Bible Discussion Thread

Some people believe that in Rev 3:10 Jesus is saying that if we believe in him that he will protect us from the great tribulation and they use this to support the notion that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation. But in Rev 3:10 Jesus speaks about rewarding the Philadelphian church for what they have done BEFORE receiving this message and not what they will do in the future. This message is addressed specifically to the Philadelphian church in Asia Minor and nobody else. So, to say that Rev 3:10 is referring to us Christians today, is an error which adds something to Rev. 3:10, which it has not said or implied.

Rev. 3:10 says

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Part 1

Hellow Antony.

Although I don't agree with you about the church going through the great tribulation (but this is another topic), I agree with you about those 7 churches in Revelation

Notice. In verse 1:7 says "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia...".

Now Jesus says to John to write His words and send them to those 7 churces. If the churches are symbolic for the history of the church through the ages and not litteral, just imagine say the pastor of Sardis who maybe was doing well in his ministry to receive a message from Jesus telling him that he is dead. He will definately die of heart attack. The pastor of Ephessus? If he had not fallen from his first love to read Jesus telling hin that? Imagine if Philadelphia was not doing well and Jesus congratulated them? How about Antipas the martyr, was he symbolic for something? It is obvious that those churches were litterally existing at that time and Jesus adressed some issues there, He knows they have to be corrected.

But the problem ia always initiating from what Jesus said to Philadelphians."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

But what is it meant by "the world" and "the earth"?

Colossians 1:6 "Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, ...:" also verse 23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Romans 9:17-18 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went INTO ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto ENDS OF THE WORLD

Part 2

Anthony

So what is meant in those verses when saying the whole world, about every creature under heaven, ends of the world, into all earth,...?

When Paul (and the ancient people) talks about the whole world he primarily means the Roman world, the Roman empire, the west civilized world. Everybody and everything outside that region was not worth to be mentioned of (plus the fact that they had a limited knowledge of the actual size of the earth and the existing nations).

Now what is it that God protected that church from in reality? Maybe a general persecution in the empire, some major catastrophies, some big wars with enemies to Romans? One has to read the history of the late 1st and early 2nd centuary AD to find out.

But to be honest I am wondering, why Jesus included those warnings to those churches in a book written about the end times? Surely He could do it in another way. Is it possible that the actual litteral churches were also a symbol for the church history. Facts do seem to coincide with the actual church history(?). And we also know that in Bible often real events are also a symbol for something else that happened later in the future.

Now about the great tribulation. Christians have so far gone through persecutions and tribulations many many times. Also through harsh times due to wars, famine, physical catastrophies like the rest of the world. But the great tribulation is something else. It is not just a tribulation. It is a tribulation due to God's wrath. It will be caused this time by God, not people. And I cannot think God sends His wrath on earth while His people are still there, to suffer His wrath together with sinners. This is what the scripture says about Noah and Lot. First God took away His people and then sent His wrath to those places. Plus the fact that we now live under Grace. Grace and Wrath do not fit together. First His Grace has to be removed with the rapture of the saints and then His Wrath will be sent to the sinful world.

GBU

Amen Giannis.

You've touched on some very good points!

God bless you.

Hello Giannis

If you read Revelation you will see that john received two separate revelations. One which was specifically dealing with the seven churches and what would be their fate in the near future.

The second revelation begins in Rev 4:1 and is not specific to the seven churches who are addressed in chapters 2and 3.

We cannot build sound doctrine on assumptions or conjecture so we must not add to what has been said in revelation bearing in mind the warnings for those who add or take away from what has been written in Revelation.

If you read Rev 6:12, onwards, you will see events that correlate with Christ's description of his second coming as recorded in mat 24. which Christ says will happens after the great tribulation. And if you read on down to Rev 6:17 you will see the day of wrath is mentioned. So, the day of wrath happens when Christ returns after the great tribulation. The great tribulation is not the day of wrath.

You will notice the angels recued Lot on the very same day that God poured out his wrath on the unbelievers. There was no delay. And so it will be when Christ returns after the great tribulation. He will send his angels at the sound of the trumpet to gather his elect before pouring out his wrath on the unbelievers. This is the rapture and it happens on the day of wrath.

