Bible Discussion Thread

I find it strange , in the new testament people are sometimes referred to as having a demon or possessed of a devil etc . In the old testament people are referred to as mad , what we might call mentally ill today . 1st Samuel Chapter 21 verse 10-15 .

the word of God is the same today and forever more. Its true people can be taken over by demon and many cases of mental health is actually demonic.

you need to understand that Jesus began his ministries with casting out demons and they hide in plain site today.

the work of Saturn is to ensure no one believes he is around.

read your bible and pray for understanding.

Thankyou to everyone who replied to me about this , it is a tough one to answer clearly and definatively I think . Honestly I don't really believe in what many people would call evil spirits , of course there can be confusion about this if we don't always define what we mean exactly about the words we use . Words mean different things to different people . I definately believe that some people are just mentally ill , due to their traumatic life experiences or due to chemical imbalances or to genetics and none of these things are their fault . For me , it seems that the more worldly some one is the less Christian they seem to be . The things of this world don't have much to do with God or Jesus , materialism , sensual satisfaction , no boundaries in behaviour , no thoughts about why and how we ( this whole earth ) got to be in existence , living only to satisfy themselves and there own desires on that particular day , a deep love of science and technology almost to obsession levels , thinking that humans are the be all and end all of everything , which is a trait of atheists I think . It seems to me that some people are just so full of this world that there's just no room in them for God or Jesus . Of course satan is referred to as the prince of this world . Any way , for me , to know where goodness and truth are , is the main thing and they can only be found with God and Jesus , this i know for sure . I shall be sticking with them and trying not to gaze at the distractions of this world for too long or too often . Thanks again for all the replies , I read and enjoyed them all and took some knowledge from each of them , much appreciated .

Hi Delilah. I understand what you're saying & it does seem that way in the Old Testament. My understanding is that there are various sorts of evil spirits, whether in their powers or purposes, being directed upon man. In 1 Samuel 16:14-23, we see an instance of Saul being troubled by an evil spirit. We don't know whether that was confined to just a mental turmoil or whether there was any other manifestation of it. But after David played upon his harp, the evil spirit departed, indicating that this spirit that was directed from the LORD upon Saul was limited in its power. Also we have other instances of this, as in Judges 9:23 (an evil spirit sent by God to foster hatred by the men of Shechem to Abimelech). So, it appears that evil spirits were active in those days also, though how they were manifested & the extent of their work in different lives, can vary.

Then also today, the work of evil spirits still goes on, but limited by God to what they can actually do, as seen in the example of Job. And those who have mental illness does not necessarily equate to demonic possession, though other spiritual influences (of oppression or possession) cannot be ruled out either. And then the matter about whether God has control over such spirits to do His bidding, or whether what we read in the Bible is God granting permission to them giving them varied amounts of access & control in certain lives for a specific purpose. Maybe, a question that cannot be easily answered, for want of more information.

Chris. Brother to think or even contemplate that the God and Father of our

Lord and saviuor would use anything of the devil's abilities or devil spirits to

Accomplish His will is beyond absurd. John 10:9. The thief cometh but to

Steal kill and destroy that's the adversaries job nothing else. It's a tremendous

Manipulation of the enemy to get people to think or believe that the true God is

Causing any problems when He has Nothing to do with man's unbelief! Sin

Sickness disease and death physically or spiritually did not occur until Satan

Stole the rulership of earth from Adam. Luke 4:6 it was delivered to Him the

Adversary also known as God of this world. So all of mankind's problems

In all categories are because of unbelief in the true God and Jesus Christ and

Being tricked by the God of this world which the true God has nothing in common with!

Thank you for what you've shared Henry. Ordinarily, I could agree that God cannot use evil in any of its forms to accomplish His Will - that Satan alone is the instigator of everything evil & our problems emanate from our fallen state & our listening to him; but what then do we do with the Scriptures that tell us of God sending out an evil spirit, or even of Job, where God gave Satan permission to do whatever he wanted with Job except to touch his life?

