Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It is critical to recognize this important truth about the Nature of Salvation. Notice in Gal 2:16 and other passages that it is the Faith OF Christ that saves us. That is Christ's faithfulness in paying the full penalty required for the sins of His Elect which were chosen in Christ before the foundation of that world, drawing them, and applying that salvation to each individual by giving them their Resurrected Soul, and completing their salvation by giving them their Resurrected Spiritual Body on the Last Day.
Our faith IN Christ and IN the Word of God, the Bible, is a RESULT of our salvation and not the CAUSE nor the MEANS of our salvation. The faith that we exercise is a gift of God and a WORK that we do. And no WORK that we do can contribute to our salvation in any way.
If we are trusting in any WORK that we do as contributing to our salvation we are in danger of walking in the shoes of the man who picked up a few sticks on the Sabath Day and was executed as a result. The fourth commandment to do no WORK on the Sabath of the Old Testement was a ceremonial law pointing to the fact that the True Gospel is a gospel where God does all of the work to save us. And if we are following a gospel that requires any work on our part, we are following a false gospel that cannot save. God does ALL of the WORK in saving us.
This truth, unfortunately, has not been well understood throughout the history of National Isreal nor the Churches.
I thought it was necessary to bring clarity to a portion of my previous.
When I said Gigi this is the example I have given when one trample over the blood of Christ. Hebrews 10:29.
I was referring to another thread where I said to act as tho Christ blood shed on the cross is inadequate and try to add our filthy rags to His finish work it's like what is mentioned here in Hebrews 10:28-28.
I also would like to add.
Hebrews 10:20-24. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE HEART IN FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH, HAVING OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, AND OUR BODIES WASHED WITH PURE WATER.
LET US HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING; (FOR HE IS FAITHFUL THAT PROMISED;)
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
I agree that "Salvation is 100% the Work of God." The only thing a person has to offer for their salvation is the sin in which they need to be saved from.
Calvinism is gnostic and a false Gospel. GOD desires all men to be saved. Men have free will. People go to hell not because GOD regected them before they were even born. People go to hell because they regected GOD. On the day of judgment no one will have an accuse ( Romans 1:20), like saying "But GOD you didn't even give me a chance to believe, it's your fault I'm in here, in hell...".
Beware of Calvinism. It mocks the character of GOD and is a false gnostic gospel. Study to see it is so. All scripture in the Bible show otherwise.
In my opinion its like watching a driver speed toward a cliff and ignore warning signs to exit now, cliff ahead. Flashing lights, sirens, countless warnings all ignored because of a belief that the signs don't really mean it. The Bible is full of warnings after warnings to everyone, both believers and non-believers. It's full of challenges, parables about how most people will go to hell. Matt 7:21 should scare some who consider themselves Christians but are inactive and not following Christ's teachings. The Bible says to fear God. It says it many, many times. Christianity is a walk, an action of following Jesus's footsteps.
But other Christians seem to have been convinced that none of that matters in the Bible- that its all for nothing, because of the lie that you don't have control anyway. That's the same argument that homosexuals make- that they're the way they are, don't have choices, and they can't help but sin and how dare you tell them otherwise, because sin is part of their identity. Same argument could be used to justify other gross sins and criminal acts.
Since satan is the father of all lies, and since there's only one truth, which is satan most likely behind: that he's deceiving christians into obeying God "more than necessary" or that he's deceiving christians into believing they don't need to obey God at all?
Calvinism seems to be the ultimate have your cake and eat it too. Sin is fun and most Christians would absolutely love the opportunity to go out and commit huge sins with zero consequence and still feel 100% secure in your salvation. But unfortunately, even though we can only be saved by grace, that doesn't mean we shouldn't put 100% effort into following Christ as a real Christ follower! A common false assumption is that obeying God somehow automatically means you're trying to "earn" heaven. Straw man argument. The Bible already addressed grace and obedience in Romans 6, so its shocking to see it ignored. James 2 is hugely ignored, like cryptonite to some believers. Pray deeply about this, about the truth, that no souls are lost from believing lies.
It is true that if God had saved us we are eternally secure. But we must remember what it means to be "saved".
If God has saved us, it means that every sin that we have ever committed or will ever commit has been paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ. And we will never "again" experience the "judgment" of God which is eternal destruction.
If we have truly become saved, i.e. Born Again, it means that God has given us a New Soul, a Resurrected Soul, in which we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to what the Bible teaches, both in doctrine and in practice. There will be a huge change in our attitude and behavior toward sin.
We do still have a body that lusts after sin so we do commit sin and will never be perfectly obedient to God in our whole personality until we receive our Resurrected Spiritual Body on the Last Day.
God commands us to examine ourselves to see if we have become saved. To strive to enter in at the straight gate. And if we are not certain of our salvation we can cry to God for His Mercy in the very real hope that He might save us, if that would be His will.
