King James Bible
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The Holy Ghost is that which guides and directs our mortal bodies in this world. It can appear in what we can see and hear. It actually becomes our navigator , seeing things as they really are in the spiritual world, that we live in! We can find ourselves in circumstances we no little about, but the Holy Spirit knows and thereby uses us to convict others of sin. Our character is the effect of the Holy Ghost on others.
The holy Spirit however, is what we read in the scriptures and it is the fruit, the soil we grow by. The Holy spirit is what convicts us of sin, teaching us to obey all things which it has taught us. They are the same , but different . One complements the other. You cannot have one without the other. Jesus said when the comforter comes He will teach you ALL things. Those in Christ will see and teach even as Christ taught. It is His Spirit that is living in us! This is truely a miracle, as the Anti Christ is becoming more prevalent the Holy Ghost has become even more so. This spiritual warfare is real, guiding and teaching us all the way. Prayer is the most powerful tool we have. We must use it at any given instant. Pray without ceasing!
He that believeth on me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. This is the Holy Spirit we receive. For the Holy Ghost was not yet given! Because Jesus had net yet been glorified. John 7:38-39.
So you might see the difference is acute, We must rightly divide the word of truth. 2 timothy 2:5.
Being filled with the Spirit is a supernatural "gift through faith in the word".
The Holy Ghost however, appears as fire upon those who are present and obey His commandment's. Such are we, who even now are experiencing, (LIVING) His glorification (THE HOLY GHOST). Seeing Him as He is.
His and our glorification is seeing Him as He is, much more than just a Spirit , but communing with Him on our road to Emmaus! Can you see Him eating and drinking, this Great physician who has come to heal the sick!
This one they call a wine bibber, and glutton! Oh yes ,they have misjudged Him! Watch I say, Watch! His redemption draws nigh.
Repent and be Baptized
My brother, I do find it interesting that John 7:39 uses both spirit and ghost in the same verse. Whether these were John's exact words, or for some unknown reason the translators decided to put it in there that way, I do not know.
I can tell you that in the Greek text, the first word Spirit in John 7:39 is PNEUMATOS, and the second word Ghost is PNEUMA. Both Greek words translate to Spirit in English, so Holy Spirit would have been correct.
There is a different word used for Ghost in the Greek. That word is PHANTASMA and is where we get our English word phantom from.
There are 90 places in the King James NT where Holy Ghost is mentioned. However, if you look these verses up in the Greek text (Textus Receptus), every place that the KJV uses Holy Ghost, the Textus Receptus says Holy Spirit (HAGION PNEUMA). Why the translators decide to use Holy Ghost instead is something I am not sure of.
I also find it interesting that there are places in the KJV where the word spirit is used, but the Greek text uses the word ghost.
Matthew 14:26 is one place. When the disciples saw Jesus walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a (spirit); and they cried out for fear.
The word spirit in this verse is PHANTASMA for ghost. They thought He was a ghost. It is not the word for spirit (PNEUMA). It is the word for ghost.
So every place in the KJV New Testament where it says Holy Ghost, it can be correctly translated Holy Spirit.
I emphasize the KJV because if I'm not mistaken, most other English versions say Holy Spirit, not Holy Ghost, which would be considered correct according to the Greek.
I think that whether we choose to say Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, we are speaking of the same Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God.
pneuma = spirit
pneumatos = of the spirit
When false teaching is given, either the false unregenerate teacher is under control of another spirit, or the believing teacher is convinced that the right position that he holds on a subject, must be what the Scripture teaches; whereas the opposite is true: what the Scripture teaches, must be what we ought to believe. In other words, his mind dictates his belief & therefore forces the Scriptures to fit his teaching. And those unlearned in the Word, can be easily convinced by such contorting of Scriptures, mixed with the teacher's oratory & emotive expressions and thus be led astray.
