Bible Discussion Thread

Hello Henry.

I thought I saw a post of yours to me a few hours ago but I cannot find it now(?)

Anyway you asked why a church servant has to resign if a member of his family leaves the faith. Is he responsible for that?

Let's see what are the requirements for somebody to become an elder or a deacon (also a pastor since a pastor is selected from the body of elders).

Titus 1:5-9 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I had appointed thee:If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, HAVING FAITHFUL CHILDREN not accused of riot or unruly. For a BISHOP must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."

As we see an elder is also called bishop in the early church.

Also in 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Pay attention to verses 4-5 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?"

For deacons 1 Timothy 8-13. Verse 12 "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

We see that God places on elders and deacons the responsibility for the faith and the right governing of their house.

Another requirement is that they have to be husband of one wife. That means that if their wifes die they have to resign since they can not keep their ministry if they get married again.

The procedure in my church in such cases is that if our children for any reason leave the faith we wait for sometime (not specified) to return. But if after a reasonable amount of time they don't, then the church servants have to quit their ministry.

GBU

Hello Luke

I guess you mean something else when you say that God is a divorcee.

Before going to our topic of discussion let's see if divorce is allowed according to the Gospel, and if yes in which cases.

Matthew 5:31-32.

Here it says that the only reason divorce is allowed is due adultery, not for any other reason. If the pair separates for any other reason and gets married again to smb else then in God's eyes this is adultery. God does not accept the separation, for Him the pair are still married together nomatter what churches do.

Next question. I was divorced because my wife went with another guy, can I marry now to another woman?

Answer. 1 Corinthians 7:10-11. Verse 11 says that if a woman is divorced (permitted only due to adultery) then she must stay unmarried or go back to her husband. Same with men. No remarriage is allowed by the Lord even if the separation was legal by the Gospel.

There is only one case that remarriage can be accepted. Romans 7:1-3. Here it says only in the case that one of the pair dies the other person if free to marry again.

So lets go back to what we were discussing.

1. About children

The verses in Titus are clear. A believer can only be elder if his children are in faith. Do you believe that this can change after he has become an elder for sometime and now can remain an elder even if his children are gone away? So different things are required when one is to become an elder and when he has already became one? It doesn't seem right to me.

Deacons. Elders are selected from the body of deacons, that is why the requirements for both elders and deacons are precisely the same. 1 Timothy 3:1-13

Pastors. They are selected from the body of elders. Same requirements.

2. Wifes. The text says " husband of one wife". So it must be "one" and "a wife".

Definitely he must have (not had) a wife, not divorced, not a widower.

One wife means that he cannot keep his ministry if his wife has died or gone away from the house (or has left the faith).

GBU

Giannis

I apologize, I should have dissected Matthew 5:32 more closely.

You see their are exceptions to divorcing without causing one to sin on one another, and it is fornication.

The verse should be interpreted as Jesus saying (except) for fornication, if one takes the word (saving) back to it's original language it means (except) for fornicating

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving/except for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

So you see there is an exception to divorce, God put away Israel for fornicating/adultery, and He forgave her so she can be.

Bible Hub interlinear study.

God divorced Israel when they broke the covenant: Jeremiah 3:8 Though she saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding

Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Matthew 5:31 It was said, 'Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That every one that shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to

commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If one truly repents, I believe ALL sins are forgiven, but I guess churches don't see it that way, they have their rules, can't change that. sry!

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn ye again to Me, that your sins may be (blotted out), in order that ... times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Then Peter said unto them, "Repent [change your mind for the better and morally], and be baptized every one of

you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the free gift of THE Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 3:12 Must be another rule of The Church, because Titus doesn't state Children must be in the Faith.

The verse states "well managed children", and not "Children of Faith". Where do you get Children must be in the Faith out of ruling their children, and their own houses? In verse 12

Managing their children is the same as ruling, It means (Well Respected) honorable,commendably,kind enough,honestly,usually morally.

Hi Luke

1. Figuratively God married Israel, also Jesus will marry the church. It means that we are going to live together with God, like a man with his wife. arriage in those cases is a symbolism, it is not litteral.

2. Fiction.I made a mistake and stole my neighbors car while I was a believer. Then I repented for my behavior. Can I keep the car? I think this is a good example that could give an answer about believers (who knew God's Will) who remarry and then repent.They must correct the mistake they made, they knew, they didn't have ignorance, no excuse. There is a difference though with people that were not believers when they were remarried and afterwards believed. They stay as they are, married. Because they thought the new marriage was OK,(while the believers knew what they did was illegal). The aim of God is not to split a family that was made while in ignorance but keep families together.

3. Isn't it not enough that the requirement for faithful children is written in Titus and not in Timothy? When Paul writes something to Thessalonians and he doesn't write the same thing to Philippians, that means that it is not valid for Philippians too? How could one has his children in obedience and rule well his house if his children are worldly? If his children, say want to go out to a club and get drunk and bring their girlfriends home, is that a good ruling or managing? What is that pastor supposed to do in such a case? Young men in the world do not have the same morality as the ones in the faith. They can do all sort of strange things that the world consider as normal. Would you accept him as a pastor in your church? God's servants must have nothing to be blamed of, himselves and their families. They must be an example to the congregation.

GBU.

Giannis

I don't know circumstance's, but for what it's worth,

God is a divorcee,,, I find nothing in Titus 1 disqualifying one of their leadership...

1 Timothy 3:4 Is about subjecting one's children to honesty.

5 is in regard to discipline within one's house, does not pertain to controlling kids outside.

12 The deacons, which are the helpers of the Bishop, not hindrance, Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife; widower's, and divorcees, are still one or none.

Jeremiah 3:8 God is a divorcee, and if God is a divorcee and cannot serve as a leader ? don't buy it

Romans 11 God's gifts are given without repentance,,, if God gives one the gift of leadership, it's given without repentance.

for what it's worth;

Hi again Luke. Personally if I hear somebody saying that God told them something or asked them for something that is in contrast to God's written Word, no mattter who that person is, I will call them liars.unless they have got a really big imagination.

There is noway God tells you something different that what He has told you in His Gospel, noway. In Revelation the pastor of the church of Ephesus was told good words by the Lord because he tested people that said they were apostles and he found that they were liars. How did he find that? He compared their teachings (and their behaviours) to the written Word. The Gospel is our ruler, we use it to see if something is right or wrong.

So there is no way that God approved smb to become a pastor, say without him being married, as long as his written Word says the opposite.

Visions, prophesies, revelations and so on outside God's Word are always fake.

GBU