A beautiful passage describing God's action in saving His Children is Eze 36:24-33. Notice that all of the action is God's action.
Matthew 12:32 "...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
So, God clearly tells us we will NOT be forgiven if we commit this sin and what I hear you saying is that we WILL. Both are not true. One is false. I tend to believe what God says, not what man says. Because God already said if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost you will NOT be forgiven then that is the truth. That makes anything contrary to that false and in some cases a blatant lie.
But maybe people don't like that verse and want to discredit it. Well, here's another then:
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
But I believe this misunderstanding has 2 dimensions. One is when we are "saved" and the other is "eternal security." The Bible doesn't say we're saved before we're judged. This is something Christians for years have been mentally "filling in the blanks" on but if you read carefully God never once said we will be instantly saved the second we believe. If you have a verse claiming that, please share it. But I can assure you for every verse you share, there's probably twice as many saying otherwise.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
"Hope" not, guarantee, but "hope." Grace "that is to be brought" future tense. It doesn't say now, or past tense.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
This refutes man's claims of being saved now and can go to adult clubs and do whatever they want. That's exactly what satan is trying to convince people of. Very clever deception.
1 Cor 9:24-27 "run the race", not the 'race was already won.'
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 10:36.
Where is your evidence of the opposite of Gods words? God bless.
The verses you quote need to be understood in the context of everything the Bible declares about the nature of our salvation.
I'm sorry Adam, but you are proclaiming a gospel of works. And if that is our gospel, we are still under the law, and subject to all the penalties associated with disobedience to the law.
If God has saved us and given us our resurrected soul, it means He has paid for all of our sins. Our obedience is then the EVIDENCE of our salvation, not the CAUSE nor the MEANS. We are no longer under the penalty of the law. Because Christ as our substitute has fully paid that penalty.
God has written the Bible in a way so that if we insist on isolating certain verses, and ignoring others that bear on the question, we will get ourselves into serious trouble. We have only come to truth, when we can harmonize all of the verses that bear on a question.
Hello David, I am following this thread between you and Adam. I hope you don't mind me entering in. I don't think that Adam is proclaiming a gospel of works at all. He stated openly that we are saved by grace. But what Adam is emphasizing is that we are "being saved" in this life towards the end of receiving the fullness of salvation when Jesus returns and we are all resurrected or changed and then judged by Jesus, which is biblically taught. The Holy spirit is our earnest, guarantee, our "taste" of salvation in this life. We have received mercy and have been made new by the work of the Holy Spirit in our conversion. But many places in Scripture warn us to stay faithful to the end. And to actually be faithful to the end we cannot do without being born again and have the Holy Spirit working in us.
Adam is has not said that we need to obey God to be saved or do any sort of "work". He does not say that we need to continue to obey God to stay saved. He does say that one can turn away from God once born again through disobedience. Our good works and obedience do not "keep" us saved, but our disobedience and apostasy will bring us back to a state of spiritual death.
Adam, correct me if I have misrepresented your viewpoint.
Within Christendom there are those who believe, as Calvinists do, that one is eternally secure once they are born again/converted, since only those who are elect can be truly converted and cannot resist God's calling.
There are others who believe that any and all people can come to salvation in Jesus by grace through faith, and that, though God draws someone to the Gospel, one can resist Him and not be converted. Also, some believe that once someone has been converted, that same person can apostatize and turn away from God. Some who do this may return to God once again and some do not. Those who do not remain unsaved into eternity.
This debate has been going on for several centuries. Probably won't be resolved.
"Adam has not said that we need to obey God to be saved or do any sort of "work". He does not say that we need to continue to obey God to stay saved. He does say that one can turn away from God once born again through disobedience. Our good works and obedience do not "keep" us saved, but our disobedience and apostasy will bring us back to a state of spiritual death."
If we have truly become "saved" it means that we have become Born Again, that God has given us a Resurrected Soul in which we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to what God reveals to us in the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice. It means that we have past from DEATH into LIFE in our Soul. It means that we are Eternaly Secure and CANNOT lose our salvation.
If we fall away it means that we in all likelyhood have not become Born Again and are still UNSAVED and remain in a condition of Spiritual Death. Not that we have returned to that state.
Wonderfully, however, that is not the end of the story. God continues to save His Elect right up until the very Last Day. Anyone that is still living, including ourselves, may be one of God's Elect and God has obligated Himself to save every one of His Elect.
But God's Elective program is GOD'S business; it is not OUR business. it's not our job to decide who are Elect and who are not. Only God knows.
If we are uncertain about our own Salvation it is still the Day of Salvation and we can still cry to God for His Mercy in the Hope that He might save us, Just like the Ninevites (Read Jonah 3 and Matt 12:41).
