Bible Discussion Thread

Predestination. Focusing on the book of John.

Introduction: I am attempting after years of study to give a proper examination of the doctrine of election; associated with the 5 points of Calvin; or what some call the "grace gospel." Ultimately; this is to demonstrate that we cannot save ourselves; it requires Divine intervention. From my viewpoint; this does NOT negate human choices as it were as God in this fallen world always has worked around the circumstances that even His saints have lived in who often should know better; not to mention the kings and those in authority. It is not the constraints on men in this lifetime that should be the focus; although there are limits to God's patience but it is the will of God which is accomplished no matter how much Satan and wicked men work against Him. Thus; He allows the sin of a nation to come to the full before judgment ( Gen. 15:16). He has set times and seasons; and is indeed the Alpha and Omega ( Rev. 21:6-7).

Before getting into scriptures specifically in the Book of John (this forum isn't meant for more than an overview rather than an extensive study) which prove God predestines all those who will come to the faith and hence be saved I wanted to make a few points. First of all; the argument of "what about those who have never heard the Gospel" is not as solid as it may seem. To assume that only those who are in a society that teaches Biblical truth to recieve it; and assumes that others who don't hear it are left out need only go to Abraham being called OUT of Ur of the Chaldees to the land of Promise and follow the true God.

The Exodus took His people to a new land; but only a remnant of Israel was true Israel ( Romans 9:24-29). This is also demonstrated in the O.T. We see the same principle in Isaiah 10:20-23 for the future of the nation of Israel; and also with the church ( Matt. 13:24-30).

Finally; there is a process which determines or proves our spiritual condition set forth for all men.

I'd like to hear this study and I think others do too. I did a study on why we need to focus on the founding principles of God's Grace and the doctrines thereof which belong not to any religion but are often accepted/rejected because of one of these (in context with your OP): Calvinism vs. Hyper-Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Long story short, these guys are long dead and majority of mainline denominations stand behind one or the other. Basically, we're giving honor to these 2 (Calvin & Arminius) years after death --- they would have loved that their false religions and misinterpretation of scriptures would be talked about hundreds of years after there death.

Thanks. I am going to study John; then be out of town at the end of next week for4 or 5 days. I have had time to put a lot of material on this site; which will be somewhat reduced this fall Lord willing when I am scheduled to go back to my part time job.

There are things in my own life that need work; as we all do. As you stated; most people are aware of the 2 points of view. I can't see any other view than God's predetermined plan in John. Since John is the first gospel and often the main thing new believers re expected to read; I thought it was particularly relevant. Also; there is a focus on much of what Jesus Himself said; which certainly reflects later in the epistles of Paul; as well as even the book of Revelation.

The best we can do is trust God; read all things with integrity (i.e. in regard to verses mentioning the "whole world" and man's responsibility) and focus on what we do know. That requires us to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6).

It also involves our resolution and desire to heed His voice; at least in determining our spiritual maturity; and hence REWARDS we recieve or are withheld from because of the quality of our service. A primary issue is whether God can break trough beyond what all humans can perceive; that is the invisible creation and Godhead as Romans 1 indicates. There are muddy issues involved; for instance if God hears prayers of the wicked (Job would seem to deny it but we must keep in mind not all the advice given to him was appropriate). There are other prayers of the wicked at their death calling to God which scripture indicates at some point He will ignore. ( Jeremiah 11:14 for one).

Nonetheless; IF a person genuinely asks God to show them the truth; and they are willing to find out no matter how bad; I have to believe He will reveal sin righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). God's Holiness must be revealed as beyond any so called virtue of human love to be saved as i see it.