How do we then understand: "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him" ( 1 Samuel 16:14), or when "the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart" ( Exodus 10:27), which ensured that further plagues would come upon the people, ultimately bringing on the deaths of their firstborn? Can we, from this point in history, look back at what took place when God's Hand moved upon people, & confidently state the modus operandi of God? From our present view, we can say that nothing evil, even the smell of it, can emanate from God, but what we might consider as evil is something that God has control over, which we may know little or nothing about.

What could have gone on in Job's mind I wonder, as he always walked carefully before God, "perfect and upright, one that feared God, and eschewed evil", and then faced tragedy after tragedy? The caliber of the man was clear; when in spite of his losses, he still 'fell onto his face & worshipped God'; yet he never received an answer to his many afflictions, but had to accept the sovereignty of God in every situation, even accepting Satan's strikes against him.

Even our Lord suffered & died by the hands of wicked men, filled & controlled by evil spirits that made them & Satan believe that victory was theirs by ridding this One from their midst. With the many other references in the Bible, I can only conclude that I yet don't have an understanding of God's Ways, both in sending forth an evil spirit, allowing it to work & fulfilling His Will.

Chris If the adversary would have known what the true God was going to do

At pentecost He would not have crucified Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 2:8 that

Was the mystery of Gods Wisdom. What happened on pentecost was not

Written in scrolls at that time because it was hid in God. Satan knew of the

Messiah to come but he did not know that the power that Jesus Christ walked

In would be given to us who believe. The age of Grace the church Of God was

Hidden. See Satan knows scripture but at the time of Jesus Christ there was

Not a new testament only old. Also Jesus Christ said the prince of the world cometh in whom I have nothing to do with and He always did and stated the

Father's will. That's why steal kill destroy or olive and have it more abundantly.

God Bless

Hello Henry

God is LOVE but God is also CONSUMING FIRE. We, christians like to focus on God's characteristic of LOVE and we often forget that God is RIGHTOUNESS also, which means there is Judgement for one who breaks His Laws, which means condemnation and penalty given and paid. Jesus paid that penalty for mankind, but unbelievers will pay the penalty with their (eternal) lives.

We live in the age of GRACE so that judjement for people (who don't believe) will be not be shown untill after death, but that was not the case in the Old Testament (which was the age of LAW, not the age of GRACE) when God's Judgement was often shown immediately. Who sent the angel to kill the firstborns of Egyptians? Who opened the earth and Korah and his family went down to hell? Who sent the poisonous snakes to bite the Israelites in the dessert? Who sent that angel who exterminated the people of Jerusalem when David counted his people? Who sent that fire from the sky that burned the soldiers who came to capture Elijah? And many many other incidents.

That is why the Bible says that we should fear the Lord. Respect and love Him when we are in obedience but Fear Him when we disobey Him. Also even in NT there is the event with Ananias and Sapphira that were not given a second chance and went to hell immediately. Who did that?

Brother Chris is right about demons in the OT, when it it written "God sent" it actually means "God permitted". This is very obvious in the Book Of Job, when satan presented himself before God and asked fpr permission to test Job and was given that. The Bible says that God told him to go and do what he planted.

GBU

Sorry, in my previous post, in the last sentence I meant planned, not planted.

Gianni's. You mentioned Ananias and Saphira his wife it is your adding that they went to hell show me the verse that says that or are we again reading into scripture. Also you missed where Satan filled

Their hearts I don't read where the true God did anything they were manipulated

By Satan and lied and stole and their hearts were corrupt. What you sew is what

You reap.

Gianni's. God never planted anything evil Jobs fear 3:25 led to His troubles

God said to Satan that Job would never curse or betray Him which Job didn't.

The book of Job shows the goodness God and the wickedness of the adversary.

