Words that Paul and Jesus wanted believers to understand and know. Ephesians 1:17 That the God (of) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the (only) true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is (one God), and one mediator between God and men, (the man) Christ Jesus; Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son (of) the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
I put in parenthesis words that can be passed over easily. A lot of the phrases "deity of Christ", "fully God, fully man", "God the Son" I haven't read in the Bible. I might have missed them. If so I would like to know them. I wonder if their is a benefit in adding to the words the Bible uses to describe Jesus Christ.
Hi Doug. All the Scriptures you've given are wonderful & indeed show Jesus Christ in His Humanity. I don't think anyone who believes in the deity of Christ could ever reject or even alter the meaning of those verses to suit some agenda. For so Jesus was: a Man on Earth & a Man in Heaven, now the mediator between God & men. But was He/is He just a Man?
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
Regarding John 17:5 : "Glorify thee with with thine own self" (Self). Creation is an extension of self. In this sense meaning, extend God's whole being (qualities, His Mind) unto Jesus. "which I had with thee before the world was.", meaning Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world. Jesus has nothing that does not come from God. The difference between us and Jesus is that He has nothing else. As I've previously stated, God created Jesus (Christ); Jesus did not create God.This is Their only difference. So, is Jesus God? No, in the sense that He didn't create the Creator. Yes, in the sense that He has everything of/from the Creator (Source) and thinks and responds and speaks ONLY what the Voice for God (Holy Spirit) communicates.
How does this fit into the idea of the Trinity? God Is. God is God, in His Kingdom, where nothing but perfect Love exists. No fear/hate (or even thoughts of fear and hate) can enter. His Kingdom is holy where perfect peace dwells. Nothing changes (no duality). Nothing there within or without can affect it. God's omnipotence can't be usurped. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Voice. Jesus is the Christ, APPEARING as man, our mediator. We need this mediator because without Him the distance between God and man would be too great for us to encompass and overcome. This Trinity is One even though they appear to have different functions. They are One BECAUSE They share a common purpose, and what shares a common purpose is the same.
A good way to describe the Trinity is this: The Trinity in It's oneness transcends the sum of it's parts. I perceive the same concerning the Sonship: God has only One Son. If all His creations are His sons, then everyone must be an integral part of the whole Sonship. And the Sonship in its Oneness transcends the sum of it's parts.
And may I be so bold as to say that God would be incomplete without us (His Creations).
Hi One Eighty. You may care to peruse my comment to Doug (to save repetition). Thank you.
But to certain things you stated. I think you understand the verse "which I had with thee before the world was" to mean that God created Jesus before He created mankind: "Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world."
I can't recall any verse to show that God ever created someone called Jesus. Rather, the Bible tells us there is only One God - there is none beside Him. Yet, we find that within the Person of God there lies Entities (also referred to as Persons) called the Word & the Spirit. We don't have trouble defining & understanding the Spirit, but when the Word is brought up, we struggle & have wildly different opinions. Yet, we have clear Truths given to us, as in Revelation 19:13, that when Jesus returns, He is seen as the One "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." Not only is Jesus seen as the Word of God placed into humanity, but this One Who holds an intrinsic part of God's Person, returns with that same title. Jesus is ever God's Word, but for our sakes, took on humanity for the suffering of death.
So, I don't see anything about a creation of a Jesus - I read that God sent His Word (from within Himself), born into humanity, being called Jesus (Immanuel, 'God with us') & never ceasing to be vitally a part & connected to the Godhead. Jesus is always God's Word, but in the incarnation, God made a material change, taking that spiritual Essence of Himself & clothing Him with flesh (the best I can describe it). You do refer to a Triunity of God, but I would question Jesus being a created Being (Adam was a created being - Jesus was begotten from God), & I agree, Jesus can never be said to be a Creator of God.
Regarding creation of Jesus: I don't recall a scripture either. I'll try to make my thoughts clearer. When we think of human body (flesh) creations, many may think of God's design of the reproductive system. Or with Adam and Eve, we have the Genesis account. Not so with Jesus (Christ). Again, I believe Jesus is an EXTENSION (creation) of God Who is Spirit. Actually, using JUST the word Christ here might be appropriate, because although names (Jesus) have certain meanings, their purpose is for body (flesh) identification.
