Bible Discussion Thread

Knowledge of Good and Evil: Analysis

A day or two ago; I quoted Paul in Romans 7:9-11 where he stated that before he knew about sin it didn't have a hold on him but then now that he does it slayed him (my own rough translation). THe LAW of course was what caused the death sentence; as many of has have read that he who doesn't follow the law completely ( James 2:10) and breaks it in one area breaks it all.

In looking at the garden and the tree of knowledge of good and evil it is good at first to examine what we can surmise about man (in this case Adam and Eve) in an innocent state; before the fall. In a sinless state; there would be no compulsion or even understanding of doing anything sinful and hence displeasing to God. Therefore man could have remained in this state of innocence had the tree of life been eaten at this time. Theoretically; since the tree of life HAD no restrictions on it they were free to eat it; but by Divine Providence they did not; because of God's foreknowledge that they were going to be fallen and that would put them in that state forever. The potential certainly existed in Adam and Eve much as it did with Satan in his glory as Lucifer in the beginning. Wisdom of knowing good from evil actually is something as Christians we need to pursue. To seek it for their own betterment or somehow because God was trying to cheat them out of something of course was the first wrong concept Satan was able to infest their minds with. This lack of trust in God led to them trusting themselves; and hence no doubt to TRUST Satan's lie was more to their benefit than their Creator's commands. Just how LONG this took isn't exactly clear for the fall to occur; just as with Satan. In Satan's case it certainly must have been quite a campaign to get that many angels to rebel that took some time.

No doubt the knowledge of evil and the sin itself was already occuring at some point after the serpent's message was heard; heeded and followed through.

Hi Elliux2,

Thank you for sharing. I will continue to think on what you've said. Much appreciation.

Peace

GOD IS

Hi GiGi,

I can appreciate the time taken in your reply. Thank you. I continue to pray for you.

I just read a recent post reminding someone about the guidelines (2nd half of first paragraph). I bring this up, as I'm concerned, and realize my comments may appear to others as an attack on Christianity, or close to it.

My introduction to Christianity began as a young child, having a devout Christian mother. Since then, I was fairly consistent in my involvement in church, until around fifteen years ago. I continued though, reading and meditating on the Bible and God. I can't remember the last time, even on a bad day, when I haven't thought about God. I'm certain you and millions others can relate.

I'm also certain that if I respond to you in complete honesty, not withholding comments and questions important to me,which I would pray and hope would lead towards better understanding, I would probably be banned. I don't want that. Yet, although I wish this was not the case, I know myself well enough, it would upset me to upset you and others. I don't want that; for any of us participating. I perceive your integrity, thus I understand you would not want to have a dialogue with someone who could not speak freely while you could. Please understand, I don't feel slighted or hold any bitterness. It's just the way it is.

I'm not saying that I won't participate any more. I'm not sure; I try not to make these decisions on my own. If I do, I'll need to lean NOT on my own discernment.

Peace

GOD IS

I suppose this post has been up; I didn't know my opinion was of interest-seems like Gigi did an extensive one; and "ontological" is beyond my "pay grade" in terms of scientific vocabulary.

I tried to start responding and as always my extra tabs wiped out the page. Anyway; it is somewhat heartening that you seem to know the Lord.

Starting off here; I'm too lazy to once again get all the exact quotes. Roughly speaking I was going to say that in Psalm 139 we are said to be "fearfully and wonderfully made." In Ecclesiastes 7:29 the "uprightness" of man is mentioned but that he goes astray for "many inventions". A big point many make is about the age of accountability. I can't see how anyone is lost forever in condemnation without understanding some basic things about sin and punishment which probably begins with child rearing. David's quote about the child that died seems to indicate a certainty that he will see him someday but not until he dies ( 2 Samuel 12:23).

Sin; death and decay (as brought up through the concept of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) really can't be explained other than it happens; much like concepts like gravity. I would say simply the spirit of a man lives foreever; whether in restored (saved) condition or lost. Man would have lived forever in an "innocent" state if he hadn't sinned. This would not have enabled him to rule and reign with Christ as we can now; nor fulfilled His plans for free agents in the spirit realm to choose to rebel or remain with Him in their "proper estate". ( Jude 1:6). Whether we understand sin as we get older we see more and more of the effects. God has designed this world to unwind; and eventually be destroyed and replaced with a new heaven and earth. Things in the sovereignty of God ( Deut. 29:29) remain there at least this side of eternity. Proverbs 25:2 states that kings have some things revealed which may suggest as "kings and priests" in Him some understanding comes. We are not God who knows all.

