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You stated.
The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (WHEN) we gather together unto Him) except there comes a falling away first, (There will be a falling away first, it is happening now.
I agree it is happening now, but vs)1 I have "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (AND) by our gathering together unto him,
Perhaps this weekend?
One thing else Jim, I have not followed this thread and don't know what you guys has covered but I peep in and encourage from time to time.
I want to let you know firsthand when I peeped in without reading much of the content, I attempted to encourage Brother Chris on a passage that he shared light on and the endurance he has showed on this thread along with other present threads.
My praise towards his efforts was NOT to demean you by any way. He was out of line.
God bless you and I hope to chat this weekend.
No! It's my apologies Brother, I may have taken that wrong. I haven't been fully engage when reading or posting here over the last few weeks. And that's normally right at bed time around 8pm eastern.
I'm hoping to be able to share my thoughts after I settle down tonight or by this weekend.
God bless you Brother.
If we could continue Jimbob & thanks again for the questions. I see you have your time fully occupied with other responses, so any delay in replying here is understood.
I've never heard that expression used: "the harvest of the church", though certainly, "the rapture of the Church". As mentioned, Rev 14:13 states, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them". I understand that, as pertaining to those who die under anti-Christ's rule (those who refuse his Mark, unlike those who accept it: Rev 14:9-11). "Henceforth", I believe means 'from this time forward'. Hence there must have been those who "died in the Lord" before this time, but those are not referred to here, because they are not here, only those who are commonly referred to as 'tribulation saints'. And so in verses 14-20, the command given to Jesus that the time had come to 'thrust in his sickle' (so the full reaping had to commence). But verses 18-20 speak of another angel who thrust in his sickle - and this was the gathering of those fit for God's Wrath (of destruction). Since parts of the revelation given to John are not necessarily in chronological order, we read that more plagues are to come to men in Revelation chapters 15 &16; maybe a description of the torment leading up to Jesus' & the angelic work of chapter 14:14-20.
When we read Revelation chapter 7, I take note of the whole chapter to keep it in context. When the angel (in verse 2) holding the seal appears (presumably the seventh Seal of Revelation 8:1), God's servants were sealed; & these were numbered at 144,000 of the tribes of Israel (you may as some others, understand this great crowd differently). So these form that great multitude (v9), with the other "nations, kindreds, peoples & tongues", to have survived the anti-Christ pogrom (since they "came out of great tribulation"). This paragraph continued on Page 2.
How then does the Holy Spirit (His Presence & Work) fit into this scenario? These 144K were not sealed previously (7:3) but now were sealed by the angel. The Holy Spirit is not evident here - all that is taking place, with the survivors who learned to cleave to the Lord & His Word during the Great Tribulation, have done so without the aid of the Holy Spirit. One could correlate this time to the OT days before the Holy Spirit was sent out by Jesus to be with & in His disciples & His Church. There were many in the OT/pre-Cross eras that truly believed in God & then in His Christ, but their faith & devotion would not be made complete (or, ratified) without the Perfect Sacrifice being offered for them. Then, if the Holy Spirit was now removed for the sake of anti-Christ's revelation, then those 144K sealed of Israel plus the believing from the nations, will be looking backwards to the Cross for their salvation & not forward as the pre-Cross believers. And yes, the Holy Spirit was absent now as He was then, i.e. by His not indwelling the believer.
The location of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? As earlier discussed, I believe this is the SUPPER of celebration & not the MARRIAGE; the marriage had already taken place when sinner & Savior were united in One, by His Spirit. And I see this Supper occurring on Earth as understood from the Scriptures, but I wouldn't force my view, if it was believed to be in Heaven.
Thanks Jimbob. Briefly, referring to your points in these two pages.
a. Acts 2:17-20. If we note from verse 8, the peoples of surrounding nations heard these men speak in their languages, which they had not learned. Then Peter gave them his message: 'what you're hearing is God pouring out His Spirit on men, to which Joel spoke about"in the last days, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh". This was the beginning of the Last Days & it has been ever since Jesus left this Earth & sent out His promised Spirit. And "they shall prophesy" as well. But the culmination of these Last Days is what you read in verses 19 & 20. And yes, the Comforter was promised to abide with us (the blood-bought Church) forever. But what happens when the Church is no longer here - and that "forever" day has arrived?
b. Ephesians 1:13 & Revelation 7:3,4 are not the same sealing, by virtue of that act & what is imparted. In the former, it is clearly the Holy Spirit Who seals the believer "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory (v14)". He marks His Own, He is the "earnest of our inheritance" (Gk. arrabon = an advance part-payment guaranteeing our security), "until the redemption of the purchased possession" (the Holy Spirit remains in us & secures the believer until the redemptive work at the Cross is fully realized, i.e. Christ indeed fully paid the ransom for our redemption - but completed redemption is only realized until the body is returned back to our Redeemer: Romans 8:22,23).