Psalm 34:18Psalm 51:17
If we have loved ones or others for whom we are concerened about their salvation we can, and are in fact encouraged, to pray for their salvation, if it is His will. Knowing that if they are one of His Elect, they will certainly become saved.
Always recognizing that God determines who and when He saves anyone. God does all the work of salvation on His time table
I understand what you are saying and agree. The invitation goes out to the whole world as mentioned in 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. The thing is many will not come, many will travel the wide gate as mentioned in Mathews 7:13. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: "MANY WILL BE DECEIVED"
God knows who will come to him being he is omniscient; he is all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past present and future as he stands outside of time looking in.
I believe you see an example of this in Numbers 16:5 "And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
"The knowing comes before the choosing"
WHEN IT COMES TO BACKSLIDING.
We can look at the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32 and those described as the dogs and pigs in 2 Peter 2:9-22.
The prodigal son and the pigs went back home!
THE PRODIGAL SON BACK TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE, and the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The son went the way of the world but he never lost his sonship, a lost child of God will always be found by the great shepherd!
He will return or he NEVER was a child of God.
Those described in 2 Peter 2:9-22 returned back to the world because they never were sheep.
You can "profess" Christ and go through all the motions and great deeds all your life and never have Christ and be told depart from me I never knew you. Mathews 7:21-23.
I would again encourage you and anyone interested in a thorough study of what the Bible teaches about God's Salvation Program to visit the SearchingHisWord web site and download the booklet "I Hope God Will Save Me".
There you will find literature and recorded Bible teaching that endevours to be faithful to God's Word, the Bible, the only and total authority for our lives.
Out of curiosity, and since you sent the invitation to anyone interested, I did visit the website you shared and I found the "I hope God will save me" booklet you mentioned.
There are also many other books there for one to read, mostly written by the same author (Harold Camping).
I would not recommend any of Harold Camping's books or teachings to anyone. I would caution anyone before reading any of his writings to do some research on this person first.
I can completely understand this reaction to Harold Camping and his Bible studies. However, if anyone does decide to visit the SearchingHisWord web site, please go to the Literature section and read the Introduction to that section. This will provide you with background information about Mr. Camping and His approach to the Bible and which the SearchingHisWord web site continues to hold.
As a personal testimony I will say that I have been exceptionally blessed by Mr. Camping's studies. However, no Bible teacher is infallible. Only the Bible itself is absolutely true and trustworthy. And Mr. Camping constantly reminded His listeners to check him out by going back to the Bible as their only authority.
Okay, I would like you to be the first person to say to someone who has called on the name of the Lord to be saved and believed the gospel, but has then turned away, that they were never really saved or born again when they first called on God to be saved, This makes God out to be a liar in His word and will likely cause someone to resist returning to such a God who will not truly save someone who seeks Him to be saved through Jesus. I know many people who have this history. My sons are among these, i will never tell them that, though believe since childhood and into their teens but then turned away that they were never saved or born again. This implies that children may not be truly saved when they believe the gospel. Or someone who was a strong believer for many years and through hardships or the draw of the world has turn away. You be the first to tell such a person, that God did not really save them when they believed all those years.
Jesus said that I have come to save the lost, even those who where "of His flock" and turned away. He leaves the 99 and seeks after the one who strayed. In the parable of the prodigal son, who was of His household, but walked away, upon his return the father said that his son was dead; but now he is alive.
But, David, I do not want to make an debate over this topic. I understand your viewpoint and respect that you are free to keep it, as I can do with mine.
Hi David, I was wondering how you would explain that and reconcile what the Bible says with your belief.
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
Ok, I don't share that particular belief with you because of what the Bible says:
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
Gal 5:4 "ye are fallen from grace."
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12 KJV
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10 KJV
Salvation is conditional upon following Christ. Those who hate or don't follow Christ aren't going to be saved, based on what the Bible says.
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
I don't know how some can read these verses and twist them into meaning anything other than what they mean. This should be prayed about very deeply.
I also believe in eternal security, or as you put it, "Once saved, always saved."
Ephesians 1:14 would also add to the verse you have shared. It says, "Which (or who) is the earnest (or guarantee) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It's after we heard, after we believed, we were sealed. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. He doesn't give us a seal. He is the seal.
He's the mark of ownership and He has sealed the believer so that no spiritual force or otherwise can penetrate their spirit. They've been sealed by the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit of Christ.
It's nice to know that in the midst of our weaknesses that the presence of God's Spirit is our guarantee, until the redemption of the purchased possession.
Since redemption means purchased, it is making reference to the coming of Christ, when our redemption will be realized.
We've been purchased and we're sitting at the will call window, so to speak. He hasn't picked us up yet. But when Christ comes, He's going to come for the purchased possession. That's every believer.
Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we are sealed with the Spirit of God "until" Christ comes.