Jesus is the Word, meaning Truth. Jesus is the Truth. The Spirit is Truth. Jesus(Christ) is Spirit. Why is He? Because His Creator Is. And much more. God's creations are wholly lovable and loving, eternal, holy, full of light, and unchangeable. These descriptions are all one. God is not a body. If God is perfect and eternal, then by definition anything He creates would also have to be perfect and eternal.
Hello again One Eighty. Looking at our comments both now & previous, I think the problem I have is understanding the phrase you use, "I believe Jesus is an EXTENSION (creation) of God Who is Spirit."
I don't use the word 'creation' to refer to Christ's appearance, as that denotes that God created Jesus, as One Who had no previous existence (e.g. Adam & Eve were created, the angels were created, animals, etc. as well). Whereas Jesus was never created as He is the Word incarnate (made flesh); i.e. the Word was always in God's Being & God took His Word and embodied His Word with humanity. The Word, though in human form, never ceased to be vitally connected to God, i.e. the Word was always Divine (holding the Divine Nature), but for the sake of taking upon Himself flesh, for suffering & dying, Jesus made Himself of no reputation ( Philippians 2:6-8): Greek for that is 'ekenosen', emptied Himself of His full Divinity - which He had to of course, to become man with human limitations, aging & death.
You've also said that "Jesus is an EXTENSION of God" & I think I can understand your meaning with this, but I wouldn't use 'creation' for Jesus, because how can a created One also be the Creator & Sustainer of all things ( Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:13-17)? So, I'm unsure whether we're saying the same things & using specific words to describe Jesus' manifestation, or whether we need to discuss further what I've shared about the eternal Nature of Christ Jesus. Blessings.
I have plans beginning tomorrow of being in an area for a few days where I will not have service. May not have time today. But I want to reply. I think we are much closer to agreeing on this topic than we are presently perceiving. With further dialogue and clarifications we will have a better and deeper understanding of what each other's perception is.
Just on this matter about 'Jesus being a creation of God', Brad. We see a couple of phrases used in the Bible: 'firstborn' and 'only begotten'.
'Firstborn' (Gk. prototokos, first to give birth to, firstborn) as seen in Romans 8:29, "the firstborn among many brethren", where Paul applies the meaning to Jesus being the first to bring humanity & divinity into one (i.e. Jesus the Word (God) united with humanity (flesh); and to us who are saved (i.e. humanity (flesh) united with the Spirit (God)).
And also in Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature", referring to Christ's highest rank & full rights bestowed upon Him by the Father over all creation; & that creation came into being by His Word Jesus & through Him, being held together by the Word of His Power (vv16,17 & Hebrews 1:3).
'Only begotten' (Gk. monogenes, unique, one of a kind) as seen in John 3:16, Hebrews 5:5, 1 John 4:9, etc. Could we say that Jesus was a created Being by God, as one would describe a creation of a baby in the womb or a potter creating a vessel from a lump of clay? The use of 'monogenes' strongly suggests that Jesus wasn't created, simply because He already existed within God's Person as the Word of God. But God did something not done before - a unique birth: that which always existed came into the World in another form - Mary's womb was merely the delivery point for prophecy's fulfilment & for Jesus' identification with His people. God could just as well have zapped His Word into flesh & onto Earth, but God had His Own special Plan.
One could use the word 'created' in this respect as you've done, but that might then bring on the thought that Jesus was a created Being without an eternal existence. I feel 'monogenes' satisfies the uniqueness of Jesus' pre- & post-incarnation Presence.
Any one born as a man IS A CREATION OF GOD . Does it get any simpler ? Why do you struggle with this ? Jesus the Christ is a Man . And always will be . There is a man at the right hand of God as I Speak yes or no ?
" the same yesterday ( a beginning) today and forever .