Good afternoon, One Eighty.

Thank you for sharing where you are coming from. It is ok with me if you do not respond to what I posted. I just did not want to give a light reply to your thoughtful queries. I hope you stay with us here. I pray that God will bless you today and always.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you. Your thoughtful replies whether short or lengthy, are so much appreciated, and not in vain. I think you'll agree, we

have no clue, in general, as to what degree, and when our thoughts and words have on others, whether positive or sadly, negative, yet we understand they will. Yet, I don't want to speak for you.

It is my intention to continue thinking on what you and Richard thoughtfully wrote. Whether I agree or not really doesn't matter as much as having a respectful, loving attitude towards everyone. In retrospect, I realize I have been a bit emphatic at times, with my words, which maybe seemed disrespectful to some. Damn ego. My apologies to anyone who's perceived that I've disrespected them, and would ask, for their own benefit as well as mine, to forgive me.

Peace GiGi

GOD IS

One Eighty, Nothing you have written has offended me. I just took your posts as from one who sincerely wants to explore the queries that come up when thinking about God and other spiritual matters. Have a good evening.

[Comment Removed]

part 2

Hi again,

You mentioned the word "good", in reference to how God described His creation. Is not "good" a term containing numerous varying degrees? e.g., kind of good, pretty good, extremely near perfect good, and so on. Not so with the word "perfect". There are no degrees symbolized in "perfect". Something is either perfect or it is flawed; no in-betweens either. Respectfully and sincerely, I ask: does anyone understand how good God's creation is? Therefore, perfection, in my mind, is much easier to perceive correctly than "good". I agree with Richard that Adam and Eve were in a sinless state in an idyllic place. I associate "sinless state" with perfect, or holy, or a state of perfect love. We believe God is perfect AND eternal, don't we. So, if Adam and Eve were in a sinless state, they had to have been in an eternal, perfect, sinless state. This is because holiness and eternity are one, meaning, they can't be separated. Neither can God from His extension (creation).They are One. I don't have that ability, or power to usurp God, thus making Him fatherless.

I hope I haven't misconstrued anything you or anyone else has said, therefore, please correct me for doing so.

Peace and blessings to you.

GOD IS

One Eighty'

Part 6 In conclusion,

So there exists the one true God alone and unique from all creation. He is not a part of creation, nor is creation a part of Him.

He IS able and did create everything that exists outside of His essential Being and none of these created things are like Him. He

repeatedly says that there is no one like Him, none can come close to comparison to Him in being, character, eternity,

infiniteness, sovereignty, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, majesty, glory, or essence. He abides in inapproachable

light. In order for any being to know Him, He must make Himself known to them, whether angels or humans. He always must

condescend to make Himself known and avail Himself in and to creation, whether in heaven or on earth or anywhere in the

universe. God is SO GREAT, we cannot fathom what He is like in totality. He has revealed to us what is necessary for us to know

to be redeemed so that we can then be glorified with Jesus in heaven. This state is the end (both final and aim) of man's

creation. The way Adam and Eve were created before the fall was not the end state of mankind. It was a prelude to what God

had always wanted man to become through Christ. A people bought by His Son through the sacrifice of Calvary, forgiven of their

sin, cleansed from all unrighteousness, made holy by Christ's righteousness, to be presented to Christ as His uncorrupted,

immortal eternal bride in the resurrection to the glory of God.

One Eighty, you have posed some thought provoking ideas in your posts to Richard and I, which I appreciate. I believe you bring

these up because you want to deepen your understanding on these topics. I have endeavored to "give you what I got", so to

speak. I hope my thoughts are helpful to you and drive you to further study to see if what I say is indeed correct or not.

*Just a note: Ontological means that which pertains to the essential nature of a being. "What" one is.

One Eighty,

Part 5

We need to make a distinction from using the word "flesh" to denote biological flesh (our body, bones, blood, tissues, organs,

etc.), "flesh" meaning mortal mankind in general, and "flesh" meaning our sinful nature. When Adam and Eve were created all

of these forms of flesh were created good, without corruption. Man was made of biological materials, but also have spiritual and

soulful components which was uncorrupted, too. So, Scripture shows us that humans can be both fleshly and spiritual and be

good, but this was only before the fall of Adam and Eve. Angels do not have a fleshly biological nature like us. They are only

spiritual beings, but can be corrupted, as Satan and the fallen angels show us clearly. So, your deduction that Mankind needs to



be either fleshly or spiritual and not both is incorrect.