So every believer is preserved. We're being kept for Christ at His coming. That's our guarantee that we are being preserved for Him.
We have eternal life in Christ Jesus. I have eternal life, not based on my human performance, but because Christ lives in me, and He is eternal.
Gigi this is the example I have given when one trample over the blood of Christ. Hebrews 10:29.
Romans 10:4-11. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION.
( If you claim you don't know that you are saved until you die and is judged how do you confess it?
WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION IS TO LATE IF YOU ARE DEAD!
( Here's one of many verses that speaks on eternal security)
FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAITH, WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.
Was not Christ judged on the cross taking the penalty of our sins? Yes.
Was he not the Lamb of God? Yes.
Was it sufficient? Isaiah 53:7-10.
How many of those sins was future?
If you can earn it you can loose it.
But if it is a gift and you didn't earn it, how could you loose it?
We are saved by GRACE.
For by grace are ye saved "THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10.
Hello Adam and David. I think both of you have made good points concerning the teaching of Scripture.
My understanding of what David was emphasizing is that from the standpoint of Galatians 2:16, our justification is based wholly on what Jesus did to bring about our salvation. Also, elsewhere, in Romans 3:22, it is said that our righteousness is not of ourselves but of "the faith of Jesus," (this is the same phraseology as used in Gal. 2:16). This Romans verse is attributing our righteousness to that of Christ's pure righteousness being imputed to us. So, in both of these verses, justification and righteousness come from Jesus and even our faith comes from Him. It is a gift that we received that enables us to believe the Gospel. Adam, I think that you have stated such in past posts, as I recall. So, I think we a ll agree on these points, but I may be mistaken.
What is at issue here, from what I can tell, is the matter of the extent of the freedom of man's will in being able to choose to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians will speak as David has, that mankind cannot on his own will choose to turn to God or believe. We must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We can not regenerate ourselves. Along with this regeneration comes the gift of faith and the power of the Spirit to activate this faith. Many who believe along this line of theology will say that man's corruption from sin has left his free will depraved and able to only choose to not serve God, have faith in Him, and turn to Him.
This is why there needs to be an initial action from God to regenerate us and make us new so that our free will can be made new (along with the rest of our being) so that we can turn to God and walk in faith provided for us in Jesus Christ.
There are other Christians who believe that we are able to cooperate with the Spirit of God to believe before we are regenerated. This would mean that man's free will was corrupted ny sin but not to the point that he cannot desire after God.
The Bible is crystal clear that in our unsaved condition, all of mankind following the sin of Adam is "DEAD in trespasses and sins" and "in BONDAGE to sin" and "SLAVES of satan". And that "there is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE", there is NONE that seaketh after God"
Unsaved man does not have a free will in any spiritual sense. We cannot and will not seek God with OUR WHOLE HEART until God gives us a NEW HEART.
Hello, thanks for sharing but that's not what God says in His word.
What scripture verse do you claim to be the source of your idea that faith is a result of salvation?
And what scripture verse do you cite to claim that you're saved now before you're even judged?
Paul said the one verse you're citing, but did you notice that Paul also warned ( 1 Cor 4:14) Christians to obey and not stray from the faith. God gives you that choice- he will allow you to commit despicable evil as we see people do every day, as is covered by the news. Christians also leave the faith, as evidenced by those we know in person and those forum groups like on Reddit where they talk about it. To deny this reality is to deny truth. Did God cause them to leave the faith? No, people did using their own freewill and bad choices. They will not be saved if they are not following Christ. Not all Christians will be "saved" on judgment day.
I don't know if you believe in freewill or not, that God is forcing you to type things on this site you don't want to say of if you believe you are doing it. If God forces you to eat things you don't want to eat like Taco Bell or ice cream. But about freewill of course there's only one truth- either its true or not, not both. And its true for me, so are people claiming its not true for them? And is that God speaking through them that its not true or is that their own doing and how can they 100% prove they are not in control of their bodies whatsoever? Some may be deceived and use this as justification to sin against God and perhaps some may be dishonest about it.
1 Cor 4:5 says to judge nothing before the Lord comes and then the Lord will then judge us, but people seem to like judging themselves as saved so some can then make excuses to disobey God.
Romans 15:5 Paul says we need endurance. He warns us, says to endure, and 1 Corinthians 9:24 says to run the race so to win the prize. The refutes the popular narrative.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” Hebrews 10:26, James 2:14-26, Matthew 7:21-23
Another thing that may be at play here is what Adam speaks to about not being saved until the end since Jesus said that whoever endures to the end (in faith) will be saved and that the completed salvation of all of our being is a yet to be fulfilled event. I don't think that David was necessarily speaking about this, but it does speak to whether one who believes in Jesus can turn away from their faith and thus be in a lost state again. Adam, you made some good points on this topic. It deserves much consideration to come to understand what the Scriptures really teach about the security of believers.