Well Rob, I don't struggle with this as the Scriptures are clear to me. You asked if there was a "man at the right hand of God?" To answer that as you gave it, I would say NO, only because that short statement doesn't reflect Christ's true personality & remains open to confusion & speculation. It only reflects His Humanity, devoid of His eternal existence & the Nature of His Resurrection.
But if you asked, 'is there One called Jesus Christ, who came to Earth from Heaven ( John 3:13; John 6:38), from within the Person of God ( John 1:1-14), to become Man, died, arose from the grave, & now ascended to the right Hand of the Father, ever living as the Word of God made flesh (where Divinity has merged with Humanity) making intercession for His people, & one day returning to Earth in the same state that He left this Earth (as the Word of God: Revelation 19:13)?', then I would say, YES. Any other Jesus is, from my understanding of the Scriptures, to be another Jesus - One assumed maybe from incorrect teaching and/or a bias against the Plan of God to secure our salvation.
If I avoided certain pertinent Scriptures revealing the full Nature of Christ, I could well agree with you. And some of us have shared those Scriptures, but receiving no exposition.
I think the Bible is really simple , but when the light is not on , twists and turns can easily happen , now there are how many versions of doctrines ?
To me God is the father of ALL .
He alone is self existing. He inhabits eternity the Bible says .
I'm certainly no master on the subject and I'm open to His correction , there is so much we don't understand.
But we all should know that there is One GOD .
And Jesus is his Son , sent to be the Christ , by the Love of God for us poor sinners . That have no hope in an evil world .
But we can have hope through Jesus the mediator between God and man . Jesus the Man is mediator , not Jesus God the Son . With out a mans body it would be impossible for God the Son to shed his blood for the remission of sins . Amen ! it's Gods Son Jesus in the flesh and in the flesh he put away sins . A God the son is no savior at all , just a doctrine of twisted scriptures.
Are we not taught to go out and share The Gospel? The purpose being the Holy Spirit speaking through us God's Love, and forgiveness leading towards salvation. In this sense we should be considered as playing a part in it.
In Philippians 2:6-8 :"Who, being in the form of God," (Spirit), "and took upon him the form of a servant,", and "being found in fashion as a man,".
Check out Mark 16:10,12,14. , written in the KJV that He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, He appeared in another form unto two of them, and afterward He appeared unto the eleven.
As you, there's much I don't understand either. Yet I'm perceiving by these passages that Jesus appeared as a man; flesh and blood with a body that functions and bleeds as we all do. Jesus' reality is Spirit, one with God because God is Spirit. God is Love . Love creates Itself and nothing but Itself.
I was trying to find the post you sent to me concerning the passage in Philippians 2. Could you re-ask your question to me and post it so I can respond? Thank you.
Amen. John 1:2-3 debunks the false doctrine of Jesus being "created" and some try to retrofit the word "begotten" word to make it seem like it means that instead of its actual meaning "only". I wonder where this recent movement trying to deny Jesus's divinity originates from, because it seems like a recent attack, perhaps even coordinated.
Thanks Chris for your reply! I agree with the thought that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". I think the difference in beliefs is what happened when the in Word was made flesh. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I believe he was full of "grace and truth". He carried nature of God, but needed the grace of God and had to access it like we do. That is why he prayed, fasted, etc to resist temptation. Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. v 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: I believe he reflected his father at all times. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The following verse to me is interesting indicating that we have been given the glory that God gave him. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: A mystery I have: is when was he considered the begotten Son and when did that happen. Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. These thoughts are not all inclusive, but enough hopefully to clear any misunderstandings.
I appreciate your response, Doug. I see that you do believe that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". But is our difference in understanding lie only in "what happened after the Word was (then) made flesh (i.e. His life in humanity)?" I think there is another important matter to look at before that, i.e. before Jesus was given God's Glory on Earth, where was He before His Coming?
