstborn of creation) ....
Ephesians 4:6 ONE GOD .....and Father of ALL ....
John 17:21 That they ALL may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in ME (Christ is the body of the Father), and I in Thee, that THEY (WE, the body of Christ) may BE ONE IN US .....
Not three, BUT an EXPANDING FAMILY of GOD: Psalms 82:6
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto to HIM (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto HIM (God, his Father) that put all things under HIM (Christ), that GOD (the Father of all) may be ALL (GOD) in ALL (men, God's BODY).
God Bless YOU.
I have never said that one holding a heretical view is not saved or that they should be killed.
I find it a clever run-around when someone doesn't really like a word used in the KJV Bible to bring out the Greek word or meaning for that word. I thought that many people on this site believe that the KJV accurately translated the original Greek for us?
In this instance, It seems that you do not like the word Godhead, so you do the "run-around" to the Greek to discount the common meaning of this word.
For me, I do believe that the Bible is correctly translated and we can trust the plain meaning of what is recorded for us to read in our own language.
As to your inquiry, I do not have the knowledge to contribute an explanation. But I am interested to see what others say.
I did not mean any disrespect about the orthodox teaching, and it winds up I did the opposite to what I intended. I read your posts and I knew My understanding on this subject is different from what I have read of your posts. I knew we would not agree, I did not want to do what it seems like I have done.
I'm sure you would not want anyone killed. I was referring to what was done in the past. I did not mean to imply you would say one is not saved but I have been told that before.
I believe in the KJV it is the only bible I read, and I believe it is the most accurate translation, but like anything it is not perfect and going back to the original text and language helps understanding, that's my opinion which is also not perfect. The Question on the word Godhead was an honest question, I'm sure there is a reason for this translation, but I do not know it. It just stans out.
Again, GiGi I have all the respect for you and the good you do on this site, and I did not mean to cause you any hard feelings.
God bless,
RLW
I am not offended at all by what you wrote to me in your post. I am not that over sensitive. So, not need to apologize. Your good!
Have a good evening.
Thank you for participating in this interesting and important conversation with Adam.
I just want to enter the conversation here and address what you said about "in the beginning". This was not speaking of God having a beginning (He didn't. He is eternal and everlasting and ever-existing). Nor does it speak of the beginning for the Word, the Son of God, (Jesus). (He always exists as one of the persons of the Godhead.)
It is speaking of the very beginning of creation. When only the Triune Godhead existed eternally, nothing else existed until the Godhead chose to create everything else that is and has existed. This "everything" does not include God (Elohim) which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the One Godhead existed forever outside of time and space. When the Godhead created everything, this included all spiritual beings and realms and all material creatures and the physical realm (all that is made of matter, all of the energy and powers that affect the physical realm (time, gravity, + and - charges in atoms, sound waves, radio waves, magnetism-for example.) These things were created (made from no pre-existing materials), made (made of the materials God created), and formed (as with man, from materials that God had created). Jesus is not one of these creations nor was He made in the beginning. That has long been considered heretical teaching. When the Word, became flesh, the second Person of the Godhead God took upon Himself humanity with all of its aspects, body, soul, spirit. The Father (the first person of the Godhead) created the DNA to join with Mary's ova to conceive this humanity that from that moment of conception on united the second person of the Godhead (the Word) with humanity. That is why the church has taught through the centuries that (the Word who is God ( John 1:1) always existed and is always God, but this union of the Word who is God and humanity in Jesus did have a beginning at conception.
continued
I appreciate your respectul remarks and am ok with continuing to dialog as long as that remains.
I can offer a challenge to few of your points in your last comment.
1. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning.
It sounds like you are using this as evidence to support your view. I don't view it that way at all. First, this says "in the beginning" not "in God's beginning" or "in the Word's beginning". So, this phrase doesn't suggest any limitation on God whatsoever, but is just marking for us in our own human terms that Jesus was always there.