While I am not her committing to any specific view, as I do not wish to choose sides. But this conversation is very interesting to me and I am looking forward to reading more from both of you. Thank you for sharing your ideas.
We must not use the fact that we are not saved by our works as an excuse to not help out other people . Remember Matthew chapter 25 verse 31-46 and James chapter 2 .
I totally agree , good works are the result of our knowledge of the love of God towards us and our willingness to show the love of God to others . That's how I see it . I cannot be saved by anything I do , I feel the love of God and His blessings in my life and I want grow in love . Love is not something I'm very good at , so I asked God to help me with it and He has helped me and now , because I can feel love I want to express it . Is that a bad thing ? Believe me , when I was young I had a heart of stone and in my twenties I realised that it probably wasn't a good thing for me . Thanks to God I now have a heart of flesh .
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It is critical to recognize this important truth about the Nature of Salvation. Notice in Gal 2:16 and other passages that it is the Faith OF Christ that saves us. That is Christ's faithfulness in paying the full penalty required for the sins of His Elect which were chosen in Christ before the foundation of that world, drawing them, and applying that salvation to each individual by giving them their Resurrected Soul, and completing their salvation by giving them their Resurrected Spiritual Body on the Last Day.
Our faith IN Christ and IN the Word of God, the Bible, is a RESULT of our salvation and not the CAUSE nor the MEANS of our salvation. The faith that we exercise is a gift of God and a WORK that we do. And no WORK that we do can contribute to our salvation in any way.
If we are trusting in any WORK that we do as contributing to our salvation we are in danger of walking in the shoes of the man who picked up a few sticks on the Sabath Day and was executed as a result. The fourth commandment to do no WORK on the Sabath of the Old Testement was a ceremonial law pointing to the fact that the True Gospel is a gospel where God does all of the work to save us. And if we are following a gospel that requires any work on our part, we are following a false gospel that cannot save. God does ALL of the WORK in saving us.
This truth, unfortunately, has not been well understood throughout the history of National Isreal nor the Churches.
When I said Gigi this is the example I have given when one trample over the blood of Christ. Hebrews 10:29.
I was referring to another thread where I said to act as tho Christ blood shed on the cross is inadequate and try to add our filthy rags to His finish work it's like what is mentioned here in Hebrews 10:28-28.
I also would like to add.
Hebrews 10:20-24. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE HEART IN FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH, HAVING OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, AND OUR BODIES WASHED WITH PURE WATER.
LET US HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING; (FOR HE IS FAITHFUL THAT PROMISED;)
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
We can be sure!!
I agree that "Salvation is 100% the Work of God." The only thing a person has to offer for their salvation is the sin in which they need to be saved from.
Beware of Calvinism. It mocks the character of GOD and is a false gnostic gospel. Study to see it is so. All scripture in the Bible show otherwise.
In my opinion its like watching a driver speed toward a cliff and ignore warning signs to exit now, cliff ahead. Flashing lights, sirens, countless warnings all ignored because of a belief that the signs don't really mean it. The Bible is full of warnings after warnings to everyone, both believers and non-believers. It's full of challenges, parables about how most people will go to hell. Matt 7:21 should scare some who consider themselves Christians but are inactive and not following Christ's teachings. The Bible says to fear God. It says it many, many times. Christianity is a walk, an action of following Jesus's footsteps.
But other Christians seem to have been convinced that none of that matters in the Bible- that its all for nothing, because of the lie that you don't have control anyway. That's the same argument that homosexuals make- that they're the way they are, don't have choices, and they can't help but sin and how dare you tell them otherwise, because sin is part of their identity. Same argument could be used to justify other gross sins and criminal acts.
Since satan is the father of all lies, and since there's only one truth, which is satan most likely behind: that he's deceiving christians into obeying God "more than necessary" or that he's deceiving christians into believing they don't need to obey God at all?
Calvinism seems to be the ultimate have your cake and eat it too. Sin is fun and most Christians would absolutely love the opportunity to go out and commit huge sins with zero consequence and still feel 100% secure in your salvation. But unfortunately, even though we can only be saved by grace, that doesn't mean we shouldn't put 100% effort into following Christ as a real Christ follower! A common false assumption is that obeying God somehow automatically means you're trying to "earn" heaven. Straw man argument. The Bible already addressed grace and obedience in Romans 6, so its shocking to see it ignored. James 2 is hugely ignored, like cryptonite to some believers. Pray deeply about this, about the truth, that no souls are lost from believing lies.
It is true that if God had saved us we are eternally secure. But we must remember what it means to be "saved".
If God has saved us, it means that every sin that we have ever committed or will ever commit has been paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ. And we will never "again" experience the "judgment" of God which is eternal destruction.