You also stated along the lines that "shouldn't anything that comes from God be exactly like Him when it comes to character,

Who or What God Is?" I will definitely say "no" to that query, because rocks, planets, energy are not exactly like God, nor are

angels and humans and animals created exactly like God. Even we can tell that animals, humans and angels are not exactly the

same either. God intended to make a vast innumerably diverse creation that was not exactly like Him. he never intended to

replicate Himself, because He cannot do that. It is impossible for God to create any creature exactly like Himself because He was

never created. The fact that this newly created creature was created by God shows that the two are not exactly similar to one

another. And if it was possible, then God would have created something beside Himself that was God and these beings could

then go on and create others like themselves leaving creation with an infinite number of gods. The Bible clearly states that God

is the only God that exists and none came before Him and none will be made after Him. ( Isaiah 47:8).

One Eighty

Part 5

Adam and Eve were created "good" in every way that a creature can be created. God deemed that they would be given free

agency as He also gave to angels with the possibility to be corrupted. He knew this was the best way for Himself to be glorified in

creation. God knew that this fee agency gave angels and humans the ability to will to follow God in faithful obedience or not. He

also knew that Satan, the fallen angels, Adam, Eve, and all of mankind would not do so even before He created them. In His

divine wisdom, God created these beings this way to display His glory through His interactions with them. We do not know His

divine wisdom in this because He did not reveal it all to mankind. We just have to believe that the way God created angels and

humans is the best, most complete and perfect way for God to have done so. It does not make God unholy to create beings that

can be corrupted by evil they themselves create. Nor does it make evil or sin more powerful than God because it corrupts these

beings. Many people think of evil and sin as actual entities; things created, which would make God the creator of evil. But I

think this is a false view of evil and sin. Evil and sin are things that creatures create in what they think, devise, and do. they do

not have lives of their own outside of the creature who generates it. That is why Christian thought says that mankind is corrupt

in all of his being, having made himself this way by volitional choice. So, angels and humans are the source of sin and evil. This

does not exclude evil entities such as the devil, demons, powers, principalities and authorities in high places. But the evil, itself

does not exist on its own independently of the entity doing the evil.

With this being said, One Eighty, you asked how can humans be fleshly and spirit at once, thinking that it is impossible. But

Scripture does speak otherwise.

One Eighty,

Part 4

When God created angels and man, He made them alive by His power to create life, but this is not the every-existing, limitless

life of God. It is life that is limited and dependent upon God's power to continue this existence. It is creaturely life, not divine

life. It is subject to time and space and change. These are not aspects of Divine Life.

When God created animals, he gave them a fleshly life without a spirit and soul. Animals are strictly flesh and bones and

material, although they have a mind and will and instincts and the ability to learn and grow. They are mortal.

Humans have a fleshly, mortal body with a mind, along with a soul, and a spirit. You stated that "flesh gives birth to flesh" and

"spirit gives birth to spirit", most likely referencing 1 Corinthians 15 in which it says that all flesh is not the same (vs. 39)

speaking of human flesh, animal, bird, and fish. And Paul also says that there are celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies. Humans

have terrestrial bodies made of matter (dust), angels have celestial bodies, made of spiritual substance (we don't know about

that) and Christ's resurrected body is another type of body, totally unique from all others, but like what humans will have in the

resurrection (without the divinity).Our terrestrial bodies will be changed to be like His resurrected celestial human body,

composed of incorruptible, immortal substance. (Jesus had flesh and bones when He appeared to Thomas). So, in this chapter

Paul is contrasting the natural Adamic body we all possess first to the Christlike celestial/spiritual body that Jesus possesses

after He died and was resurrected. I don't think that this chapter speaks to your idea that we are either fleshly or spirt, not

both.

In this earthly life, as with Adam, we have a natural body, a soul, and spirit. Adam's personhood was (soul, spirit, and body)

were created good, according to the plan and purpose of God's perfect will.

One Eighty,

Part 3

Next, I will speak about "good" and "perfect" in relation to God and to creation.

You have said along the lines that to be good means to be perfect and complete without fault (in an ontological sense). And

you said that everything is either perfect of flawed.

God alone is completely perfect and flawless, without any need to improve or become more good and holy. He cannot do evil nor

conceive it in His Being. He is pure from all taint of corruption and eternally remains so. He does not change to become more or

less holy, ever. But God being this way ontologically does not necessitate that everything He creates is ontologically this way or

also or else they, too, would be God or a separate god. Christianity never affirms this about what He created.