The Church during the apostolic days as even today, are warned of such dangers & to be alert & deal with such intrusions before they go viral & render God's people ignorant, ineffective, casting aside the Truths from God's Word. We've seen the proliferation of groups that have laid aside the teaching given within the Bible to bring out their own interpretations to fulfil their own purposes. And this they do to the destruction of their own souls & of others. But when believers begin studying & searching the Word for themselves, leaving the human intellect & imaginations aside, then Truth will begin to surface & release them from the errors they've received. Our beloved S. Spencer & Gigi have shared some important Truths lately around the question you raised here.
Living in this world has become difficult for us why? Because God's word is a medicine for our condition ,everyone knows how we hate to take the .edicine.
I would like to add that we continue to grow and share as we go.
A teacher shares what he has gleaned from scripture by the revelation of the Spirit.
Everyone that shares is not a teacher but plays a profitable role in ministry. I myself is no teacher but one who shares what I believe.
There's a difference in being taught the word of God, and the word of God teaching us.
There should be production taken place "fruitfulness displayed" by virtue of the truth. I believe this is why Jesus says "You shall know them by their fruit.
There should be a shaping taken place that displays a connection to the vine, so their draw should be more than just doctrine.
Thanks and God bless.
The church is his bride
If you can understand what this means, you will find yourself clothed in his garment as you wait with your lamp. This demands for no substitution while we wait. It is one kind of material
This material will be his choice , this the holy ghost will provide to those who are in tHe Spirit
HIS promise to return and findIng u waiting! This lamp is his word , HIS PROMISE. Watch , I say watch. Repent and be baptized
God bless you and all you do to help this community, by example and word.
God bless.
are the real spirits of truth words of life .etc...Jimbob if the bible the written word cd have atoned for the sins of the world then Jesus shed his blood in vain and the cross was just foolishness.
Its only the spirit as Jesus said that which is born of the spirit tis spirit is the real words of life the H.G a living being....A living being that has to be born in us...via his seed his words...The H.G. That Child of PROMISE.Our new birth is in the spiritual realm.
We refer to the H.G the spirit of truth as a him not an it...He is our 1st born our only son as Zech 12.10 says..When we are bornagain of his incorruptible seed.
And in 1st John 2:27 The Anointing which you have received of him is the H.G. will teach you all things..You need no man teach you
Under the New Covenant we have an internal pastor/teacher which is the H.G....God That Child of Promise....The Anointing
But Jimbob ISRAEL was sola scriptura...The bible only....But there in no liife in written words....Israel stoned every prophets that God sent them and rejected the Christ...Which of the prophets have not your fathers stoned Jesus asked....Written words cannot atone for the sins of
the world....Or change mans adamic nature....David comes to mind...But Jimbob you are right the comforter will teach us all things
But what folks don't understand is this comforter has to be born in us....Thats y Jesus is saying that which is born of the spirit is spirit which is the H.G. That Child of Promise..Thats y he cannot speak of himself he is just a spritual infant.our new Born.
..
not an it...Jesus words are living beings (Gods)...To whom Jesus word came His seeds his breath they were impregnated by his
seeds and they birth Spirits as God the H.G. is spiri
t
But I hear what you're saying. If indeed the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts from the Word, as He does in whatever other way that seems good to Him, then the Word we read must be true & faithful to the actual words & events that took place & recorded for us. Often I think, 'how wonderful it would be if every new born believer was strongly encouraged to learn Hebrew & Greek (at least at the elementary level), that we might have a stronger understanding of the Word'. Maybe some of our questions & disputes could easily be settled at that level. The KJV translators have done a remarkable work in translating from the original manuscripts, as many of them were skilled in these languages; but by using verbiage that was in vogue at that time, can at times be misunderstood or even misleading today, if the original language is unlearned.
A classic example is found in Psalm 82 where the mention of God & gods (in verses 1 & 6) are the same Hebrew word, Elohim. Yet, that word is not strictly confined to always mean the One True God, and can also refer to divine beings, other gods/goddesses, judges, & mighty rulers. But the Hebrew reader would understand this broad meaning, but will also know its specific meaning in the context of the verses. As we see in verse 1, that the One Holy God who "judges among the gods", immediately reprimands these 'gods' for judging unjustly & showing partiality. And again in verse 6, these same judges, given special appointment by God, will be dealt with greater harshness.
