Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Prosperity - 2 years ago
    Question to Sincere Bible Believers (1)

    If Christ came and did away with The Law as some people teach, why were The Apostles celebrating Pentecost in Acts 1 after Christ had already ascended into Heaven ?
  • Baker - In Reply - 2 years ago
    As my brethren has stated , Jesus didn't come to change the law of Moses . He came and fulfilled the ceremonial laws . Sacrifices , Blood ordinances , Circumcisions ... these are all of the heart now . they were all nailed to the cross with Him (praise be) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14
  • Prosperity - In Reply - 2 years ago
    @Baker



    If all of The Laws were nailed on the cross, why were The Apostles keeping The Pentecost/The Feast of Firstfruits ?

    In addition, why did Peter say that he had never eaten anything that was unclean during the vision of the different beasts ? If The Laws were nailed on the cross, why were The Apostles still keeping The Commandments after Christ had ascended into Heaven ?
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    If I might add my thoughts to your questions to Baker.

    In Acts 2:1, "when the day of Pentecost was fully come", we find that the apostles had planned to be together in "one place". We don't find them bringing in their wheat harvest as required in celebration of Shavuot, or even participating in any celebrations pertaining to it, but rather, in waiting together on the appointed day for the coming of the Holy Spirit as Jesus instructed them ( Luke 24:49). So, the mention of them being together on Pentecost, simply meant that that was the day so appointed for them to gather (50 days after Passover).

    Acts 10:11-15. It would take time & probably several lessons to completely extract the demands of the Old Covenant from the apostles & those of the Jews who had come to faith in Christ. But the vision that Peter saw & interpreted to him by Jesus, was not confined to clean & unclean foods, but to what the Jews regarded as anyone outside Jewry to be unclean ( Acts 10:28; Galatians 2:11-17). These were no doubt difficult lessons to learn, as things that are not of faith in Christ are removed from our minds & hearts. I know that I had to re-learn & deal with several issues after leaving the old life behind in 1979.

    The Commandments. There's a difference in keeping the Commandments & keeping the Commandments to save us. Colossians 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross". I understand that when the 'handwriting of ordinances' were removed & nailed, it didn't make God's Law obsolete & irrelevant; rather, the Law that once revealed to man his sin & condemned him without giving him a plan of escape, was finally nailed to the Cross where Jesus' Sacrifice now brought Mercy & Salvation. Since the Cross, we are to obey every commandment (& many more by the ministry & help of the Holy Spirit) - but those commands that are relevant for those found in Christ.
  • Prosperity - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Questions to Sincere Bible Believers (2)

    1) If Paul is speaking to The actual Gentiles(non Israelites), why does he state this;

    - Romans 9:3-4

    - Romans 11:1

    - Romans 11:25-27
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    It is true that the Roman Epistle was directed primarily to believing Gentiles, but when we read the whole letter, we see that Paul wanted to bring out the doctrine of Justification by Faith and its ramifications - and this he did in a systematic manner unlike his other epistles. And if one is to properly handle such an important doctrine, then one would have to appeal to where it all began: with God's chosen people, Israel.

    The Law was given to them ("the law of righteousness", as Paul calls it in Romans 9:31), but they failed to apprehend it "because they sought it not by faith" (v32). But the Gentiles on the other hand, "attained to righteousness" (v30), not having been given the Law, because they attained it by faith.

    Had Israel found righteousness by faith (i.e. through Christ, Who ultimately was their "stumbling stone" (v33)), maybe much of what Paul wrote in Romans chapters 9 to 11, would need not be shared with the Roman believers. But what Paul did share, serves to show how Israel, who was in such a privileged blessed position, lost it; and their loss was the gain of the Gentiles. The Roman believers can now better appreciate the Gospel brought to them & the salvation received through Christ, when they know that "through their (the Jews) fall, salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" ( Romans 11:11). To a Church that neither Paul nor Peter founded, this was an important history & spiritual lesson to the believers: why the Gospel had to be brought 'first to the Jew & then to the Greek' ( Romans 1:16), and that it is by faith alone we all stand (Jew & Gentile) & not by the "works of the law" ( Romans 9:32). From this brief explanation, I hope you can appreciate Paul's need to share this part of Jewish spiritual history in his discourse with the gentiles.
  • Prosperity - In Reply - 2 years ago
    @Chris

    Romans is written to The Romans. Why does Paul say that his brethren according to the flesh are Israelites, if The Gentiles that he is writing to are also not Israelites ?

    Furthermore, all of The Epistles that Paul wrote were written to strangers that were scattered in those particular areas. For example, Rome, Ephesus, Thessalonicca, Corinth. Those were the same areas where The Israelites were scattered.

