Bible Discussion Thread

Hello everyone, Today I am meditating on what faith means from Scripture. It seems that there are several aspects that are involved in the faith we have as a Christian. I think that first of all, we believe the knowledge of salvation in the Gospel. Second, we believe in Jesus as the object of our faith. Thirdly, we trust that God's revealed way to save us is the only way of salvation. And fourthly, we rely on God to save us by his grace on the merits of Christ and His work, not by any merit of our own.

I would like to know what others think about this topic of the faith we must have to be "in Christ".

Hello GiGi

About faith again. An experience of mine.

A few years ago I had a problem and I was desperate to get an answer from God and get what I was asking for. So I was trying to find out how to move God's Hand for me. I thought that God may have a "button" in His Heart like people. In my country we say that all people have a button in their heart that if you find it and press it then they give you everything they have, even themselves. It is a metaphor. So I was thinking what that button may be in God's heart. Is it that that I become completely devoted like Paul and the apostles, is it that I become always thankgiving to God no matter what, is it that I suffer persecutions for God, is it that I go out and preach the Gospel to people in cities squares, is it that I write hymns and songs for God like David did? What should I do to impress God, to make Him like me a little bit more and give me what I wanted from Him? Anyway I was thinking this sort of things.

The next day in the evening we had a congregation in my church. A preacher from another city from another church passed by and he started preaching. It was about faith. And among the others he said "Do you want to know what is God's button? That button is called faith. Have faith in your heart that you will be given your need and do not hesitate at all and God will definetely do that...". An immediate response to my thoughts from God.

GBU

Giannis

Such a wonderful account of how the Holy Spirit works in our hearts and then brings answers and/or confirmations from outside ourselves. This happens to me often, and I am so thankful that God stoops to bring me such occurrences. It touches my heart and also builds my faith.

Pt 3

Also there is the spiritual gift of faith described in 1 Cor 12:8. But this kind of faith is for the benefit of all the congregation, like all the gifts. I believe we have all seen people in our congregations that they have such a strong faith and they communicate it to others when talking to them. Their faith is like a flame that propagates from man to man. You hear them talking and your faith goes up, you hear a specific preacher preaching and immediately you feel a fire(faith) burning inside you. It is a gift that God gives to some specific believers to increase the faith of the whole congregation. So there are many ways that God uses to increase our faith. So in general a proper christian life produces faith in believers. Like Ronald said we have to feed it, and a decent christian life feeds it. Then our light will shine to people, like the light of the 5 wise virgins. If we don't feed our faith/flame then it will go off and the darkness of sin will come in. So Faith is the basis where we built our christian lives. It is the foundation of our spiritual house. Believing in God's Words is the way God's Wisdom chose to save and make mankind rightous.

Now about Demons believing in God as written in James 2:19, my thoughts are. An "active" faith produces works. Faith is something inside us. How does that show to other people? By works. If good works do not exist in ones life then their faith is considered dead. It still exists but it is stationary, dead. It is like it doesn't exist. In demons faith is simply a knowledge. There is no willing for salvation, for changing(assuming they were permitted to do so). But Jesus took human nature so His sacrifice is for humans, He didn't take angelic nature to sacrifice Himself for devils. Why not? Who knows, maybe God knows that devils will never repend, maybe they have blasphemied the Holly Spirit and they can not be forgiven. But all that is assumptions, God doesn't give us any information in His Word for that."

Sorry, I sent this post twice.

Pt 1

Hi GiGi

My views on faith.

Firstly "faith" and "belief" is the same word in greek (Pistis). So generally speaking faith is to believe in somebody/something. The definition of faith, as said by Chris, is given by Paul in Heb 11:1 ""Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". But I will disagree with what J Vernon Mcgee says. The greek for what is transalated as "substance " in this case is more properly translated as the "nature". the "being" and further the "existence" of something. So what Paul says is that faith is the existence/shows the existence/brings into existence what we don't see with our biological sences but we believe in it and hope for it. Also a more accurate translation of the word "evidence" (grk "elegchos" is to "control/check/observe...). So with faith we observe and check things we do not see.

