Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Grae I tend not get into dicussion which genders strife and no profit, also we are to speak the truth in love and

not to one up so I'm with you, its your priviledge to believe what you will and also mine. All I know in my personal

life as the scripture says I have had lots of scripturally based signs miracles and wonders. P.S. I believe jesus Christ

is Gods only begotten son, and I believe in God almighty and In His Gift Holy spirit and these three work together

as one to deliver mankind from the adversary Gods arch enemy.

There r a lot of us about David , not too many on this site but plenty of us out there , may God bless you .

Pt. 1

I'm with you , Chris, on this. To me, one who does not believe that Jesus is God as well as Man is someone who is espousing a false teaching and embracing another Jesus than what Paul and the Gospel writers have presented to us. Is it perilous to believe a false teaching or place one's trust in another Jesus? I would say yes. Much like we refute the "different Jesus" teaching of cults like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and New Age, I believe the same should be done to those who espouse "Oneness" theology or those who promote what has been consistently determined to be heresies concerning Jesus Christ throughout the history of the church such as: Arianism (denies the deity of Jesus); Adoptionism (that Jesus was adopted as the Son of God at His baptism or crucifixion, or resurrection but was not the eternal Son, pre-existing all creation); Sabellianism/Modalism (denial of the eternal distinctions of the Persons of the Godhead, but says that God revealed Himself in different roles at different times as the Father, Son, and Spirit-taught by present day Oneness Pentecostalism); Monophysitism (teaches that Jesus had one nature which was a combination/mixing of both His divine and human nature); Nestorianism (teaching that Jesus was two Persons in one body, one divine and the other human); Apollinariansim (teaching that Jesus had a human body but only one divine nature without a human mind or spirit)



The historical orthodox teaching is that Jesus is the Son of God having taken on humanity to have two natures in one Person. These two natures are 100% deity and 100% humanity. These two natures are not mixed together to form a third type of nature that is no longer fully divine nor fully human (monopysitism) nor is Jesus two Persons in one body (Nestorianism).

The two natures in Jesus (divine and human) are united but not mixed, therefore Jesus can operate either nature at any time, but the singular person of Jesus Christ experiences both natures at any given time.

"Grae":

Stay true to what the Spirit teaches you.

As you can see the truth that the book of Job is about the life of Christ.

Look at the book of the Psalms in that same light.

It's a conversation between Father and Son, and the sons life, and those prophecies of that relationship.

Remember it's Christ's words not David's.

2 Samuel 23:1-2

God Bless YOU, his body.

Hiya Grae luv ya....And Jesus was not his own Father but he was the father of the H.G....The very fact that we have a Father and a son begs the Question of a Granson a heavenly Jacob that Isaiah mentions in Isaiah 49....An Israel of God

....And the very fact that they call Jesus the bridegroom implies heavenly Children....Gods the H.G. Plural as the Stars of Heaven

But the scriptures says Hebrews 1:8....But unto the SON he says thy throne O GOD is forever and ever...A sceptre of righteounsess is the septre of thy Kingdom...

......Even in the natural a bridegroom always becomes a Father and the Children always becomes fathers....Everything has to multiply after its Kind....Even the H.G. which is the Child of Promise wants to regenerate himself in ppl....Washing us with his Word..... Titus 3:5 kjv....Multiplication of Christ Seed was that great Promise.

......Remember Jesus said blessed are them that follow me in the REGENERATION when the son of man is revealed ....Which is when he will go forth and sow his seed in humanity the contents of the book that he finished with his own blood...That New Covenant....Bringing forth the sons of God in Humanity

When he said all mine is thine and all thine is mine proves he is equal to his FATHER and he thought it not Robbery to be equal to God his FATHER....But the law said we must honor our fathers thus he gave all honor to his father....Saying my Father is greater then i.....But even in the natural a son always becomes equal to his father and we fathers loves it so.

