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I have a question?
Do you believe when you depart your body of flesh, you are at that moment in the presence of God?
Just trying to understand your beliefs.
God Bless YOU!
John 5:28
Is Jesus not speaking about His resurrection in this prophecy?
Do you not think you fit into Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy is he that part in the first resurrection?
God Bless You!
God bless you also. All is well.
I had to chuckle a bit when I read the first words of your comment; "At least you understand.....". Kind of sounds as if you think you are the authority and final say on all things. No harm done. Just thought you might want to be aware of it. I try to use the plural forms when commenting, as I did in my post to you, so as to not give the false impression that I'm including myself in accomplishing the task at arriving to some ultimate state of enlightenment, while excluding others. I haven't. And I would venture to say no one on this site has. I hope I'm misreading you. It just sounded that way. I realize at times I may unintentionally give that impression.
So ahead of time, I forgive MYSELF for the mistakes I may think I see in you and others. You do not need my forgiveness as I see only the Christ in you, just as the Holy Spirit does; the rest is just my own projections. Peace to us both. I agree with you; our sins have already been forgiven.
I agree with you also that maturing is a process. If this was not 100 % unambiguous to you and other readers in my comment to you, well, I don't know what else to say.
Peace and blessings,
GOD IS
If we assume that most people on here mean well and wish to speak about what they know to be true then we can be open to listening. If we do not agree with what someone says, we can respond back or just let it go. Being prayerful is key in discerning if and how to respond. This site is a learning place for us. We learn about the Scriptures and God who inspired them. We learn from and about others. We also learn for and about ourselves as we consider the views of others. I try not to read too much into what somewhat writes, but wish to take posts at face value and believe that the person is being upfront and honest about what they think. I try to speak to what someone has stated and not to what I think is someone's motives or evaluate someone's spiritual walk. I pray for those I interact with on here and especially for the prayer requests of others.
I probably do sound authoritative, Paul said several times it was HIS gospel; isn't the gospel, Christ's gospel, was Paul being arrogant, or had he been taught by the spirit what the kingdom is ----Christ in you ---
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the KINGDOM of GOD has COME unto you.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days COMES, and judgement (like the judgement of Solomon) was given to the saints of the most high; and the time came that the saints POSSESSED the KINGDOM.
Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall HATE the whore, and shall make her desolate, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Revelation 17:17 For God has put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to AGREE, and give their (the saints) kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God be fulfilled,
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
I will humble myself, and hopefully not appear so arrogant and authoritative.
God Bless you!
In addition to what you are correctly stating; everyone has a tendency to stand guard over their ideas because we want to protect our thought systems as they are, and learning something different means change. In out current state of mind, we can only perceive, which is open to degrees beyond calculation. God is Knowledge and it is ONLY Him Who knows. Knowledge is all ONE and has no separate parts; no degrees, levels, variations, and no conflict whatsoever. When we KNOW, we obviously will quit debating and asking questions. All will arrive to that time when we know. When that time arrives, time will be over and eternity will be reality. Until then though, we need to persevere towards perceiving from sick perception towards perceiving correctly as we open our mind to what the Holy Spirit is teaching. If we are not continuously learning and adjusting our system of thought, we only prolong time, and time is not a concept in the Kingdom. I will not fear changing my mind about changing my mind. Thus I will continue to grow.
Peace,
GOD IS
Good to hear from you again.
I believe that God is simple, meaning he is not a composite of many things indicating that He has many part that together make up the whole of Him, like us. But I do not think that He is Knowledge, as you stated. knowledge is something other than God in His essence. The ability to know all there is, whether reality or all possibilities, what are the thoughts, words and deeds of all and each human for all time (what has been thought, said, or done whether it has already occurred or what will be thought, said, or done in the future for all time). He knows all the events of history and time from beginning to end, not being dependent upon them actually happening in time to know them.
We can describe God by His known attributes and by attributes that He doesn't possess. But that is from mankind's viewpoint and ability to comprehend Him. His essence is one complete, infinite, perfect, unchanging, holy Being. From our viewpoint, His essence is many faceted, but in Himself, He cannot be divided into parts such as attributes or other dimensions of His Being. He is One unified Whole Being, simple in essence, but so profound that mankind nor angels can truly know ALL of Him.