Do you remember Jesus saying this: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." That doesn't mean He's limited, but the opposite, it means He spans everything! Revelation 22:13 - notice the words in red that Jesus said that.
It also says this in Revelation 1:8, notice it says "says the Lord". Lord is Greek word kurios which is supreme authority or God. Some translations say "says the Lord God" and is the same meaning. This is Jesus speaking about Himself, it too is in red.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." - notice this is the same claim Jesus made in Revelation. If there's only one and only one who makes that claim then it seems logical that the claim in both the New and Old Testament are from the same being.
Revelation 11:17 - This uses the same word Lord (kurios) of which Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9) and uses the word theos (God) with it, so it calls Jesus "Lord God." Do you agree? How do you feel about this verse?
Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." So, it says Jesus is Lord and our savior in the New Testament and there's no other Lord. Here in the OT it also says the Lord is the savior and no one else. That is all in alignment with John 10:30. Yes?
John 5:23 - we must honor Jesus.
Part 2
John 10:30 Jesus also said John 17:11,22 we are also supposed to be one body in Christ, and every one members one of another, Rom. 12:5. John 8:19 Jesus came and everything He did and said was out of obedience to the Father and of the Father, so it was the closest thing to God man could see what and who God is, as Jesus said John 5:19 John 8:28-29. Would God say that to Himself? We are told to honor the Son as the Father, and if not John 5:23, because everything was delivered unto Jesus of His Father Matt. 11:27.
The Son was before everything, God sent His Son and gave him power over all flesh, God sent His Son that the world would know the only true God and Jesus who God sent, and Jesus finished the work that God sent Him to do. Jesus said God sent Him Matt: 10:40 Mark 9:37 Luke 4:18 Luke 9:48 Luke 10:16 John 4:34 and 30 more times.
If we say Jesus is God, do we make John 3:16 to be false?
If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the doctrine of Christ, the Father and the Son? 2 Timothy 2:11-12 2 John 1:9 1 John 2:22
If Jesus is God, would He say Matt. 27:46 Mark 15:34 John 20:17 Rev.3:12
If Jesus is God, would there be any need for a mediator? 1 Tim. 2:5
The doctrine says all three are equal, does scripture agree? God the Father, John 14:28 Jesus, His obedience through scripture and 1 Cor 15:27-28, the Holy Spirit, John 16:13-15. God the Father sent the son and sent the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.
I will stop here, and I hope this is taken in love as my understanding.
God Bless
RLW
I'm not able to follow your thought process on all your points, but some. I think most of your points fall within the same logic/belief that Jesus prayed and referred to the Father as "God" and even prayed to "God" therefore how can Jesus be God and pray to Himself? Am I understanding your position accurately? If so, I think most of your "If Jesus is God..." arguments seem to fall within this one overall assumption.
The thing missing from this assumption is that Jesus is not in His normal state. He became a man to go to earth to live as us and to die for our sins. John 1. Yes, Jesus prayed to God the Father. I believe He limited His power to a degree to live on Earth like us. I think He could have exercised His power, but chose not to. Example: Matthew 26:53.
Philippians 2:6 - this says Jesus is equal to God. Verse 7-8 says he humbled Himself as a servant as a man. v9-11 then Jesus was exalted, that every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, name above all other names.
If you believe the Bible when it says that says Jesus created all things ( John 1:3 ), is equal to God ( phil 2:6), is one with God ( John 10:30), is God ( John 1:1), has a name above all other names ( Phil 2:9-11), should be baptized in His name ( Matthew 28:19) then is it such a stretch to believe that's true?
Simply believing what the Bible says is not a 'doctrine' as some claim, but those believing things the Bible doesn't say is definitely a human doctrine.
I get that people have a hard time comprehending that God is plural and how exactly that words out. We will find out in the end. But just because people don't understand 1 John 5:7 doesn't mean it's not true. Truth is true regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.
John 8:58 - What do you think Jesus meant when he said "I am"?
Exodus 3:14 - What do you think of God saying "I am"?