Even in the natural there is not 1 man who wants to see his son inferior to him....We want our sons to become equal to us....No man wants an inferior son....This is my beloveth son in whom i am well pleased...Jesus was God the son or his father was not God the father...period...ok lemme go

Hi Grae. I realize you've written to Adam, but if I may, I'll just briefly write this.

You've stated, "(your belief that Jesus is not God is) totally clear to me from my reading of the whole Bible." And you feel frustrated that folk believing as you do are barracked by those who don't. I don't sense that this happens. What I do see is that one side presents their belief & the other side presents their belief & that is up for discussion, as per these Discussion Pages. If you feel that these others are heavy-handed in their presentation, then they have presented Scriptures to show the Deity of Christ & hope that folk will use those Scriptures to argue their case.

I know Adam has presented a long list of references in the past, as I have also shared some. Has anyone even attempted to discuss those verses? One person did try to discuss John 1:1-14 with me, but conveniently changed the meaning that after Jesus was born into the World, God's Word came into Him. I've often presented one particular verse ( John 17:5): "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." And none have given their understanding of this verse.

So, this can be frustrating to us also. For me, I wonder, 'have folk missed reading this verse altogether; have they read it but have their own understanding or even changed it; or, will it shake their belief, so best avoid discussion? You've read the whole Bible, you write. How do you, one who doesn't believe in the Deity of Jesus, deal with John 17:5? I would really like to know, because if I were in your position, that verse alone would shake my long-held belief severely.

Amen Chris good verse that John 17 :5....It does not need any explanation.....Its Kinda self explanitory...

Chris , thanks for your response . If I choose to do so I could back up my beliefs with scripture also . As I said in my answer to Adam I have no desire to get into a big debate about this , mostly because I don't feel the need to convert others or justify my beliefs and also because it seems to me that I would b wasting my time and energy . I do feel that hinging my beliefs on just a few scriptures isn't good idea when there r many other scriptures that contradict those that I am hinging my beliefs on , its not something that I would b comfortable doing . If I were to go through the Bible , from the beginning , quoting all the scriptures that I feel back up my beliefs , it would take me a full week of all day work . I'm not doing it right now . I'm now done with this site , reason being ? I did say that I wasn't up for a debate about this in my response to Adam but , u couldn't leave me alone as I had asked .

You may not see my reply Grae, since you're done here, but will just add this: that no one believing in the fully Deity of Christ can leave this important subject without proving it with all that has been given us in the Word. For me, & not enforcing this on anyone else, my salvation wholly depends on this Truth, or else my salvation is spurious, calling on and believing in another Jesus. Hence, the weight this subject carries is tremendous & comes to us from the Word as the most vital doctrine that we must understand & depend on. Blessings.

No one proved it to me , a person didn't tell me , the Bible did . I don't need to prove it to anyone , u could never prove to me that Jesus is God , only the Bible could do that . Good bye and God bless .

Grae,

Praying for you, especially if you are absent from this site, as you have indicated. May you be blessed in your pursuit of God and His Truth.

Agreed, Chris, this is why we enter these discussions. These are not verbal battles, but worthy discourses on very important matters. Some people do well in such discussions, but others may be more fragile. We want to be sensitive to them, as you are. But I think that to enter into a discussion, say your piece, and then ask that no one respond is probably not an indicator of being more fragile.

Regardless, as you and others have demonstrated time and again, we participate in civil discourse here, being respectful of others' contributions, but also speaking strongly to matters that are very crucial to us, disagreeing when we sense something is in error, and holding out the Word of Truth as our standard, rule, and guide.

Thank you GiGi. I fully agree; if one presents a comment here, it should be done with the expectation that it will provoke someone else to give a response. And when, what I believe is a critical doctrine that comes up, all the more reason for multiple emotion-charged responses to flood in.