And yes , I would only read from the KJV, but have to admit that if a new believer or seeker of Truth finds he is unable to grasp that 17th Century English style of writing, then I would allow him, with caution, to read the Bible in modern English.
So what happened? What was once delivered & correct, came into other hands to translate into their respective languages, using whatever copies of writings/manuscripts that they deemed worthy (usually the oldest ones were preferred, which were not necessarily the best for accuracy). Is this then still God's Word (KJV, NIV, other English translations, plus the Bible translated into & available in other languages)?
Though the KJV is the more preferred (by some anyway) for its accuracy & reliability from the Textus Receptus MS, it is still known for some 'errors' however minor (copyist or printer), just as any other version. Does this make the KJV flawed, unreliable & equal to the other versions? No. I believe that the KJV is still superior to the others by its faithfulness to the original (reliable) texts & God has blessed this work of translation that has come to us. Can no other translation be used of God & be effective in soul-winning & Bible teaching? God can use His Word in spite of human weakness or even human wilfulness in translating it, to draw men to Him.
For this at least, we should be content that the Word can be read by so many in the World & the Holy Spirit is still working before people & in people, that takes the sinner or saint into those deeper Truths where translators may have fallen short. God will not miraculously remove all other versions of the Bible in existence, nor expect us to attempt to do so, but He can still use the Word that's in our hands to direct our hearts. The Lord knows our weaknesses & how men have treated His Word, but He promises to continue to use His Word, sending it out & accomplishing all that He wills ( Isaiah 55:11).
Thanks Jimbob, you've presented some interesting information, which I will begin with from your first page.
a. the question of preservation of God's Word. Is the Bible telling us (as in Psalm 12:6,7) that God's Word will remain untouched, unchanged, unadulterated forever? Or, are the Words of God, throughout the OT & NT, given as utterly pure & reliable from the Mouth of God to his servants the prophets, to deliver to God's people? And this Word given will abide forever, even to its fulfilment - nothing, not even one jot or tittle can be changed from what God has decreed & will perform.
Then we come to the recording of that Word, first by those who wrote & passed them onto Israel. We then get the Septuagint (the Hebrew OT translated into Greek for the benefit of the Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt). Other translations developed throughout the centuries. Can we confidently state that God would have protected His Word, first given to Israel, throughout those translations? We know for a fact that there are errors (minor & major) in all the translations we have available to us. You have listed a couple (which I'll come to later), & we can't forget that even in the KJV, queries can be raised, such Deuteronomy 8:9, "a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass." We know that brass cannot be dug out of the ground; copper is found in the earth, from which bronze is produced (a name given for a variety of copper alloys); as also for 'brass', a combination of copper & zinc. Why then did the KJV translators use 'brass', instead of 'copper' (Heb: 'nechosheth')? Were they thinking of the final product, but shouldn't they translate it as given?
Another: Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", where the Heb. 'hassa-mayim' is in the plural. Now it's interesting that in Genesis 2:1,4, the KJV uses the same Hebrew plural word as 'heavens' - but not in Genesis 1:1. Maybe small errors, but errors nonetheless. And there are many more. So how then do we classify the KJV as error-free, when even some differences are seen from the original? As earlier stated, I don't believe that the 'preservation of God's Word' extends altogether to translations, but the Word that was spoken & delivered which cannot be altered & that Word cannot disappear or be annulled even if man wilfully or ignorantly changes that Word. I don't think that the Spirit's enabling to the KJV translators, compels that accuracy to the point that we're discussing here; rather, the translators considered everything available, finding the best most reliable texts in the Textus Receptus, which weren't giving problems & conflicts as the other 'older' MS were giving, using their knowledge of languages & abilities to deal with transferring of words & ideas into the English language & continual checking & re-checking of their work - all this with the Spirit's help, to produce the best translation we can get in our language.
b. Psalm 10:5, "his ways are always grievous." Where the NIV & most other versions state, 'prosperous, or succeed'. I've spent much time over this one, & unfortunately haven't come to any clear conclusion. The Hebrew word used is 'chuwl, pr. khool', & this is variously translated as 'to twist, writhe in pain, to dance, to whirl': a mish-mash of definitions in my opinion. I guess a Hebrew reader might pick up on that one, which maybe a reason why most translations go for 'prosperous', whereas the KJV & Douay-Rheims, for 'grievous, filthy'.