So, this Word that was with God and was God ( John 1:1), was not only the Word uttered by God to create all things (v3), but in God's Wisdom & Plan, He gave His Word flesh (v14) - drawn from the Essence of God into humanity, & the disciples saw that this Glory which reflected from Him was that of the Father's only begotten Son (not first created, 'protokitises', but first born, 'prototokos': in relation to the first 'of its type in creation, of divinity & humanity as one'). At a previous time, someone else translated that verse to be, 'that Jesus then became God's Word' (i.e. Jesus came & then the Word placed into Him; rather than 'the Word came & was made human'). Herein is the problem.
Then when we look at John 17:5, we can see in Jesus' Prayer that He recalls to His Father about the Glory that He had with Him. This glory Jesus had to lay aside for the sake of becoming human ( Philippians 2:5-8). And in John 17:1-5, Jesus speaks to His Father about this Glory: that Jesus was in the throes of completing the Work of the Father, of bringing Glory to Him through it (v4), and now longs for God's Glory (which Jesus once had), to be granted back to Him (v5). Now exactly what this Glory entails, we're not told. But it would certainly reflect His Position within God's Person (seen in the verses cited), the task accomplished on Earth, & the Glory, Power & Victory emanating from the coming resurrection.
And the glory we've received: being in Christ as Christ is in God ( Col 3:3) - not gods, but sharing in all the goodness & vitality of the One Who is now our Father & Jesus our Brother.
Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit all exhibit the uniqueness attributable only to God, even though each is somehow spoken of as separate from God. God is Triune and therefore difficult for humans to understand. Humans also have divisions that are not easily understandable, although not separate entities like the Trinity of God. We have spirits, souls, and bodies, and they 3 are one, as we see in 1 John 5:
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Another reference to the divisions in men is found in Hebrews 4:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Another example can be gleaned from Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Thanks Mark. I agree with what you've written here: that "each (aspect of the Godhead) is somehow spoken of as separate from God", and this I believe is true because that is how the Word of God reveals the Mind & Acts of God in relation to humanity. Yet, God is One & is indivisible into some sort of 'parts of God' - but that God takes from within His Divinity to reveal to men His Love & longing for all to turn from their wicked ways, unto Him alone. He alone does this for our sakes, and we now can love Him because of that Love displayed through His Son. When we see Jesus, to love Him, learn from Him, & long for Him, we do in very Truth see the Father ( John 14:9).
And John 6:37-39 is God's Promise to us: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT. For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
Well stated. All these scriptures have to line up with one another. Meaning they have to make since up against scriptures such as
Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The ( EVERLASTING ) Father, The Prince of Peace.
Also Revelation 1:8.
"I am ( Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,) saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
How does these these verses means anything but eternal? And how does the submitted contrasting scriptures interact with these everlasting verses?
So true brother S. Spencer. When we take in & deeply meditate on all of Scripture, we certainly see a wonderful picture of the Person of God & His Love for all that He has made. It's when we allow our pre-conceived ideas or even the influences of a convincing speaker/author to sway are minds, we then begin to read ALL of God's Word in a defective way - discernment is the key - & that comes with knowledge of His Word.
We're still all learning & subject to the Spirit's influence & guidance, but we would give God & His Word good service, if we give our full consideration to all that He has revealed to us in His Word. Every blessing & I do appreciate your other input to me & others here.
Amen Chris Yes that John 17 : 5 is a very strong scripture to prove without a doubt that Christ is truly God the son and was with God before the world began....
It is interesting to me that John 17:5 would be proof that Jesus was God. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I read it as he needed God to glorify himself. It also indicates that "the glory I had with thee before the world was" changed when the "Word became flesh" so now Jesus is praying that he can return to the former glory. Interesting verse and I appreciate the input others have given. It has given me opportunity to ponder different scriptures.
Yes Doug. That's what that verse states. But to appreciate what Jesus had given up, we find the Apostle Paul iterating what took place: in Philippians 2:5-8, which you know well. Thank you for your input - I have written to the others who have taken time to share their thoughts - you may find something useful in my comments to them.
Thanks David. A similar verse to support your thought is Eph. 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
I put in parenthesis words that can be passed over easily. A lot of the phrases "deity of Christ", "fully God, fully man", "God the Son" I haven't read in the Bible. I might have missed them. If so I would like to know them. I wonder if their is a benefit in adding to the words the Bible uses to describe Jesus Christ.
