Bible Discussion Thread

Jude. 5 "Now I want to remind you, although you are fully informed once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe"

does this statement mean that people who say they believe, experiencing Gods power in their life, can also be destroyed for unbelief?

Hi Uncelebrated. As you've read the whole Book of Jude, the emphasis is in v 4, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." This speaks of those who entered the Church & were teaching & leading people away from the Truths they received, even from the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jude gives further examples of those influenced by wickedness & being led away, as those among the angels who departed & of those of Sodom & Gomorrah who gave themselves over to all manner of wickedness (vv 6,7).

Israel, who received a wonderful liberation from Egyptian bondage, experienced the LORD's Hand upon them in their journeyings to the Promised Land, in spite of their complaints & frustrations. Though these were God's special people, receiving His Favor & Blessings, they were still unregenerate & living in the flesh. They needed the continual teaching & direction of Moses to be kept on the path of trust in God & perseverance, but even Moses despaired of them; as we also read the Apostle's Pauls account of their behavior in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. All who sinned against the LORD perished in the wilderness - never seeing the Promised Land.

So the warning in Jude (& 2 Corinthians), is to believers to not follow after those, even those in their midst or congregations, who are divisive & trying to pervert God's Word, leading believers away from the Truth. These people stand condemned by God & will suffer even as those who choose to follow their pernicious ways.

Yet, for the true believer, not the counterfeits, the Spirit within them will gently correct even chastise the erring ones that they might apprehend the Truth. If they continue to disobey, then the life will be removed so that Jesus' Name will no longer be shamed, even before unbelievers, that the spirit might be saved in that coming day ( 1 Corinthians 5:5).

Thank you for that, i agree also with that. when those test come and you come across a false teacher that misleads you, should rebuking or forgiving silently be the first call, as you try to honor the Lord our God.

it makes me angry but then, i know i dont know it all either...

If we come up against false teachers, whether in the Church or elsewhere, I always first take the low road. I'm always up for a discussion, whoever they might be or whatever their persuasion. In the past, I've always entertained those who call themselves, Jehovah's Witnesses, engaging them in discussion as to what & why they believe. And any exchange of questions & Scriptures generally brings us to some sort of climax in the discussion. Ultimately, they aren't able to answer my questions which generally go deeper than their understanding allows and they excuse themselves.

So, a discussion would be my first attempt, so as to ensure we're understanding each other correctly, then maybe a gentle but firm presentation of what the Bible states, and if they violently corrupt God's Word, then a rebuke. But in the Church, if a questionable person or presentation is received, then one always can approach the pastor or elders for clarification. Yet, in no way should we lose our Christian demeanor & the Holy Spirit's control over our lives & conversation; it would be better to back off & leave the matter to others & praying for God's Light to shine on them.

Thank you for that, i had already started doing that subconciously. But i will definatly always now lean to the low road first, the discussion.

Galatians 3:7 certainly could be an answer to your question. It isn't merely the physical descendants of Abraham who are true children of God ( Romans 9:7-10). God has a remnant that He saves from both the Old and New Dispensations ( 1 Kings 19); Matthew 7:21).

Keep in mind also the difference between physically being preserved for a time and spiritual deliverance. These are both realities for the children of God in reverse order. In New Testament times as with Old many are called but few chosen ( Matt. 22:14). There are other verses showing how some experience some of the benefits of being in God's presence ( Hebrews 6:4) are still not ultimately saved. The parable of the sower and the seed illustrate this fact showing how the seed of truth must eventually not only take root but produce fruit. God enables that His Spirit reproduces good fruit in our lives as evidence that it is indwelling; not merely an external event. Hence all true believers are "sealed" until the Day of Redemption ( Ephesians 4:30).

In God's Providence there are some; such as the 1/3 that are preserved "going through the fire" ( Zechariah 13:9) who appear to make it physically through the Tribulation to repopulate the earth in the Millennium. That will include the handful of Gentiles that make it; although man is said in general to be "rarer than the gold of Ophir" who makes it through that way ( Isaiah 13:12).

Thus; these verses and a multitude of others makes it imperative that we "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith". ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). I personally believe that through God's sanctification process we all must get beyond our initial excitement over being a new believer as well as the trials of persecution AND temptations of the world to be "tested and approved" as true believers as part of the process of chastisement as God's adopted children. ( Romans 12:2; etc). The end of all those called and chosen in Him is glorification (read all of Romans 8:30).

Hope this helps.

Thank you it helped alot, but when you say get over that initial excitement , what about when christ says return to your first love, the zeal you had when you first believed- 'im paraphasing' Revelation 2:4

i have this question tho, when christ referes to how the rich struggle to enter the kingdom of heaven, or james 1.10. i used to think that was rich by a worthly material standard, but is the tearm rich also meant to the spiritually, rich christians who are rich in what they have, is that not a sense of riches, that one can fall in the same way too? ?

What my first statement means; or I should have said is that we ALL go through a phase more or less known as the "honeymoon" phase after being saved. The proof of true salvation; however next has us go through trials to test us to see if we are truly in the faith or not. There are some who as the parable points out weren't truly "rooted" in Christ hence it was the emotional high which was the cause of the initial excitement rather than joy as say a spiritual gift or proper response to the Holy Spirit's prompting.

I hadn't considered your second point. I'm not sure in the context if it is valid. In one sense the gifts and calling are irrovocable or "without repentance" ( Romans 11:29). Again; much as with the first point; people can get more caught up in the gifts than the giver of the gifts. We also have to consider people's natural intelligence; physical prowess or social standing as something more in line with the idea in James that the rich tend to be oppressors. We also need to realize that someone operating at one time in spiritual gifts doesn't mean their overall walk will be one of great reward if they allow bad fruit to be maintained or sin to gain a foothold. There are those who may not manifest things at least obviously but are committed to loving the Lord and obeying His commandments ( John 14:15). There is also the need for proper use (such as interpretation of tongues); and sharing different gifts with the Body of Christ. These include discernment and wisdom which may not be as dramatic as some others "signs and wonders" type which some believe exist today and some don't. Of course we need to make sure that the "light in us isn't darkness" ( Luke 11:35). Without discernment than anything goes and demons can mimic true gifts. Therefore we have to make sure that "doctrines of demons" don't maintain a foothold ( 1 Tim. 4:1).

Agape.