But I think it is an error to think that God is only one attribute such as love, or only something that exists outside of Himself, such as knowledge of the universe or history. He is not only knowledge, or the universe, of history. These all exist or happen outside of His essence. But His ability to know all things is part of His essence.
Sometimes we say things that seem reasonable but they may be subtly off the mark of what is true. Perhaps that is what it is when one says that God is only Knowledge or the Universe, etc.
At least you understand that repenting has to do with our coming to truth, not continually asking God to forgive our sins: they are ALREADY FORGIVEN, you will continue to grow and come to maturity, so the SEED can be harvested.
This is a process, just as wheat has to grow before it can be harvested.
If you don't mature, your just as chaff, and blown from the threshing floor.
God Bless YOU!
( Ezekiel 13:18-24) God was wroth that false prophets denied his word of destruction and were preaching safety from death by flying away alive. They preached comfort instead of truth. They preached a "Fly away doctrine".
Subsequently the word Rapture is not written in any Bible that I know of anywhere.
Probably in an attempt to apply a more anglicized word to describe it (rather than 'harpazo'), the word 'Rapture' was used in more recent times, from the Latin, 'rapio'. If someone takes offense to using 'rapture', since the word is not found in the Bible, my suggestion has always been, 'then don't use it'. What's more important, is that we understand why this 'snatching away' was mentioned in the Bible & why it is used of believers in Paul's discourse.
Thanks Jimbob for sharing what you did, and yes, I do believe in a pre-trib Rapture. I would ascertain from your comments that you too believe that there will be a 'catching away', a rapture if you will, but you find it taking place after the (Great) Tribulation ( Matthew 24:21) from the verses you cited in the same chapter.
If I had only this discourse in Matthew to go on, then I could well agree with you, as it clearly shows the sequence of events in answer to the disciples questions (with an emphasis on the tribulation the Jews would go through when Rome ransacked Jerusalem in 70 AD). The matters that indicate to me that the rapture & the second coming of Jesus are two events, are found in the meaning of the 'Great Tribulation & the Mystery'.
The Great Tribulation does not only mean that Israel, & by extension the world, will suffer greatly ("as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be"), but the reason for it is because of the great Judgement of God against sinful men at the Day of the Lord. Just as what happened to the world in Noah's day, & to Sodom & Gomorrah, so God's Anger will also be poured out at His appointed time. And yet, His people 'are not appointed to His Wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ'; Paul had just finished writing about the Rapture in the previous chapter ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 & wrote this in 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath) is judgement against unbelievers - the believers' sins were judged at the Cross & those in Christ are declared "not guilty", or 'justified'. Should we then be judged again? For what purpose?
The apostle revealed to the Corinthians a Mystery (that which was unknown to men before - now revealed: 1 Corinthians 15:51). As was the mystery in Romans 11:25 (that Israel's blindness in part was for the fullness of the Gentiles salvation); in Ephesians 1:9,10 (God's Will that He would bring together to be one, all who are in Christ); Ephesians 5:32 (as husband & wife are one flesh, so is the union of Christ & His Church); Colossians 1:26,27; & many other examples. All indicating that what was revealed to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was unknown before, which Paul was revealing now: that the believer's death was not a requirement for the resurrection (which was once believed), but that those who are alive at Jesus' Coming will also rise with the dead, to be with Him.
The one in Christ won't face the Wrath of God that was meant for those who spurned His Love shown in Christ, and that both those who have died in Christ & are alive in Him will together be taken away, it seems clear that the Rapture must happen before the Great Tribulation. But if one believes that the Great Tribulation is not God's Anger poured out, then it could well be believed that Christians living at that time will suffer (or, in some way protected) from the devastation that is to take place. If I take the Scriptures together, I cannot subscribe to a post-tribulation Rapture.
Thanks again Jimbob for your thoughts on this. Tribulation or Great Tribulation? I see a difference. The apostles, the early Church & believers today are not exempt from tribulation; it will come to us as declared ( Matthew 13:21; John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 8:35; 2 Corinthians 7:4; etc): not just physical hardships, but certainly the exercises by the enemy against us, even to testings of faith & martyrdom. We are not insulated from any of these, nor should we expect to be, but what of the Tribulation sent by God our Father? You shared 1 Thessalonians 3:4, "For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know." You understand that Paul was referring to the Great Tribulation, of God's Wrath. I don't see that at all in his discourse, rather, that Paul was describing his own afflictions (vv 3,7 & coupled with 1 Thessalonians 2:2,9,14). I see a clear difference between the two expressions of Tribulation: that which comes to all of us, & that which is only directed to haters of God & His Christ.