So the question is, whom and what is it that we must believe. The answer is we believe in God's words. Have we seen God(The Father)? No,but we have seen and heard Jesus Christ who brought the Word of God to mankind ( John 7:16-18). And what is it that Jesus said? He said that He was sent by Father to sacrifice Himself for the salvation of people. And here is where Faith comes in. The one that believes this word of His and accept it in their heart, they are given eternal life. Salvation is granted to people not because we they are good people but it is a free gift from God. Free, but still man has to do a work to get it. What is this work? In John 6:28-29 says "Then said they(the Jews) unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." That work is called faith, believing Jesus' words.

Hi Giannis.

If one wanted to look up or do a word study in Greek, would you recommend King James study bible/strongs translation?

My reason for asking is you said J Vernon Mcgee translation of the word substance you didn't agree with but it's what I find when I look the verse up and the translation of what is being used. However, the conclusion and understanding parallel.

I know there is different forms of Greek but what form of Greek is the King James drawn from?

Greek:

Transliteration: hupostasis

Pronunciation: hoop-os'-tas-is

Definition: From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support) that is (figuratively) concretely essence or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence confident person substance.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

Hi Spencer.

The grk word "hupostasis" or as it is in modern grk "hypostasis" (similarly to "hypothesis" instead of "hupothesis") means nature, existence and similar things. Now if with the word "substance" (grk "ousia") is meant what that nature consists of, the matter, well one could probably consider it like this. But the most common meaning is nature or existence.

I have looked it up in numerous grk Bibles, none of them interpretes it like that, most of them say existence, reality or something similar. I have looked it up in many Eng. versions and the interpretations I found out are substance, confidence, assurance, reality,...and for "evidence" assurance, conviction, sign, proof, evidence...so it seems there are various interpretations that actually lead to the same conclusion although different between them.

Pron. in mod. grk. Hee-poh-stah-sees, and in anc. grk Hoo-poh-sta-seh(long)s.

I do not want to make any comment about Strong's dictionary or any work from people who have studied those things extensively. I am not a scholar and my job is not to check other people's works especially those of scientists, I am not the proper person for that. What I say is what I know and what I have read.

KJB is a very good translation. It is written in Old English so sometimes English readers need clarifications, as I read in posts. Even in cases that the actual translation is not that accurate, the actual meaning is not altered. Sometimes it is very difficult to find respective words in Eng. There are grk words that have not got a completely respective in Eng. I don't think it is possible to translate from any language to any other other language perfectly, there will be always mismatches but the most important thing is not to alter the initial meaning, and I think KJB has done well in that. Besides it is considered one of the best Engl. translations wordwide, so who am I to speak about it.

Also nowadays one can look words up on the net, a lot of information there.

GBU

Hi Giannis.

Thanks so much for your time

explaining the differences.

God bless you.

S Spencer. by the way I'm out of town on my cellphone and it is improperly set up.

Pt 2

Now often the question is, is faith from God or man? The answer is both. God raises His hand and gives to man and man has to raise his hand and take what is given to him by God, it takes two for this. God somehow reveals Himself to people and people must accept Him. God does the first step and then man does (or does not) his own step. How does God reveal Himself to people? It depends on the individual, it is not the same for everybody., God suits His actions to the character of any individual so to get the best result, in other words He knows our character and acts accordingly. Some people believe because the heard somebody preaching, like Lydia in Philippi, some must see something, like Paul on his way to Damascus.. There are many that hear God's Word or see a miracle and believe and many that hear God's Word or see a miracle and don't believe. It is the responsibility of man to believe or not. God does His Own part, and man has to do his own part. And there are also many that believe in Jesus and later on they leave God and follow something they love more than God. Balaam, Judas loved riches, Saul loved glory, Demas loved the world and so on

This is in the beginning. But as we walk our christian path, faith (that is believing in God's words) is still essential to us. If we don't believe the written word that God is our Father who supplies our needs, who protects us, who forgives us no matter what, who is going to get us to the end, then we can not go on, we can not withstand the difficulties of life, we will stop and go back to our old lives. So now faith has the meaning of trusting in God

How is faith increased? In many ways. Firstly Faith is a fruit of the Holly Spirit. When we are filled with Him our faith is raised. Secondly faith comes from hearing/reading the Word of God. Faith grows when we are in companionship with other christians and hear from them God's actions in their lives. And very important, faith increases when we see God's Hand in our lives.