Hi Anthony..Gbu.. But Lemme give ya my slant on the 2 nd coming and the day of the Lord....Jesus said i come to bring FIRE on the Earth and what if its already kindled...Its His Wrath that we need,...Whom the Lord loveth he chastens...But if ye be without chastisment then are ye bastards and not sons... Hebrews 12 :49....His Wrath is his love for humanity....Even in the natural we chastise our kids simply b/c we love them....Thats y he is saying i come to bring fire on the earth, everybody needs his chastisment, his baptism of the H.G. AND FIRE....Jesus plainly tells us Ever sinner will have their part in the lake of fire...And every person whos name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, TY Jesus, its simply what we need as our God is a CONSUMING FIRE But our God is also Spirit his which is his baptism of the H.G. and Fire.

..... Malachi 3: 1 kjv...Behold i send my Messenger that shall prepare the way before ME .Even the Messenger of the Covenant whom ye delight in..Behold he shall come...But who may abide the day of his coming ( 2 nd coming ) Who shall stand when he appears, For he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP...A cleansing soap. Chastisment...H.G. FIRE ( the blood of the lamb ) For there is nothin that can cleanse us like his blood....Tho your Sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow...Without his wrath we cannot be made clean...Whom the lord loveth he Chastens with his baptism of the H.G. and Fire ..and the scripture cannot be broken.

If you endure Chastisment God dealeth with you as Sons for what son is he whom the FATHER Chastens not ( his wrath and his love ) ..Whom the Lord Loveth he Chastens .. Hebrews 12 :49...Judgement must began at the house of God which is our hearts and minds..His baptism of the H.G. and fire is our new heart and new spirit....That New Creature which is the manchild the H.G. THAT IS GONNA RULE ALL NATIONS...This is the rapture...Unless ya receive the KINGDOM OF GOD as a lil Child.

,

Amen Brother Alex:

Seeing, they see not, and hearing, they hear not.

John 9:39 ...for JUDGEMENT I am come to this world, that they which see not might see; and they which see might be made blind.

John 16:8 And when he is come (the Holy Ghost, Christ the second coming), he will reprove the world of SIN .....

John 16:9 Of SIN, because not on me (the words of Christ).

If creation would only believe God's words, and understand JUDGEMENT, and SIN, and the WRATH of God.

God has blessed you with his understanding, and his grace and his mercy, and a little child shall lead them.

Amen Bro. PROPHECY...GBU....You are so right PROPHECY they don't realize that the wrath of God is the LOVE OF GOD.... Hebrews 12:6...Whom the Lord Loveth he Chastens.....And scourged every son whom he receiveth.. Hebrews 12:6....If ye be without Chastisment then are you bastards and not sons....Now are we the sons of God....Even in the natural we chastise our kids simply b/c we love them...Now no Chastening for the present seems to be joyous but grievous... Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount ZION THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, That HEAVENLY JERUSALEM..To huge host of Angels....PROPHECY GBU MY BRO.

What did the 2 Churches teach that the other 5 did not?

However there is other scripture to encourage that GOD is able to deliver: 2Peter 2:5-9, we are to be good soldiers, endure: 2Timothy 2:3, 2Timothy 4:5, 1Peter 2:19, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13,

Matthew 24, Mark 13, Jesus explains specifically it's after the great tribulation He will gather together His elect.

Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 2:11, Hebrews 11,

GOD's WORD is called a living word by many because of it's HIS amazing ability to be relevant today, prophetic & historical

Psalms 22, for example, Psalms 41:9 King David being betrayed by Saul, yet predicting Jesus' betrayer

I see Revelation significant for today & more than simple coincidence when Philadelphia is researched online only USA references are found, being the only significant Philadelphia in our time, the the very foundation of an otherwise unmentioned World Power was founded on "in GOD We TRUST" in Philadelphia, where both our Declaration of Independence, The US Constitution were signed & US Mint prints faithfully those very words upon all currency. Revelation 3:8, The Liberty bell that has inscription about the Biblical Jubilee, Leviticus 25:10, also remains today ironically cracked._._. Philadelphia also the proposed Capital of USA, still debated today of the legitimacy of the meeting that decided a different venue. Song today trendy "The room where it happenes" Revelation 3:7-13, 2020 2nd largest Jewish population in the World is USA, Many claims of Jewish heritage in movie, banking, business, judiciary yet deny GOD's laws & justice ect.