If we have truly become saved, i.e. Born Again, it means that God has given us a New Soul, a Resurrected Soul, in which we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to what the Bible teaches, both in doctrine and in practice. There will be a huge change in our attitude and behavior toward sin.
We do still have a body that lusts after sin so we do commit sin and will never be perfectly obedient to God in our whole personality until we receive our Resurrected Spiritual Body on the Last Day.
God commands us to examine ourselves to see if we have become saved. To strive to enter in at the straight gate. And if we are not certain of our salvation we can cry to God for His Mercy in the very real hope that He might save us, if that would be His will.
A beautiful passage describing God's action in saving His Children is Eze 36:24-33. Notice that all of the action is God's action.
God said this:
Matthew 12:32 "...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
So, God clearly tells us we will NOT be forgiven if we commit this sin and what I hear you saying is that we WILL. Both are not true. One is false. I tend to believe what God says, not what man says. Because God already said if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost you will NOT be forgiven then that is the truth. That makes anything contrary to that false and in some cases a blatant lie.
But maybe people don't like that verse and want to discredit it. Well, here's another then:
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
But I believe this misunderstanding has 2 dimensions. One is when we are "saved" and the other is "eternal security." The Bible doesn't say we're saved before we're judged. This is something Christians for years have been mentally "filling in the blanks" on but if you read carefully God never once said we will be instantly saved the second we believe. If you have a verse claiming that, please share it. But I can assure you for every verse you share, there's probably twice as many saying otherwise.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
"Hope" not, guarantee, but "hope." Grace "that is to be brought" future tense. It doesn't say now, or past tense.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
This refutes man's claims of being saved now and can go to adult clubs and do whatever they want. That's exactly what satan is trying to convince people of. Very clever deception.
1 Cor 9:24-27 "run the race", not the 'race was already won.'
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 10:36.
Where is your evidence of the opposite of Gods words? God bless.
I'm sorry Adam, but you are proclaiming a gospel of works. And if that is our gospel, we are still under the law, and subject to all the penalties associated with disobedience to the law.
If God has saved us and given us our resurrected soul, it means He has paid for all of our sins. Our obedience is then the EVIDENCE of our salvation, not the CAUSE nor the MEANS. We are no longer under the penalty of the law. Because Christ as our substitute has fully paid that penalty.
God has written the Bible in a way so that if we insist on isolating certain verses, and ignoring others that bear on the question, we will get ourselves into serious trouble. We have only come to truth, when we can harmonize all of the verses that bear on a question.
Adam is has not said that we need to obey God to be saved or do any sort of "work". He does not say that we need to continue to obey God to stay saved. He does say that one can turn away from God once born again through disobedience. Our good works and obedience do not "keep" us saved, but our disobedience and apostasy will bring us back to a state of spiritual death.
Adam, correct me if I have misrepresented your viewpoint.
Within Christendom there are those who believe, as Calvinists do, that one is eternally secure once they are born again/converted, since only those who are elect can be truly converted and cannot resist God's calling.
There are others who believe that any and all people can come to salvation in Jesus by grace through faith, and that, though God draws someone to the Gospel, one can resist Him and not be converted. Also, some believe that once someone has been converted, that same person can apostatize and turn away from God. Some who do this may return to God once again and some do not. Those who do not remain unsaved into eternity.
This debate has been going on for several centuries. Probably won't be resolved.
I quote from your response to Adam...
"Adam has not said that we need to obey God to be saved or do any sort of "work". He does not say that we need to continue to obey God to stay saved. He does say that one can turn away from God once born again through disobedience. Our good works and obedience do not "keep" us saved, but our disobedience and apostasy will bring us back to a state of spiritual death."
If we have truly become "saved" it means that we have become Born Again, that God has given us a Resurrected Soul in which we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to what God reveals to us in the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice. It means that we have past from DEATH into LIFE in our Soul. It means that we are Eternaly Secure and CANNOT lose our salvation.
If we fall away it means that we in all likelyhood have not become Born Again and are still UNSAVED and remain in a condition of Spiritual Death. Not that we have returned to that state.
Wonderfully, however, that is not the end of the story. God continues to save His Elect right up until the very Last Day. Anyone that is still living, including ourselves, may be one of God's Elect and God has obligated Himself to save every one of His Elect.
But God's Elective program is GOD'S business; it is not OUR business. it's not our job to decide who are Elect and who are not. Only God knows.
If we are uncertain about our own Salvation it is still the Day of Salvation and we can still cry to God for His Mercy in the Hope that He might save us, Just like the Ninevites (Read Jonah 3 and Matt 12:41).
Psalm 34:18 Psalm 51:17
If we have loved ones or others for whom we are concerened about their salvation we can, and are in fact encouraged, to pray for their salvation, if it is His will. Knowing that if they are one of His Elect, they will certainly become saved.