Pt 3

Also there is the spiritual gift of faith described in 1 Cor 12:8. But this kind of faith is for the benefit of all the congregation, like all the gifts. I believe we have all seen people in our congregations that they have such a strong faith and they communicate it to others when talking to them. Their faith is like a flame that propagates from man to man. You hear them talking and your faith goes up, you hear a specific preacher preaching and immediately you feel a fire(faith) burning inside you. It is a gift that God gives to some specific believers to increase the faith of the whole congregation. So there are many ways that God uses to increase our faith. So in general a proper christian life produces faith in believers. Like Ronald said we have to feed it, and a decent christian life feeds it. Then our light will shine to people, like the light of the 5 wise virgins. If we don't feed our faith/flame then it will go off and the darkness of sin will come in. So Faith is the basis where we built our christian lives. It is the foundation of our spiritual house. Believing in God's Words is the way God's Wisdom chose to save and make mankind rightous.

Now about Demons believing in God as written in James 2:19, my thought are. An "active" faith produces works. Faith is something inside us. How does it shows to other people? By works. If good works do not exist in a ones life then their faith is considered dead. It still exists but it is stationary, dead. It is like it doesn't exist. In demons faith is simply a knowledge. Their is no willing for salvation, for changing(assuming they were permitted to do so). But Jesus took human nature so His sacrifice is for humans, He didn't take angelic nature to sacrifice Himself for devils. Why not? Who knows, maybe God knows that devils will never repend, maybe they have blasphemied the Holly Spirit and they can not be forgiven. But all that is assumptions, God doesn't give us any information in His Word for that.

Pt 4

Now lets go back to faith and works. As I said an active faith must produce a fruit, good works. Otherwise our faith is considered dead and so we are in a risk of loosing our salvation. This is what James says in his gospel. So one may ask. Is it finally faith or works that save? Is it a gift from God or is it a result of our behavior? The answer is faith. But when our faith shows no works, then that means that we are in disobedience, we don't follow God's commandements. The lack of works is due to not following God's path for us. So it is Jesus' Blood and sacrifice that makes us rightous, but Jesus' Blood has no effect on us when are in disobedience, sin and do not repent. And how is it shown that we repent? It is shown by our works. So the existence or not of good works show an active or an inactive faith. It is not works that save, but works are the evidence of the kind of faith that exists inside each one of us. Like the case of a murder. If there is a dead body then a murder was proved to have been commited, if not then how do we know that a murder was commited? Not a good example, but at least it it a simple one.

In Rev in Jesus' message to the church of Ephessus, the pastor there is warned that he has fallen from his first love. How is that shown. By the lack of works(which he had before falling from his first love). That is why Jesus asks him to repent and do the first works. His repentance will be shown by the works that he will do. All people will be judged according to their works. This is what Matthew's gospel says in Matthew 25:31-46. People are not judged for their faith but for their works, for the works are the evidence of a live or dead faith, for salvation or distruction.

GBU

Amen Giannis!

Very good reply.

GBU.

Thanks Giannis, A very good reply.

Gigi.

Part 3. J Vernon Mcgee.

Therefore, faith rests upon the Word of God. Our dogmatism comes from the Book. That is the reason the writer to the Hebrews said in Hebrews 10:39, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." There are only two ways to go. Either you are going backwards, or you are going to go forwards. Anything that is alive cannot stand still. Out yonder in the forest there is regression and deterioration taking place, but there is also growth and development. Nothing alive out there is standing still - it cannot.

"The evidence of things not seen." In the Greek the word is elegchos. It is a legal term meaning "evidence that is accepted for conviction." When I was studying classical Greek in college, I observed that this word is used about twenty-three times in Plato's account of the trial of Socrates. Evidence is something you take into court to prove your case.

