Bible Discussion Thread

Hebrew 10:36-39

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Let's never think of going back to our previous life. Let's keep walking on the narrow road at the end of which the crown of glory awaits for us.

Giannis,

Thank you for sharing this piece of scripture. I am so thankful that the writer stuck Verse 39 in there. If it were to end at Verse 38, one might conclude that a justified person, a righteous person, one who lives from out of faith as a source, could one day draw back unto perdition.

Pt 1

Hi Jesse

Let's g back to those verses in Hebrews 10:36-39. "36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul"

Firstly I have to say that a verse on its own is often a teaching without any need to refer to any other verses, but also, often a verse has to be interpreted in accordance to the text of which it is a part of.

So, verse 36. Why do we need to have patience to receive the promise AFTER we have done the will of God? Which is the promise that is implied? Salvation, of course. But why after? Here it is not implied after being born, because it says that we need patience. Patience is needed for us to do the will of God in our lives and after we do it, which means that we complete our lives, then we get the promise (if we keep on God's way till the very end). Paul also tries to encourage believers by saying that the Lord will not tarry, delay. The ancient church was always living with the expectation of an early second coming of Jesus (church historians say that as time went by and Jesus hadn't come back then that expectation faded away and the church started going the world's way)

Then in verse 38 Paul says that we live by faith, but if a man draws back ... Where from does they draw back if they never believed? The proper answer is from that faith. But let's leave for now verse 39 and go to preceding verses 26-30.

"26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses

Hello Giannis,

I was not looking for a response but thank you. You said that "a verse has to be interpreted in accordance to the text of which it is a part of."

I fully agree with that and that is why I said what I did about Verse 39. I used it in context with the four verses you shared.

Now as far as this word patience in Hebrews 10:36, I'm guessing that you already know that the word patience doesn't do that verse any justice.

The proper word is endurance, not patience. There is a difference if we take it from an English standpoint.

But why endurance? And why after we have done the will of God? And why would we need to endure after receiving the promise.

Endurance comes first. So how do we do the will of God? By remaining under our circumstances. Giannis, I believe you already know that the word used in Verse 36 is the word HUPOMENO and it doesn't mean patience. It means to endure or remain under. That's how we do the will of God, by remaining under our circumstances and trusting Him. That's endurance.

As far as Hebrews 10:26 is concerned, that verse has nothing to do with a saved person walking away from or losing salvation.

Now in Hebrews 10:29, where it says "wherewith he was sanctified," that word sanctified does not necessarily mean salvation. Yes, the word sanctified (HAGIOS) means to be set apart, and when we receive Christ, we are sanctified, or set apart for His purposes.

But if you are saying that sanctified means salvation, what do we do with 1 Corinthians 7:14, "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

Please let me ask you this. Do you know what would happen to a Jewish person back in Jesus' day if they would receive Jesus as their Messiah?

Hi Jesse

1. The word HUPOMENO (or HYPOMENO) does not mean to endure. You are right that it's etymology means to stay under, from hypo(under) + meno(stay), but in greek it is used for patience, not endurance. Greek is an ancient language and many words through the centuaries have aquired a slightly different meaning. Example. The verb ORTHOTOMO, it consists from ORTHO(right) + TOME(cut, section), so its initial meaning is to rightly cut or divide something but the greeks use it for rightly setting, believing, teaching... Another word that the ancient greeks used for patience is the word MAKROTHYMIA, (translated in KJV as longsuffering). Its etymology is from MAKRO(long, elongated) + THYMOS(in anc grk spiritual condition, spiritual mood, in mod grk anger) but actually has the meaning of patience or tolerance. Anyway for somebody to be able to endure under tough conditions they must have patience, so one implies the other.

2. Of course that verse has to do with preceding verses 16 onwards. That verse is the conclusion of what Paul was saying about those who although were saved, sometime in their lives either because they kind of loose their faith or step backwards due to tribulations, they leave God. Paul encourages believers to not stop walking God's way because if they don't finish their road the promise will not be given to them. This is what verse 36 clearly says.