Always recognizing that God determines who and when He saves anyone. God does all the work of salvation on His time table
I understand what you are saying and agree. The invitation goes out to the whole world as mentioned in 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. The thing is many will not come, many will travel the wide gate as mentioned in Mathews 7:13. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: "MANY WILL BE DECEIVED"
God knows who will come to him being he is omniscient; he is all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past present and future as he stands outside of time looking in.
I believe you see an example of this in Numbers 16:5 "And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
"The knowing comes before the choosing"
WHEN IT COMES TO BACKSLIDING.
We can look at the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32 and those described as the dogs and pigs in 2 Peter 2:9-22.
The prodigal son and the pigs went back home!
THE PRODIGAL SON BACK TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE, and the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The son went the way of the world but he never lost his sonship, a lost child of God will always be found by the great shepherd!
He will return or he NEVER was a child of God.
Those described in 2 Peter 2:9-22 returned back to the world because they never were sheep.
You can "profess" Christ and go through all the motions and great deeds all your life and never have Christ and be told depart from me I never knew you. Mathews 7:21-23.
God bless.
I would again encourage you and anyone interested in a thorough study of what the Bible teaches about God's Salvation Program to visit the SearchingHisWord web site and download the booklet "I Hope God Will Save Me".
There you will find literature and recorded Bible teaching that endevours to be faithful to God's Word, the Bible, the only and total authority for our lives.
Out of curiosity, and since you sent the invitation to anyone interested, I did visit the website you shared and I found the "I hope God will save me" booklet you mentioned.
There are also many other books there for one to read, mostly written by the same author (Harold Camping).
I would not recommend any of Harold Camping's books or teachings to anyone. I would caution anyone before reading any of his writings to do some research on this person first.
As a personal testimony I will say that I have been exceptionally blessed by Mr. Camping's studies. However, no Bible teacher is infallible. Only the Bible itself is absolutely true and trustworthy. And Mr. Camping constantly reminded His listeners to check him out by going back to the Bible as their only authority.
Okay, I would like you to be the first person to say to someone who has called on the name of the Lord to be saved and believed the gospel, but has then turned away, that they were never really saved or born again when they first called on God to be saved, This makes God out to be a liar in His word and will likely cause someone to resist returning to such a God who will not truly save someone who seeks Him to be saved through Jesus. I know many people who have this history. My sons are among these, i will never tell them that, though believe since childhood and into their teens but then turned away that they were never saved or born again. This implies that children may not be truly saved when they believe the gospel. Or someone who was a strong believer for many years and through hardships or the draw of the world has turn away. You be the first to tell such a person, that God did not really save them when they believed all those years.
Jesus said that I have come to save the lost, even those who where "of His flock" and turned away. He leaves the 99 and seeks after the one who strayed. In the parable of the prodigal son, who was of His household, but walked away, upon his return the father said that his son was dead; but now he is alive.
But, David, I do not want to make an debate over this topic. I understand your viewpoint and respect that you are free to keep it, as I can do with mine.
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
Matthew 7:21-23
Hebrews 10:26
Hebrews 6:4-6
James 2:14-26
Matthew 12:31-32
Romans 14:12
1 Peter 1:5
1 Cor 9:24-27
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:5-18
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
Hebrews 3:12
Galatians 5:4
1 Corinthians 15:2-8
About Salvation, Ephesians 1:13. Once someone hears the Gospel and believes he is SEALED. Once saved always saved.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
Gal 5:4 "ye are fallen from grace."
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12 KJV
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10 KJV
Salvation is conditional upon following Christ. Those who hate or don't follow Christ aren't going to be saved, based on what the Bible says.
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
I don't know how some can read these verses and twist them into meaning anything other than what they mean. This should be prayed about very deeply.
God bless.
I also believe in eternal security, or as you put it, "Once saved, always saved."
Ephesians 1:14 would also add to the verse you have shared. It says, "Which (or who) is the earnest (or guarantee) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It's after we heard, after we believed, we were sealed. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. He doesn't give us a seal. He is the seal.
He's the mark of ownership and He has sealed the believer so that no spiritual force or otherwise can penetrate their spirit. They've been sealed by the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit of Christ.
It's nice to know that in the midst of our weaknesses that the presence of God's Spirit is our guarantee, until the redemption of the purchased possession.
Since redemption means purchased, it is making reference to the coming of Christ, when our redemption will be realized.
We've been purchased and we're sitting at the will call window, so to speak. He hasn't picked us up yet. But when Christ comes, He's going to come for the purchased possession. That's every believer.
Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we are sealed with the Spirit of God "until" Christ comes.
So every believer is preserved. We're being kept for Christ at His coming. That's our guarantee that we are being preserved for Him.
We have eternal life in Christ Jesus. I have eternal life, not based on my human performance, but because Christ lives in me, and He is eternal.