In the Revelation 7:3,4 account, we are not told what the seal is & how it's applied; at least it seems to be a forehead mark (the Lord's imprint, unlike the false Christ's signature). If one should read this mark to be the Holy Spirit on their foreheads or His indwelling that results in an outward marking, then I have no other comment. All I can glean is that the world is now devoid of the Spirit's Presence & Work.
Sorry, I can't take up the matter of 'sealing & the marriage supper' further, than what has already been presented. I can understand & appreciate your stance on them, and there is merit in what you write, but ultimately, it is what we understand the situation to be at the time that the Restrainer is taken away. Who He is & what are the resulting effects of His removal/departure can determine how we understand the other parts of this eschatological period.
Thank you for this information on the "last days." I agree with you that " Acts 2:17,18 is very applicable to the 'last days'."
There are two what are called "platform phrases" on which this message is built on. In Verse 17, it says "And it shall come to pass." In the Greek text it says "And it will be." And in Verse 21, it says "And it shall come to pass," and it's literally "And it will be!" Those would be the two platform verses!
So Verse 17 says and it will be in the last days. Now in Joel's prophecy ( Joel 2:28, 29), it just says afterward. Peter changed it to last days. What he is saying is that in Joel's prophecy, when he said after the judgments here, there will be another judgment day.
He meant now. So my understanding is that the theological or biblical definition of the "last days" begins here in Acts Chapter 2. From Acts Chapter 2 on, we've been in the last days for some 2,000 years.
In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit. Twice now, he's going to say this. I'm going to pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And then he says even on my servants and on my handmaidens, slaves, both male and female, I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: That is, speak the word of God!
Thanks again and God Bless!
Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.
Thank you GiGi. No offence at all taken dear Sister - there's been a lot of hair-splitting going on already to try to come to grips & understand our various beliefs on this subject.
The issue here is: when are the "Spirit and the church" removed? I think you have been following these comments, so probably no need to revisit my input & Scriptures in support. And of course, bro S. Spencer is engaged in discussion with you as well, providing much of my own thoughts on the matter.
I understand that your sense is that the Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, but possibly, Michael. Then going back to 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7: the Church at that time knew all about this Restrainer, but the Church today is in the dark. Since the "mystery of iniquity (or, of lawlessness)" was already evident & at work, the one restraining these 'acts of lawlessness' from appearing in the one who is personified as the epitome of rejection of all of God's Laws, would have to already been active throughout the ages. Can this then be Michael?
Would the archangel be so empowered to restrain the iniquities of the world in such a manner for such a long period so that it would not come to fruition in the person of that Wicked one (anti-Christ, coming in the authority & power of Satan)? This may be possible, but seems highly improbable, rather that God Himself has kept the world from sinking into the mire of full-blown depravity awaiting the day of His abandonment of the World to Satan, that His Judgement against the World, culminating at the final outpouring of His Wrath & battle, might be seen & justified.
I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.
So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.
Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.
I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.
So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).
With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".
I think we can agree that the World today is in very bad shape, every area of human morality & decency are being thrown out the window. The heart of man is truly wicked & the acts of governments by dishonoring God & rejecting His Laws are being increasingly
manifested.
If then the Restrainer is God Himself, by the Acts & Presence of His Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says, "until he be taken out of the way." That is, altogether being removed so that no more godly influence might bear upon this corrupt World. I don't view this as the Spirit's side-stepping His restraining work and yet maintaining His position within the Body of Christ. The fact of the Spirit even in the World assures us that God still has His Witness (of Himself) manifested in His people who radiate His Truth & Light. It must mean that with the Spirit gone & therefore also the Church, the magnitude of spiritual & moral darkness will totally overwhelm the World. As long the Church is in the World, God's Spirit must also be here; & this guarantees that the World will have the Light & Power of God shining against her - and this cannot be when the Church is gone.