John 5:23 - strong warning to anyone who dishonors Jesus.
God bless.
Part 1
I can say and I believe you as well, we believe God has no beginning or no end. In John 1:1 it starts with in the beginning, why? Does it mean Jesus the Son of God has been God from eternity or is that an assumption? Scripture tells us Jesus the Amen is the beginning of creation, Rev. 3:14.
Scripture tells us Jesus in whom we have redemption through His blood and forgiveness of our sins and is the image of the invisible God (the manifestation of God). Jesus is the firstborn of every creature and through Him, everything that is was created through and for Him Col. 1:12-17.
It also says the Father made us meet/qualify of the inheritance and says He, Jesus was before "all in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things". Does that say He was eternal with the Father or does scripture tell us He was the firstborn of every creature/all creation in the beginning?
By this Jesus can say "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, He, Jesus was first of all and He will be the last and the ending of this creation when the mystery of God should be finished and the new heaven and the new earth (the new creation perfect without spot).
Jesus the Son of God was the beginning, He is the only begotten Son of God. Does scripture honestly tell how He was begotten? Can we only say God ordained it before the world? Jesus said in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. With our human minds can we have any clue to what that glory is?
See part 2,
Your first point about "In the beginning" is the 2nd time you brought that up and I already responded to it- did you see it? Just scroll up. Not only that, GiGi also responded to you on that exact point too, but you still brought that false assumption up as 'evidence' against Jesus being God even after it was explained?
The next couple paragraphs seems hard to follow on how this relates to my previous comment.
The end of your comment I see you did respond not to the "I AM" question but to the "First/Last, Beginning/End" part. I see you are somehow viewing this as confirmation that Jesus has limits. This is strange to me, because this exact phrase means he does NOT have limits, that He spans all existence. What was significant about this is God in the Old Testament says this AND Jesus says it in the New Testament. And "I AM" was spoken by God in the Old Testament AND by Jesus in the New Testament. Do you understand the significance of this?
Finally, I can tell that your use of the word "begotten" is not the real meaning of that word. That word means "only". Jesus is God the Father's *only* son. See the Greek word here: Link
Some have misinterpreted this word, hopefully not intentionally, to make it seem as though Jesus was "created." But not only does that word not mean that, but the Bible already debunked this in advance, as if they even predicted people might one say start saying stuff like this.
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This means all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus, nothing else was made. In verses 1-2 before it, it clearly says Jesus was always there, and so was God the Father. Both of them together. This debunks the idea that God the Father created Jesus.
There is a mountain of Bible verses saying Jesus is God and not one that says the opposite. Even Jesus's name Immanuel is "God with us."
part 2
The word Elohim is plural, but the verb created is singular and if to support the triune God it should read Gods and there are not three Gods. That would be for another topic.
John 8:58 I am, I exist or existed before Abraham. Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM if I remember, I will be what I will be, it is also close to God's name YHWH. I don't see tying these two together.
From our conversation which I have enjoyed, I do not see an agreement. The one thing about this doctrine, statement of faith whatever you call it I feel is wrong it has been placed above salvation that is in Jesus Christ only. If one does not believe it, it is heresy, you may feel it is. I have been told in more than one church. I hear the word used on this site. And there is not one scripture that says it, nor was it taught by any of the apostles.
In my opinion, it has been made law and it is like Acts 15 You must be circumcised to be saved. Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and God the Father has placed Him above all, and Jesus will reign until all enemies are put under His feet.
God the Father has turned all control to His Son that is what we see in Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Which is all-powerful, supreme, absolute, unlimited, invincible, until He turns it back over to the Father, Cor.15:25-28 Rev. 20:14
I honor the Son for what He gave up, lived in this flesh, what He suffered, and the blood He shed, was nailed to that cross. He was put in a tomb and three days later God the Father raised Him from the dead giving us the only chance of salvation and eternal life and nothing can be placed above that.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
God bless,
RLW
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.