Revelation Philadelphia, very interesting to me.

yes this message is for all believers and to understand more john 15 Jesus has also explained that if you abide in him he will abide in you.

he will give you strength to overcome because you have kept his word.

Hello Duncan, Revelation 3:10 is not addressed to present day Christians.

In Rev: 1:19 We see that John is told to write about things that were current and about things that would happen in the future.

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Rev: 1:19 )

So, a clear distinction is made between what was current and what would happen in the future. So where do we draw the line between the messages to the churches and the prophecies concerning what would happen in the future? We are given the answer in Rev: 4:1

1"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

So, in Rev. 2and 3 each of the seven churches received a message specific to that church and it's circumstances at that particular time and are separate to the prophecies concerning the future.

This is my understanding.

Hi Anthony.

I just wanted to share my view on the seven Churches in Revelation ch 2 and 3.

1st. They all were local Churches.

The Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ. These letters also is to and applies to the complete Church Era.

In ch 1 vs19 we have "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I believe that is what John did.

That is what he wrote in

Revelation 1:12-17.

In Revelation 2 and 3 he wrote about the things which are.

(What's existing) "Church Era, throughout history "

( And the things which shall be hereafter; )

Starts with Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

( And it carries on throughout the rest of the book. )

I also believe the phrase "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." suggest this is also written to us.

( He that hath an ear! )

Also "let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES." ( Plural ) suggest that all seven letters apply to all seven Churches, It's admonitory. All seven apply to all of us. And the letters lay out the history of the Church. ( In order.)

God bless.

Hello Steven

When we read the first verse of 'Revelation' we see Jesus being given the Revelation which he is to shew unto His servants concerning the "things which must shortly come to pass."

So, we see the timing being set for what is to be written to the seven churches, after which John identifies the recipients of this revelation when he says

4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: "

This will be the first revelation given to John and which Jesus Christ signified by his angel unto his servant John:

It is specific to the SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA

There is no reason or cause to believe that each church represents an era of time in the future. The text says no such thing. It is a false supposition to say that the letters lay out the history of the Church. ( In order.) This supposition is not even remotely supported by the text.

When the text says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.", it is obviously referring to the churches who are being addressed.



Of course, the churches could learn from each other's messages in a general sense but in a specific sense, each of the seven messages has a very deliberate message for each individual church and their own individual circumstances at the time of writing.

We can learn from Revelation as we consider future events, but we should be careful not to add any suppositions which could distort what the text is saying.

'Revelation' uses much symbolism so I would advise anybody who is studying Revelation that they should do so in the light of the scriptures where the teaching of Christ and his apostles is clear and easier to understand, so that they don't erroneously depart from God's truth.

I hope that you find this comment helpful.

Hi Anthony.

I agree there were local Churches, and these letters was written to them. I believe these 7 Churches represents the complete Church throughout history with 7 representing completeness. #7 is significant throughout scripture.

Also, by what is omitted, (Several other Churches such as the Church in Antioch, Rome, certainly the Church in Jerusalem. And many others founded in scripture.)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants' things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

" Things which must shortly come to pass" cannot be designated to just chapters 1,2 and 3. The word "shortly" used here I believe is the same word used in Luke 18:8 "I tell you that he will avenge them SPEEDILY. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Speedily) is the same word used here in Revelation.

Vs 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this "PROPHECY" and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (This is a prophecy.) so it takes you beyond a local application.

I'm not trying to change your view; I'm just presenting mine.

And as I mentioned I believe Revelation 1:19 gives the chronological order of the book of Revelation. (All 22 chapters.)

The messages are a composite, and they had a direct msg to the Churches in Johns Day, and all 7 letters are appliable for us and all churches throughout church history as well the individual. And yes, the text is structured that way.

Ephesus represents the Apostolic Church; Laodicea represents the Apostate Church. I'm running out of space, perhaps I will share more on "The view I hold and why I hold it later.

However, I'm sure you've heard of this viewpoint so I'm not trying to sell it.

God bless.

Hello Stephen, thank you for your comment.

It's important to read Luke 18:8 in it's proper context. The context for v8 is given in v7.

God is seen to delay until the time comes when he will avenge his people at which time he will then act speedily. This will happen when Jesus returns, at which time, he will send His angels to gather his elect on the very same day that he will pour out his wrath on the unbelievers.