Faith is not a leap in the dark. Faith is not a "hope so." Faith is substance and evidence - substance for a scientific mind, and evidence for a legal mind. If you really want to believe, you can believe. You can believe a whole lot of foolish things, but God doesn't want you to do that. He wants your faith to rest upon the Word of God.

-From Edited Messages on Hebrews by Dr. J. Vernon McGee.

God bless.

Thank You S. spencer, This was helpful.

Gigi.

part 2. J Vernon mcgee

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ( Hebrews 11:1)

The Greek word for "substance" is hupostasis. It is a scientific term, the opposite of hypothesis or theory. It is that which rests upon facts. In chemistry it would be the chemical which settles at the bottom of the test tube after you have made an experiment. Dr. A. T. Robertson translates substance as "title deed." What is the title deed? What is the substance? It is the Word of God, my friend. If your faith does not rest upon the Word of God, it is not biblical faith at all. It has to rest upon what God says. Actually, it means to believe God.

The question is whether you believe God or not. Don't come up with the "I've got intellectual problems" excuse, because that won't work. The thing that keeps men from the Word of God is sin. It is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. It is the heart that needs to believe - it is "the heart that believeth unto righteousness." When you are ready to give up your sin, the Holy Spirit will make real to you the Word of God.

Paul wrote to the Colossian believers, "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" ( Colossians 1:9). To know the will of God is to know the Word of God. He prayed that they might know the Word of God. The Greek word for "knowledge" which Paul used is epignosis. There were Gnostics in that day who professed to have super knowledge. Paul told the Colossians that he wanted them to have super knowledge which was genuine by knowing that the Bible is the Word of God, and he believed that the Holy Spirit would make it real to them.

see part 3.

Hello Spencer

The greek for "knowledge" is "gnosis". When the prefix "epi" is placed in front of it then it becomes "epignosis" "Epi" in greek means to add something on top of the following word (or just something on top), so to add something to gnosis/knowledge. So in simple words the word "epignosis" that Paul uses here means a better understanding, a deeper knowledge. How is that deeper understanding aquired? I have heard many theories but my experience showed me that that deeper knowledge/better understanding is aquired when a simple knowledge becomes a living experience. Example. We all know that when we are filled with the Spirit then joy, love and peace come inside us. This is s knowledge we aquire when we read the Word of God. But it becomes a deeper knowledge and a better understanding when we experience it and feel actually what we know how it feels as a simple knowledge. So it has to do with experiencing the Word of God, with living in it.

GBU

Thank you, Giannis.

its virtue. "This is to know him" the spirit causes this knowledge to become experience.

God bless you.

Hi GIgi.

Part 1.

Great and important question Gigi!

At the same time can get really confusing!

There's what we call saving faith. We're saved by grace " Through faith". Ephesians 2:8. Here's an element of election with the faith being performed is actually supplied by the Spirit. It is obvious everyone is not supplied with it; however, the invite goes out to everyone. God knew who would believe.

Is believing what it takes to initiate God's faith to the believer? Are they separate? Are they the same?

Here's a few verses where believing is used in the Bible. It's obvious when it comes to salvation It's "what" you believe not just believing in God as seen here in James 2:19.

And then we have John 6:28-28 and Romans 10:9-10 Where belief is directed towards something specific.

God given faith is a fruit and is accompanied with other fruit.

There are results in God given faith as seen here in James 2:14-18.

Faith is not trusting in something! It's trusting in someone and that's the Lord.

Believing is not believing in something It's believing on someone and that's the Lord. We are to believe on the promise given to Abraham as mentioned here in Galatians 3:16-22. We are heirs of the promise by faith as Isaac as mentioned in Galatians 4:28.

We are given a promise by God and given faith to believe in that promise.

The invitation goes out to all as mentioned in 1 John 2:2.

Everyone is given the ability to comprehend that light as mentioned in John 1:4-8. "But all will not"

A person has to fall upon that rock and know he needs a savior.

This is where the 10 commandments come into play. The commandments were meant to drive one to Christ. Some from out of darkness and some from dead works.

Part 2 an article from J Vernon Mcgee.