You have said along the lines that for Adam and Eve to be sinless they would necessarily be eternally holy like God is. But I say

that God created Adam and Eve sinless, in a pure state that could change by their own volition. God had a purpose for creating

them this way and His purpose is truly perfect, holy, and eternal. I read what Elliux2 wrote about the definitions of "good" from the KJV dictionary and I will say that the 3rd definition that "good" means "complete and sufficiently perfect in its kind and having the physical qualities best adapted to its design and use..." best fits my view of how God created the universe to be. It is complete, nothing more needs to be added. Each part and object of creation is sufficiently perfect in its kind (rock, force, angel, human) and use (or purpose). All that God created is made of substance that does not possess any "spark of divinity" or essence of God in itself. Rocks, water, etc. are created as inanimate objects, without life. Angels, humans, animals are created as animate objects (alive) God does not "birth" His Spirit in any of His creation. He abides by His Spirin the souls and spirits he created in angels and humans who follow Him.

One Eighty,

Part 2

Some people believe that God is an energy or force or the basic unit of existence. This is often termed Monism. It is believed in

religions such as Hindu, Brahmanism, New Age, who call this energy "kai". This is pagan thinking and not embraced by

Christianity over the centuries.

Some People believe that God is All and All is God. Which means that all that exists is God. This is called Pantheism. This pagan

belief admits that a rock is God, the sky is God, spirits are God, people are God, an atom is God. It also admits that God is the

Universe and that He does not exist outside of it as being separate. Therefore, He is dependent on the universe and creation to

exist and changes as time transpires and creation goes through constant changes. (atoms are always moving within themselves,

so any movement in them is a series of changes, such as becoming positively of negatively charged.)

Pantheism also admits that God is a part of all things. Christianity has never supported this pantheistic view of God and

creation. Many Christians mix this view from New Age thinking into their Christian beliefs forming a syncretic viewpoint which is

aberrational.

Some people believe that God's divinity permeates every part of creation but still remains distinct. So, this means that God is

not the Universe and the Universe is not God, as pantheists believe. But since they believe that God is the Spirit of the Universe,

therefore a part of it, and permeates all parts of creation, but is still somehow distinct from it, this viewpoint means that God

is thus dependent on the Universe to exist. This belief is called Panentheism and is somewhat of an "halfway" compromise

between pantheism and the true Christian view of God. Like Monism and Pantheism, Panentheism is not a valid Christian view of

who and What God is. These three viewpoints, along with the view that God is just an impersonal "Force", are all pagan views of

God-Who and What He is.

Dear One-Eighty,

Inn your reply to me and to Richard you have brought up a multitude of concepts, so I am trying to decide how to respond.

I guess the best place to begin is, indeed, as you imply, with Who and What we believe God to be.

Aside from the things you mentioned that we agree on, I would like to address a few other things in this post.

I believe that there is only One God and that His essential Being/Self is not communicable, which means that He cannot part out

His essence to anyone else. He alone possesses this divine nature. He is absolutely unique as a Being. There is no one like Him

because there is and never has been, nor will there ever be any other divine beings "birthed" by Him, emanated from this

nature, nor created as an extension of this nature.

I believe that there is God- and then there is everything else that He created, whether

spiritual beings, corporeal beings, physical matter (organic and inorganic), inanimate things like forces, light, sound waves,

motion, space, and time. Therefore, I believe that God is completely separate from His creation and not mixed into it. This is

called the transcendence of God, often termed that He is wholly other than creation.

I believe that God is also imminent in creation by His omnipresence. In this sense He is everywhere present and in everything.

But in saying this I will clarify that thought God by His imminence, inhabits all of creation, I will say that He is not a part of

creation, mixing His Self with what He created ontologically, making creation part creation and part od's essence (or divine).

God is not One with His creation. He is One within His One Being three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But He is

not One with creation nor creatures in this sense. God is not One with a rock, water, a worm, angels, or people. Nothing within

creation has even a spark of divinity, because Divinity belongs solely to God, Who is eternally self-existent, holy, perfect.

[Comment Removed]

Hi GiGi,

I'm glad to hear from you, as always. For some reason, I couldn't reply on this site for a couple months. I was beginning to think it was due to something I wrote. But then for whatever reason, I could. Yet, I was able to read the comments. I respect you for your steadfastness, and your obvious love for God. I noticed your post a week or so ago, welcoming me back; it did not go unnoticed. Thank you for your kindness.