It will be just like it was when God sent his angels to rescue Lot before pouring out his wrath on Sodom. The angels removed Lot from Sodom on the very same day that God poured out his wrath on Sodom.

Please tell me why you believe the 7 Churches in Revelation represent the complete Church throughout history?

The text makes no such claim and to say that it does is to misrepresent what Christ has said.

So, I'm interested to know where you sourced this erroneous belief.



PS Revelation 1:19, doesn't give the chronological order of the book of Revelation, because in the very first chapter we see that Revelation 1:7 points to the return of Jesus Christ which is an example of how Revelation is not written in strict chronological order.

As Christians, the doctrine we hold must stand up to biblical scrutiny and must be provable from the scriptures otherwise we risk

being deceived by false doctrine.

I look forward to your reply.

Hi Anthony.

Part 2 of my previous reply.

I joined in on this thread without reading the original post. A mistake I made and something I rarely do.

I thought it was centered around Revelation 2 and 3. But after reviewing it during my last reply I realized it was a rebuttal to whoever uses these verses to pitch their

pre-trib view.

If I would have payed attention I would have never engaged.

However I've engaged and just about ready to disengage.

Before I go I would like to mention you said something to Brother Chris that puzzled me.

Your quote;

So, I believe that Christ's reassurance to the Philadelphian church was that He would keep them from succumbing to the temptation/trial which was to come.

Temptation/trial which was to come?

You put this trial in their present time.

But the phrase "WHICH WAS TO COME" puts this future.

It makes no sense if the phrase is used if he's talking about a Temptation/trial that always existed.

Look what Jesus says about this temptation when answering his disciples.

Let's pick up the context here in Matthew 24:3

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, WHEN shall these things be? AND WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?"

( Three questions)

My focus is on the "when" and the description of this time period.

For lack of character space click on the link.

Matthew 24:14-20

Matthew 24:21 "FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22-28

Matthew 24:29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30.

Revelation 3:10 says he would keep them from THE HOUR. ( That time )

Revelation 3:11 Parallels with the answers given in Matthew 24:29-30.

God bless.

Hi Anthony.

Thanks for your breakdown of Luke 18:8. However I was just pulling out one word out of the text and that word is "Speedily". My attempt was to show this is the word used in Revelation 1:1 when you used that verse and presented it as a time line.

Quoting you:

So, we see the timing being set for what is to be written to the seven churches, End quote.

My argument is shortly doesn't present an Era.

The word Speedily in Luke 18:8 is the same word used in Revelation 1:1 also in many other places in scripture.

The way you interpreted the scripture in Luke using word speedily/shortly is the same way you should interpret it in Revelation 1:1.

You stated;

"God is seen to delay UNTIL THE TIME COMES when he will avenge his people AT WHICH TIME HE WILL "THEN" ACT SPEEDILY. end quote.

In Revelation 1:1 it's used the same way

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must Speedily come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This presents something to happen fast when the time comes.

You asked why do I believe the 7 Churches in Revelation represent the complete Church throughout history?

Anthony I disclosed that in my earlier post and gave my reasoning.

I also said Revelation 1:19 outlines the book and that outline is explained in my post.

I said he who has an ear speaks to all!

You said "no it don't."

I said Revelation 1:3 presents the coming events as prophesy .

You said "no it don't."

This can go on and on.

It surprises me you never heard of this view considering you opened the thread with this-

"Some people believe that in Rev 3:10 Jesus is saying that if we believe in him that he will protect us from the great tribulation and they use this to support the notion that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation."

Also considering this is a widely held view.

I have one more post.

Give me a minute.

God bless.

Hello Anthony,

I do agree with your analysis on this text. I believe it is pretty clear, as you stated that these words of Jesus are to the churches that existed at that time in history in Asia and specifically so. I do not believe that this texts speaks to the church eras through the centuries, either. But, as you also stated, we can learn from these words to these churches for our congregations in our own times. Thank you for a very good and measured response on this subject. Appreciated.

Thanks, GiG, for your encouraging comment.

Hi Anthony. Could you expand on Revelation 3:10 please? Given your understanding on it, the verse sounds like the the Philadelphian Church is promised to be non-existent by the time "the hour of temptation which shall come upon the whole world" takes place.