I believe that there will be Christians in the world up until Jesus returns after the Tribulation to gather ALL believers from all time. Therefore, the church will continue on the earth until that return.
That said, I have read on several sites where the Greek for the phrase "Until he is taken out of the way" actually should read. "until he rises from the amidst" (or something close to that.
Perhaps you can also check this out to see if this is a correct Greek translation. I do not know Greek, so I am just going on what several sites have presented. If this is so, then this would completely change the meaning of who the "he" is, which would indicate that the he is actually the Anti-Christ.
How interesting is that. God is certainly restraining until the Anti-Christ arises in God's timing. But if the actual Greek word for word meaning is as I have stated then that is a game changer
I look forward to you or Giannis responding.
Thanks Gigi for sharing that, aligning with your other comments on this subject. And yes, eschatology is always a difficult subject to understand & analyse as it's still future & the narrative given in the OT, & by Jesus & the Apostles, are somewhat fragmented, pertaining to their pressing reason for speaking or writing. We are then left to put it all together & come up with a doctrine. Therefore, how we gather up these fragments of Scripture scattered all over the Bible & interpret them (hopefully not in a way to force them to fit our belief), will determine whether we dogmatically hold onto our position or leave the subject open so as to consider other possibilities or scriptural revelations. And I place myself in this latter position (as you can see in my staying the course with Jimbob), to learn what Scriptures are taken & used in support & what is done with those 'other' Scriptures. As I even mentioned once to him, if these 'other' portions were unavailable or too indistinct to make sense of, then I believe I too would strongly lean to the position that you both hold.
Anyway, it is what it is, so we move on, without holding any ill-feeling towards one another, and that rather we should reserve our dogmatism to the essentials as that concerning the Triune God & our great Salvation.
Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:7 though, it would be good if brothers Giannis or Jesse dealt with the Greek rendering of that verse, as they are way more qualified than I. But to pre-empt their input with my gleanings from the Greek Lexicon, it seems that the verse in Greek would read, 'for the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only (there is) the one restraining it at present, until out of the midst he might be (gone)'. So to the point you raised on the latter part of that verse: "actually should read until he rises from the midst (or something close to that)", aligns with what you've stated, & I believe David0920 also mentioned 'midst' (Gk. mesos). (cont'd).
Then the question, 'from whose midst?' You gave the option that the 'he who restrains' might refer to the anti-Christ. Yet, the next verse, states that only after the restrainer is removed, will "that Wicked be revealed". Clearly, "that Wicked" is the anti-Christ because "his coming is after the working of Satan with all power, etc., etc." (v9). So, the restrainer cannot be the anti-Christ, or else he would be the one restraining himself from appearing until he is taken out of the way.
Then when we read the phrase, "until out of the midst he might be (gone)", I believe that this Restrainer is taken out of the midst of God's people, and by His position in believers & His working through them as Christ's witnesses on Earth, "the mystery of lawlessness" is held from manifesting itself fully. When the Spirit is taken away so that the Great Tribulation might commence on Earth, the Church must also be taken, or else we have a Church without the Holy Spirit.
And that 'mystery of lawlessness' that has been working in the World throughout the ages, is finally able to materialize into the likeness of the Devil incarnate, where God's Laws & things Divine are totally abolished by him & his laws take their place. And for those unbelievers remaining on the Earth, God sends them "a strong delusion, that they should believe a (his) lie..that they all might be damned" (vv11,12). Thank you Gigi for your time given with this subject.
Using the Scriptures you've shared, I tend to understand it in this way:
a. Revelation chapter 12 is clearly referring to Satan & his dealings with Israel. I realize that some understand that the 'woman clothed with the sun' is the 'Church', but I don't share this view in light of the passage.
b. Revelation chapter 13. Unlike Satan (the dragon), a beast now arises from the sea. Because of the complex attributes of this beast, it can't represent a single person/entity. Rather, I interpret verse 1 as that of the satanic power that resided within the world's great powers (verse 1: seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns are explained in Revelation 17:8-14), and these exhibit the evil emanating from Satan, culminating in the anti-Christ.
c. Revelation 13:3: one of the beast's heads which was wounded to death & then healed, seems to be the last empire, of Rome, that is for now dead, but will one day revive in the person of the Anti-Christ. So my understanding that it isn't anti-Christ that is wounded & revived, but the Roman Empire, from which he arises. What form this empire takes one can only guess, with other nations in league with her.
d. Revelation 12:9: Satan is indeed "cast out into the earth with his angels", but Revelation 13:1 are the satanic empires of which anti-Christ will emerge ( Daniel 7:7,8 gives us view of this - particularly v8: "the little hornlike the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things").
e. Revelation 13:11: I attribute to the rising of the false prophet, exercising the power of the first beast, doing miracles, making & giving life to anti-Christ's image, killing the disobedient, & requiring the mark of anti-Christ upon all. Here is the unholy Trinity: Satan, the anti-Christ (the healed & restored head of the devilish empires that arose in history), & the false prophet.