3. About Hebr !0:29, " and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified... ". It clearly says that they have been sanctified by the Blood of the Covenant, so they are saved people. That case about the husband who is sanctified because of his wife's faith is something different, and we can talk about it some other time. Again the word HAGIOS means originally somebody who is set apart but greeks use it for "saint", also Paul in his epistles "to the saints (hagious) of the church of ...)

Finally I don't understand what you mean in your last question. Can you please make it clearer? GBU

Hello Giannis,

I agree. From what I've learned, it is a compound Greek word, HUPO meaning under, and MENO meaning to dwell, to remain or to abide. MENO is found in many places throughout the NT and denotes a permanency of something or someone dwelling or abiding. In the case of the believer who has been born of God's Spirit, His Spirit permanently abides in the life of the believer.

I've been doing some research on the word HUPOMENO. The verse in question is Hebrews 10:36. The KJV says "For ye have need of patience." When I look at other English translations, some use the word patience while others say "For ye have need of endurance."

This causes me to question my own understanding of the word. When I said that it meant endurance, this comes from what I remember being taught by a Greek Professor whose ministry I sat under for some years. What he taught was not modern Greek but Koine Greek. I know there are differences between the two.



I'm questioning why some translations use the word patience while others use endurance? The NAS Exhaustive Concordance defines it as a remaining behind, a patient enduring. It also lists endurance, patient enduring, perseverance, and steadfastness. Thayer's Greek Lexicon gives the definition as: steadfastness, constancy, endurance, a patient, steadfast waiting for, a patient enduring, sustaining. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines it as endurance, constancy enduring, patience, patient continuance. The Greek Interlinear Bible says endurance.



As of now, I am going to stand by what I said. But I am going to do some more homework as to whether it should only say patience, endurance, or if either would be correct.

To rephrase my question, when Jesus was here, He had a large following of Jewish/Hebrew people. Many of them left Judaism to follow Him. What would be the consequences for a Jewish person for following Jesus? I've read accounts which help me to better understand some of the things written in the book of Hebrews.

Hello Jesse.

Back to our conversation. You are right that the verb "hupomeno/omen, sing/plural" sometimes is written in the Bible having the meaning of "to endure or suffer or remain under tough conditions with patience, a patient endurance. Verses where that verb has that specific meaning are e.g. in Timothy 2:10, Timothy 2:12, but we can find the noun "hupomone" in verses like e.g. Luke 8:15, Rom 2:7, 5:3, 1 Thess 1:3, Hebr 10:36 etc where it has the meaning of patience. (If you wish I can give you all the verses in NT that contain that word). I think those two meanings are so closely related to one another so that sometimes it is not very obvious which meaning they actual have. One needs patience to endure/ to stay under tough conditions/tribulations. Otherwise what is the point of being patient if they enjoy themselves, nobody would say that they patiently have a nice time, would they? But in Hebrews 10:36 it has the meaning of patience. This is how I find it written in modern Greek Bibles.

About your question "What would be the consequences for a Jewish person for following Jesus?". I think they would be separated from the other Hebrews, not allowed to enter the synagoge, and suffer all kind of persecutions, even imprisonment and execution. We can read about that in Acts (Stephen) just before Paul was converted to Christianity. And we can read what Paul suffered by his own nation after he received Jesus as his Savior.

Thanks for your comment on Daniel's 70 weeks. GBU

Giannis,

I forgot to ask. Which modern Greek bibles do you use for reference? I would like to check them out to see how they compare with the Textus Receptus.

Thank you ahead of time!

Hi Jesse

About your question which grk Bible I use, I mainly use the Bible written by Neophytos Vamvas, an Orthodox bishop and dean of the Department of Philisophy of University of Athens, published in 1851. It is written in an old grk idiom which is close to Koine grk and most probably you will understand it. He uses the Received Text for NT and the Masoretic Text for OT. Here this Bible is the one that all born again christian churches use. On the other hand the Orthodox church formaly uses the so called Patriarchal (or Byzantine or majority) text for NT (it is the text they have been using since their foundation in the 4th centuary), it is very close to the R.T. Also they use the Septuagint for OT, including all the apocrypha which they consider as canonical.

