Bible Discussion Thread Page 5

Hello Jimbob,

Since you are asking for thoughts from anybody, I would like to share mine. This word generation in Matthew 24:34 has no association with years at all. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.

Some theologians have said that the word "generation" means 40 years. Today, people attach different numbers of years to this word generation. Some say 70, some say more. But it doesn't have anything to do with a number of years.

There have been books written by people that have said that generation meant a certain number of years and that when Israel became a nation in 1948, they figured 40 years from there that the rapture was going to happen in 1988.

Well, 1988 passed and it didn't happen. But someone wrote a book on it and made millions of dollars. And then when it didn't happen, they wrote another one as to when the next one would be.

But GENEA has nothing to do with years. It is a race or kind of people.



Basically, what Jesus is saying here, is this kind or race of people, (the Jews), shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. They are His elect. They are His protected people, His chosen people, and He will fulfill His promises to them.

I used to believe that the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 meant a certain number of years. But now I understand it differently. There is no way I can come to any other conclusion on this word GENEA.

This word has no association to a number of years. It means a race or kind of people, specifically the Jewish race.

If we choose to change the word GENEA to mean a number of years, and we use 1948 as the beginning of that number, then we can know for sure the year that Jesus will return. Jesus says no one knows, nor can we know. There Bible gives no clues for us to determine the year or time of His return.

One thing we can know is that the Jewish race (GENEA) will not pass until those things be fulfilled.

Thanks, Brother Jesse.

That's the way I have it in that verse also.

I believe it's used like that here in Genesis 6:9-10 also.

"These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

Also here in Genesis 36.

Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;

AND THIS GROUP IF PEOPLE GOES ON UNTIL YOU GET TO

Genesis 36:9 and it gives a list of those of Esau in mount Seir.

"And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:"

IT'S USED THAT WAY IN

GENESIS 37:1-2 ON JACOB'S GENEALOGY.

Sorry Jesse but that is not true. Mt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (generation) #1074; it means a generation, by implying an age (the ((period)) or the persons) age, generation, nation, ((time)). It means the period, and also time. Using this word in context is using it as a time period, the number of years in the Last generation that all things written will be fulfilled in. Hey thanks for your reply Jesse.

Jimbob,

When you look up the word GENEA, do you not see the word race in the definition. I read Greek and I know what the word means. So I do believe what I said is correct.

If you believe it is referring to years (70 or 80) as in your post, and you are saying that this generation began in 1948, and we already know that 70 years have already gone by. 80 years will be another 5 years from now. So do you believe Christ is coming back in 5 years?

Jesse I believe the Word of God Jesse. Jesus said in Mk.13:23 But take ye heed" behold, I have foretold you all things. Yes I do believe Jesus will return within the next 5 years. Mt.24:36 Jesus tells us But of that day and hour knoweth no man,. . He says that day or hour, We should know the season. Mt.16:3 Jesus said And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring, O ye hyprocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Jimbob,

I trust you when you say that you believe the word of God. I would never question another believer as to whether they believe the word of God based on what I might perceive as a misunderstanding, or questionable interpretation. Do you think it's possible for a believer to believe that word of God is true but yet interpret the word incorrectly? I believe so. I speak for myself when I say this, but I believe God's word is absolute truth, but I also realize that it is always possible that I can misunderstand and misinterpret.

However, we do have a different understanding of the word generation (GENEA) used in Matthew Chapter 24. It seems clear to me that Jesus is speaking to the Jews. I do not see anything that would indicate tome that Jesus is telling the Jews that a generation is referring to a certain number of years, and that they could use that number to figure out the timing of His return. In fact, if He was speaking about a number of years when He used the word generation, the Jews at that time would have understood it to be about 30 years, definitely not 70 or 80. If you research the life expectancy of people during that time, the time Jesus spoke those words, it would have been 30-35 years of age. So, if that is the case, and you are using 1948 as the beginning of "this generation," He should have returned somewhere around 1978. Many people throughout the ages have tried to predict when His return would be based on generation meaning a set number of years.

I still stand on the literal definition of the word GENEA, which refers to a race or kind of people. And just so you know, I do respect your view!

Jesse Thank you for your reply. No one has all the answers, so its good to have a back and forth on the way we interpret the Word of God. One thing you said that a lot of people agree with, but I do not, is that Mt.Ch.24 was written to the Jews. I don't see that. Jesus was asked by His disciples in v.3 ....what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus goes on to tell them all the things that will happen (before His return). These are things that every person on this earth will deal with, its not just for the Jews. Do you believe great tribulation will be just for the Jews? Mt.24:29-31, Is the Son of man coming in the clouds to gather together His elect. Many people think thats the same event as Jesus return riding a white horse, they say the elect are the Jews. it is not the same event, and these elect that are gathered together are not the Jews. They are the bride of Christ, the church. The Jews dont believe Jesus is the Son of God. v.40-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. This is a picture of what many call the rapture. Mt. Ch.24 is prophecy for the Lastdays, its written for everybody. Jesus is explaining exactly what will happen in the time just before His return. His return is in verses 29-31. As Jesus is speaking of that time just before His return then the word "generation" would mean a period of time. There are 3 periods of time in the Bible for a generation, 40 years, 70 years, and 120 years. If Mt.Ch.24 IS prophecy for us in these Lastdays which it is, then the 70 year generation period fits perfect. Look at the world today, read 2 Tim.3:1-4 it matches exactly how people are today and it even says "in the last days". You need to see Mt.24 as prophecy for us today Jesse or you are missing so much of the teaching of Jesus for the Lastdays. Jesus said in v. 36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man", but we should know the season as True Believers. I respect your view as well Jesse.

