Bible Discussion Thread Page 4

Hello GiGi,

I believe you are on the right track. Without getting into the scriptural proofs which I may do later, I firmly believe the Bible is teaching that....

Christ will return on the clouds of glory IMMEDIATLY after the Great Tribulation has ended and all of God's Elect (i.e. anyone from every nation throughout time that God plans to save) have been saved.

Christ will bring with him all who have been saved and have previously died physically and are currently living and reigning with Christ in heaven in their Resurrected Soul existence (there are a few that are there in their Resurrected spiritual bodies like Enoch, Moses, Elijah and a few that were resurrected when Christ was crucified). And their bodies will be resurrected a glorified spiritual body.

Those True Believers that are still living will be changed into their glorified spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they are Raptured, i.e. caught up to be with Christ in the air and every eye shall see them along with those that have returned with Christ.

This event will also usher in Judgment Day when the unsaved will experience God's Judgment and ultimately be eternally destroyed along with this sin cursed earth.

Christ will create New Heavens and a New Earth where all whom He has saved will live and reign with Him eternally as a complete personality in their glorified spiritual body and soul where sin will never again raise its ugly head.

So to summarize...The Resurrection, the Rapture and the beginning of Judgement Day are simultaneous events that will occur immediately after The Great Tribulation.

The idea of Christ returning to set up some kind of a physical kingdom on this sin cursed earth and a separate future salvation plan for Jews and Gentiles is absolutely contrary to what the Bible teaches. And in my opinion the reason that we have such divergent understandings of these events is a failure to apply the principles that God has laid down as to how we must interpret the Bible.

David, oops, ran out of room...

The destruction of Jerusalem was the definitive action of God to show the Jews that, whether they like it or not, the Levitical sacrificial system was ended. Whether they accept Jesus or not, any animal sacrifice or offering according to the Levitical laws were not longer acceptable to God, since Jesus fulfilled all of these means of forgiveness of sins infinitely in the shedding of His blood and the giving of His sinless life for the sins of mankind.

The "specialness" of the Jews was also ended in that in Jesus both Jew and Gentile are chosen by God as His elect royal priesthood and princes with Jesus as our eternal High Priest. (as it says in Hebrews). It is true that the nation of Israel was chosen in OT times to be the means through which God brings forth the Messiah, but once Messiah came (Jesus) their special purpose was finished. We are all now equally elect of God.

I have always thought it strange that the Jews have been so sure of their "specialness" but do not seem to esteem the Israelites of the the other tribes as equally as "special". It is as if they have denounced their own brethren. There are millions of millions of Israelites scattered among the nations of the world along with millions of Jews, too. The Israelites of the other tribes most likely do not know their ancient heritage as they mixed their genes with the gene pool of all the surrounding nations through intermarriage.

But the Jews, who were in captivity for a much shorter amount of time, kept their gene pool more separate from the other nations and continued to practice the Judaism that came out of the Babylonian exile (which was very different from the religion and culture of the Israelites that entered the promised land with Joshua after being freed from Egypt, covenanting with YHWH on Mt. Sinai, and wandered in the desert for 40 years.

I do not believe as the Dispensationalists do concerning Israel and the church.

Dear David, I do agree with much of what you say but differ in these ways:

Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.

I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.

I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.

This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.

Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple

Thank you for responding GiGi.

The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.

Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.

I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.

Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.

Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.

More on this later, as I have run out of room here.

Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.

Page 2.

c. As I wrote previously on this subject, I won't push my belief on when the Marriage or Marriage Supper takes place. If the marriage is yet to take place, how do we understand 1 Corinthians 6:17? Is our joining to Christ merely a spiritual connection or have we become part of Christ's Body?

Paul in the previous verses 15 & 16, wrote about the body that is joined to an 'harlot' is actually unified with her. How can this possibly happen (amongst them), if they are also "joined to the Lord (becoming) one through the Spirit?" Our relationship to Jesus is not only secure but our union to Him is even closer than the union of husband & wife (if I can describe it as such). Our spiritual life, indeed our whole life has its first appeal to Jesus' Spirit, well before our physical connection to our spouse. What He does in our lives & hearts can never be duplicated by another - not even close.

Is this then our blessed marriage union to Jesus? But if it is to be argued that another (second) marriage (after that completed redemption has taken place) is to occur in Heaven (or Earth), then really, I wouldn't pursue that; I don't think that is a critical matter of teaching, especially in this subject we've been discussing, of the Rapture, the Great Tribulation & their sequence of occurrences. Blessings brother.