Hey GiGi,

As a simple man, my understanding of faith is based on belief, trust, obedience, and thanksgiving, from our mind to our heart, a relationship offered by God through the sacrifice and resurrection of His Son Jesus, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Faith is a responsibility likened to marriage referred to many times in the bible. Our commitment and love are shown by our actions, which come from our hearts to our hands as in James 2:14-17 which is sometimes misunderstood as works for salvation.

This faith is a gift we have been given, its growth is dependent on how it is fed. Jesus said faith as small as a mustard seed can move a mountain, that shows how large it can grow in the word of God and prayer. We can sometimes hinder its growth as said in Col. 2:8 following the majority down the wide road when the truth is down the path that has grown up from the lack of traffic.

It will be tried, we have been told we will be tempted and will have tribulation in this world that many say we will be spared, John 16:33 Acts 14:22, but that builds patience, James 1:3. We see we will need if we are here, we will need in the great tribulation Rev. 13:10.

The growth of our faith is to add "virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity' 2 Peter 1:4-8.

This may not be what you are looking for but just my thoughts.

God bless,

RLW

I would agree; but it would seem something is short there. First off; the concept that even the demons believe and shudder (somewhere in James). Clearly; they were unable to have the access to something such as redemption; His atonement would only be sufficient for man. We also have the case of the woman who was possessed with a demon that said to Paul that He was preaching the way to salvation in which we must be saved. This takes a little more analysis to bring out the meaning. It seems like this is correct theology even demon inspired. The need to properly discern the situation as to the source may have been what initially delayed Paul's response to this woman. Eventually he told the demon to be quiet. The question would be what the reason for this was that the demon wanted to declare this openly. One thought is that there was a desire to "coexist" as it were. The demonstration which went on for hours about Diana (if I have the name right) didn't stop the Apostles. Satan either uses persecution or assimilation as his greatest weapons. If people could continue in their spiritism and worship Christ they could remain blinded. Still; the demon mentions it being the way not just a way. It wasn't like the verses stating that no one can say Jesus came in the flesh except by the Spirit of God. That statement may indicate; however that indeed some sort of mystical Christ; or gnostic practices that correlated with whatever spirit was using the woman to make money for merchants was the direction it was trying to turn the listeners to.

The last thought I have is that faith is also a spiritual gift. As all good gifts come from above; God initiates repentance as scripture makes clear (granting repentance that RESULTS in a person turning from sins.) Or; ANY faith that is NOT coming from the "Father of lights" is either our own imaginations; self effort or from the "father of lies." True faith is TRUST; and holding Christ as Lord; savior AND Master.

Yes Sir , "True faith is Trust" , establishing trust in the LORD , makes us trustworthy to Him .

Thanks again, Richard. I have lots of things to think about with these responses.

GiGi,

My understanding of faith comes from taking the literal definition of the word faith from the original language. The word faith in the Bible means persuasion. Every time I see the word faith, the word persuasion comes to mind.

I also have to understand that there are two types of faith, human faith that everyone has, both believer and non-believer, and then there's the faith the Bible speaks of which is spiritual faith.

With that in mind, I ask myself, do I have spiritual faith? Is spiritual faith something that I in my own human effort can produce?

Again, everyone has human faith. But is it human faith that persuades me to believe, or is it God's Spirit in me that persuades me to believe?

From a scriptural standpoint, when I read that faith is a fruit of God's Spirit, that tells me that the faith the Bible speaks of (Spiritual faith) is not something I have the ability or capacity to produce, but rather, the faith I have is from Christ's Spirit that lives in me. He is the one who persuades me to believe. That is the true definition of faith.

I believe and am fully persuaded (faith) because I have God's Spirit. Without His Spirit, how can any of us be fully persuaded in our minds that God exists, or that His word is true.

Do we trust in human logic, human reasoning, human faith, or do we trust in the faith that the Bible speaks of, the faith we can only have if it is given to us by receiving Christ and being born of His Spirit, the only true source of faith, Spiritual faith?