I think we are all on here to learn, so it is unfair to speak of those who do not share one's viewpoint as being dogmatic and not also apply this term to oneself. I agree that eschatology concerns future events, so that none of us can truly know how the details will pan out. But we can know the overall order of events and the major events by studying Scripture, which I have done multiple times over the decades, and others like you and S. Spencer have done. We just do not agree on what is revealed in Scripture. I do not think either of us will persuade the other, so we do need to face this fact in a gracious manner towards one another. And I don't think there is anything wrong with being sure of one's eschatology beliefs as long as one has the mindset that the future history and the Holy Spirit may change one's thinking as we go forward.
As the Greek interpretation of the phrase "until he is taken out of the way" of 2 Thess. 2:7. You have given what I discovered as to what the Greek says for that with the exception of the addition of the word (gone). I did not find that word in the Greek translation. Rather the word used in the translation is meant to mean: to arise from the midst; to reveal or become manifest, etc. but there is no mention of the subject of the phrase being gone or taken away.
I can agree with your statement that the restrainer may not be the Anti-Christ.
I hope you have a good day, Chris. Thanks for your reply.
2 Thessalonians 2:7. I agree with you as well here, that the word 'gone' cannot be seen in this verse; or even 'taken out or removed'. But I think that in the Greek, that is inferred - will need more expertise from our other brethren who can appeal to the grammar as to whether we accept this understanding or refute it as being erroneous. Blessings sister.
Since GiGi was seeking help with the Greek specifically from you or Giannis, I chose to remain out of this discussion. I did see your mention of myself and brother Giannis (and by the way, thank you for trusting in my knowledge of the Greek). That is encouraging.
I was hoping that brother Giannis would have taken this one. He is far more advanced in the Greek than I am. However, I have not seen him on here recently, so I will take a shot at this and hopefully he can come on and add to what I am sharing, tell me I'm out in left field, or whatever he might want to add.
The King James says "until he be taken out of the way." Taken out of the way, removed, or gone could all mean the same thing. The Textus Receptus reads HEOS EK MESOU GENETAI. The translation is "Until out of the midst he be gone."
Now, if I may share my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
For the mystery of iniquity is already working: That's in Paul's day.
And right now, whether the person is alive or not, we have the one world system taking shape, and then he'll step right in to the situation.
Only he who now letteth will let, and that's the nice Old English language. It's the same word hinders, or restrains.
He says, and he who is restraining, will continue to restrain until it's time for the antichrist to be revealed, until he be taken, that is, this restrainer be taken out of the way.
There is much speculation as to what is the restraining force. I believe it's God.
Some people believe it's the Spirit of God in the church, that at the rapture when we're removed from the earth, that God's Spirit in the form of His people is gone.
That is true. But as we study through the Revelation, we find out that it's the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit himself. Whether it's in His people or not in His people, it is the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit will remove the hold, or restraining on the man of sin, and he will be revealed.
Blessings in Christ Jesus!
Now in your comment here, I notice that you too have read that verse as "Taken out of the way, removed, or gone could all mean the same thing. The Textus Receptus reads HEOS EK MESOU GENETAI. The translation is "Until out of the midst he be gone." So, there must be some suggestion in the Greek that it should be read as you & I are reading it, when the Greek doesn't actually show that the restrainer, after revealing the man of sin, goes anywhere or is removed. This difference in the Greek & the English translation can be confusing, & I think it is a vital part of both understanding the verse & supporting the belief that it is God's Spirit referred to & whether He just arises from the midst, or reveals, or manifests, or whether He is removed from the scene. And if He is removed or taken away, where does it leave Christ's Church?
And then the reverse could be true if the Greek is read another way: 'if the restrainer only reveals & arises from the midst, it shows that the Holy Spirit will still be here/remains here, therefore assuring that the Church continues to be present during anti-Christ's rule & the rapture can only happen much later/through much tribulation'.