Chris thank you for your response. I got a lot to reply to but I'm going to start with your 2nd page. You said The Holy Spirit is not evident during the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. Ch.7, you said "all that is taking place with the survivors who learned to cleave to the Lord and His Word during Great Tribulation have done so without the aid of the Holy Spirit." We are told in Jn.14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that ((he may abide with you for ever)). the (Comforter is the Holy Spirit) and ((He will abide with us for ever)). We are told in Acts.2:17-20 (17) And it shall come to pass ((in the last days)), saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood and fire, and vapour of smoke: (God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and they shall prophesy. WHEN? The next verse tells us (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come. (Gods Spirit is poured out on all flesh just (before) the great and notable day of the Lord come). Eph.1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE ((SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT)) OF PROMISE. Rev.7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have (sealed) the servants of our God in their foreheads. These verses tell us the Holy Spirit will be with us for ever, and that God will pour out His Spirit upon ALL FLESH (before) that great and notable day of the Lord come. Also they were ((sealed)) with the Holy Spirit. Thank you Chris, I will finish with the marriage supper with p.2

Hello Jimbob,

I do agree that the Holy Spirit will always be with each and every believer, indwelling them and working in them. Jesus said that He will be with us always, and He does this through the indwelling Holy Spirit. He will be with every believer even unto the end of the age. I do not think He is removed because God is every where present and active in our world. He will continue to be active through the tribulation.

I do not believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit nor the church. Perhaps Michael is assigned by God to restrain Satan as the Scripture speak of Michael being the protector of God's people in Daniel and also one who contends with Satan in heaven before Satan is cast out of heaven and comes to earth in a rage (Revelations 12:9).

It seems, from the 2 Thessalonian passage, the church of Thessalonica knew whom was restraining Satan and about the coming of the lawless one. But we are not told what Paul had said to this church concerning this topic prior to writing this letter.

It seems from reading about Lucifer in the Isaiah passage that he was created with great beauty but we are not told that he was second in power next to God. But Michael seems to have been created with great power and is able to overcome Satan when there is a conflict, such as in Daniel and in Revelations and when he won over Satan for the body of Moses. So it makes sense that the restrainer is Michael as God appointed him to be the protector of His chosen people.

But the text does not identify the restrainer, so any attempts by us is truly speculation or assumption. Therefore we should be careful to not be closed to other ideas concerning this matter but eliminate possibilities by way of using the Scriptures to do so.

GiGi It does seem that the Holy Spirit would be present during great tribulation as Rev.ch.7:9,14 tells us a great multitude will be saved out of great tribulation. And v.17 tells us the Lamb shall feed them, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. This feeding will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb. But when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, Rev.15:8 tells us that no man is able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. This verse also says "And the temple was filled with smoke from the (glory) of God, and from his (power) Read Mt.24:30 Jesus comes in the clouds with (power) and great (glory) to gather together His elect. I see this verse also as meaning no one can be saved during the wrath of God until all 7 vials are poured out upon the earth. The Holy Spirit, nor any True Believers, will be present on the earth during the wrath of God being poured out. Jesus will come in the clouds for all True Believers "Immediately after the tribulation" Those Believers will be taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the marriage supper is taking place in heaven the wrath of God is being poured out on the disobedient ones left on the earth, who were left just to face the wrath of Almighty God because they denied His Son. Then after this Jesus does return ((to the earth)) riding a white horse, with all True Believers riding white horses with Him, this will end the wrath of God and start the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Thank you GiGi for your reply, You will be Blessed for all your Prayers for other people. God Bless You.

Page 3.

You're quite correct: there's no trumpet sound mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21. In Matthew 24:31, it is the 'episunago' (gathering, or assembling, together in one place) of the Elect. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, it is the 'harpazo' (the snatching away from one place to another place), of the Church. Different Greek words which require a different understanding & application, implying both a different type of 'removal' of believers. One, a gathering, the other, a snatching away. And this snatching away is a pre-emptive act before the appointed Great Tribulation of God: beginning in a modest limited way (at the beginning of the last seven years), but ending in the final outpouring of God's Wrath. And this is Revelation 19:11-21 (with no trumpet call), the descent of those prepared from Heaven for that final battle & eternal securing & suffering of the beast & his prophet. Thank you again Jimbob for the time, effort & patience you've given to this thread. Blessings.