Jimbob,

(Part 2): If I may comment on a couple things you said, first about Matthew 24:29-31. You say that "Many people think that's the same event as Jesus' return riding a white horse, they say the elect are the Jews," and "It is not the same event, and these elect that are gathered together are not the Jews. They are the bride of Christ, the church."

If you are saying that the rapture of the church and Christ's second coming are two separate events, then I agree with you on that. As far as the word "elect," this is a special word brought over from the Old Testament as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. I agree that the church is the bride of Christ, but we are not the elect. The elect are the Jews. That's what they were called in the Old Testament and that's what they always will be, God's elect. I find no scripture reference in the New Testament that shows where the meaning of the word elect has been changed to mean someone other than the Jews?

You also said that "The Jews don't believe Jesus is the Son of God." That is not completely true. Many did not believe, but there are many who did. Almost all of the 12 original apostles were Jews. I'm sure they believed who Jesus was. Matthew also was a Jew. Peter himself, being a Jew, he confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Please know that I am in no way wanting to argue with you. I am simply sharing with you what I understand from my study of scripture. I know you are doing the same and I appreciate anything and everything you wish you share. We may or may not always agree, but there's always something we can learn from each other. I have been posting here for about five years now, and many here have an idea of what I believe and don't believe. I think you are fairly new here, so we have not learned much from each other as far as what our beliefs are. I hope to learn more about your beliefs. Thank you for sharing!

Jesse thanks for the reply. I think that approach of "I'm right and your wrong" belongs to people who are not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them. We have to be completely opened minded to the truth to be lead to the truth. The Word of God is the truth, and Heb.4:12 tells us it is Alive! Jesse do you believe Jesus will come for His church before the tribulation starts? Every person that I know who believes in the pre-tribulation rapture say that Mt.Ch.24 is to the Jews. I don't know if you believe that Jesse, but I think maybe most people who do believe that, believe that first because they are taught that, then they let that be a big part of why they see Mt.24 as being to the Jews. The reason for that may be because of v.29-31, where Jesus says 'Immediately after the tribulation" the Son of man comes in the clouds to gather together his elect. So they say that cant be Jesus coming for the church because its after the tribulation. I believe the elect are the children of Israel. In Isa.45:4 For Jacob my servants sake, and ((Israel mine elect)), I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. The word Israel is #3478 in Hebrew, it means he will rule (as) God, a symbolic name of Jacob, also (typically) of his posterity) The word posterity means All future generations. So the 12 tribes, the children of Israel are Gods elect. The same children of Israel that are sealed in Rev.7:4-8, there are 12,000 sealed from each tribe. I agree with you about not wanting to argue Jesse, but we all need to find the truth in scripture and let scripture be our final authority. If you show me where I'm wrong using scripture, that's all I need to see. The Word of God is the truth, and the truth is what matters. Thank you again for your reply Jesse. I look forward to your response.

Jimbob,

Please allow me to make a correction.

Pains of birth: first 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation.

Perils of tribulation: the last 3-1/2 years of the Great Tribulation.

I forgot to put the meaning of the word (called) in my last reply. From Rev.19:9 Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb,.. called#2564; "to call" aloud, bid, call (forth) (whose sur-) name (was called) This connects perfectly with Isa.45:4 For Jacob my servants sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even (called) thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Thank you again Jesse.

Hello Jimbob,

Since you are replying to me, you do not need to send me any of the Strong's Concordance numbers, or definitions of Greek words. I do read Greek so I knew what was meant by those words. If this was intended for anyone else, then my apologies.

I will respond to your other post as soon as I can. It won't be today as I am spending time with family tonight, going to enjoy the Super Bowl.

You have a great evening!

Jimbob,

To answer your question, yes, I do believe in a pre- tribulation rapture of the church. However, I do not base that belief on Matthew 24:29-31. I base my belief on what I read in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5.

Here's something I think is important to understand about end time prophecy:

All prophecies concerning the last days are based upon Daniel 9:24-27, which presents the 70th week of Daniel. And the 70th week of Daniel is divided into four section:

1) Pains of birth: first 3 years of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:4-14)



2) Pivotal point: the mid-point of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:15)



3) Perils of tribulation: the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:16-28)



4) Promise of his coming: the Second Coming of Christ. ( Matthew 24:29-32)

All end time prophecy is centered on the Jewish people.

