Bible Discussion Thread

Part 1

Hello dear brothers/sisters.

Some thoughts...

John 14:26

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

The above verse is often misinterpreted by many christians mainly in the reborn section of christianity, since the main stream denominations have a solid and unchangable theology(R or W). Many believers take the above verse especially the phrase "he (the Holly Spirit) shall teach you all things" as something that happens personally to individuals. So they(we) think that every thought, explanation, interpretation,etc that pops in our mind is literally given by the Spirit. We claim that we have a genuine love to understand the Word of God, so God replies back to our search for His truth, by revealing His truth to every person that looks for that Truth. But is that so? Does that is that is meant by the above verse? Well, not really. If that was the case then everybody would come to the same result. But what we see in practice is that there are so many and so much different beliefs between us that they are often like the day infront of night. But why? Isn't God's Word not right? Isn't that a promise from God? So what is happening? We often attribute the various beliefs to a non genuine love for the truth, manipulating verses to fit our own ideas, ignorance sometimes of the Word of God and many other that we like to think that others do, not us.

The truth is that the above verse is applicable TO THE CHURCH, not to any individual. God has placed the ministries in the church like pastors, teachers, apostles, evangelists, prophets to ... Ephesians 4:12-14 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ ...".

What is a church? It is Christ-followers or the "body of Christ". It may be all followers on Earth, or a subset, regional group, local group, ministry group, study group, or even 2 or 3 people as indicated by Matthew 18:20. People can and do belong to multiple church groups, formally or informally. The church is made up of individuals. Each individual is fully responsible for his or her own actions including choosing to follow Christ and choosing to do what He says. There is Biblical support for those who teach to have a higher burden of responsibility, but I do not believe they are directly responsible for others' choices and salvation.

In any organization of people the larger it gets it encourages corruption, including sin. We have seen this play out plenty of times with megachurches who may have started well but went astray. Similar to government waste, church organizations can become wasteful, lose their purpose, and become and unhealthy and toxic places. So, I think its prudent for people to use discernment and put their faith, trust and hope in God, not in an organization of people who still wrestle with sin. Their attending church should be for the right motives and not because someone is hitting them over the head with a bat guilt and shame. There is also risk if too much attention is put on an organization instead of a personal walk with Christ, that someone's faith might transform into a ritualistic religion tied to that entity's specific rites and rituals.

Matthew 12:50 is an interesting quote by Jesus about who is His brother and mother.

I agree with you Adam. I just wanted to point out the wrong attitude some have who believe that being outside a churh, without any obvious reason, is OK.

I was an Eastern Orthodox christian for a long time. So I was tought things the way that that church believes. When I was reborn and studied the Bible, there were many things I couldn't understand, and many things I misunderstood or came up with wrong ideas. Who was going to teach me properly the Gospel? I had to trust in a church. When I realized that, unlike the Orthodox Church, there are many many reborn churches with different beliefs, I asked God "Which one is your true church, how can I figure it out?" I believe I got an answer and that answer was " Open my Bible and read, the church that is similar to one described is my true church, the one that do not fits to the ancient church is not mine" Maybe I imagined that? Maybe but the fact is that what I think I was told made perfect sence. So I chose a church that I believe teaches the Bible properly.

I firmly believe that one needs to be in communion with other christians, among other to find and offer love, compassion, support, etc. If a christian is not in a fellowship with people similar to him then he will look for that company outside the church, in the sinful world. Figuratively, if you place a non-smoker in a company of smokers after sometime he will become a smoker himself too, and the opposite.

Anyway, thanks for your response. I agree with you.

Oh My !!!! You can't unread this.

Well I guess we can forget about Sons and Daughters prophesying now, unless of course they are approved by "The Church"

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present thyself approved to God, a workman without cause for shame, rightly dividing [dissecting] the word of truth.

Dear Luke

1 Corinthians 12:7-11

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal(it means the church).

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles; to another PROPHESY; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Ephesians 4:11

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, PROPHETS; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

The above gifts and ministries are to work inside the church, the Body of Christ, not outside individually. My opinion...

Please expound on the (church)

Are you referring to a place or a building?

Or as it should be, the true followers of christ.

The (body of christ and or church) is his people.

Those who are outside the (church and or body of christ) are those who have not yet accepted christ

With full repentance.

The Holy ghost works in the body of christ/church

That means his people, not a building.

With all the wonderful gifts of the spirit operating

In each individual's life according to the will of god for that person.

As when Jesus sent the apostles out in two's, filled with the holy ghost to preach the gospel.

The holy ghost and the gifts of the spirit are not only active in a building / church . aka place.

Not withstanding, I think it would be good for everyone to have a place or a church (building)to worship and to commune with like believers. Providing the truth according to the gospel is being preached and taught.

But I would also reference, where two or more gather together in my name so shall I be there.

That can be considered church.

Hello Jesse

Yes you are right, church is the people not the building. So the gifts are given to work during a congregation. That is why God gave them to His people. They are not for one's personal pleasure but for the saints gathered to worship God. They are to be communicated to all. Of course the gifts are not only active during a congregation. But will one be given a gift If he has never integrated himself in a congregation? What for? To whom shall he communicate the work of his gift? Paul always adresses his letters to churches, he never considers christians as lone persons.