Jimbob,

The 1000 year period in Rev 20:2-3 is not a literal 1000 years. It began at the cross when Satan was "bound" so that he "should deceive the nations no more" and ended at the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Satan was "loosed for a little season". The Great Tribulation is the period in which we are living today where God has abandoned the churches and congregation ( 1 Pet 4:17) and God is no longer saving there and where Satan is actually ruling. We are now in a period of the Great Tribulation called the Latter Rain where God is saving a "great multitude which no man can number" ( Rev 7:9) outside of the churches. Once all of God's elect have become saved, Christ will return on the clouds of glory to resurrect / Rapture all True Believers and complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual bodies, begin Judgment Day when all of the unsaved and this sin cursed earth will be eternally destroyed, and Christ will create New Heavens and a New Earth where all True Believers will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity. God has revealed many teachings during this day regarding the end times, the nature of God's Judgement and Salvation program that have always been in the Bible but sealed until the time of the end. Read Daniel.

I understand this is contrary to the understanding of many and may be disturbing, especially to those that are still in the churches. But it is what I believe the Bible is teaching regarding the end times in which we are living. Please do not believe me. Read and study the Bible.

David0920 I agree with you on one thing, we are living the End times now. Ill just go with what you said "I understand this is contrary to the understanding of many and may be disturbing" David we have to keep scripture in context to get the Truth. You are taking scripture completely out of context. Scripture says Satan will be bound 1000 years, so he will be bound 1000 years don't add to the Word unless its written in the Word. This happens after Jesus returns to the earth riding a white horse also, read it. I hope you see this in the way its intended, to be helpful for you. We will never stop learning, the Word of God Is Alive today. I will repeat your words David, "Please do not believe me. Read and study the Bible". (But keep it In context)!

Jimbob,

If you have been following my comments on Bible interpretation, you will understand why we may be arriving at different conclusions on some things.

We must keep in mind that Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. And that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual. That is the Bible is its own interpreter. Any conclusion we arrive at must harmonize with everything else the Bible is teaching on the subject.

Matthew 13:10-17

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 13:34,35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Hi Jimbob,

I have enjoyed your' and Chris' discussion and this is not to say I know anything and hope you don't mind. Just another understanding for study. I will only address one thing, being taken to heaven. I believe you and Chris agree on, just at different times.

I love this site and the people on it. The end times: we have been told to endure unto the end and for many of us living today that will be our death before Jesus returns, and how things unveil will not affect us, we will be asleep. What if we are still here when the end starts what are we looking for? Some things have not been revealed, so we must be ready to face anything by standing strong in our faith.

We must with an open mind study with prayer. Like the first thing Jesus said to His disciples on Mount Olive when they asked Him about the temple being destroyed. "Take heed that no man deceive you."

If we are still living when the end starts, what if it is different than what we are looking for? Are the last members of the Church more worthy to be spared than the first members of the Church? Millions of believers have been killed for their faith, by Jews, Romans, other nations, by the Roman Church, and if you read history, they continued the death penalty for what they considered heresy after the reformation, and today they are still being killed for their faith.

In 1 Thess. 4 where the understanding of the rapture of the Church and are taken to heaven. In 1 Thess. 4 the people were concerned the believers who had died will not be resurrected and be part of the kingdom because the ones living would prevent that. Paul's answer in 1 Thess. 4:15-18 was to comfort them that would not happen. It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Where in these verses, does it say after we meet Jesus in the air we go to heaven? No bible verse I have found, in the Old or New, says we go or are taken to heaven after the resurrection.

Where is the destination of the gathering?

God bless,

RLW

p.2 Ronald Whittemore Rev.19:7-9 (7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for ((the marriage of the Lamb is come)), and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be ((arrayed in fine linen, clean and white)): for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (while True Believers in the Son are at the marriage supper of the Lamb being feed by the Lamb, the wrath of God is being poured out on the non-believers of the Son which were left on the earth. When Jesus returns on a white horse He will end the wrath of God and begin His 1000 year Millennial reign on the earth. Rev.19:11-15 (11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (In verse 8 the wife is clothed in fine linen, clean and white, then in verse 14 the armies that come with Him are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. This is the church coming back with Jesus to start His 1000 year reign! Also at this return He (treadeth the winepress of the fiereness and wrath of Almighty God. The word (treadeth) is #3961; it means to trample, tread (down, under foot) This proves the wrath of God was being poured out on earth during the time of the marriage of the Lamb.

Hi Jimbob,

I feel I have intruded on you and Chris, forgive me if I have.

I will just touch on Matt. 24:40-41. I understand Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are twofold, parts for the disciples for instruction for what they would endure and things leading up to the destruction of the temple and also for who will be living at the end times. In context of the chapter, we see "the coming of the Son of man." three times in this chapter verses 27, 37, and 39.