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
Regarding John 17:5 : "Glorify thee with with thine own self" (Self). Creation is an extension of self. In this sense meaning, extend God's whole being (qualities, His Mind) unto Jesus. "which I had with thee before the world was.", meaning Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world. Jesus has nothing that does not come from God. The difference between us and Jesus is that He has nothing else. As I've previously stated, God created Jesus (Christ); Jesus did not create God.This is Their only difference. So, is Jesus God? No, in the sense that He didn't create the Creator. Yes, in the sense that He has everything of/from the Creator (Source) and thinks and responds and speaks ONLY what the Voice for God (Holy Spirit) communicates.
How does this fit into the idea of the Trinity? God Is. God is God, in His Kingdom, where nothing but perfect Love exists. No fear/hate (or even thoughts of fear and hate) can enter. His Kingdom is holy where perfect peace dwells. Nothing changes (no duality). Nothing there within or without can affect it. God's omnipotence can't be usurped. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Voice. Jesus is the Christ, APPEARING as man, our mediator. We need this mediator because without Him the distance between God and man would be too great for us to encompass and overcome. This Trinity is One even though they appear to have different functions. They are One BECAUSE They share a common purpose, and what shares a common purpose is the same.
A good way to describe the Trinity is this: The Trinity in It's oneness transcends the sum of it's parts. I perceive the same concerning the Sonship: God has only One Son. If all His creations are His sons, then everyone must be an integral part of the whole Sonship. And the Sonship in its Oneness transcends the sum of it's parts.
And may I be so bold as to say that God would be incomplete without us (His Creations).
Peace to all.
God Is
But to certain things you stated. I think you understand the verse "which I had with thee before the world was" to mean that God created Jesus before He created mankind: "Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world."
I can't recall any verse to show that God ever created someone called Jesus. Rather, the Bible tells us there is only One God - there is none beside Him. Yet, we find that within the Person of God there lies Entities (also referred to as Persons) called the Word & the Spirit. We don't have trouble defining & understanding the Spirit, but when the Word is brought up, we struggle & have wildly different opinions. Yet, we have clear Truths given to us, as in Revelation 19:13, that when Jesus returns, He is seen as the One "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." Not only is Jesus seen as the Word of God placed into humanity, but this One Who holds an intrinsic part of God's Person, returns with that same title. Jesus is ever God's Word, but for our sakes, took on humanity for the suffering of death.
So, I don't see anything about a creation of a Jesus - I read that God sent His Word (from within Himself), born into humanity, being called Jesus (Immanuel, 'God with us') & never ceasing to be vitally a part & connected to the Godhead. Jesus is always God's Word, but in the incarnation, God made a material change, taking that spiritual Essence of Himself & clothing Him with flesh (the best I can describe it). You do refer to a Triunity of God, but I would question Jesus being a created Being (Adam was a created being - Jesus was begotten from God), & I agree, Jesus can never be said to be a Creator of God.
Regarding creation of Jesus: I don't recall a scripture either. I'll try to make my thoughts clearer. When we think of human body (flesh) creations, many may think of God's design of the reproductive system. Or with Adam and Eve, we have the Genesis account. Not so with Jesus (Christ). Again, I believe Jesus is an EXTENSION (creation) of God Who is Spirit. Actually, using JUST the word Christ here might be appropriate, because although names (Jesus) have certain meanings, their purpose is for body (flesh) identification.
Jesus is the Word, meaning Truth. Jesus is the Truth. The Spirit is Truth. Jesus(Christ) is Spirit. Why is He? Because His Creator Is. And much more. God's creations are wholly lovable and loving, eternal, holy, full of light, and unchangeable. These descriptions are all one. God is not a body. If God is perfect and eternal, then by definition anything He creates would also have to be perfect and eternal.
Anyways, just some thoughts.