I think your doctrine of not believing in Jesus's divinity requires a few hoops to jump through:
1. Not take John 1:1 literally that says Jesus (Word) is God
2. Ignore that God is plural 'we' and 'us' in Genesis
3. Assume that Jesus's behavior as a temporary man with limited power automatically means that that is how He normally is
4. Misinterpret the word "begotten"
5. Ignore the words Godhead and claim its a bad translation
6. Ignore that Jesus's name Immanuel means 'God with us'
7. Ignore 1 John 5:7-8 that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one, and try to dilute the word 'one' to make it seem insignificant.
8. Ignore John 1:3 that Jesus has always been and made everything and claim that Jesus was created later
9. Ignore that Jesus is the same I AM in the NT as the I AM in the OT
10. Ignore that Jesus is the same First/Last, Beginning/End in the NT as the same from God in the OT.
There's much more, but I'll stop at 10. I'm also not 100% sure you even read my last 2 replies so I don't want to spent energy on something you may not even read. There's an enormous about of verses supporting that Jesus is God and nothing clearly saying the opposite. For example if you found a verse that says 'Jesus is NOT God', then you would then only begin to your cause to counter the Bible already saying Jesus IS God in John 1:1, but we don't even have that.
With all the scriptural evidence here, is it possible you have any vested interest to prove that Jesus isn't God for another reason? If you read enough verses supporting that Jesus IS God, is that something you might reconsider someday or do you feel content with your current belief?
Do you believe Jesus is truly Lord like it says in Romans 10:9?
God bless.
which is in the bosom of the father hath made him known or declared who he is. I'm not nit picking just sharing scripture.
The believe started in the time of constantinople with the creed of nicea or nicene credd historically before that time it did
not exist. Anyone can look that up historically. I'm done.
God says he is God . How many times ?
The word was spoken that's past tense .
God is all present that's not past tense .
So I see here that Jesus was spoken into existence , that's past tense .
God is . Jesus is never said in all scriptures " Jesus is God " let's please see the verse . God said I am God how many times ? 1000 or more ! Jesus never said it . So what's hard to understand that Jesus is the Son of God ? That's his only claim . Peace to the truth ! Amen .
Adam has given you several great pieces of scripture to support the claim that Jesus is indeed God.
It is true that the bible does not say "Jesus is God" in those exact words, but it also does not say (in your words) that "Jesus was spoken into existence." Jesus was not spoken into existence. To believe that, we would also have to deny His deity.
You ask, "So what's hard to understand that Jesus is the Son of God?"
It's not hard to understand. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. But what does the phrase "Son of God" mean? What did it mean to the Jews? If Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, was He wrong for doing so? Obviously to the Jews, Jesus was claiming to be God Himself. For that claim, they accused Him of blasphemy and the penalty according to Leviticus 24:16 was death.
Did Jesus ever claim to be God? John 10:30-33 would indicate so. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." Notice who He's saying this to? The Jews! In Verse 31, it says they took up stones to kill Him. So what was wrong with Jesus' claim? Why would the Jews want to kill Him for saying that?
The answer is in John 10:33. They wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God. To them He committed blasphemy by making Himself God. They took up stones to kill Jesus for saying "I and my Father are one." Notice that Jesus didn't say "Wait a minute guys, before you stone me, I think you are misunderstanding what I said, so let's talk about this?" Jesus did not correct them because what they said "thou, being a man, makest thyself God," is exactly what Jesus meant.
In Matthew 16:16, Peter gives the correct response to who Jesus is; "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Peter was a Jew, and he knew exactly what he was saying when he said Jesus was the Son of the living God. To a Jew, the phrase "Son of God," or "Son of the living God" is the same as calling someone God Himself, and that's exactly what Peter said in his response to the question Jesus asked.
better who you are then your arch enemy who by the way knew the scripture and at one time was Lucifer Gods right hand angel.
It's an honest observation also in the very end in revelation he will hand over all power back to the Father of all God Almighty.
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