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BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 207242

Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Gerald - 2 years ago
    The repentant thief continued :

    But in spite of all that The Lord inspired him to see something else .

    " Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom"

    He saw a King! Who even now inspired confidence and submission ,"Lord".

    He not only saw a king but one who would conquer death and inherit that kingdom .

    The Lord also inspired faith in him for he also saw that he could save him also .

    " Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom "

    God always responds to real faith and in turning his head the Lord said " this day shalt thou be with me in paradise "

    That thief went into eternity with a promise .

    In turning his head to the repentant thief ,the Lord turned his head away from the unrepentant thief who entered eternity with nothing .

    Don't leave it to your death bed to repent you just may not have the time ,chance or indeed the attitude to do so.

    The time to consider your ways and repent is now and turn to the Lord now.

    For today is the day of salvation ,boast not yourselves of tomorrow for you no not what to,or row will bring forth ".
  • Alex1939 - In Reply - 2 years ago
    alex1939...Gerald GBU but let me remind you its what Jesus did at Calvary that saved all of us...His blood that New Covenant in his blood... Romans 5:8...While we were yet sinners Christ died for us,all of us...If i be lifted up i will draw ALL MEN unto me...The 2 theives were made Clean by his blood and the words he spoke to them...That New Covenant in his blood You are made Clean by the Words i have spoken unto you...Abide in me and i in you ...They didn't need to be water baptised the old covenant Johns water baptism...This was a new COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD...Remember what Peter said to whom shall we go lord thou has the Words of Eternal life...Jesus had a conversation with these 2 theives and it was his words that made them Clean... Hebrews 10:20 I was found of them that sought me not and i was made manifest unto them that asked not after me...This New Covenant is a different covenant then the 1 st covenant...God Almighty says i will know them ALL from the least to the greatest... Jeremiah 31:34...And this knowledge is an intimacy that is gonna form Christ in everybody...Thus the babes and sucklings he mentions...And Isaiah says that this Knowledge is gonna cover the earth as the waters cover the seas...Thats everybody...As Bro Paul mentions the whole creation groans for the manifestation of the Son of God (birth pains) ...The Children of Promise the H.G.... Romans 8:22...Real Faith is a spirtual pregnancy...They don't call him the bridegroom for nothin his words are his seeds that are gona fulfill that great Promise of Multiplication and regeneration...But these things are hid from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes...Spirits the H.G. a living being our new heart and new spirit...An Israel of God...That New heaven and new earth...His seed and his name sake the H.G...27 times in the O.T. the Prophets saw the world in travail and birth pains...And thats y Elijah has to come and turn the fathers hearts to the Children...The Children of Promise...gbu Gerald
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Great word & Gospel presentation Gerald. Just to add a thought to the thieves' perception of the One hanging betwixt them: it seems that in spite of their sinful life, or occupation, at least one of them appeared to have knowledge of Jesus' Life & Ministry. Maybe, news was carried around then just as fast as it's today on the internet, or maybe he observed first-hand the quality of this Man & His Works that no man could justifiably withstand.

    Then after finding that this Man was in the same boat as he, presumably unable to save Himself or the others, his anger & reviling Jesus was his first painful utterance. But as you said, it was then that faith took hold: from what he knew of Jesus, what he saw of himself, turning his reviling into repentance. Death was certain for each of them; the thief's only life-line rested completely in the One Who was called Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.

    Hebrews 11:1 might be evident here also: the little faith that arose in the thief gave him the 'substance' (assurance) of what he hoped would be for him at the end of the line; and became 'evidence' (the proof that fully persuades the heart) of what could not be seen with the human eye or conceivable in the mind. Jesus saw both the man & his heart & gave him the double assurance with the promise that he would be with Him in paradise. This thief made it in just as salvation's doors were shutting on him - the other & so many others then & today, remain resistant to the Love of God in Jesus, will never make it and never get another chance to re-consider their error.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Pt 2

    Jairus' faith is not something really big, he has just heard of Jesus' miracles but has never met or talked to Him personally. He doesn't know Jesus' personality, character, hardly anything about Him.