What then are we not appointed to? To our daily tribulations, even to suffering or dying for Christ, or to God's Wrath to unbelievers? I note that you agree to this: that believers won't face the outpouring of God's Wrath against a Christ-rejecting World, by your understanding that this outpouring will happen only after the believers are caught away (i.e. post-tribulation). The contention then is: is God's Wrath the same as the Great Tribulation? I believe the Great Tribulation is still to come - we haven't in the least begun to experience anything of it now. When it starts, we know that the time of the end is at hand and believers will be caught away before the world begins to feel the Mighty Hand of God against them. (cont'd).
I think this is where our difference lies: does the Great Tribulation equate to God's Wrath, or does God's Wrath only appear after a 'tribulation' the world experiences, which includes believers also? How we perceive this, determines a pre or post-trib position.
As far as the 'mystery'. I agree with what you've written, that the mystery shows the bodily re-constitution of the resurrected & the raptured, but I also see that Paul is refuting the belief that 'one has to first experience death to receive the resurrection': a belief that was held by the Pharisees, that the dead would rise, but no disclosure was given of the fate of the living at that time. Paul shared what was unknown, that both the dead & living would arise to meet their Lord & a physical re-constitution of both would be necessary (obviously, the Pharisees would never accede to this belief). And I also agree with you, that the 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 on its own does not reflect a pre-trib rapture position - rather, that Paul's thoughts were directed to the resurrection. Yet in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, Paul continues, writing about the Day of the Lord, with its associated destructions. If we then take verse 4 on its own ("But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief"), then it appears that the believers must needs get ready to face that awful day, as they now have received this prior warning. Rather, I believe that Paul was stating that the believers were not in the dark about this time that it should have to face it, rather they were God's children ('of the light, of ready mind & expectant hope'): 'For God has not appointed (them) to His Wrath, but to their salvation (from God's Wrath)'. If then the Great Tribulation & God's Wrath are synonymous, as I believe, then believers won't experience the Wrath meant for the world, but will be taken away before the world agonizes under it.
Thanks again Jimbob. If I might take our discussion to anothe level. One great fact of the Church's Rapture, is not only its imminency but its suddenness. In the NT, the command was for readiness ( Matthew 25:13 (10 virgins); Luke 12:40; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13), for Christ's coming. The early Church was expecting it & proclaiming it, but the scoffers, then & now have proved themselves right ( 2 Peter 3:3,4) - Jesus hadn't come, nor has history ever recorded such a 'parousia' ever taking place. But the Church still continues to wait, knowing that God's Word is True & that God's Time is never man's concept of time ( 2 Peter 3:8). Therefore the question: why should we await for the any-moment return of Jesus, if that return could be quite easily plotted by the 'falling away', the appearance of the anti-Christ, even the beginning of the Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath which you believe only includes those catastrophic events of Matthew 24:29; Revelation chapter 16)?
Apart from the discussion we've been having on the difference between the Tribulation & the Great Tribulation, I share this other aspect of the suddenness of Jesus' Return, of which no man knoweth the day nor the hour. If I concede to a post-trib Rapture, then I would have to cross the hurdle of perpetual preparedness. It seems much more likely that death would first overtake me rather than the coming of Jesus for His own, if I go by the biblical events revealing the course of events leading to Jesus' Coming. True, all this will certainly catch the unbelieving world by surprise & suffering for them under God's Hand is certain, but if believers are to be here during anti-Christ's rule & suffer under him (for say three & half years), where then is the suddenness or imminency of Jesus' Return, for which the early Church was told to be watchful for? Jimbob, if you also believe in the imminent return of Jesus as I do, then His Coming must be any time before any of those events, or else, there's no imminency or preparedness, maybe just a waiting & counting down of days till our sufferings are over. I think if the early Church were so instructed & so expecting, then we should be also & not lose heart & say 'the Lord delays His Coming to an expected time'.
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
Yet, we haven't discussed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, which I had given in my last post (I only shared my own understanding). And this of course ties in with the Rapture; this too is important to consider when looking at the timing & character of the Great Tribulation/God's Wrath. So, maybe I'll keep this short & get your thoughts on that Scripture, if you so wish (no compulsion at all): What was deeply engaging those believers' minds that prompted Paul to pen these words of assurance? Who or what is the one who "letteth will let" ('katecho', restrains, holds back)? When this being or entity is "taken out of the way", what are the implications of that removal upon the Church & the World?