But if they're promised to be kept from that hour while they were in existence, then the question, 'when did that hour arrive that would come upon & test the whole world?' Was history remiss by not recording that great event or maybe we've misinterpreted "hour of temptation"? It gets confusing.

Hello Chris, I believe that the hour of temptation/trial was experienced by the generation who were alive at that time in terms of the persecution of the Christian church which was ongoing.

If we read the message in Revelation 2, to the church in Smyrna we see that they were to undergo terrible persecution where many of them would be imprisoned and were told to be faithful unto death.



Revelation 2:10

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

I believe that persecution of the church is a catalyst for trial and temptation when Christians are subjected to much suffering. The temptation for some Christians might be to depart from the Christian faith in order to escape persecution.

I believe that this testing is what is being referred to in Rev. 3:10 with the promise of escaping the temptation, i.e., that they would not yield or succumb to it.

The majority of the world's population would have been compliant to the Roman Empire and its edicts and in doing so would have yielded to the trial and would have succumbed to the temptation of being at peace with the Romans to the exclusion of practising the Christian faith.



So, in this context the whole world was under trial, l but I believe that the promise to the Philadelphian church ensured that they would not succumb to the temptation of being compliant to the Romans for the sake of escaping persecution.

The author of the martyrdom of Polycarp mentions a would-be martyr who instead chose to make a sacrifice to the Roman gods in order to save his own life.

Here we see a person succumbing to the pressure of compliance to a Roman edict.

The world has experienced many trials including two world wars, but I believe that Revelation 3:10 is concerned with the specific church which existed at that time and the trials of that time.

Thanks for the clarification Anthony. I note your references that the Church in Smyrna was also directly spoken to as was the Philadelphian Church, so there were clear warnings & assurances about the sufferings that lay ahead for them.

Yet in Revelation 3:10, the warning wasn't only to the Church but that the whole world would be affected at this time. Maybe the 'world' applied only to those parts where the Roman Empire had its reach, which included western & southern Europe, northern parts of Africa & west towards Assyria. If so, then I agree that within that empire there were several emperors who were exceedingly cruel to Christians and the churches would have faced much persecution; but this Church would have been spared because of their faithfulness to the Lord.

But if the 'world' included all nations then and now (as the verse seems to suggest), the reference in this verse would have both a present application (for the Churches then) & a future application, which would be a specific testing of where the world's allegiance & faith lie. As that Church remained faithful and was kept safe from that time of testing, the Church today (the true Body of Christ) would also be kept from Satan's onslaught that is to come. So from that verse, I see the salvation of the Lord for those who are truly His, keeping themselves unspotted from the world.

Hello Chris

When Christ says, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation," He is not saying that the Philippian church would be kept from Satan's onslaught.

. "Accounts report that eleven Christians from Philadelphia were martyred alongside Polycarp in 156 AD."

In fact, it is often obedient Christians who are most tested in the world because they have a strong testimony and will not yield to the devil.

The apostles are a good example of this because accounts state that most of them suffered violent deaths when they were martyred for their testimony for Christ.

So, I believe that Christ's reassurance to the Philadelphian church was that He would keep them from succumbing to the temptation/trial which was to come.



Did you know that every two hours a Christian is martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ. So even today we see that faithful Christians suffer persecution. So, it is a mistake to conclude that the present-day church will not suffer from the devil's onslaught.

I believe that we are entering a time when the persecution of Christians will become more widespread, and we need to pray that Christ will keep us through the coming trial so that our faith doesn't fail.



Our salvation as Christians is not salvation from trials and tribulation. To the contrary, Paul says that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."



Throughout history, true Christians have been martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ.

It is through enduring tribulation that our faith is tested and approved to the glory of Jesus Christ.

Events seem to be GOD's timing = Noah Genesis 6,7, Abraham 14 generations, to David as references in Matthew 1:17, including within those 400+ years in Egypt, Abraham himself being old before birth of Isaac. & Genesis 15:16.

Revelation 6:9,10,11, Revelation 17:14-17, James 5:7,

it appears to me that the final martyr of GOD's beloved, will ignite. Like the other events in the written Word.

Hebrews 1:13, Matthew 24, Mark 13,

As a loving Father, HE appears to be balancing the mercy of HIS will, that none should perish of the people; Matthew 18:14, 2Peter 3:1-18, & mercy for HIS children, Hebrews 11:6-40,