    Acts 2:5 states that there were Jews out of every nation under heaven. Once again, why would Paul write to non Israelites and then say that all Israel shall be saved if The Epistle is directed towards the actual Gentiles (non Israelites) ?
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thanks 'Prosperity'. To answer your three questions:

    a. Romans 9:3-5. Paul says what he did in this portion because he was speaking about his brethren by blood, i.e. Israel - not brethren by faith in Christ. Here in these chapters, Paul is relating what the Jews should have gained, if they had accepted Christ, but had lost their position because they wanted to hold to the Law & not come to Christ (which can only be by faith). So the Roman believers, & there could have been believing Jews amongst them as well, needed to hear this message that salvation has come to them because of the "fall" of the Jews & acceptance by God of Jew & Gentile through His Son.

    b. Romans was written to believers in Rome ( Romans 1:6-8); the Corinthian Epistles to the Church/saints at Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 1:2); Ephesians to the saints in Ephesus ( Ephesians 1:1); and the Thessalonian Epistles to the Church in Thessalonica ( 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4). So, in the Churches there would have been the Jewish diaspora as well as Gentiles, and together Paul considered them as the Church, the beloved of God.

    c. I see no problem with the content of Paul's letters to the largely Gentile Churches there. It's as if I preached in a Pakistani Church of what God was doing in Pakistan among Muslims, also about believers living the Spirit-filled life, & the need to share their faith, & also that my heart continued to be for the salvation of Muslims. Would I be wrong to share that so that the Church might be informed & encouraged to pray? So Paul was sharing with the Roman Church that one day all Israel will bend their knee to Jesus & be saved. Shouldn't the Gentiles rejoice in this wonderful time of salvation of the Jews, through whom the Lord Jesus came & ministered to? But if any today in the Church despise Israel, then maybe, yes, they could take umbrage to such news.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Amen Gigi.

    Well spoken, Jesus came to redeem all of creation from the curse pronounced on the world in Genesis. The work of the cross didn't just redeem us, Christ came to redeem all that was created. Romans 8:21-23. The commandments weren't set forth to do that. The commandments were to show the need for redemption.

    The commandments given didn't say keep the commandments the best you can.

    The second you broke any one of them you were forever lost if there was no sacrifice that could take away sin. Hebrews 10:1-5.

    It was the sacrifices that pointed to Christ that made atonement for those sins.

    Israel having God in their midst with all the providence showed the world that the heart of man is incurably wicked.

    The law showed that there was a need of a savior that could regenerate the believer and give a new heart and life.

    The commandments are Holy and was given to a nation that was set apart to show man with God in their midst was nothing like God being "IN" them.

    That's what's available today.

    God bless.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    S. Spencer,

    What you are saying about Israel is so telling. They had the Law and the words of the prophets, They had the status as God's favored nation. They had the history of God doing nighty miracles that none of the idols ever could do.

    But they failed miserably to live up to God's will in what He commanded of them. But along with the civil and moral laws, God had instituted sacrifices for the people to offer to God to take care of their sin. This was to show them that they NEED a sacrifice for their sins because it was clear that they could not keep their end of the covenant, that is perfectly obeying the law. Yet, they came to depend on the sacrifices of sheep and bulls to take care of their sins instead of depending on God to provide the forgiveness in the Messiah. They opted for religious observances and could not look past them to see that they pointed to Jesus.

    But, in Jesus, we have the ultimate best for us. In Him is created a new humanity that is changed from what they were before they believed. Redemption includes this, not just to restore us to pre-fall holiness, but to advance us into a life of victory over sin and death through Jesus' death and resurrection. We are a new creation, not like Adam, who turned away from God. We have turned to God in Christ and in doing so we are kept in fellowship with God by the righteousness of Jesus imputed upon us.

    Hallelujah! for that. And on top of that, our Paradise will be with Jesus in heaven where no corruption will ever enter again. So much better that Adam's paradise!
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Prosperity, as to your question about the disciples celebrating Pentecost. I think that they did this because when they were with Jesus He celebrated all of the Jewish feasts. They were following His example, since they were Jews, too. There was nothing wrong with Jesus' disciples celebrating these feasts, but also nothing meritorious either. Years later, Paul meets with the church in Jerusalem to counsel together about what Gentiles are to do concerning Jewish Law. The determination was that Gentiles did not have to keep Jewish Law with a few exceptions.

    As the church grew throughout that first century it became more and more compiled of converted Gentiles rather than Jews. So, in his epistle letters Paul says to not let anyone judge you as to whether or not one celebrates the traditional Jewish feasts, Sabbaths, and holy days. So, all Christians are to decide for themselves if they will celebrate any, all, or none of these observances of days and seasons. Whatever one chooses is acceptable, being part of the liberty we have in Christ. What matters is a clear conscience before God.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Prosperity,

    My understanding is that Jesus fulfilled all of the Law perfectly and fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning the first coming of the Messiah. Also, he abolished the curse of the Law for those who believe in Him. So, we are freed from having to fulfill the law perfectly and from receiving the curse of the Law for not obeying God perfectly.

    Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. ( Matthew 5:17)

    Colossians 2:14 says that "..you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has me made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that were against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." is speaking of the debt of our sin (the handwritten note that keeps an account of all of the ways we have disobeyed the Law of God) being removed from us and no longer applies to us. We are forgiven completely and the sins we the debt against us that the law requires for disobedience, which is death, has been wiped out and nailed to the cross in the body of Jesus, our perfect sacrifice, who alone can remove this debt that deserves the wrath of God upon us.

    Elsewhere, Paul says that the law is holy, righteous and good, but our sinful nature is against obeying the law and so we cannot ever be justified by the law. The law will always condemn us. But to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh, we will be given the power to live godly lives.

    Paul was not saying that we are no longer responsible to live morally godly lives, rather, we are, by being dead in Christ and then risen in Him, we have resurrection power to live by faith, believing that anything we do that is morally right is done by the Spirit within us and not by our carnal fleshly nature. God is working in and through us by grace to live according to the Spirit who will always want us to do what is morally right and to obey God
  • Prosperity - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Okay. I understand what you mean but why did Christ Himself say this;

    Matthew 5:19

    In Revelation 12:17, we see that the dragon went to make war with the woman's seed (metaphorically Israel) and they keep The Commandments.

    Furthermore, in 1 John 2:3-4, John states that only those who keep God's Commandments actually know Him. The Law is still in effect. If not, how do people differentiate between right and wrong ?
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hello again, Prosperity,

    I am in harmony with these verses. I do think we are to keep the commandments Jesus has given us. We are not to lead anyone into disobeying His commands. And that His commandments are to be kept by those who love Him.

    What I was speaking to was that no one can every earn any merit towards salvation or right standing before God from obeying Him because, even when we wish to do so and fight against sin, we will still sin, which disqualifies us from being righteous on our own.

    Thankfully, Jesus is our righteousness. He has imputed to us His perfect life and had all of our sin imputed upon Him on the cross. What a scandalous exchange this is! But it wins for us a victory that is priceless and sure.

    I do think that believers should make every effort to live a life of obedience in all respects. The commandments of God tell us what God knows is truly good and right. We should want to live the way the commandments instruct us to because they are all wise and good for us to obey. We should also want to obey from the heart, not just outwardly, as the commandments speak about actions. We should want to have right motives and intentions, but above all we should do everything out of love, which Jesus said was how we fulfill His commandments. Paul instructs us to do this, too. ( Ephesians 5:2; Romans 13:8-10). Every command of God that we obey is following this way of life Jesus and Paul is telling us about.

    So, let love be our aim in all things, in thought, words, deeds; in motivations, desires, affections; and in what we choose not to do. Love is the answer to all of our obedience. And this love comes to us from God first which then we love Hi:16m and one another. 1John 4 is such a wonderful chapter to read concerning this.

    I hope you have a good evening. And feel free to respond back to me.
  • Prosperity - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Yes. The Commandments must be kept. The love of God is keeping The Commandments. 1 John 3:23-24
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Prosperity.

    The law was given to Israel but let's set that aside.

    You are right in that you say, "The Commandments must be kept" Israel couldn't obtain salvation thru the keeping of the law and neither can we.

    Christ came to free us from the curse of the law, that doesn't mean he did away with The Law.

    In the old covenant "under the law" there was sacrifices made for sin. Those sacrifices pointed ahead to the only sacrifice that could take away sin AND regenerate the believer by the Spirit. Hebrews 10:3-10.

    The old covenant had no power over the incurable heart. The new covenant humbled the sinner and pointed him in the right direction. "CHRIST" Ezekiel 36:26-27. Jeremiah 31:31-33.

    The old covenant slew us and is called the ministration of death. Romans 7:5-11. 2 Corinthians 3:6-14.

    The new covenant gave mercy. Why mercy? Because no one could keep the law, and no one is able to do so today. Putting ourselves in chains and grinding our teeth while restraining from sin isn't keeping the law. Galatians 2:21.

    The commandments given didn't say keep the commandments as best you can.

    You're breaking the law in your heart You're still a sinner. There's no sanctification. Christ came to give new birth and a new heart accompanied with mercy and grace.

    The second you broke any one of them you were forever lost if there was no sacrifice that could take away sin. Hebrews 10:1-5.

    It was the sacrifices that pointed to Christ that made atonement for those sins.

    Israel having God in their midst with all the providence showed the world that the heart of man is incurably wicked.

    The law showed that there was a need of a savior that could regenerate the believer and give a new heart and life.

    The commandments are Holy and was given to a nation that was set apart to show man with God in their midst was nothing like God being "IN" them.

    That's what's available today.

    Read Galatians 3:10-26.

    Perhaps more on this later this weekend God bless."



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