Matt. 24:27 He will be seen coming as Rev. 1:7. In Matt. 24:29:31 after the tribulation the Son of man coming with power and great glory. Rev. 19:11-16, similar to Joel 2:11, Joel 3:13-17 Zechariah 14:1-9. My understanding this is about the Second Coming of Christ.

In Matt. 24:36 we do not know when and we must be ready, we do not know when our death will be, it could be now. Jesus second coming is after the tribulation of the beast, we must be ready to not be tempted and be strong in our faith to not take the mark to save this flesh. Luke covers Matt.24 40-41 and just before, he adds this. Matt. 16:25 Mk. 8:35

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. God has said He will keep us from this, Rev. 3:10, but for those people who know the truth and refuse to receive it, He will send a delusion, 2 Thes. 2:11-12

In Matt. 24:37-39 as the days of Noah so shall also be the coming of the Son of man, the ones taken away in Noah's time were wicked. Matt.24:40-41 Why would it be the opposite of Noah's time? It is like the wheat and the tares at the end the ones taken will be burned in the lake of fire and the righteous will be left. At Jesus's return, the ones taken before the end will be where the eagles are, Luke 17:37 Ezek. 39:17-20 Rev. 19:17-21 the battle of Armageddon.

This is my understanding you may disagree and that is ok. Those in the first resurrection reign with Jesus on earth and there are only two resurrections.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald Whittlemore you are no intruding at all. After reading your comment I'm still not sure what your belief on the return of Christ is. Do you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture Ronald?

Hi Jimbob,

Thanks for your reply, here is a short version that may explain.

I tried to keep it short, my understanding of scripture is there is not a pre-tribulation rapture, also if rapture means being taken to heaven pre, mid, or post-tribulation, scripture does not support that. Much of that is based on the 70th week in Daniel my understanding has been fulfilled.

In scripture, the gathering of the saint's destination will be in Israel not heaven, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Luke 21:24, the same place the saints will be when Satan is released Rev. 20:7-10 when the armies of Satan will be devoured with fire. Then the final judgment.

Jesus's second coming is to set up the kingdom and to reign on earth, Rev. 19:11-21. On that day His feet shall stand on the ground from where He left, Acts 1:9 Zech. 14:4.

When Jesus returns, every eye shall see Matt. 24:27 Rev. 1:7 With a great sound of a trumpet, Matt. 24:30-31, At the last trump, 1 Cor. 15:52, With the trump of God, 1 Thes. 4:16, The seventh angel sounded the last trump Rev. 11:15-19.

Then the wrath of God when Jesus returns, Rev. 6:15-17. And as we see in Revelation there are two resurrections, the first, all who are resurrected will reign with Jesus on earth, not heaven.

Hope this makes sense, I understand there are different understandings, but it is good to have a loving and respectful discussion.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald Whittemore Thanks for the reply. I'm not really sure of what you are saying about what you believe. I hope you don't mind answering a couple questions? (1st) question. Would you explain what you think 1.Thes.4:17 is saying? (2nd) question. When, and where does the marriage supper of the Lamb take place?

Hi Jimbob,

My understanding 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is the same event as Matt. 24:30-31 1 Cor. 15:52 and verses in Revelation (the second coming of Jesus). In Revelation John covers different aspects of the same events in different chapters not in order. Rev. 10:7 in the days of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God should be finished.

Rev. 11:15-19, the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord." This is the same event as we see in Rev. 19:11-16. All of these are the same event, the last trumpet sounds to announce His coming and the first resurrection who will reign with Jesus on earth, not carried to heaven.

When Jesus returns and the armies which were in heaven that followed, are angels, the saints were not in heaven. Matt. 25:31 Matt. 13:39 Mark 13:26-27. The resurrected chosen and faithful from around the world will meet Jesus in the air on the way down to Israel and Jerusalem.

Then we see the bowls of wrath in Rev. 16. In Rev. 19:17-18 the angel called the fowls to the supper of the great God. Rev. 19:19-21 The battle of Armageddon. Then the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire, Satan is chained in the bottomless pit, and those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for one thousand years.

The marriage of the Lamb, the marriage supper, the bride, and the bride of the Lamb is only mentioned in Revelation. Rev. 19:7 Rev. 21:2 Rev 21:9 Rev. 22:17. When? It will be after all is made new, and where? It will be on the new earth. Jesus said this at the Last Supper, Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and what the Spirit and bride said in Rev. 22:17.

I know my understanding may be different than yours and others, I could say more but this should show my understanding of this. I am thankful for this site and the brothers and sisters on it to be able to respectfully discuss the Bible.