Am I to persuade myself to believe, or am I to submit to the persuasion of God's Spirit in me? Again, am I to trust in my human faith (which has failed me in the past), or submit myself to His persuasion which has never failed me, nor will it ever fail anyone who remains under His persuasion?

Than you so much for sending this out.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Jesse

Thank you for this informative answer. I agree that we cannot believe without the work of the Holy Spirit. it is He who enlightens our minds to apprehend the truth of the Gospel, to desire salvation from our sins in Jesus, to know that God indeed exists, and to mature in our knowledge of Him.

When we are born again by the Holy Spirit, our intellect is redeemed along with the rest of who we are. He guides our minds, guards our reasoning and logic, and gives us understanding of spiritual truths found in the Bible concerning God, Jesus' Person and work on our behalf, and the who we have become in Christ. The Holy Spirit does the persuading, enables us to trust in God for salvation and life, and trains us up in spiritual faith.

Page 2.

c. Not Works. In relation to Salvation's matter, Works opposes Faith. It can be seen as not only self-effort & self-determination, but of Faithlessness & opposition to God. If any attempt is made to supplement our efforts to gain or assist in our salvation by faith, our faith is nullified & we are still in our sins. Any act of works declares that God's Work to save us was insufficient or not wholly believable - salvation must be all of God or not at all.

In summary, in Ephesians 2:8,9 Paul tells us that the Gift of God towards us unworthy sinners, was His Grace & His Faith to believe & accept His Salvation. It could never be His Grace & our Faith, for we could never generate such a faith towards salvation - it had to be both from God, which ensures its reality in our hearts & confidence towards God.

So, if God has done all this for us, making the preciousness of our Savior's death & resurrection vital in our hearts, what can ever "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?" This is the Faith God requires. And He gives it to those earnestly seeking Him cowering under the weight of their sin.

Thank you Chris.

I agree that when we come to salvation, it is all of God. I guess my question was more of how we grow in our faith once regenerated. For as new believers, we know but a little, but as we grow in faith we come to know more fully and deeply our Lord and what it means to be a new creation in Christ. Without a growing faith, we would not mature. But I believe that God does want us to use what He has given us to become the person He has made us to be. And this cannot happen without being reborn by the Holy Spirit and indwelt by Him and indued by Him to apprehend spiritual truths by faith.

Page 1.

Hi GiGi. Another great & important question from you & btw, thank you, my wife & I had a very enjoyable vacation visiting some of the S. Pacific islands.

My attempt to answer your question, takes me first to its root. And the one Scripture that I believe identifies this is Ephesians 2:8,9.

"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast."

I see three things at work here:

a. God's Grace. If it wasn't for the Grace of God afforded us, nothing in relation to salvation could ever occur, indeed, could we even continue to exist on Earth without that Grace? As was previously discussed in your other thread (on Mercy & Grace), that only out of God's Holy Character of Love & Mercy for all, can such Love ever be experienced by sinful man. So, first we see that we need a Gracious God ever ready to pour out His Love & ever ready to Forgive (but on His Terms).

b. Of Faith. God knew that man could never generate such faith as to apprehend the glories of God, of Heaven, & of Eternity. Man can, & always had hope of something better than this life, but never knew of it with any certainty. Our fickle faith is limited to what we see & know in our worldview, but to ask us to believe in & apprehend something that is 'impossible to fathom', requires an extra Grace. God has to give us Faith as well as Grace, or else all talk of His Love & Salvation would circumvent our minds. And so Hebrews 11:1 gives us the meaning: this Faith from God to us must be of substance & evident in our hearts & not a wishful hope. If it weren't, then it isn't Faith - Faith brings into reality that which appears unreal.

James 2, James 1:26,27, Matthew 25:31-46, Philippians 2:1-16,

Thank you T. Levis.

Yes, our faith is to be shown forth in works that are done for the glory of God and the good of our neighbors.

My query was more of a focus on what is involved in saving faith without referring to the fruit-bearing works that flow from faith. Perhaps it would be better to speak of what is the "substance" of biblically acceptable faith.

We can speak more tomorrow on this. I am off to bed for the night.

God bless you T. Levis. Always love to hear from you.