Peace
God Is
I don't use the word 'creation' to refer to Christ's appearance, as that denotes that God created Jesus, as One Who had no previous existence (e.g. Adam & Eve were created, the angels were created, animals, etc. as well). Whereas Jesus was never created as He is the Word incarnate (made flesh); i.e. the Word was always in God's Being & God took His Word and embodied His Word with humanity. The Word, though in human form, never ceased to be vitally connected to God, i.e. the Word was always Divine (holding the Divine Nature), but for the sake of taking upon Himself flesh, for suffering & dying, Jesus made Himself of no reputation ( Philippians 2:6-8): Greek for that is 'ekenosen', emptied Himself of His full Divinity - which He had to of course, to become man with human limitations, aging & death.
You've also said that "Jesus is an EXTENSION of God" & I think I can understand your meaning with this, but I wouldn't use 'creation' for Jesus, because how can a created One also be the Creator & Sustainer of all things ( Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:13-17)? So, I'm unsure whether we're saying the same things & using specific words to describe Jesus' manifestation, or whether we need to discuss further what I've shared about the eternal Nature of Christ Jesus. Blessings.
You are correct; God is not a body; but he exist in a BODY and that BODY is Christ.
Christ exist also in a BODY and that BODY is MANKIND, You and I.
God Bless YOU, his BODY.
I AM, Chris. Baptised into HIS NAME: I AM, Chris, the BODY of Christ.
I have plans beginning tomorrow of being in an area for a few days where I will not have service. May not have time today. But I want to reply. I think we are much closer to agreeing on this topic than we are presently perceiving. With further dialogue and clarifications we will have a better and deeper understanding of what each other's perception is.
Blessings.
God Is
Jesus was made flesh that's a creation by God not Jesus .
The true Jesus was born of Gods Spirit and Mary's flesh . The real created second Adam .
You brought up a good point I just help finished it .
'Firstborn' (Gk. prototokos, first to give birth to, firstborn) as seen in Romans 8:29, "the firstborn among many brethren", where Paul applies the meaning to Jesus being the first to bring humanity & divinity into one (i.e. Jesus the Word (God) united with humanity (flesh); and to us who are saved (i.e. humanity (flesh) united with the Spirit (God)).
And also in Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature", referring to Christ's highest rank & full rights bestowed upon Him by the Father over all creation; & that creation came into being by His Word Jesus & through Him, being held together by the Word of His Power (vv16,17 & Hebrews 1:3).
'Only begotten' (Gk. monogenes, unique, one of a kind) as seen in John 3:16, Hebrews 5:5, 1 John 4:9, etc. Could we say that Jesus was a created Being by God, as one would describe a creation of a baby in the womb or a potter creating a vessel from a lump of clay? The use of 'monogenes' strongly suggests that Jesus wasn't created, simply because He already existed within God's Person as the Word of God. But God did something not done before - a unique birth: that which always existed came into the World in another form - Mary's womb was merely the delivery point for prophecy's fulfilment & for Jesus' identification with His people. God could just as well have zapped His Word into flesh & onto Earth, but God had His Own special Plan.
One could use the word 'created' in this respect as you've done, but that might then bring on the thought that Jesus was a created Being without an eternal existence. I feel 'monogenes' satisfies the uniqueness of Jesus' pre- & post-incarnation Presence.
" the same yesterday ( a beginning) today and forever .
But if you asked, 'is there One called Jesus Christ, who came to Earth from Heaven ( John 3:13; John 6:38), from within the Person of God ( John 1:1-14), to become Man, died, arose from the grave, & now ascended to the right Hand of the Father, ever living as the Word of God made flesh (where Divinity has merged with Humanity) making intercession for His people, & one day returning to Earth in the same state that He left this Earth (as the Word of God: Revelation 19:13)?', then I would say, YES. Any other Jesus is, from my understanding of the Scriptures, to be another Jesus - One assumed maybe from incorrect teaching and/or a bias against the Plan of God to secure our salvation.
If I avoided certain pertinent Scriptures revealing the full Nature of Christ, I could well agree with you. And some of us have shared those Scriptures, but receiving no exposition.
To me God is the father of ALL .
He alone is self existing. He inhabits eternity the Bible says .
