Bible Discussion Thread

The birth of the Apostles.

UPON THIS ROCK I SHALL BUILD MY CHURCH.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Matthew 16:15-16

Ephesians 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

And are built upon the FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, Jesus Christ himself being the chief CORNER STONE;

In Luke 6:13 we see that Jesus chose who he would name Apostles.

"And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

The question is when did the disciples start operating in the office of Apostles?

When was the foundation laid?

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Are we capable of building with gold, silver and precious stone without the dwelling of the Holyspirit?

We do know in Matthew 28:16-17 even after Jesus resurrected the disciples still doubted.

"Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus commissioned them to go out to all the world but not to depart from Jerusalem until they were filled with the Holyspirit.

Acts 1:4-5. Luke 24:49.

I believe not until they were filled with the Spirit that rock the church was built on begun. The disciples began to function in the office as Apostles.

Ephesians 4:10-12. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

AND HE GAVE SOME, APOSTLES; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

He didn't do this until he ascended.

God bless.

Good afternoon S. Spencer,

Good discussion going on here. I happen to think that Jesus has eternally been the chief Cornerstone of the Church, the Rock, as Paul says in 1 Cori. 10:4, that gave the "church in the wilderness" water ( Acts 7:38). so, from these Scriptures it seems that the "church" was present in the Exodus with Jesus being the Rock. I have been taught that not only does the work of Jesus on the cross reach forward to be efficacious to us, but also reaches back, even to Adam and Eve, to bring God's grace and forgiveness to mankind throughout history. This is a mystery of sorts. But those who believed in God in the O.T. were justified by faith just like us, as Paul states in several places ( Rom. 4 and Heb. 11). So, those that were justified by faith in the O.T. comprised the Church in the O.T. just as we who are justified by faith now comprise the Church in this age. They did not need to be born after Jesus' crucifixion to receive God's favor and grace, which only what we have to go on anyway.

Sometimes, it may be that we think too narrowly about the beginnings of the church, thinking chronologically, that it had to have begun after the crucifixion. But God does not always operate within chronological parameters in matters of salvation.

I do think the disciples and apostles were "in Christ" before the crucifixion and were justified by faith in Him as well. Surely some disciples may have died before He was crucified. Does that mean that their faith in Christ was useless?

It isn't time frames that determines salvation nor do I think that it is so for determining when the Church began. Both are founded on Jesus, who is eternally our Savior and the foundation stone of the Church, even from before creation. But time does matter in some ways, since we live in a temporal world. Our thinking is often bound by time, too. But by the Spirit we can think in light of the eternality of God's plan of redemption for mankind. That is where I am coming from.

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for your perspective but I am not clear on what you are saying.

We all know Christ sacrifice is the way Adam and Eve and all of humanity is to be saved. My position on that has been clear and emphasized often. However there was no emphasis put on that in my post.

We understand they gathered in the wilderness in a religious congregation and that's called a church.

"ekklsia" a calling out that is (concretely) A POPULAR MEETING ESPECIALLY A RELIGIOUS CONGREGATION (JEWISH SYNAGOGUE OR CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly church.

Concerning the birth of Christ Church, Here in Matthew 16:18 Jesus is specific, he says he's going to build "HIS CHURCH"

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD "MY" CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And he says "HE WILL" build.

Meaning it hasn't been built yet.

When Israel gathered in the wilderness it wasn't the ministry of "RE"-conciliation as mentioned here in 2 Corinthians 5:18.

And they wasn't to go out to all the world teaching the cross.

Look what Paul says about the two ministries in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18. (The Apostles was part of the ministry which excelleth in glory.)

We know Jesus was the rock in the wilderness but different emphasis here in Ephesians 2:20. "He's building a Church to carry the Gospel out to the world."

A chief Cornerstone is the first and most important part of the foundation when a building is being erected.

Look what Peter says about it here in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

It was a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence to the Church in the wilderness but precious to us.

Yes the Apostles was Apostles in Gos eyes before the foundation of the world, But they didn't function as Apostles until they were commanded to wait on the Holyspirit and then sent out to all the world.

God bless.

Thanks Steven,

I appreciate your response. I read those Scriptures. I understand what they mean. I will study more on this.

You're welcome Gigi.

The emphasis of grace and the grafting in of the Gentiles is all through the old testament in types and allegorically. Even in the articles inside the tabernacle such as "The written commandments, manna, Arons rod that budded, and what overshadowed them was the mercy seat.

The Promises included them also.

Genesis 12:1-3

also the Ingathering, Shavu'ot, and Pentecost ( Exo 34:22; Num 28:26; Deu 16:10,16; Lev 23:15-20).

It's a great study.

God bless

Hi Fred.

You stated "The apostles chosen, were favored because of their faith , looking for the Messiah, this is the heart that Jesus wants!"

I have to disagree.

The faith they needed was faith in what Christ done on the cross.

"It hadn't happened yet". They all looked for their Messiah but didn't understand what was to come. (The Church and salvation by the death and resurrection of Christ )

Thus was a stumblingblock for them and this is what John the baptist ministry was all about. Baptism of repentance.

They was still under the old covenant, Christ hadn't died to bring in the new covenant. Hebrews 9:15.

You stated "this is the heart that Jesus wants!,

No man's heart is right until the Lord gives him a new heart.

Jeremiah 17:9

Ezekiel 36:26.

The Cornerstone wasn't laid yet, so the foundation couldn't be laid and there was nothing to build on and there was nothing to build with until after Christ rose and they were inpowered.

What was the duties before the resurrection? They tried following him but couldn't.

Paul was seeking to kill Christians until he was converted.

BUT!! When they were filled they had strength and died a mortars death.

Here's they're duties before the resurrection. John 6:28-29. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

They were chosen to be Apostles but the didn't function as an Apostles until They were filled with the Holyspirit.

God bless.

S. Spencer. It is written

I think their apostleship started even before Christ appointed them. The apostles chosen, were favored because of their faith , looking for the Messiah, this is the heart that Jesus wants!

A looking forward, even as we look toward Him in all things in heaven and earth. These would become the qualifications.

The foundation was laid in their hope of the promise of the coming Messiah, upon which the Holy Spirit would be given at PENTECOST. Now, a firm foundation in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Hi Fred.

One more important insert,

It is Christ faith in us. It's the Holyspirit that produces this.

Thanks and God bless.

S.Spencer. Amen brother the gift ministries in operation started in the grace

Administration the body of Christ.

S.Spencer. Amen Brother the church of Grace started pentecost and the

Gift ministries.

Hi Henry,

I was just reading in Exodus 32-34 in the past few days and we see that God did extend His grace and mercy towards the Israelites, so it was in effect with the Church in the wilderness ( acts 7:38). I happen to think that the "age of grace" spans all of human history. I sense that you are thinking of the administration of grace as being a time period or dispensation rather than God's administration of His grace throughout history. But, there is something to be said for the period of history after Jesus' death and resurrection being a time of fulfillment of this administration of grace, but that does not mean that it did not exist or operate prior to this time. John the Baptist would certainly have been under grace, as Jesus proclaimed Him to be the greatest person to come along in human history. I do not really wish to engage in a lengthy discussion about dispensationalism in this thread, as I think it is outside of the focus of this discussion, it being when did the apostles become apostles and when did the church begin. You can see my post to S. Spencer to read more about my perspective. Have a good evening.