I hope this answers your questions,

God bless,

RLW

Ronald Whittemore Thank you for your response. Hopefully this will help. Jn.3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeh not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The word (believeth) is #4100; it means to have faith in, to entrust (especially ones spiritual well-being to Christ) reliance upon Christ for salvation. Now (believeth not) is #544; it means to disbelieve, (willfully ad perversely) not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. 1.Thes.4:16-17 tell us "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Mt.24:40-41 (40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (The ones taken are the (believers in the Son) they have everlasting life! The ones left on the earth are the ones who (believeth not the Son) the wrath of God abideth on them (is poured out on them). Rev.7:9,13,14,17 (9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which (came out of great tribulation). And have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (17) For ((the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne SHALL FEED THEM)), and shall lead them unto living waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. see p.2

Jimbob, oops hit send instead of the key I intended,..

I always took those Scriptures as our Lord telling us about His second (and only) coming a the end of history. when read what Paul explains in 1Cor. 15 and 2 Thess. 2 also speaking of the return of Christ at the end of history (the Day of the Lord. In reading these Scriptures from my teens and up to now, I have thought this. I was brought up in a church that did not speak much about end times. Only saying that Jesus will come again and He will judge the living and the dead; resurrect all people; bring the believers to heaven for eternity. And, yes, this is an eschatological viewpoint, but not an indepth one compared to those who have ascribed to an amillennial, preterist, premillennial, or dispensational mindset. I did not even know that these categories existed for most of my life.

So, I can say that my engagement with the Scriptures mentioned were much more uninfluenced by preconceptions of any of the eschatological viewpoints. I would have never understood any of these Scriptures referring to a secret Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture event separate and before the visible second coming of Jesus. But that does not mean that my view is unwaveringly true. It just means that I was approaching Scripture asking the Holy Sprit to help me understand.

It has only been recently that I have inspected the various eschatological viewpoints. I cannot say at this time that I am 100% behind any of them in all of their teachings. But at least I know that my understanding of these Scriptures were not because I was taught any particular eschatological approach.

Even so, we all should be humble and willing to consider what others have to say on this topic since it has not happened yet. I appreciate this conversation between you and Chris. It has been respectful and I sense that each of you sincerely wished to explore this topic between yourselves and present one's own viewpoint as clearly as one is able to do.

GiGi Thank you for those kind words. Everyone should be respectful of others no matter what differences we have in how we interpret scripture. But there is only one Truth, the Word of God Is that Truth and the Holy Spirit has to leading us to find that Truth. Thats why its so important today to not be lead by our teachings from other men, to the point we think everything we think we know, or have been taught is the Truth. I would say I've learned more from studying the Bible in the last year than I did in the many years of my past studies. The Word of God Is Alive today!! The prophecies are being revealed and fulfilled like never before, which is proof we are living the Lastdays NOW. Stay strong in you Faith, God Bless you GiGi.

Jimbob,

I agree with you. The Scripture that pre-trib rapture proponents us to "prove" this theory are really the revelation of the full second (and only) coming of Jesus Christ to "harvest" the saints and to bring in the time of God's wrath upon the unrighteous.

Dispensationalists look to Scripture with a pre-conceived lens of the tenets of dispensationalism. When one interprets Scripture within a particular "ideology grid" then the Scripture cited seem to prove the preconceptions. That can happen to those of us who are not dispensationalist, too.

It is very difficult to not bring preconceptions to the Scriptures. it takes a prayerful heart and mind to humbly seek God's truth.

For me, for 65 years as a Christian, I have not been exposed to the various eschatology views that Christians hold. I have not studied them until very recently due to being exposed to them on this forum. so, I cannot say that I had a set view. But from the time I was old enough and mature enough to read the Bible with understanding, I have always taken Jesus words in matt. 24 & 25 and Luke 17 as

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d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).

e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:

1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).

2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).

3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).

A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.

Chris thank you again. I think the saints spoken of in Rev.13:7 are the church, the body of Christ. The word (saints) is #40 in Greek; it means sacred, pure, morally blameless or religious, consecrated, (most) holy. Now we look at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Rev.19:7-9 (7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and ((his wife)) hath made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for (the fine linen is the righteousness of saints). (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are ((called)) unto the marriage supper of the Lamb, And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. The word ((called)) is #2564; it means to "call" a loud, bid, call (forth) whose name was (called) (His wife hath made herself ready, so the bride in there). The bride, or the body of Christ, the church, the elect were (called) aloud. Eph.1:22-23 (22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church. (23) Which is his body the fulness of him that fitteth all in all. (These verses tell us the church is the body of Christ) The word (church) is #1577; it means a calling out. (So the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ are those in Rev.19:7-9, who were called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb) Now in Mk.13:20 An except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the (elect's) sake, whom he hath (chosen), he hath shortened the days. The word (elect's) is #1588; it means select, by implying favorite, chosen, elect, to select, make choice, choose (out) chosen. (The elect are Gods chosen ones. His favorite, His choice). The word (chosen) in this verse is #1586; it means to select, make choice, choose (out) These are all the same , those who are called out, are the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the elect. (The elect are gathered After the tribulation).