The one steal kill and destroy. The other blessings and the giver of life and

Wholeness. In the gospels when Jesus Christ came to His own hometown he

Couldn't many mighty works because of their unbelief. When he came walking

On the water and ask Peter to come Peter was ok until fear crept in and caused

Unbelief, before Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from the dead nobody andI mean

Nobody believed he could do it that's why He said it loud enough father you always

Hear me then Lazarus come forth. He was crucified due to unbelief Israel's

Rejection of the messiah so again it's not a case of God allowing it's the conditions

That man's unbelief that he intercedes. If that's what you consider God's allowing

Because God works true to His word and the enemy manipulates for man's worship

God is working in the conditions that he knows for a time the enemy has tricked

the family he wanted man into working in. That's not allowing that is understanding conditions. Thank God by grace He stays true to His Word and

Commitment to having a family to love Him by freedom of will. We who are called

By Grace because it is impossible to put a price tag on eternal life! God Bless

Gianni's. Here's a question did God blame Adam and Eve for the downfall

Most wil say yes answer is no Gen:3:14 he blames serpent i.e.(Satan). Then

God says to Eve you will have labor bearing children and then to Adam because

You listened and hearkened or acted now cursed is the ground not due to Adams

Actions but due to who the new god of earth was , God lovingly was preparing and

Explaining the new conditions! All to protect and preserve for the coming of the

Messiah. So their punishment was due to their disbelief not the original will of

God. So all throughout God's word and His knowing the new conditions he kept

His Word to make sure His Will would be accomplishied by interceding when and

Where necessary but that was not the original intent. He is always dealing with

Man's unbelief being manipulated by the god of this world 2 Cor.4:4. Now if that

Is what your calling God allowing ok, but that's not the reality. That's why all of

Man's problems are due to worshipping other gods except the true God, the

Current climate conditions is not global warming it is due to man's unbelief and

Playing or thinking He's got it all figured out! It's strikes me as interesting when

Someone says God will do anything it's not true God can't lie and God will not

Do something outside of His Word because His Will or primary Goal is His Word.

I.E. Giver of life and more abundant! Jesus Christ!

Hello Henry.

You are right that God doesn't do or plan anything evil. How could that ever be possible for God? But He oftens allows satan to tempt and test people, like in Paradise with Adam and Eve, like Saul the first king of Israel, like Job, like Judas, like with antichrist and his mark etc. "Allows" means that He doesn't do something Himself but He lets satan(or people) do his(their) own. Just think of WW2. Did God plan and do those wars? No, but He allowed it to happen. He could have prevented it if He wanted to, but He didn't. Why? Because He decided that people have free will and can do anything they want without Him intervening in their business.

Sometimes satan serves God's plans without him knowing that. What do I mean? God wanted to test Adam and Eve and let satan in the Paradise to test them. God wanted Jesus to be sacrificed for mankind's salvation so He let satan lead Jesus to the cross. Satan didn't know God's mysterious plan and he thought he won until he realized that what he did was what actually God's Will planned. Who can take on God and win? It is like playing chess with a computer that thinks a billion moves ahead.

Everything at the end will go according to God's Will. And His Will is those people who love Him and walk with Him will live with Him hapilly for ever. And who knows what other beautiful things are to come next.

GBU

Gianni's. Also you are dead on when you said Satan did not know the mystery

Of the Body of Christ or the power that was given us when born again of God's

Spirit 1 Corinthians 2:6-8, this is so big we will never fully comprehend we have

The privilege of endeavoring to walk and believe antil we fall asleep in Him or

Are gathered together. I can't wait that's the hope of the return!

Gianni's. A fantastic example of Gods operation when Zachariah was making

Sacrifice for Israel and Gabriel appeared and told him he would have a son and

Call him John and all the good things about him. Then Zacharias hits the angel

With absolute unbelief but because of lineage daughters of Aaron only

Elisabeth could be John the Baptist mother so God's next step shut up Zachariah

Until child was born. You would think a priest a man of God would have been

Thrilled with that positive of an announcement but instead unbelief which God

In His grace covered another step to bring forth and complete the ministry of

Jesus Christ because John the Baptist was sent to prepare the people's hearts

For Jesus Christ ministry.