These are the questions I have to ask myself when looking at such verses, particularly in the light of eschatology, where we are compelled to form an opinion or a belief with often very little information given (at least information so succinct for us, that the early Church receiving such, would have grabbed the opportunity to request the author to expand his teaching). Obviously we can't do that & I sense that the early Church did know far more than is revealed to us now, but God has permitted that we receive what is given & hold onto it. Hence, our variations in understanding to what should otherwise be a straightforward doctrine.
I agree with you Jimbob, on 2 Thessalonians 2:8, that those verses refer to the Anti-Christ. As well as your Revelation 19:19,20 reference to the beast (= antichrist) & his connection to the false prophet.
Then you referenced Revelation 11:7 to this beast (the anti-Christ). But Revelation chapter 11 speaks of the two witnesses prophesying on Earth for 1,260 days (or 3.5 years), which is the one half of the Great Tribulation period (whether the first or second half?). These witnesses are killed after their work is done by the beast that comes out of the bottomless pit (v7). Can this beast be the anti-Christ, who would actually still be on Earth during that time of the witnesses, or reference to the different manifestations of the 'beast'. And out of interest, when checking on this 'beast' classification, we find that it can also apply to the anti-Christ spirit (as in Revelation 13:1), i.e. that spirit that is found in the nations representing the "ten horns". But the dragon (Satan) gave power to the beast (13:4). Without expanding this passage, we can see that this beast isn't the anti-Christ, because verses 11 to 18 show this second beast arising from the Earth (not the sea), clearly doing the work of THE anti-Christ.
Then further into Revelation chapter 11: as you wrote, the two witnesses are taken into heaven (though there's no mention of anyone else going with them). And as we know, the Rapture events surround the Lord's physical appearing in the clouds & the raptured go to be with Him in the clouds; not so with the Witnesses - Jesus is not present - they ascend into Heaven. As well, if the two witnesses satisfy the verse, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", then I feel that would be in the wrong time frame. According to Revelation 11:7, the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit & is the one who kills the witnesses.
I have to apologize Jimbob for what I wrote previously concerning the Revelation 13:1 beast. I should have been more attentive; I was swayed by verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Without checking against Scripture, my immediate thought was the head that was healed represented the anti-Christ: which of course, it doesn't - likely, Rome, his originating city.
Now giving this passage my full attention, my understanding is that the last great empire to fall was the Roman Empire (476 AD & was certainly in power at the time of this prophetical writing). And those horns & crowns represent those nations confederate with the beast. And I also agree with your comments on verses 4 to 6. And then we come to that verse that causes conflict: verse 7, "And it was given unto him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints". Clearly, there are believers present during anti-Christ's reign. Are these all believers that are living to this point in time not yet raptured, or, believers who have come to Christ (whether from reading the Bible, by the ministry of the two witnesses, or even the work of 144,000 of Israel's tribes)? Again, we hit a fork in the road, as the post-tribulationist will understand this as all believers are still on Earth - with the Rapture not having taken place yet. But will the Rapture, any rapture, take place for these martyred saints? I don't believe there is one, just a resurrection of the dead to join Jesus in His Millennial reign on Earth.
Hi Jimbob & thank you for sharing this. I'll leave the matter of who the 'saints' are; I brought this up earlier. But to Revelation 19:7-9: in the context of the whole chapter, I read those verses differently to you. There was great praise going on in Heaven, with the words, "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (v7)". Christ, the Lamb, was being made ready for His Wife (the Church) & the Voice from God's Throne told John to write, "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." Was this supper to take place forthwith, since the Bride was there & ready & waiting?
If I had to analyse it, I would say, No. The Bride was not altogether there - there were yet more to join them so that the marriage supper could take place. The announcement at verse 9, was the imminency of this marriage supper: the bride was already there (raptured saints?), but not the full number (tribulation saints?). Then in Revelation 19:11-21, we see the Lamb, not enjoying this time with His Bride, the Church, but going out to war against the beast, false prophet & those having the beast's mark on them - all being killed & consigned to the Lake of Fire. Then John was given the vision, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years ( Revelation 20:4). Here is the 'first resurrection' of those living in the tribulation days, who rejected the beast & his mark, & were beheaded for their love for Jesus & together with the saints from Heaven, share in that great Supper time.