What I am still trying to figure out, is the deathly silence that permeates when a verse is presented that should cause one to think further & reassess one's long-held beliefs. Even an ' I'll check this out with my pastor/elder & get back to you ' can give me some hope that something more meaningful will develop. But instead, a tenacious grip on a belief that fails to take other Scriptures to account, can make any hope of a useful discussion fall flat.

Chris If I may interject what's the definition of doctrine biblically. The reason I ask what seperated the doctrine of Jesus

christ were the signs miracles and wonders and healings that Gods power worked in and through Him. The same power

or exousia is available to the body of christ today if its believed. Why because its christ in us and Jesus Christ is the

same yesterday today and forever.

Hello David. The definition of 'Doctrine'? I understand it as, 'a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject'. So, when we have a myriad of doctrines (body of teachings) found in the Bible (of God, Christ, Holy Spirit, Salvation, Future things, etc.), these doctrines have been developed as a result of all that Scripture has revealed to us. The problem then arises as to how those Scriptures are to be interpreted, understood, & applied - hence our many Church denominations. On this medium (KJBO), we may never get to the level of examining all the intricacies of Scripture & the times of their writing, but we should at least be prepared to discuss what is given to us, whether in agreement or not, & in line with the correct exposition of supporting Scriptures.

So, when you write, "what separated the doctrine of Jesus christ were the signs miracles, etc, that Gods power worked in and through Him". This is correct - I believe, in part. Certainly, the Life & Ministry of Jesus was filled with parables expressing Kingdom Life, His miracles & words that even confounded & angered His opponents, but if we restrict the Doctrine of Christ to only that, then we've failed to fully express (as is revealed to us), the full Person of Jesus.

Most of us would readily agree to certain parts of that Doctrine (i.e. His Humanity, His Sinlessness, His Ministry on Earth, His Death, Resurrection, Ascension, & His present Heavenly Ministry), but when it comes to His pre-existence, His Deity, & His Kenosis (self-emptying), we run into divergent beliefs. Some believe this is either unimportant or unbiblical; unworthy of consideration. Others, as myself, believe that this part of the Doctrine is vital to knowing Jesus, the great worth of His Death, the power of His Resurrection, & the praise that belongs to Him in Heaven & on Earth. Therefore, the need to discuss these things is vital to progress to a correct understanding of Jesus & the great cost of our salvation. Blessings.

Chris. The answer is signs miracles and wonders follow what's known as

Right doctrine. What's amazing to me is how many delivered people I know

That simply believe certain scripture and God healed them. You don't have

To have a ton of knowledge it's what do you really believe determines outcome.

The problem today is too many so called belief systems like you said

Reminds me of Jeremiah 2:13 the church has not followed that which Jesus Christ gave to Paul in the Epistles to the Church Of God. This needs no response.

Chris. Considering God looks at the heart and not the intellect I know many a

believers that don't agree on all beliefs including the triune belief and God still

Works in their lives, I know people who believe in speaking in tongues and those

Who don't and God works in their lives. The idea is where's your heart, another

Point is we don't fight for God or His Word we speak the truth in love. One other

Point when we are born again it is a spiritual or supernatural event, the miracle

Of all miracles and the biggest reason we don't see more is our unbelief because

As I was told that the miracles were just for that time yet the scriptures don't say that. I would

Rather discuss how to get healed or how walk with God greater in Christ than

Get into original language interpretations which others don't believe and can get

Complicated instead of teaching how to believe in love. Jesus Christ healed

When the people didn't even know who he was he just ask to believe.

Page 2.

And 1 John 4:3, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." John, as the other apostles, were dealing with an early Docetic heresy which claimed that 'deity cannot unite with the material (e.g. a body)'. Everyone there believed in Jesus' existence on Earth (they saw & heard Him & history records it for us today), but not all believed that this Christ came from God & took on flesh. The false teachers entered the Church then to teach this lie, & had to be refuted.