Hiya Jimbob love ya but i disagree a bit...Gods favorite is the seed of Jesus the H.G..Jesus cd not tell us the gift of God is the H.G. IF THE H.G was not his favorite his Chosen..That new Creature which is the H.G is the only thing that availeth any thing in Christ Jesus...Which is our new inner man the H.G.... As Jesus said that which is born of the spirt is spirit which is the H.G. that Child of Promise...Gods Elect....We the Church are the Elect lady the bride...But the H.G. is the Elect bridegroom....As John said he that has the bride is the bridegroom..

There is only 1 promise seed which is the H.G. the good seed ,the living word of Jesus...My words are spirit and life much greater then paper and ink the written word that O.C.

...The written word can be molested and has been molested by many Religions and bibles....But the living word cannot be molested as the living word is God himself... John 1..Its only the living word that Jesus refered to as the Promise seed...

And Jim the scripture cannot always interpret the Scripture..Remember Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you but by my father in Heaven...Which is the spirit...The deep things are hidden from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto the babes...That New Born in our lives the H.G.

If the scripture cd interpret the scripture the High Priest who knew the scripture wd not have instructed the ppl to cry crucify him..In so doing the whole of the levitical Priest hood wd be done away with...The curtain was rent from the top to the bottom....The deep things are hidden from the wise and prudent...They knew the scripture by heart but did not understand that a new covenant was on the horizon....And this N.C.was by his blood...Thus the book of life ( the blood ).... Jeremiah 31:31 I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah...A N.C...And this N.C. is a birthing covenant...We are gona have a baby Christ which is the H.G. the Child of Promise. The son of man.

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Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.

And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.

But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.

Chris I really do appreciate you responding, this has been a very fruitful conversation for me. It is good to get another view on things, it gets one thinking and more importantly reading and studying the Word of God. Thank you Chris! With your last comment you said, if I understood it correctly You don't think the beast in Rev.13:1 is the antichrist? I think it is, see what you think of this? The beast who kills the two witnesses in Rev.11:7, this verse tells us the beast ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. The word (bottomless)#12; it means depthless, i.e. (specifically) (infernal) abyss, deep (bottomless) pit, (by implying) the sea. ((by implying THE SEA) Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (out of the sea) having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. In v.2 the dragon gives him his power, and his seat and great authority. v.4 tells us the dragon gave him power again, and says they worshipped the dragon and they worshipped the beast. How would that be possible? v.5 Tells us the beast is given power to (continue) forty and two months, which as you know Chris is 3 1/2 years. v.6. He opens his mouth in blasphemy against God. v.7 He makes war against the saints, and to overcome them, (this will be the time of the mark of the beast, the great tribulation) and power was given him over ALL kindreds, and tongues and nations. (The one world leader who's main objective will be to kill Christians. v8. Tells us everybody on earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. Satan will possess the antichrist when he given him his power. The beast in Rev.13:11 that comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH, and has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon? Is the dragon, he heals the deadly wound the antichrist receives, and he does great wonders, he makes fire come down from heaven. Almost finished but out of space, see p.2 (he comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH)

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Though there is no mention of the anti-Christ in this chapter, it is understood that he has already been revealed & is raining his terror on any who disobey him (as in Revelation 13:4-8). But when God's Wrath is poured on Earth's inhabitants, the anti-Christ's days are also numbered ( Revelation 19:17-21).

And finally, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trump". I realize that it is commonly understood that the reference is to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation 15:20-19 & some others even connecting this phrase to the last of the trumpet blasts at the Jewish Feast of Trumpets (i.e. after all the trumpet blasts of various types/sounds are made, the final (LAST) long blast is sounded at the end). And yet, the 1 Corinthians 15:52 rendering in Greek, shows it as, 'the trumpet after which no other will sound'. It might then be that it isn't the seventh trumpet sound by the angel being referred to in Revelation 15, but it is at the final trumpet blast from the series of the other angelic blasts throughout that time of God's Wrath poured out. We might never come to a consensus on that one.