Mark 13:20 'elect', I believe applies to the elect among Israel, in its context of the chapter. But of course, after the Gospel is brought to the Gentiles, we too join the elect of God ( Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2), but Jesus directed His message to the Jews of His day.
Revelation 13:7,8: are these saints the ones living at the time of revelation of the beast on Earth, or are they the 'new believers' who have turned to Christ, rejecting the beast? And the Lamb's Book of Life, does it record all believers now & into the future, or only adds to the record those who are being saved by the Blood of the Lamb? Moot questions for sure.
Revelation 20:4-6: "This is the first resurrection". The Rapture of the Church (i.e. which includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ) & the resurrection of the tribulation saints are not the same. The Rapture is not a part of the First Resurrection (some have included them together, referring to it as two phases of the one). The Rapture is the catching away of believers to be with the Lord in Glory. The First Resurrection is for the tribulation saints who have died for Christ & will reign with Him through the Millennium. The scenarios are different hence cannot be the same. So, should not the Rapture then be called the First Resurrection? Apparently not, as that is the secret coming of Jesus to take away His Church from the Wrath to come. Blessings.
Appreciate your comments Jimbob & I'll take it from the top.
Revelation 19:7-9. The way I understand the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Church, is that we have already been joined to Him; Ephesians 5:31,32, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Paul believed that the Church was already joined to Christ - they were one - we were already married. So there's no second marriage planned - only His bride gathered together & being made ready for that great celebration, otherwise called, the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb". Where "the marriage of the Lamb is come" as seen in verse 7, it is in celebration, with the Supper, of the union that had already taken place when the Holy Spirit was given to every believer, joining him/her to Christ. And as His bride was arrayed in fine linen for the celebration, clearly depicts the pure, holy & acceptable state of Christ's spouse, the Church.
Yes, His Army, which includes His bride & probably other angels, do join Him in His descent to Earth. So the question (which you have answered), 'if the bride is with Christ, then where has the Marriage Supper taken place, in Heaven or on Earth?' Your understanding, is in Heaven, "The wedding has taken place and the Bride is now called the "wife". My sense is that the Supper is still to take place; why? The Bride was made ready & arrayed in 'marriage' outfits, Jesus & the Bride (& others) mount their stallions, & join Him in war; and of course, victory is theirs. What comes after this? Revelation 20:1-5 tell us that after Satan is bound in the pit, John saw thrones & those who died under the anti-Christ's pogrom. These saints arose from their graves & presumably Jesus & His army of saints joined them. This is the First Resurrection of Believers. (this paragraph continue onto Page 2.)
It is my sense that the Church number was now completed & the Marriage Supper could take place (of course, this is not specifically mentioned). What happened at the Rapture, was an 'harpazo' (snatching away) of the dead, made alive & to be forever with the Lord; nothing akin to a resurrection where saints remain on the Earth, restored & reigning with Christ. So, the question, 'cannot the Rapture of the dead be seen as a resurrection?' In one sense yes, as it clearly is a raising from a state of death, but then we see Matthew 27:50-53; Acts 9:36-43; possibly Acts 20:7-12; (& not to mention the several other personal resurrections in the OT). I see the Rapture of the Church as a specific resurrection to remove believers from the impending Great Tribulation & not part of the General Resurrection (First Resurrection). And 'the shout & the trump'? Maybe, the call to march from Heaven & the command for the saints to rise up to the clouds; something the heavenly host hear & the personal call to those in Christ & none else can hear?
Revelation 1:7: Jesus comes to defeat the enemy armies & the world will behold this spectacular sight. I don't think one can confidently relate the clouds in this verse with the clouds in 1 Thessalonians. Maybe just cloudy days, or specially created clouds for that purpose. Who knows. As well "with clouds" & "in clouds" might be significant, but I wouldn't pursue that. I'm sorry Jimbob that you find so many holes in the "pre-trib theory".
I will admit that most things written of the future can be open to many opinions, simply because we don't get a nice laid out timeline of events. It's a matter of how we put Scriptures together. If wrong in my understanding, so be it - it's just how the Scriptures fall into place for me. Now some believe that the post-trib position involves believers who survive the tribulation & also have to face that time of God's Wrath poured out as well, which neither you nor I believe. That's a plus for us!