[Comment Removed]
If I may quote from your comment to which I am replying:
"When the Spirit is taken away so that the Great Tribulation might commence on Earth, the Church must also be taken, or else we have a Church without the Holy Spirit."
While it was your intent I'm sure to teach otherwise, you have caught what I believe the Bible is actually teaching in your statement. I went through this in a prior comment but allow me to repeat. This is in part a very sad story.
We first must understand that when God speaks of the "church" or "His people", God can be referring to either the churches and congregations as the corporate representation of God's Kingdom made up of both Wheat (True Believers) and Tares (those that appear to be true believers but are not) ( Matt 13:24-30,36-43), or He may be talking about the "eternal church" that includes only True Believers... this depending on the context of the passage.
During the Church Age, God the Holy Spirit was present and active in the churches that were attempting to be reasonably faithful to the Bible as they were commanded to bring the Gospel both within the church and to the world. However at the Beginning of the Great Tribulation, which I believe is the period we are in today, God the Holly Spirit has been removed from the corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there ( 1 Pet 4:17). True Believers have been commanded to flee the churches ( Matt 24:16) , and God is only saving OUTSIDE the churches as the Gospel goes forth from individual Believers and ministries not associated with a church. And during this time of God's Final Harvest, also called the Latter Rain, God saving a "great multitude that no man can number" ( Rev 7:9).
Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Christ will return to perform the Resurrection, and the Rapture, and the final destruction of Satan and all of the unsaved.
I think this is the only solution that harmonizes these and all the verses.
I don't believe the reference to 'Church' in the Bible ever represents both the true & the false (or, the wheat & the tares, as you shared). The Church, which is Christ's Body, purchased with His Blood, & sealed with His Spirit, can never be fragmented to the point where some 'churches are true & others not'. I can only see in the Word that the Church is the Body of Christ (of the True), & any other representation of it, whether by their name or unbiblical beliefs or patterns, is simply our own categorization of them as 'church', & not the biblical meaning. Whenever the apostles address the Church in their epistles, it is to Christ's Body of believers, & within that Body, some may be careless in their lives, or even have false teachers arising from amongst them that need to be identified, corrected or rooted out. If a 'church' is not built upon Christ & His apostles' teachings, then this is a false church, or a nonentity, & consigned amongst the world of unbelievers.
So, when you write that "the Holy Spirit has been removed from corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there", I don't believe that the Spirit was ever there - there may be semblances of religiosity & adherence to the Word that can fool many, but how do they stand before God. And so 1 Peter 4:17 speaks about judgement of the members of His Body who don't remain true & not to the (true) Church which can never be removed.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
What is the "house of God" in this verse? Is it not a reference to the churches and congregations which have gone apostate.
The "house of God" during the church age are the churches and congregations that God had established as the corporate representation of His Kingdom in this world in which reside both wheat and tares.
Just as National Israel was the corporate representation of God's Kingdom from Abraham until the Cross which included both those saved and unsaved. And upon which God's judgment came, again and again, because of their unbelief.
How am I understanding this verse incorrectly?
David0920. No, I don't "believe that every individual in every Church is a true believer". What I shared on this, is that Christ's Church, that invisible organism if you will, comprises His children, blood-bought, Spirit-baptized, eternally secured. The Church you and I visibly see is a congregation of people that we believe loves the Lord & follows Him. Are all of them saved? Neither you nor I can know the hearts of people - but God does, for He knows all who are His. This then is the Church that I refer to. This is His Church - The House of God.
The Churches in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. I'm unsure what you're referring to by asking about them. Maybe, that they weren't perfect Christians as Jesus had some serious things to say to them. And so it was and is, no assembly of Christians, then & now, contains perfect people - the Church leaders are bound to follow the Word of God, stay true to Christ & build up God's people. If the Churches were deficient or in sin, they would be chastised, whether as a group or individuals & yes, their candlestick may be removed, their testimony & usefulness be nullified, unless they repent & return back onto the righteous path.
Of the Wheat & the Tares parable: we live in a world where both the children of the kingdom & the children of the wicked one dwell. At harvest-time, both the wheat & the tares among them will be reaped; the wheat shall be kept & the tares burned in eternal fire. This explanation of the parable (13:24-30) by Jesus only speaks about the end-time harvest; the scene is "of the world" (v38), not the Church. The tares in their early stages of growth resemble wheat (appearing as also righteous). But at harvest & the reaping, the difference is easily seen & the separation of the good & evil correctly assessed.