Does this bother me, that believers over the ages, denied the Deity of Christ? It does indeed, but people can believe what they want about this, for only to God we are answerable. But as I stated earlier, for me (personally), this doctrine is extremely vital, for my salvation & faith firmly hangs onto it. Thus I believe that it must be presented, even if only to refute false teaching. Others can be the judge of what is Truth. Maybe you feel all this debate is unwarranted & unnecessary, but I believe the biblical pattern is to defend the Truth. If I am in error, then please, you or anyone, from Scripture, expose it so that I can consider those verses. But if Truth doesn't matter, or even to discuss it, then why are we even here, or does it even matter in what we believe?

Page 1.

Thanks David. I hear what you're saying, that "God looks at the heart and not the intellect; that agreement on all beliefs is not required for God to work." And I agree with you.

When the need (or, question) has arisen that requires a response to help one grow in love or in their "walk with God", then yes, there's no need to initiate a discussion/debate on how one understands that this can happen. It will just be opinions on how one has found their love or growth has increased, and this can vary & be specific to each one of us.

And yes, "we don't fight (or even need to fight) for God or His Word"; if by that you mean, that both God & His Word remain eternally consistent & true & what man may offer in contradiction, will never alter the facts. But what happens when the Word is believed but the Truths within it are being compromised, altered, or incorrectly taught? I hear one say, 'don't let that bother you - God is in control - His Word stands sure - His Spirit will guide into all Truth'.

Then why should the apostles have bothered about the health of Christ's Church & be perturbed about false doctrines/teachings entering in? Such as, 2 Peter 2:1-3 (false prophets/teachers); Romans 16:17,18 (wrong doctrine brought in, causing divisions); 2 Timothy 2:17,18 (no future resurrection, destroying the believers' faith); Galatians 1:6-9 (another Gospel); Some of 1st John (refuting Gnostic teaching); core verses in 1 John 2:22,23: "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. And onto 1 John 4:3 (next page).

Chris,

Pt. 2

The mystery of Jesus Christ is one that we will not fully understand and has been attempted to be explained over the centuries again and again. It is good to review the outcomes of these attempts in our history to be equipped to explain this mystery of Who Jesus Christ truly is in this generation. It is not a small or insignificant matter concerning the nature and Person of Jesus Christ because each error has repercussions on the believer and implications concerning the accuracy and effectiveness of Jesus' death and resurrection for the salvation of mankind.

Many people are fine to live their life in Christ without really delving into this topic. But some of us have been led to look into this area of Christology in a deeper way and we should share what we have learned with others and to defend the faith once and for all passed down to us from the apostles. Which we humbly do here on this site. in doing so, we, ourselves will learn from one another which will lead us to a truer view of our Lord and Sviour and deepen our relationship with Him, which is our true aim.

I suggest to anyone reading this post that they can go to a site like "Got Questions" or "Compelling Truth" and type in any of the terms I have mentioned here to find a much better explanation of these heresies as well as the nature and Person of Jesus Christ (Christology). I suggest, if one does wish to do such research, record your findings in a notebook so you can go back a review it against Scripture as you read the Word and to have information to give people who may be seeking to know Jesus more accurately.

Certainly, Chris, you, I and others do not engage in these discussion for the sake of argument or one-upmanship, nor for the love of debate or a sense of superiority. Rather, we wish to maintain in the Body of Christ true teaching and integrity of our faith.

All of this is done in the name and for the sake and honor of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Thank you GiGi for sharing these further thoughts on this important subject & for the research you've also done. I never would have imagined that there were so many 'isms' defining the various beliefs on this matter, & most probably, on other biblical subjects. How do these beliefs even develop when we all read from the same Bible?