Anyway Jimbob, those are my thoughts: some in agreement with what you read in the Word, some not. There are several possibilities in all that we have presented & all these have value, but ultimately, it's where are understanding lies concerning the Church's departure to be with the Lord Jesus. Each person, holding their various Tribulation/Rapture positions, can certainly find Scriptures to support their belief; I wonder whether the Lord places great value on our exercises in studying the Word, but to leave the final interpretation & outcome to Him, He Who has all the right answers. Thank you again Jimbob.

Chris Thank you for your reply. Our discussions have brought a few things to light for me, as I've been studying this subject. I'm not sure about this I need to study it more, see what you think of it Chris? 2.Thess.2:1-8, I had to add verse #8 because that verse says "And THEN shall that ((Wicked be revealed)), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" That Wicked who is revealed is the antichrist, who is also called the (beast), and the son of perdition. The word (Wicked) is #459; it means lawless, not subject to the (Jewish law); by implying a Gentile. (The beast is a Gentile) Now who does the Lord destroy with the brightness of His coming? Rev,19:11-16 is the Lords return to the earth riding a white horse, v.19-20 Tell us (19) And I saw ((the beast)), and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And ((the beast)) was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. So that Wicked who is revealed after (2.Thes.2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.) is the beast! Now where do we see the beast in the book of Revelation that will connect us to these Lastdays prophecies? The two witnesses are killed by the beast in Rev.11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, ((the beast)) that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them; and shall overcome them, and kill them. (Could this be when that Wicked is revealed?) Rev.11:11-12 (11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. cont. p.2

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I understand your position with the 'tribulation' that believers must go through, even escaping the Wrath of God (the Great Tribulation) that comes upon the World. Yet, I see that the Great Tribulation does not begin after the tribulations by the anti-Christ, but at the time of the anti-Christ's appearing ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7). Paul writes to the believers, in reference to Christ's Coming & their gathering together to meet Him (the Rapture of the saints). They were greatly troubled (affrighted, alarmed) by the false teaching given even false letters purporting to be from Paul himself, that the Day of Christ (or, Day of the Lord) had already begun, & they had missed it or were left out. Paul corrects them on this. That Day won't come till there's a great defection & rebellion against God & the anti-Christ be revealed. But what prevents the revealing of the anti-Christ? ( 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7). The Thessalonians already knew who or what constrains this revelation, but we're not told specifically by name. The only clue is "HE who now letteth..", which in Greek is "the one". If this One is God's Spirit (by my understanding), then it must mean that those with His Spirit are included; and this means that not only will believers be removed from the Earth, but the rest of Earth's inhabitants will no longer have the working of the Spirit before them or in them.

If God removes His Spirit from ministering on the Earth, this not only qualifies the removal of those so indwelt by Him & for evil to be let loose without constraint, but that the Day of the Lord has begun & the beginning of God's Wrath: first by His abandonment of the unbelieving world, then by the outpouring of His Anger & Judgement over it. The Day of the Lord will come suddenly upon them, as a thief comes, but that will not overtake those who believe, simply because we have not been appointed to receive God's Wrath for the world, but to receive His Salvation (we'll be gone). 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9.

Jimbob,

I have a question for you if you don't mind?

If what you are saying is true, that "Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, the church after the tribulation," and you say the elect is the church, and if I remember correctly, you don't believe the word "tribes" is a Jewish term that refers to Jews, and I am assuming you are referring to Matthew 24:30 by this?

But my question is: why would the Church mourn? Wouldn't it make more sense that this is referring to the Jews, not the church?

That would make more sense to me. I can see why they (the Jews) would mourn. When they see Jesus coming in the clouds, it is then that they are going to realize who Jesus is. When they see Him coming in the clouds with the marks of His crucifixion, they are going to realize that they crucified their Messiah. That's why they will mourn.

Zechariah 12:20 says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced. So at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look at Jesus coming in the clouds, and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!"

If you are not referring to Matthew 24:30, then please accept my apology.

Jesse The tribes of the earth mourn, That would be every single person left on the earth because like you said not just the Jews will know at that time, Everybody left on the earth will face the wrath of God and at that time THEY KNOW IT., Rev.6:16-17 (16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17. For the great day of his wrath is come: and who shall be able to stand. Even those who pierced Him, they would be those who had done evil and will be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation. John.5:28-29 (28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Those who have done evil will be resurrected from the graves unto the resurrection of damnation, this would have to be the wrath of God because that wrath starts the same day of the Coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds. 1.Thes.4:16 Tell us For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Those dead in Christ who shall rise first will rise from the grave unto the resurrection of life. They will be taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb, their soul and spirit will reunite, while the wrath of God and the resurrection of damnation is being poured out on the earth. Good to hear from you Jesse.