Gigi this is the example I have given when one trample over the blood of Christ. Hebrews 10:29.
Romans 10:4-11. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION.
( If you claim you don't know that you are saved until you die and is judged how do you confess it?
WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION IS TO LATE IF YOU ARE DEAD!
( Here's one of many verses that speaks on eternal security)
FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAITH, WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.
Was not Christ judged on the cross taking the penalty of our sins? Yes.
Was he not the Lamb of God? Yes.
Was it sufficient? Isaiah 53:7-10.
How many of those sins was future?
If you can earn it you can loose it.
But if it is a gift and you didn't earn it, how could you loose it?
We are saved by GRACE.
For by grace are ye saved "THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10.
Grace can't be taken away.
God bless.
My understanding of what David was emphasizing is that from the standpoint of Galatians 2:16, our justification is based wholly on what Jesus did to bring about our salvation. Also, elsewhere, in Romans 3:22, it is said that our righteousness is not of ourselves but of "the faith of Jesus," (this is the same phraseology as used in Gal. 2:16). This Romans verse is attributing our righteousness to that of Christ's pure righteousness being imputed to us. So, in both of these verses, justification and righteousness come from Jesus and even our faith comes from Him. It is a gift that we received that enables us to believe the Gospel. Adam, I think that you have stated such in past posts, as I recall. So, I think we a ll agree on these points, but I may be mistaken.
What is at issue here, from what I can tell, is the matter of the extent of the freedom of man's will in being able to choose to have faith in Jesus. Many Christians will speak as David has, that mankind cannot on his own will choose to turn to God or believe. We must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We can not regenerate ourselves. Along with this regeneration comes the gift of faith and the power of the Spirit to activate this faith. Many who believe along this line of theology will say that man's corruption from sin has left his free will depraved and able to only choose to not serve God, have faith in Him, and turn to Him.
This is why there needs to be an initial action from God to regenerate us and make us new so that our free will can be made new (along with the rest of our being) so that we can turn to God and walk in faith provided for us in Jesus Christ.
There are other Christians who believe that we are able to cooperate with the Spirit of God to believe before we are regenerated. This would mean that man's free will was corrupted ny sin but not to the point that he cannot desire after God.
The Bible is crystal clear that in our unsaved condition, all of mankind following the sin of Adam is "DEAD in trespasses and sins" and "in BONDAGE to sin" and "SLAVES of satan". And that "there is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE", there is NONE that seaketh after God"
Unsaved man does not have a free will in any spiritual sense. We cannot and will not seek God with OUR WHOLE HEART until God gives us a NEW HEART.
What scripture verse do you claim to be the source of your idea that faith is a result of salvation?
And what scripture verse do you cite to claim that you're saved now before you're even judged?
Paul said the one verse you're citing, but did you notice that Paul also warned ( 1 Cor 4:14) Christians to obey and not stray from the faith. God gives you that choice- he will allow you to commit despicable evil as we see people do every day, as is covered by the news. Christians also leave the faith, as evidenced by those we know in person and those forum groups like on Reddit where they talk about it. To deny this reality is to deny truth. Did God cause them to leave the faith? No, people did using their own freewill and bad choices. They will not be saved if they are not following Christ. Not all Christians will be "saved" on judgment day.
I don't know if you believe in freewill or not, that God is forcing you to type things on this site you don't want to say of if you believe you are doing it. If God forces you to eat things you don't want to eat like Taco Bell or ice cream. But about freewill of course there's only one truth- either its true or not, not both. And its true for me, so are people claiming its not true for them? And is that God speaking through them that its not true or is that their own doing and how can they 100% prove they are not in control of their bodies whatsoever? Some may be deceived and use this as justification to sin against God and perhaps some may be dishonest about it.
1 Cor 4:5 says to judge nothing before the Lord comes and then the Lord will then judge us, but people seem to like judging themselves as saved so some can then make excuses to disobey God.
Romans 15:5 Paul says we need endurance. He warns us, says to endure, and 1 Corinthians 9:24 says to run the race so to win the prize. The refutes the popular narrative.
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
Hebrews 10:26, James 2:14-26, Matthew 7:21-23
Part 2
continued...and desire salvation.
Another thing that may be at play here is what Adam speaks to about not being saved until the end since Jesus said that whoever endures to the end (in faith) will be saved and that the completed salvation of all of our being is a yet to be fulfilled event. I don't think that David was necessarily speaking about this, but it does speak to whether one who believes in Jesus can turn away from their faith and thus be in a lost state again. Adam, you made some good points on this topic. It deserves much consideration to come to understand what the Scriptures really teach about the security of believers.
While I am not her committing to any specific view, as I do not wish to choose sides. But this conversation is very interesting to me and I am looking forward to reading more from both of you. Thank you for sharing your ideas.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?