Ok, so we do agree on some things. God is One, eternally. It's part of the reason I frequently use the term God Is. From what I've read from you, I think we agree on the trinity. Also, I don't believe God was ever created, which, in my mind, is another meaning the term God Is, expresses. It would be helpful if we understood each others idea of what creation is, more specifically as it pertains to the Father and His creation of His children. Simply, I perceive creation as a sharing or extension of the Creator's ONE Self. So, it would follow, to understand Who and What the Creators Is, is to understand the identity of His creation. So is God a body? I'm fairly certain I read in a recent post of yours that God does not have blood, and I would agree. So He's not a body. Yet, we already know this, as scripture truly says that God is Spirit and His worshippers must worship Him in Spirit and Truth; not a body and Truth. And of course, we also read that flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit. So, I must inquire, which are we? Our reality cannot be both, as one denies the other, being an effect from an opposing cause other than Spirit. The truth of one thing always makes the falsity of its opposite perfectly clear. Thus, the truth of Spirit always makes the falsity of the body perfectly clear.

to be continued

Hmm, One Eighty, interesting comments you have made here. I'll wait for the remainder of your thoughts and reply then.

A month or so back the Admin posted that in order to post one needs to have an account. So, perhaps that was the issue. But glad it got figured out for you and you can contribute once again. Thanks and God bless this evening. going to bed early. Trying to shake a nasty respiratory virus that is putting me down pretty much this week. I would appreciate your prayers.

part 2.

Hi Richard,

All fear/hate is ultimately reducible to the basic misperception we have the ability to usurp the power of God. To do the impossible would indeed be fearful. The belief the impossible has been accomplished, is. Thus, we are afraid of Love, unworthy of it, deserving our just eternal punishment. Is not God's Son perfect? Yes, or He cannot be God's Son. Likewise, God's creation, including you, is perfect, or you cannot be His creation (Son). Perfection IS unalterable!

Can anyone explain why God looked among all He created (animals and such) and obviously appears surprised He couldn't find a suitable mate/helper. Certainly, in His foreknowledge and omniscience He wouldn't be looking among something He intended not to create as a perfect mate, and then realize there was none. I'm sure there's a simple explanation.

Also, I think most agree the Garden was an idyllic place, and the two occupants were as they were created, in a sinless state. Yet, I must inquire, is an idyllic setting in an idyllic place idyllic, with the devil roaming about, tempting God's perfect creation to sin? And a tree smack in the center that would play a part in the horrible demise mankind would suffer.

Again, I enjoy your comments, always anticipating something informative and challenging.

Peace

God Is

I'll try a couple points here; although I can fairly well predict any answers will lead to more questions.

I will let you find the verse where Jesus was "amazed" at the faith of the Centurion. There are other verses where God is hot with anger as well as being called a "jealous" God. And perhaps that explains why only God can hate with a "perfect" hatred; for anyone else to try it would be sin.

Perhaps the idea in the verse that "no suitable" mate was found was more of an exercise for Adam to discover this truth about the animal Kingdom. In any event; man uniquely came from Adam's rib as stated in the scripture. Eve means this; as "woman" came out of "man". This brings a soul connection to men which the animal kingdom wouldn't possess; hence rules exist for us as to being equally yoked; nonetheless a marriage vow before God is still classified as a marriage. To have the Lord in the relationship is the only way that our spirit in that sense ( Romans 8:16) as to unity among men; the marriage however is still seen as one in soul. That's the best I can see it. It also explains why we can't just mess around before marriage either as that involves only a fleshly union; and I am convinced any soul connection as it were is in reality a demonic deception. d

It is also to remember that Lucifer also was created perfect in his ways ( Isaiah 14). Pride brought him down; as it did with man.

I hope you will consider the fact tht God only draws those the Father has given Him. ( John 6:44). Thus; our eternal fate was already decided among the Godhead before time began; He will not lose anyone of His sheep. I'm not sure a long Calvanist dissertation will be helpful here but I thought searching the scripture as with all things would.

Evil within the garden is an interesting point. We can look to Rev. 12:10 and see it appears until the midpoint of the Trib those in heaven are accused; they are certainly blasphemed from earth ( Rev. 13:6). So good can evil can be nearby.

Good Afternoon, One Eighty

You have made a good post here which prompts many thoughts in me. Hopefully Richard will respond back soon.