I'm certainly no master on the subject and I'm open to His correction , there is so much we don't understand.
But we all should know that there is One GOD .
And Jesus is his Son , sent to be the Christ , by the Love of God for us poor sinners . That have no hope in an evil world .
But we can have hope through Jesus the mediator between God and man . Jesus the Man is mediator , not Jesus God the Son . With out a mans body it would be impossible for God the Son to shed his blood for the remission of sins . Amen ! it's Gods Son Jesus in the flesh and in the flesh he put away sins . A God the son is no savior at all , just a doctrine of twisted scriptures.
Are we not taught to go out and share The Gospel? The purpose being the Holy Spirit speaking through us God's Love, and forgiveness leading towards salvation. In this sense we should be considered as playing a part in it.
In Philippians 2:6-8 :"Who, being in the form of God," (Spirit), "and took upon him the form of a servant,", and "being found in fashion as a man,".
Check out Mark 16:10,12,14. , written in the KJV that He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, He appeared in another form unto two of them, and afterward He appeared unto the eleven.
As you, there's much I don't understand either. Yet I'm perceiving by these passages that Jesus appeared as a man; flesh and blood with a body that functions and bleeds as we all do. Jesus' reality is Spirit, one with God because God is Spirit. God is Love . Love creates Itself and nothing but Itself.
Peace my friend.
God Is
I was trying to find the post you sent to me concerning the passage in Philippians 2. Could you re-ask your question to me and post it so I can respond? Thank you.
So, this Word that was with God and was God ( John 1:1), was not only the Word uttered by God to create all things (v3), but in God's Wisdom & Plan, He gave His Word flesh (v14) - drawn from the Essence of God into humanity, & the disciples saw that this Glory which reflected from Him was that of the Father's only begotten Son (not first created, 'protokitises', but first born, 'prototokos': in relation to the first 'of its type in creation, of divinity & humanity as one'). At a previous time, someone else translated that verse to be, 'that Jesus then became God's Word' (i.e. Jesus came & then the Word placed into Him; rather than 'the Word came & was made human'). Herein is the problem.
Then when we look at John 17:5, we can see in Jesus' Prayer that He recalls to His Father about the Glory that He had with Him. This glory Jesus had to lay aside for the sake of becoming human ( Philippians 2:5-8). And in John 17:1-5, Jesus speaks to His Father about this Glory: that Jesus was in the throes of completing the Work of the Father, of bringing Glory to Him through it (v4), and now longs for God's Glory (which Jesus once had), to be granted back to Him (v5). Now exactly what this Glory entails, we're not told. But it would certainly reflect His Position within God's Person (seen in the verses cited), the task accomplished on Earth, & the Glory, Power & Victory emanating from the coming resurrection.
And the glory we've received: being in Christ as Christ is in God ( Col 3:3) - not gods, but sharing in all the goodness & vitality of the One Who is now our Father & Jesus our Brother.
Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit all exhibit the uniqueness attributable only to God, even though each is somehow spoken of as separate from God. God is Triune and therefore difficult for humans to understand. Humans also have divisions that are not easily understandable, although not separate entities like the Trinity of God. We have spirits, souls, and bodies, and they 3 are one, as we see in 1 John 5:
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Another reference to the divisions in men is found in Hebrews 4:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Another example can be gleaned from Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
And John 6:37-39 is God's Promise to us: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT. For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
Well stated. All these scriptures have to line up with one another. Meaning they have to make since up against scriptures such as
Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The ( EVERLASTING ) Father, The Prince of Peace.
Also Revelation 1:8.
"I am ( Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,) saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
How does these these verses means anything but eternal? And how does the submitted contrasting scriptures interact with these everlasting verses?
Blessings
We're still all learning & subject to the Spirit's influence & guidance, but we would give God & His Word good service, if we give our full consideration to all that He has revealed to us in His Word. Every blessing & I do appreciate your other input to me & others here.
understanding where as there is no doubt] then you can go down to verse 21. Then there is the word for know
oida which is like knowing baseball but never played, which is head knowledge God wants us to have a indept heart
of who He is and How his word works in the church.
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