So when I want to clarify some things I use some Bibles that are written in today's spoken grk. Below I am giving you a few titles.

1. The "New Testament" published by the Hellenic Bible Society. Authors N. Vellas, Ev. Antoniades, A. Alivizatos, G. Konidiaris - profesors of Theology of University of Athens and University of Thessaloniki, the two main institutions that offer studies in Theology here in Greece. (Patr. Text).

2. The "Holly Scripture" (in grk "Agia Graphe"), published also by the HBS., Authors N. Vellas (OT from the Masoretic) and P. Vasiliades, I. Galanes, G. Galitis, I. Karavidopoulos (NT from the Patriarchal) - also all of them profesors of Theology in Athens and Thessaloniki.

3. The "Holly Scripture" by S. Philos (it is Vamvas' Bible in mod. spoken grk)

Also many e-Bibles mainly from the Orthodox church.

Also interpretations, not direct translations, like:

NT. and O.T by I. Kolitsaras and NT by P. Trempelas also profesors. of University of Athens (Patr. Text and Septuagint).

And many more. Some of them are word by word and some are freely written for better understanding. I don't think Jesse that you will understand those but it a good chance for you to learn mod. grk. Good luck. GBU

Giannis,

You are awesome! Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I have not spent much time yet trying to learn modern Greek. Koine Greek was what I was taught. I was given a copy of the Textus Receptus in the Greek class I took. The Professor teaching the class handed a copy to everyone in the class (22 of us in the class). Someone spent a good bit buying these for the whole class. It wasn't the Professor who bought them. He said that someone in the class bought them but didn't want to be recognized. But we were all blessed with a copy. I have learned to read it, still not knowing every word, but as time goes by, my understanding increases little by little. I would like to spend some time learning modern Greek and I do hope that when that time comes, and Lord willing, if we are both still here, you might be able to help me out with questions I might have. You have always been gracious and kind that way, so I trust that would be okay?

I think we both agree that the Greek brings out so much more than what we get from our English bibles. Like Hebrew, English is a very general language where words can have multiple meanings. But Greek is probably the most exact language there is. It is very difficult to come up with multiple meanings as to what the text is saying.

I am going to take what you sent me and perhaps I may add some books to my library.

Again, I do thank you. God Bless!!!

Giannis,

Thank you so much for this. I do agree with what you are saying. And thank you for the offer to send all the verses with the word HUPOMONE. That is very kind of you. I think I might have those verses already. This was also a word we took in my Koine Greek class when we were doing word studies. That class ended, so it has been awhile since I've done individual word studies, so what you've sent me has helped refresh my memory. Again, thank you.

As for the consequences of a Jewish person receiving Jesus as their Messiah, what you said is true. Back in the time Jesus was here, for a Jewish person to follow Jesus as their Messiah, their family would disown them, they would lose their job, they wouldn't be allowed in the temple. I even read that their family would even hold a funeral for them because they considered you dead if you received Jesus as your Messiah. That's how serious they were about Judaism.

That's why I said in a previous post that knowing this helps me better understand some of the things I read in the book of Hebrews. For a Jewish person back then, they had a tough choice to make. Do I continue following Christ and receive Him as my Messiah, knowing what the cost will be, or do I go back into Judaism which was much easier.

Thanks again, and God Bless!

Hello Jesse.

Sorry I haven't replied yet, I haven't forgotten you. I need some time which I haven't so I will answer you some time during the weekend. GBU

Giannis,

Not a problem at all. I actually forgot that I had asked you a question. Please know that I never expect an immediate response. Plus, I know that I can always count on you to respond whether it be right away or not.

I do want to thank you ahead of time. Blessings to you my brother!

Hello Jesse

It's too late here so I will get back to you tomorrow. GBU