I just wanted to speak to your inquiry concerning if God is creating something wouldn't it be perfect like Himself (not your direct quote).

My understanding that in creation, God was not recreating Himself, replicating Himself, or in any way crating anything like Himself in all of creation. For one, He cannot do that, as Go's Being is One and always One. Always has been and always will be. for all of eternity God has existed without being created as a unity of three Persons in One Being-One Lord and God overall. His divine essence, being, and perfection belongs only to Himself and cannot be "made" or given to any other being.

Secondly, Though what God created was certainly good, we are not told that it is perfect, because only God is perfect. so, then the question is, can a perfect God create a good but not perfect thing. I would say yes, and I say so due to His purpose for creating: to redeem a people for Himself to be glorified with the Son for all eternity. So, to accomplish this end, God created angels and mankind with the ability to turn from Him in disobedience and rebellion, so that He can then redeem mankind to a better end than this earthly life and to prove, by, saving humans but not angels, that He is sovereign in His actions, decisions, and wisdom over all things, even evil and the devil and those fallen angels. He gets the last word on all things and in the end, the judgment of sin, the devil, the fallen angels, and unrepentant sinners is perfectly just and glorifying to Him.

Hi Richard,

I enjoyed reading your thought provoking post on the "knowledge of good and evil". The creation account is in some ways ambiguous to me, thus, in the search for truth, I must ask questions that perhaps are elementary or absurd to others. There's information in this account establishing much of the Creator's Mindset.

One primary challenge I have is regarding whether something (God) in a state of eternal holiness can or would create something unholy; and/or something holy that can change into an unholy creation. In the same manner, I highly doubt an unholy entity (Satan) could or would produce that which is holy; and/or something unholy that could become holy. Is it not logical that if anyone, or God, created something imperfect, we, and/or God, would be imperfect? Should not anything that comes from God be exactly like Him, where it concerns His characteristics; Who and What He is? In comparison, earthly parents pass to their children many of their traits, producing a likeness to their self. God is perfect and eternal; thus by DEFINITION, anything He creates would also have to be perfect and eternal. God is Truth, so whatever is true is eternal and cannot change or be changed. God is Spirit, and Spirit gives birth to Spirit; Spirit is unalterable because It is ALREADY perfect. But, the mind can elect what it chooses to serve, the only limit put on its choice being, it cannot serve two masters: Faith in Spirit AND the body, Love AND fear, Holiness AND sin, Life AND death, God and Satan. Opposites.

Who can usurp the authority (power) of God? I'm concerned for myself I may be minimizing God's omnipotence by believing there's anything that can-including sin. To me, sin would only prove what God created Holy could not prevail against it, nor remain Itself before the power of sin. Sin is perceived as mightier than God, before which God Himself must bow and offer His creation to Its conqueror, Satan. Many consider this humility.

to be continued

A brief point to this is that God uses Satan for His purposes (as stated in my recent posts). God has allowed this usurper to complete his purposes for the redemption of man ( Genesis 3) to the crucifixion and betrayal of Christ based on prophecies of Judas in Psalm 109; etc. God has to have an instrument to do these evil things as He himself cannot sin. Christ had to take on our sins as the innocent lamb after a sinless life of obedience. Thus; He CANNOT do otherwise; no other meethod than belief in the Son of God and no other work will atone for our sins; thus in creation there is no way we can "save ourselves."

ALL of these things bring glory to God; and He is praised forever. In eternity; of course we will begin to live as we were designed to in a sinless state learning evermore from God and enjoying the splendors of heaven.

Sin therefore for God's elect is never "stronger" as it were than God's mercy and forgiveness. There are simply two realities; one for those saved and one for the lost. It appears as the wheat and tares there is no difference as we all live in the world but are not OF it.

As always; I feel remiss if I don't make an extremely strong push here towards conveying jut how real the enemy is and his stranglehold over this world. But as with the way we approach God; the book of Jude makes it clear we dare not make a "railing accusation" ( Jude 1:9). We appeal to the Lord or we stand vulnerable to being squashed like a bug.

Understanding how sin; and evil men facilitate God's plans are beyond our understanding; nonetheless Pilate put up the INRI on the cross stating who Christ was (King of the Jews). The Lord has the last laugh (and as I stated before is the only one in destruction of the wicked to be able to do that without sinning).

Again probably this brings more questions. I hope you get some joy as 2023 comes in.

Agape; Rich P