Hello Henry,

I can understand how Zechariah was caught in unbelief. There had not been any prophecy in Israel for 400-500 years, Malachi being the last prophet, I believe. So, the Word of the Lord had not come to any person in all that time. The people had the written O.T. to hear read and learn from the rabbis. But, God was not speaking to people through a prophet for all that time. Also, Zechariah and Elizabeth were elderly, long past childbearing age and were unable to conceive a child. They probably had given up all hope of every having a child from their marriage union. They most likely had found a way to be resolved to this fact. Infertility is very hard to go through while a woman is still having her fertility cycle, but after these cease, most couples would accept that they would never have children of their own. And Zechariah would have had trouble believing that YHWH would choose him to bring a prophecy to, since he did not have any children, like a good priest would have had. he may have felt unqualified to receive such a prophecy for this very reason. But God was gracious to him and Elizabeth. Like Sarah who laughed when the Angel of the Lord told Abraham that she would soon become pregnant at 99 years of age, God did not reneg on his promise. He had a profound reason to give these prophecies and promises and that it was of utmost importance for them to be carried out according to His wisdom and pre-ordained plan. He would fulfill His Word faithfully and flawlessly regardless of how the one contacted responded. God's will prevails in His plan of redemption. Thankfully!

Gigi. Thanks but had nothing to do with my point but thanks for sharing and

I already understand all of what you shared.

Gianni's. He didn't allow it Satan was operating by His free will to be like the

Most high God and by deceit which is one of his traits tricked Adam and Eve

And they bought the lie by their freedom of will because God doesn't force

Man to believe. He has to allow it to happen because he made us with free

Will and he operates according to His Word which He doesn't break. It's

Absolutely grace that he does what he does because man in no way shape

Or form deserves anything from God. The reason on the cross Jesus Said

Forgive them for they know not what they do is because until born again we

Have no true spiritual knowledge of God.

Thanks again Henry for those comments. I realize you're done with this topic, but I'll still respond as a matter of courtesy, reading through each of your pages that you've taken the trouble to share.

You stated (of the 1 Samuel passage), "It is an error in translation evil spirit from The lord." The Hebrew of this verse shows it as given, specifically, 'a distressing spirit (or, one of adversity/evil) from Yahweh'. The question then is, did God direct this type of spirit towards Saul, or did God allow this evil to overtake Saul when God's Own Spirit was removed?' We know that Saul was already in a bad mental & spiritual state, so was open to evil influences, but we still have to get over the hurdle of God doing (or, allowing) what He did.

And this isn't a single isolated incident. See Judges 9:23 (God judges Abimelech & the men of Shechem); Job 1:9-12 (God permits Satan to test Job's resolve rather than God doing it); 1 Kings 22:20-23 (God's punishment of Ahab leading to his death); 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 (delusion leading to damnation to the followers of the Anti-christ).

There's more to be shared, but will keep this short. I understand what you've stated, that Satan is the instigator of everything evil, but we do have Scriptures that show us the Works of God according to His Wisdom & Plan, and they include the participation of the evil forces present in the world. Even the wicked Assyrian & Babylonian kings signify this truth, as also those who crucified our Lord. We simply cannot separate the operation of evil from God using it or allowing it. God can allow it or forbid it as He chooses (i.e. Job could have been spared such suffering), but Satan was permitted to have his way. I see sufficient evidence of this in the Bible. Blessings.

Hi Chris,

If I saw a child sleeping on railroad tracks with a distant train approaching, and I chose to allow the inevitable instead of forbid it, I don't think it would go over to well for those who observed or heard about it; especially with the God fearing/loving Christian community.

Please give consideration: Fear, hate, evil, darkness, etc. can never be resolved through the mastery and utilization of continued, additional fear. Because the true resolution always rests on mastery through Love. I must put my faith in Love, not fear.

Two guesses on who is the author and master of fear. Hint: its not Love.

Grace and Peace be with you

Thank you One Eighty but I couldn't connect your comment to what I had written. Maybe you could rewrite it & be more pointed - I won't be offended.

Surely the courteous thing to do is respect a person's wishes and leave them alone ?

Thank you Topol. I believe it was brother Henry who was done with replying. In my understanding, that means I should not expect further replies from him but that doesn't preclude me, or anyone else, from contributing to this thread.

I faced this once before when I saw, in a thread I was engaged in, that it was going nowhere. I told the other person that I would cease commenting but he continued to write three more times. I just never responded to him - the onus to do so was on me only.

So right, Chris.

Chris. Here's a question in Genesis did God allow Adam and Eve to sin or

Was it their unbelief and giving heed to the serpent i.e. Satan that caused man's

Downfall. What is believed had a lot to do with spiritual deliverance.