So, I heartily agree with all you've written and yet sensing that there should be some latitude given for those who have not fully grasped this Truth, or babes in Christ, or even been subject to wrong teaching that has been forcefully placed in their hearts giving no opportunity to question what is taught (sects, cults). I feel that the Lord understands these obstacles, and after all, it is only a looking at & believing in the crucified One that secures God's Approval & Acceptance of the penitent sinner. But, having been broken, then made spiritually alive & longing for & loving the Lord Jesus, one would assume that this relationship based on love would cause the believer to want to know much more about Him; at least from all the Scriptures that reveal Him. Even a healthy loving marriage reflects such a desire - one of earnestly wanting to know everything about the life, interests, & hopes of their spouses, which can only enrichen that special relationship.

And so, as you've shared, it is our united hope that all of us together on this Site, might lovingly share from the Word, & from our knowledge or experience, that would help another believer "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." I know that I've learnt much from others, seeing other points of view, and also from a concentrated study of the Scriptures, which I might not ordinarily have done, so as to be able to respond to enquirers. May you be encouraged dear sister in all that the Lord places on your heart to share with us.

Yes, Chris, we need to a degree, to make allowances for error, as we each have our own misconceptions and erroneous ideas on matters of faith and doctrine. We should definitely pray for others, as the Spirit leads us to do so. I know as one who came from a denomination that did teach many errors, that God can reach us in these circumstances. He put in me a desire to know only what is true of Him and matters of faith from a young age. I remember praying for Him to show me what is true and what is false in the denomination of my upbringing when I was 9 years old. I began to read the Word because I knew it was Truth. I was so set on gaining truthful knowledge that I stopped reading fiction from the library and began reading non-fiction. I read encyclopedias, the dictionary, science books, biographies, etc. I was thirsty for right knowledge. God honored that and began to show me where the teachings of the denomination I was being raised in differed from what the Scriptures taught. So, thus began my gradual move away from the errors of this denomination into the truth of the Word. I doubt that is a normal experience for most children, but it is my biography.

God led me in this way. He will lead others into what is true and away from what is false when He teaches them from His Word or from the knowledge He has shown others who then share it out. I trust that God will bring people to Truth if they really desire to know only what is true of Him and the faith of Jesus. It is part of our sanctification process. Jesus promised that the Spirit will lead us in all Truth. I believe that wholly.

So, we share what we learn with others. This site is a good place to do so. I have learned much from others here in the short time I have been participating. We interact on here with love and compassion and being sensitive to those who are, as you say, babes in Christ, or who have been brought up in a situation where there was much error taught. We pray for all of us to be teachable.

Amen GiGi. Thank you for sharing that, as well as that important of your early life. Your hunger for Truth & things of the Lord at nine years of age is truly remarkable - not sure how many of us at that age growing up in a Christian family/environment would earnestly seek the Lord, as was your desire. The Lord has faithfully provided all your heart's desire. Every blessing.

Chris. We plant we water but God gives the increase, years ago a Russian

Expert mathematician set out to prove the bible imperfect. 2 years later was

Born again because he saw that God's Word is even mathematically perfect

By the way a great work in that field was done by E. W. Bulinger years ago.

My point being as in our own lives it's let Go and let God, that being said I

Understand your position concerning fight the good fight . On this discussion

Moving on. Agapeo.

Chris,

For sure, but we can always pray for others here and if someone presents a view that we think does not align with Scripture, then that is an opportunity for us to pray for that person specifically. Those who do not post have views that are unknown to us and we can certainly pray generally for everyone who reads a discussion, we just cannot be as specific as when someone posts. So, everyone is encouraged and welcomed to share their thoughts and beliefs here. There is a lot of love and concern here on this site and we all can feel valued by one another, in my opinion.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus was spirit. Earth was created only for humans. He set aside his God status

To become human. To die for humans. He retrieved authority and dominion Adam lost. Gen 3:15

He did no miracles until Luke 4:18

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ

Brother Adam:

Jesus Christ is the BODY of his Father; therefore he is 100 % God.

John 17:23 ...Thou in me ....

John 17:21 ...as thou Father art in me, and I in thee ....

God Bless YOU!