The problem today, unlike the ancient times, is that there is not a unique church with a unique belief. Of course one can say that the universal church is all true christians dispersed in all sort of churches, but still I think there must be gifts active in the function of any real church/congregation. If you look at denominations like the R/Catholics and Orthodoxes you will notice that they function in a way completely different from that described in the Gospel. Priests and liturgies and all those. So where are the gifts in those churches? People in those churches hardly know one another, if they actually know anybody else apart from the ones who sit next to them. So whom shall the gifts serve? Also apart from the priest nobody else takes any part in the liturgy. People are only observers. That is why they are not given any gifts. They are dead churches like the church in Sardis. Only a small portion of them who try to do what they read in Gospel are saved but still they have never heard of spiritual gifts and their function in a congregation.

Jesse why wouldn't a christian want to be in a congregation? Certainly there must be one who is right in their eyes, unless there is a practical reason for not being able to do that. It is not good one to stay alone. We all need a christian community. To be with people similar to us. We have nothing in common with wordly people.

God Blessings.

Giannis

On the contrary it means A MAN, not everyone has eye's to see and ears to hear, and not everyone is suppose to have them it's why Jesus spoke in parables 's and why many are divided in interpretation.

God knew us before the foundation of the world meaning he knew us before this life, he knew who we stood for during the rebellion

You're implying that we have to be in THE CHURCH and listen to THE Church to receive the gifts of teaching of all things from the Holy Spirit? When in John 14:23 Is speaking to the individual, Hence the phrase (A MAN) and the word (He, and Him)

22 Judas saith unto Him, not Iscariot, Lord, how comes it to pass that Thou art about to manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My word: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abiding places beside him.

24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's Which sent Me.

25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding [yet] beside you.

26 But the Comforter, which is The Spirit, The Holy, Whom the Father will send in My name, that One shall teach you all things, and put you in mind of, whatsoever I have said unto you. (This would be scripture, and the recalling of what you READ in scripture, and not what THE CHURCH tells you what it means) or we'd all be lost.

The Comforter IS for the Individual, and well as the body or else we'd all be lost.

JESUS SAID IF A MAN LOVE ME AND KEEP MY WORD WE WILL COME UNTO HIM AND MAKE OUR ABIDING PLACES BESIDE HIM

Hi Luke

I will reverse your question and ask you that. Are you implying that the Spirit gives His spiritual gifts and annoints ministers outside the church, to also work outside the church? What for? To teach on the streets to the world? (And then what? What are they supposed to ask new believers to do? To go to a church or stay alone? Or leave it to people to decide?) The people who teach on the streets are evangelists and apostles and still they belong to a congregation, they are not astray, they have a basis where they belong and where they start their work from. And their purpose is to make people believe in Jesus and integrate them in the Body of Christ, the Church. Have you seen in the Book of Acts, christians stay and work as individuals? Has Paul suggested that to anybody? Wherever he went he established churches and his letters were directed to churches

I understand that the problem nowadays is that that there isn't a unique church (as an oganization) as in the early times. There are many, having all sort of differnet beliefs. But still I think one can find a church that is very close to what they consider is a right church and avoid the "strange" ones. I think we must integrate ourselves in a congregation, not only for the teaching but for the support and communion as well. If that is not practically possible, then OK. We could find other ways to "be" in the church. Example, my church (also others) has a radio station and broadcasts 24 hours a day, teachings and hymns. On the internet as well. We often meet on zoom to teach, talk, pray together. Those are very useful for elderly who cannot go to the congregation. That zoom thing started due to covid but still many believers keep communicating that way. We can surly find a way to be with other christians. like say this site. But the problem with this site is that there are different beliefs that often confuse people especially new christians. And it is not a church. But still it is very helpful.

GBU

Giannis

I think I know what this is about, I get it : You initially related the individual to believer, and Christian which would make them not individual after all, only individual to your congregation, otherwise you have used non-believers, which changes the perspective.

Many times if you're not careful A church can pass over a very well qualified individual to serve as an Elder or a Bishop, simply because they do not understand God's Word. Luke!

JESUS SAID IF A MAN LOVE ME AND KEEP MY WORD WE WILL COME UNTO HIM AND MAKE OUR ABIDING PLACES BESIDE HIM

Giannis

In 1 Corinthians 12

Paul is, he's establishing Church's, and has received a letter about the Church in Corinth that it's got problems, and there's a few clicks,,, and Paul is teaching here, how (A Church) should be set up which IMO is how you should have implied it, and not with (THE CHURCH)

That being said, the many member body of Christ is with many gifts (yes), and with many function's (yes) amen, just as is the human body,,, the arm does one thing while the leg does another with Christ being The Head...not everyone will receive the gifts each one brings, because The Church has been infiltrated by pretenders, so a true body is hard to establish especially when that body is of the Love Feast with hidden rocks.