Ecclesiastes 8:10. To this verse, the Hebrew is clear, that the KJV, NASB, & some others attest to. So, I believe the NIV is incorrect here.
Hi Jimbob & thanks for your comment. After going through it, I think we can focus on the Book of the Revelation as your comments appear to center on that.
You asked, "Ok which Bible does that book of Revelation have to be in?; referring to Revelation 22:7,18,19. Even as verse 10 states, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." So we know that Jesus is speaking of this particular prophecy that He gave to John, to which John faithfully recorded. Had he not done so, I feel sure that he would have been checked, reprimanded & also become the first recipient of the dire warnings given in verses 18 & 19.
So what John had recorded was then passed on, presumably as copies to the Churches. Now for us, does it become a matter of which Bible version is the exact representation of Jesus' Message to John, considering the many hands it has passed through & the great passage of time as well? One could say, 'it does matter for we must read it as originally given' (and as you believe, the KJV is that version). But really apart from what we have now in our hands, we cannot refer to anything that the translators received & studied, & certainly not the original writings. So, if we are to state, 'KJV & nothing else', we must be entirely certain that it faithfully represents the original; to say that the words or prophecies given at the beginning can only find its complete accuracy in the KJV & nothing else, lacks verifiable proof. Why I say this, is because the contents of the Bible never point to the KJV as the repository of Truth - only one's acquired belief that the KJV is without error.
I guess this part of the discussion (& thread) must soon come to an end dear Jimbob, simply because that "every Word that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God", and what we have & read in our Bibles today, are understood differently by us.
I understand & appreciate your strong belief & assertion (that's admirable, but in my mind, rather wishful): that since God's Word given is pure & the recorders of that Word did so accurately, then no other Bible can possibly fit that description of faithful transmission, except the King James Bible. And to restate my position, that I don't subscribe to that view, simply because we don't have such a Bible in existence that brings out God's Message without some differences (large or small). That type of transferring of a given message to other languages that have evolved over the centuries, simply cannot be done successfully. I even gave you a few examples of differences in Revelation chapter 22; differences in what the original Greek showed.
One quick example of a missionary involved in translation work amongst tribal folk in India: Isaiah 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." A straight forward work of translating this verse into another language, even with some grammar changes & sentence reconstruction. But the difficulty arose with these 'sheep'. These tribals had never seen sheep nor ever heard about such animals with wool, as they were far removed from civilization. So, Isaiah 53:6 took a new turn: 'All we like pigs have gone astray'. Oh, now they understood that & how their herd of swine (once wild, now domesticated) could easily wander away - which no doubt gave further license to speak about the filth of sin & obstinacy to obey the herder, even the LORD.
What should that missionary have done in such a situation? Forced the word 'sheep', which they had no inkling about, or change God's direct Word to something that they could understand & relate to?
To expect that God's Word as uttered by Him that is now exactly the same we have in the KJV, is really wishful thinking. The work of translation itself proves that this cannot be done, simply because a verbatim transference of certain words & ideas is unachievable (unless notes are added to help direct the reader to variations of meaning); and I'm not referring to the words or chunks of Scripture that might be missing in other versions (probably due to the many manuscripts the translators use). You can check with any translator who is engaged in this work - the difficulties are immense. The KJV translators did an extremely good job, but certainly not a perfect work - but we can be grateful for their perseverance & providing us a Bible we can love & trust.
eccl 8:10 "then i saw the wisked buried who had come and gone from the place of holiness, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done. this also is vanity."
that is word for word from my niv and my kjv says the same thing, word for word.
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