    We know that Jesus accepted to go with him to his house. But on the way there that woman with the problem in her blood appears. Jesus miracusely heals her, everybody sees that. But that seems to cause a delay and before starting walking again towards the house the little girl dies. If I was Jairus I would definately doubt about Jesus' intentions to me. "Why did you allow God this to happen? Oh, not now, you could have arranged to heal her sometime later on, not now, time was spent here, my girl died, only if that didn't happen, we could have been there on time, now she is dead, every hope is lost". Jesus tells him something exraordinary, "Don't loose your faith, she will be saved" "Saved? But she died Lord, finished, end" Jairus could have been angry with Jesus, lough with what he heard, cry, fall down from dissapointment, anything. But he kept believing in Jesus. Why? Because the guy that said those words to him was the same guy that a few moments earlier healed a woman. Even if Jairus wanted to disbelief Jesus, a look at the woman standing next him, would discarriage him from doing so. Now we understand why God allowed that. To keep Jairus' faith strong, to keep him from dissapointment and a possible loss of faith. Because he must keep his faith to receive from Jesus his request. The story doesn't finish. When they go to the house, they see people crying and in a few minutes Jairus will see his girl dead on the bed. Jesus says to people there something that seems to be a "nuisance". People lough at Him. Why did Jesus say that? Was He in a mood to start a conversation with them? No, those words were for Jairus, Jesus is trying to keep Jairus' faith in Him, His words are for him, He assures Him indirectly that his girl is not dead, he is going to wake her up
  • GIANNIS - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Discarriage? I meant discourage.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Pt 3

    Jesus takes with him only Peter, John and James and the parents of the girl and enters the house. He doesn't want other people to enter the room, their disbelief will ruin Jairus' faith, and that should not happen no way. And so Jairus gets from God what he needed. Was his faith big? No it wasn't. He just heard of a guy called Jesus who makes miracles and claims for Himself that He is the Son of God. Who enhanced his faith? Who drived him to the very end? Jesus did that with His words and actions. This is a way to understand how wisely God works with people. We put our little faith on him and when He sees that we are sincere about it (and humble) then His help comes to us. He drives us to get what we want from Him. At the end faith in God is a gift from God himself. God is wise, He adapts Himself to the individual to help them. Because God love is. The only thing we must do is follow His instructions and that is in many ways from Him. So everything starts from God and everything finishes on Him.

    I Hope I haven't tired you. Now something that I have wriiten before, The proper definition of faith in Hebrew is as the grk text is translated more accurately. "Faith is the existence(brings into existence)of things we hope for, it is observation of things we do not see". Also it makes more sence than the Eng. translation.

    Have a blessed weekend.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 2.

    "Faith is also the evidence (elegchos) of things not being seen": True Faith also demands 'what is unseen becomes proof of its reality to us' and by extension, 'resulting in us 'being persuaded', as brother Jesse has shared elsewhere. Not that we must believe in everything (seen or unseen), but where God's Word & Spirit declares it, there cannot be an iota of doubt or else true Faith is absent. I think this aligns somewhat with your comment, "it is the observation (or, sighting) of things we do not see". For your further input brother, if you so wish.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hi Chris

    I agree with what you wrote, "Faith gives us assurance to our hopes making it reality (or our present possession), when ordinarily without faith, it remains only as hope". That is right, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. The difference in the definition of faith in Hebrews is not actually a difference, the meaning is the same nomatter the words used. GBU
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Page 1.

    Thank you brother Giannis for your input, with illustrations of the thief on the cross & Jairus' daughter.

    I don't doubt anything you've narrated about those accounts, including the likelihood of the other events surrounding them. The point is not whether the thief on the cross or Jairus were encouraged & received faith by Jesus to believe, since it is clear that from Jesus Words to them, His Presence & ministry, Jesus would have given them every reason to trust Him for what He was about to do for them. The main point in all this is, was their faith in Jesus to do the seemingly impossible, purely one of faith or intermixed (in whatever ratio) with the human element of a longing & hope that the end result would hopefully be better than their present distress? Maybe a definitive answer cannot be given, not knowing their hearts.