1 Peter 4:17: not to apostate congregations as you believe, but to God's Judgement on believers who are persuaded to pursue sin rather than righteousness. His Judgement by His Spirit can first come as a warning, an affliction, even death, so that the soul might be saved. If such a judgement on His Church is certain, what then is the certainty of judgement of those who reject Him & His Gospel?
Unlike you, I believe that the Church (of true believers) is still valid & functioning today. I see nothing in the Scriptures to ever indicate that they will or have ceased. All I can say, is that God's View of His Church is very different to some other's view of a deteriorated apostate people.
Agreed, those who participate in church assemblies are not all at the same place in their walk with the Lord. Some are truly of the faith. Some are mature believers. Others are quite newly reborn. Some are searching. Others on the verge of being saved. Others may be in an assembly all of their lives and appear to be saved but never are.
We should be prayerful of the assembly God has placed us in, praying for those we know there, those that are new to the fellowship, those we know are caught up in sinful ways, and for our pastor and leaders.
Only God truly knows the heart and future of each person who comes into a fellowship. We should be welcoming and genuinely care about those God brings into our sphere of friends. We also need to be available to make new friends and serve God by being a godly guide to those God adds to our sphere.
There will also be those who do not fellowship in a church setting, as David seems to be. And we should love them and extend fellowship to them, too, as we do on here.
The true church of God is, as you say, and invisible congregation that God knows and has elected. We should be thankful that He determines who will be called and elected, not us. We would fail so miserably in our present sinful condition despite being saved and indwelt.
I know many in church fellowships that are sincere believers who serve the Lord obediently in these fellowships. I know pastors that administer their office faithfully. So we cannot put everyone in churches nor every fellowship in the same basket of reprobates as David has done. Jesus said He will build His church. Paul and the apostles established church fellowships in the cities they preached according to the lead of the Holy Spirit. I believe that this is the primary way Jesus build his church.
There may be a time when the apostasy is so great that true believers may need to "come out" of the congregations. But I don't think this is necessarily the time of that.
.....Lover and friend has thou put far from me and mine aquaintence into darkness..... Psalms 88:18....Thats the Church....I am the light of the world but the night comes when noman can work....No real Church possible till the book is opened....As the last 2 k yrs have been a time of darkness...Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl....Isaiah.....But as God told Elijah he wd always have a remnant....Thus i believe there is always a church somewhere....Where 2 or three are gathered there am i in the midst..So i believe in my heart there will always be a shadow of a church somewheres....But the Kingdom will not come till the woman is in travail for the Children of PROMISE The H.G.....As God is gonna pour out of his spirit on all flesh which are his living words....The contents of that book of life. in the fathers right hand...But Micah 5 :3 has been fulfilled he gave them up for a season 2 k yrs ...Which is that great falling away....Notice that natural israel became a nation again after 2 k yrs....But the Israel of God has not appeared just yet....Simply b/c the woman has not given birth just yet....which are spirits an Israel of God....Plz note that the Kingdom has not come yet....and cannot come till the manchild the H.G. has been born in humanity....I will pour out of my Spirit on ALL FLESH....Thus the manchild the H.G. That NEW Covenant.
Micah 5:3...Therefore shall he give them up....( the great falling away)....But this great falling away is broken when the woman gives birth...She brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations....Which is the contents of the book in the fathers right hand...That book of life....Remember Jesus said unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....The whole world is in mourning simply b/c the New Covenant was cut off for 2 k yrs....Lover and friend has thou put far from me and mine aqaintence into darkness....I am the light of the world but the night comes when no man can work....The great falling away....The day of the lord cannot come till that great falling away....But that day is broken when the woman gives birth to the man child ....Rev.12 :10....NOW is come salvation and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ....Not until now when the woman gives birth....The seed of the sower is the living word yielding a baby Christ the Children of PROMISE...She brought forth a man child.GBU
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Does that mean that you believe every individual in every church is a true believer? It is difficult for me to understand how you could read the entire Bible and still believe that.
How do you understand what God is saying about the seven churches in Rev 2 and Rev 3?
How do you understand Jesus' explanation of the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13?
How do you understand Paul writing under the inspiration of God to the Romans, the Galatians, the Corinthians? Or some of the passages in Hebrews?
If I understand correctly what you're saying, quite frankly, I'm stunned.