Hey Henry,

Interesting thread, can we understand the wisdom of God? God is light and no darkness is in Him. "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man". Can we understand what was done to Job? Can we understand why God allowed Satan limited control over the earth? Do we know why all the deaths, wars, and evil are allowed to be on earth? Do we overlook Jesus was sacrificed not only to reconcile things on the earth but also to reconcile things in heaven Colossians 1:20?

Did God allow Adam and Eve to sin? God has declared the end from the beginning and many things we have not been told, there come speculation that man is good at, self-included. There are two Adams in scripture and God's plan was before the world was. Can we ask the question, was the first Adam's purpose to start mankind; or was it for the same reason the last Adam was manifested that Satan had no clue? 1 John 3:8.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

We cannot come close to grasping the wisdom of God and His plan. We must humble ourselves; we have been given a choice to accept the grace God has given us in the sacrifice of His only begotten Son. If we accept this gift of salvation, we give this fleshly life to Him.

God is in control, not free will, whether we understand it or not and we must trust God with what happens to us in this life even if we are killed. A time is coming when many will be. Our hope is not in this life but in the life to come.

Job 38:1-4 Micah 4:12 1 Corinthians 2:14 Revelation 10:7

God bless,

RLW

Ronald. Never said free will in control and yes God's ultimate will. Will be done

Regardless of what man or the adversary does.

Thank you Henry for your question. As you gave it, I would say that God did allow Adam & Eve to sin (or, not to sin) because the power of choice was within the Divinity & was transmitted into man as were other aspects that made man in God's Image.

As far as man's downfall, Adam & Eve, with that power of choice, chose to obey Satan, without Satan having any authority to change any of their characteristics given them by God. In other words, Satan could only tempt man by offering a proposition - man had to choose who to obey.

In present terms, I would liken this to a man approaching me with an incredible investment portfolio promising very high returns, with all the supporting documentation to convince me; & presenting all this with the exuberance & conviction that is found in a salesman. Many people might be seduced by this 'once-in-a-lifetime' offer, but the astute one will know that in spite of his presentation, such an investment is guaranteed to be fraught with risks. Adam & Eve may have been naive before Satan, but they had God's Word clearly given to them coupled with an intimate daily walk with their Maker. That should have been sufficient to withstand Satan, but Satan's offer seemed too good to resist.

Now, how all this (your question & my response) ties in with God sending out an evil spirit to Saul, I'm unsure. Maybe yours is a new question so I'll sit back & allow you to develop this, if you care to.

Chris. Last comment. Again Saul was chosen by the people to rule it was not

God's choice God knew he wasn't the right man so when Saul copped out by

Disobedience He not God opened the door for evil influence. It was the same for

Adam and Eve they by disobedience opened door and made it possible for the

Adversary to have his way, God didn't make them do anything but then had to

As you say allow the enemy to work because of someone else disobedience

Which is not his fault. Even Jesus Christ had free will in the garden he ask God

If there was any other way because he knew the enemy was going to do

Whatever it took to break him down and what kept! Him going was pure absolute

Unconditional Love in fact Jesus Christ physically died of a broken heart. So in

Conclusion it been a rewarding education for me. GodBless

Chris. P.S. It's. Interesting that's you say ordinarily I'll explain years ago just

Getting into God's Word I went to hear a supposedly evangelist share and he was

Good until he told the story of a missionary couple doing God's work that had a

Child and to teach them a lesson God took or killed the baby! On leaving you

Shake hands with the guest speaker and I said to him I don't believe your story

About The true God taking life because it goes against all logic and common

Sense and is confusing. All those traits are in enemies realm and leaves a person in a state of question the true God doesn't work in that category. Thanks God

Bless

Chris. It's amazing how we take one incident in scripture and elevate it

When in the gospels all devil or evil spirits were cast out by Jesus Christ

Who always did the father's will. Also the secret of our enemy is the secrecy

Of how he functions always steal kill and destroy. Keep something in mind

The translated didn't always get it right. God is not a puppet master and we

Aren't an experiment. Keeping it simple and no confusion the true God builds

Up and adversary tears down. The first one works by organization the other

Total manipulation. I'll go with what Jesus Christ said steal kill and destroy.