    Then at your last paragraph, you touched on this very matter, by sharing that "Faith is the existence (brings into existence) of things we hope for, it is observation of things we do not see". This is where I have it presented differently. Now, as a Greek speaker, your understanding of Hebrews 11:1 certainly would over-rule any Greek Lexicon available, so I might concede to you.

    But to explain my understanding briefly:

    I read it as, "Faith is now the assurance (hupostasis) of things hoped for": An expression of true Faith demands a 'confidence, a firm trust, or an assurance'. What we may be hoping for or awaiting to happen is evident in all of us (believer or non-believer). But when true Faith is applied, the hope we have becomes an 'assurance' that it is now reality; hope is dispelled & a certainty in our hearts prevail. Your comment is that "Faith brings into existence our hopes" which is true, but here I see it as a minor difference, "Faith gives us assurance to our hopes making it reality (or our present possession), when ordinarily without faith, it remains only as hope".
  • Sammi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I have always thought that the words the thief said were not his own , but that they came from the Holy Spirit . They are the words of all humanity crying out for help : Luke chapter 23 verse 40-41, these are all of our confessions . They are us . We are condemned with them , we hang either side of our Saviour . These words were spoken for us to hear and understand that they are our words , describing our state .
  • Gerald - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Thank you . In danger of thinking I simply quibbling over words forgive me .

    But unless I have misunderstood you . Faith in of and by itself is nothing . He clearly saw a king if only dimly and one who was going to conquer death and " enter into His kingdom" it was what the thief saw and understood that made him put his faith In Christ . His confession ( in the truest sense) gave substance to his hope in Christ and calling Him Lord was the evidence of things hoped for .

    "Without faith it is impossible to please God " but that too is a gift of God and it was the Lord that inspired that faith in Himself.

    The assurance as the promise given in reward to his faith .

    The faith itself was the evidence of his hope but the assurance came from the Lord .

    It is quite a difference .

    Like many other things in the religious world faith has been misunderstood misapplied in some cases and blown out of all proportion of what the scripture says it IS.

    Everyone has faith . Even those who mocked the Lord .

    As does everyone today and use it every day that is according to what faith IS .

    Faith in God works by the same principles as real faith does in anything else .

    It is how ever if put in Christ a sure and certain hope of our faith being rewarded .

    GB .
  • Sammi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I want to thank you . Your posts have inspired me in my studies . This is why this site is so great , lots of different people with different perspectives bouncing of each other can only be invigorating to all of our brains and hearts . I notice that people disagree sometimes but I think that's good ! It gets our brains going ! It doesn't do for a Christian to never have their beliefs and understandings challenged , we can all learn from each other and maybe even teach each other something new . Have you not noticed , particularly in the Gospels , how the personalities and different perspectives of the writers come through ? This is not an accident !
  • Sammi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Yes . Many of my friends and family are quite stupid I think . They put their faith in their jobs , in their bank balances , in other humans ( politicians , bosses , partners , parents , children etc ) they think I'm the crazy one ! These are for sure the blind leading the blind and we know what's going to happen to them . It's sad to be honest , so many people walking towards the pit . We , as humans , are supposed to learn from the past and from our own life experiences . Still people just don't get that this life is nothing and it's taking them nowhere . Buy this and you will be happier , you will feel superior to others who don't have what you have etc . Utter nonsense . Have faith in God and the promises that He has made to those who believe and trust and don't buy into the vanities of this world . There are wonderful eternal days to come , and we can be there . That's better than a new car any day ! Where your treasure is is where your heart is . Make Christ your treasure .
  • Alex1939 - In Reply - 2 years ago
    alex1939....Gerald love ya but disagree a bit about faith under the new Covenant...You say that Faith is nothin but thats not what Peter says about Faith...Peter said being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that liveth and abideth for ever...Without his seed which are his words we cannot be bornagain...And Faith comes by hearing his words which are his seeds that initiate Faith...Thats y he has to know US thats when the good seed is sown in our hearts...We all got here by a microcoptic seed and thats the way it is in the Spiritual realm...My lil Children of whom i travail in birth til Christ is formed in you.When a woman is pregnant she has the substance of things hoped for and the Evidence of things not seen...Which is the fetus the Evidence she has known the bridegroom...Christ is our bridegroom and he that sows that good seed in our hearts initiating a spritual pregnancy and the New Birth...And Jesus said the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom which is the H.G. As Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit (via his WORDS) thats the H.G. The Child of PROMISE.