Chris thank you for your reply. You said "One great fact of the Church's Rapture, is not only its imminency but its suddenness". All the verses you provided show more of being (watchful) and (ready) but I don't see that sudden return that could happen any minute that you seem to see in them. When Jesus comes in the clouds it will be sudden, but Mt.24:29-31 tell us its after the tribulation, not before. That time period will be shortened, so we still will not know the day or the hour. You also said "It seems much more likely that death would first overtake me rather than the coming of Jesus for his own" Read Revelation.20:4-6, those who reign with Christ for a 1000 years are those who did not accept the mark of the beast, (which will come during great tribulation) and they were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. Many verses tell us we must suffer, or be persecuted. Read Romans.8:16-18, Phil.1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. 2.Thessalonians.1:4-5, 2.Tim.2:11-12 (11. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him. (12. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us. 2.Tim.3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Read 1.Peter.2:18-21, 1.Pet.4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. Rev.2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 1 of the verse you listed was Titus.2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus (appears) in the clouds with power and great (glory) in Matthew.24:30, Immediately after the tribulation. Thanks again Chris.

Jimbob

In your comment to Chris on Matthew 24, you said God shortens this time, or no flesh can be SAVED, and your right, CAN ONE BE SAVED NOW, if so then that great tribulation has already taken place.

It took pace from the time Jesus, left the supper table and went into the garden, was delivered up, and crucified on the cross.

The seven vial of Revelation; the wrath of God was poured out on Christ at this time.

No on could enter the temple until the plagues were fulfilled.

Anyone can enter the temple NOW, because the time was cut short, all wrath was poured out on Christ, It's already complete and the prophecies fulfilled.

It's all right here, in Mosses and the Prophets, if you put the scriptures in the RIGHT ORDER, all the pieces have to fit in the right place to be able to see the PICTURE.

God Bless YOU!

Ruby Lea Read You say all prophecies are fulfilled? The book of Revelation was written around 60 or so years AFTER the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The book of Matthew was written close to 15 years after. They are prophecy for us today. Rev.1:1-3 (1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the (words of this prophecy), and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev.22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the (sayings of the prophecy of this book). (prophecy)#4394; it means prediction, (scriptural or other) prophecy, prophesying, an inspired speaker. ((The book of Revelation is 100% prophecy, (prediction) How could the wrath of God have been poured out on Jesus ((if the wrath of God is apart of the prophecy (prediction) that is the testimony of Jesus Christ for things to come in The Revelation of Jesus Christ?)) Thank you for your comment Ruby.

Jimbob:

For the time is at hand ---- that which is, and was, and shall be ----

You weren't born when Christ fulfilled all, but you are given the words as if it's taking place NOW, the same would be true for someone living 500 years ago, as well as 500 years from now.

The Old saint were given the gospel but had to wait for the resurrection, you weren't born when all these prophecies were written, and fulfilled; but, they are reveal to you NOW, as if it where happening NOW.

God bless YOU!

Jimbob;

Are the Prophecies in Revelation and the gospels any different than those in Mosses and the Prophets? Are, or they just a second witness?

There was no brick and mortar churches, no doctrines of those churches, until the apostles founded them.

How did the apostles and first men come to the truth of the KINGDOM OF GOD?

Luke 16:31 ....If they HEAR NOT Mosses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Acts 28:23 ....he (Paul) expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Mosses, and out of the Prophets, from morning till evening.

Galatians 1:17 Neither went I (Paul) up to Jerusalem to THEM which were apostles before me, but I went into Arabia (the wilderness) ......Where the Spirit taught him ......

Revelation 12:6 And the WOMAN (the bride of Christ, his church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, and there should feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The disciples were feed by Christ for one thousand two hundred and threescore days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years, you and I are still being feed by that 3 1/2 year ministry, except NOW, Christ is WITHIN US, his second coming; but, we are still in the wilderness being feed.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and a half (the great tribulation poured out on Christ) the Spirit of LIFE ( I am the Resurrection) from God entered into them ( those of OLD, the law and prophets, the old testament saints) --- Matthew 27:52-53 ---

Isaiah 26:19 ....with my dead body shall they arise .....

There are 2 deaths, 2 resurrections, 2 second comings and 2 judgements, one for the Firstfruits, feast of weeks, and one for the feast of the ingathering, AKA feast of tents, AKA feast of the tabernacles.

The woman, Christ bride, the church, rides the BEAST, and we are told TO COME OUT of here MY PEOPLE.

God Bless You!

Your post answered something I had been wondering about. Thank you.

U4YAH You are welcome. It's good to know my post was helpful to you in some way.