It is interesting that the apostle Paul told the Corinthians to hand over a fellow

Believer who was checked out to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so

Let him go back into the world run by the adversary who destroys. I see where

Satan has done a good job of getting God blamed for His Work. I'm done on this

Subject God Bless.

Chris. The true God does have a lid or control over the adversary but that is

Not saying or implying that He uses that authority for His purpose. That is

Saying The true God manipulates and we are puppets no way. God knows

That His arch enemy will steal kill and destroy as much as possible knowing

His time is limited. Saul became possessed because he opened the door

(In the mind) when he disobeyed a direct order from Samuel the prophet and

That's when Saul's calamity started. It is a error in translation evil spirit from

The lord because eventually a man chosen by God goes to see a witch for

Spiritual help that is out there and tells you how full of fear he was and especially

Of David who was God's new choice for King. In the case of Jesus Christ it

Was His calling to die for mankind, so he knew everything that was going to

Be done and by whom! He knew all of mankind's troubles were a direct result

Of the devil or Satan. Again emphatically the True God does not use or

Manipulate Satan to do His will but he does know how he functions and His

Goal. If what you say is true we are in God's little experiment absolutely not

True, we wrestle against the rulersof the darkness of this world. People want

To believe in God's purity and goodness so how can pure love manipulate evil

It doesn't make spiritual sense therefore not true. I'm moving on God Bless!

My mother in law had a daughter born with down's syndrome and a religious

Person told her one day the daughter was like that because of her mother's sin

Sins that's, a sick statement because the love of God thinketh no evil, 1 Cor. 13.

I'm thankful I don't think that negative.

Old Testament has a very descriptive account in please read all chapters involved to get the whole WORD of GOD not taken away from, because there is so much inside of each descriptive moment & The HOLY Spirit can & does teach us so much more when we read entire accounts, that no person can teach. I've broken down interesting scriptures here to show several accounts that happened to help your study 1Samuel 13, 1Samuel 15, 1Samuel 16, 1Samuel 17, 1Samuel 18, 1Samuel 19, 1Samuel 20, 1Samuel 22, 1Samuel 23, 1Samuel 24, 1Samuel 26,

1Samuel 15:23, 1Samuel 16:14-23, 1Samuel 17:23-58, 1Samuel 18:6-29, 1Samuel 19:1,4,5,6, 1Samuel 19:9-18, 1Samuel 19:22-24, 1Samuel 20:25-34, 1Samuel 22:6-23, 1Samuel 23:7,8,24,25,26,27,28, 1Samuel 24:1,2,9,10,11,14,16,18,19,20,21, 1Samuel 26:1,2,3,17,21,25, 1Samuel 28:5,6,9,16,23,

1Samuel 28:16,

David pretended to be 'madd' 1Samuel 21, (1st time I've wondered, after reading this right now, did David learn the traits from witnessing Saul?)

For discussion: the king (Saul) not in his soundness of mind only cared about his political opponent seeking to destroy him constantly, using Armed Policing official forces that are supposed to protect the country, to chase after 1 political opponent, putting the entire country in danger & subject to attack!

Using 1 servant (because the rest of them knew better, not to touch GOD's children) to kill GOD's unarmed priests, patriots that loved their country served to death, loyal in sacrifice, crazily killed their families, everything. The very ones that prayed for him, served him, directed him._._

It's amazing how GOD's WORD is able to teach us, direct us, give us hope, encourage during dark moments, even show us examples of how to endure, be wise, Psalms 37, may be connected to this very moment in times

Delilah. In Samuel 1 chapter 21:11-15 David was running from Saul's Men

And went to another king that didn't respect the true God and David by God's

Telling him what to do and how to do it that why it says he veined Himself

Or made himself to appear a mad man and as a result they left Him go.

It's a fantastic example of a man obeying what God told Him to do.

The end result was he left and moved on to further do what God wanted.

God is always there to deal with any situation and he will never put you in

One and not have a way out if your listening. Also their are times when another

Believer may tell you the same thing God already told you but you weren't

Listening that's Grace. I have personal experience in the second.