    ....You are failing to understand there is a Child involved in his seed the contents of the book that he wrote with his own blood Even back under the O.C. there was a Child involved that Child of Promise ISAAC...That was multiplied as the sands of the seas the Nation of ISRAEL...it was Abrahams FAITH that brought this Child and the 12 tribes into being....Plz neva say Faith is nothin "everybody has it" thats not true...Faith is the result of his word and it was his word that formed the planets...Faith can only come by hearing his voice his seed...Today if you will hear his voice his seed the very seed of God...To whom the word came it made them Gods and the scripture cannot be broken..Which is the H.G. the Child of Promise...Plz remember it was God Almighty that made that Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of Heaven..Thus the Woman and her Children.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I agree, that from the perspective you've presented, specifically from your statement, "The faith itself was the evidence of his hope but the assurance came from the Lord", I would agree. However, I sought to bring up the Hebrews 11:1 definition, discussed at length in another thread, which I believe gives a more narrower view of the faith that believers are to have & that expected of the Lord.

    Even though the mention of 'faith' can bring up thoughts of the different aspects of expressing faith, such as the one you earlier gave of the London bus arriving at a bus stop, or even one having faith that someone would keep a planned appointment, etc., there's always that element of doubt, or a 'faith' that is more accurately described as 'hope'. There are many Christians, too many I suspect, that only entertain a hope that their salvation is secure, or that they will be found worthy at death to gain entrance into Heaven, and so they teeter on the edge of uncertainty. They might still call it faith, trying with all that's within them to believe that all is well, but in reality hoping that they're good enough or have done enough. Would we say that such folk have the faith that the Lord accepts & as described in Hebrews 11:1? They have trusted in the Lord, faithful in Christian exercises, but when tested on the firmness of their conviction, they falter, knowing that some doubt, even a little, causes them uneasiness.

    Whereas Hebrews 11:1 to me, appears more explicit in describing real faith. The use of the words, 'substance' & 'evidence', essentially describes a reality when nothing in the human make-up would permit or entertain such a unswerving belief. Yes, we all go through times of doubt which sometimes brings on fear, but the earnest believer will resort immediately to the Word & prayer to find assurance that what was said & done can never be undone. The thief on the cross had lost everything; his faith in Jesus' Word was not just a word of comfort but of reality.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    PT 1

    Hello Chris

    May I put my perception on this matter, faith?

    About the thief that was crucified next to Jesus, you are right that he knew what was Jesus' teaching, everybody in Israel knew, that was the only thing that was discussed between them the last 3 years. But what made him believe in Him after the initial time of his crucifixion when he was mocking Jesus together with that other thief? Here it is that I agree with Gerald. It was Jesus' behavior on the cross that made him think that that guy next to him may actually be the Savior. Also surely he had heard of all those miracles that Jesus performed the past years. Also he was in a difficult situation and we all have the experience of looking for the Lord especially when we are in any need. So his faith was produced/inspired/given by Jesus, Jesus' behavior on the cross. I also agree with Gerald that faith in the world is the same as faith in believers, the difference being to whom or what it is directed to, also by whom or what it is inspired.

    How does really God inspire us to have faith? There are various ways depending on the individual and on the specific time, place, condition, etc. But lets have a look at Jairus' incident. Here we can see how Jesus drived that man to get his daughter's healing.

    Jairus was a ruler of the synanogue. there was no way he would ever go to Jesus. What made him overvome that obstacle was his daughter's desease. Surely he had gone to the priests and other religious people of Israel, surely they prayed on the little girl, surely they laid hands on her, surely they annointed her with oil, but nothing happened. When his little girl was about to die, not much time was left, he takes the big (for him) decision to go his enemy (Jesus), there is no other hope, the girl is dying from a moment to another. So it is often the difficult/crucial situation we are in (like that thief's) that makes people go to God as their last chance in life when everything else seems to fall apart
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Good insightful thoughts concerning what happened on Calvary that day. Thank you, Gerald.



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