I can give you my understanding of Matthew 24:29-31, but only if you are interested.

Now I do have a question for you. In one of your posts, you say the elect are not the Jews, but the bride of Christ, the church. But in your current post, you are telling me that the elect are the children of Israel.

Am I missing something here?

Jesse, thanks for the reply. Jesus says in Mt.24:21-22 that the great tribulation will be shortened for the elects sake, just a few verses later He says "Immediately after the tribulation" so we know the elect go through the tribulation period. The verse in my last post Isa.45:4 says 'Israel mine elect" thats the descendants of Israel. The elect, the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ are all the same. theyre just called different names by different people from different books of the Bible. Jesus comes in the clouds One time and its to gather His elect, the church. When we go up to meet our Lord in the clouds, thats when the marriage supper of the Lamb happens. In Rev.Ch.7:3-4 show us all the tribes of the children of Israel being sealed as the servants of God in their foreheads. v.9 shows a great multitude that no man could number, stand before the throne and before the Lamb clothed with (white robes). v.14 tells us these are they which came out of great tribulation. now if we read Rev.19:7-9 we see that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. v 8 tell us And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. (fine linen, clean and white) v.9 says Blessed are they which are (called) unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. Now if we look ahead a few verses to 11-16 this is when Jesus returns on a white horse and those armies that come with Him are clothed in (fine linen, white and clean) in v.14. Remember v.9 said Blessed are those who are (called) to marriage supper of the Lamb. Eph.1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church. (23.Which is his body, the fulness of him that fitteth all in all. (This verse tells us the church is the body of Christ) Rom.12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, Back to v.9 those (called), The word "church" is #1577; it means a calling out. We will meet our Lord in the clouds. Yes please, Mt,24:29-31

(Part 2)

Jimbob,

In Acts 1:10-11, when the Lord ascended up into Heaven, the angel said why do you disciples look up into heaven? Why are you gazing up there? This same Jesus will come in like manner. He will come in the clouds. The actual event recorded is in Revelation 19:11-16, the second coming of Christ. He comes with power and great glory. Revelation 24:31 tells us that when He does come, He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.

I am going to get technical for a moment, just to show how good this passage really is. He is going to send His angels out with a great sound of a Shofar. It's a ram's horn. In the Greek text, the word "sound" is in brackets, which means it has been added to the text by some unseen person who doesn't understand the fact that the word "great" modifies the trumpet. It is called a great Shofar. The prophecy is in Isaiah 27:12-13. It says the great Shofar will blow, and the Lord will gather His people from the four corners of the earth.

So that is very important because that's a prophecy that the Jews looked for. It says He is going to gather them together, (his elect), that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west.

This is my understanding of this section of Matthew.

Jesse I am sorry, but I have to be honest with you, that was confusing. You are letting a theory cause you confusion, it's not Biblical. If you see Mt.24 as prophecy for the Lastdays, and read it as just that, prophecy It will prefectly tell you what that time period will be like, what people will be like, and the things that will take place just before the great tribulation starts. That time period is called the beginning of sorrows, I believe we are in it now. And then After the tribulation the Son of man comes in the clouds to gather His church, which is His elect. The elect are not Jews, and the tribes that mourn, will be mourning because they are left on the earth, and they know the wrath of God is about to be poured out on them. Read (Jn.3:36) The word (tribes) is #5443; it means an offshoot, i.e. (race) or clan, kindred. It means all the (races), it does not mean Jews. Believers will be taken and non-believers left, one shall be taken and the other left. Jesse you said the actual event of Jesus coming in the clouds is recorded in Rev.19:11-16, and you said He comes with power and great glory in Rev.19. What you are saying is twisting the 2 events into one. In Rev.19:11-16 It says nothing about coming in the clouds, and it says nothing about gathering together anybody, and it says nothing about Him coming with power and great glory. Rev.19:11-16 is when Jesus ((comes to the earth)) to reign 1000 years. He will leave the marriage supper of the Lamb and come to the earth riding a white horse to judge and make war. That will start the millennium. Mt.24:29-31 Is when He comes in the clouds with power and great glory, and He gathers together His elect, while True Believers, the elect are caught up to meet Jesus in the air, then they will be taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven while the wrath of God is poured on the disobedient non-believers left on the earth. Read (Jn.3:36) I pray for God to open your eyes to this truth Jesse.

Okay Jimbob,

You began this thread by ending your post with "Any thoughts, anybody?"

Well, I shared my thoughts and your first reply was to tell me I was wrong. And now you are implying that my eyes are blinded to the truth?

You say that none of us have all the answers and that is true. But why is it that if we disagree with each other, I am the one that's wrong, and I am the one who is blind to the truth?

How would you feel if I were to tell you that I would pray that God would open your eyes to the truth? So, we are in disagreement, and God has opened your eyes to the truth but blinded mine, and you feel the need to pray that He will open mine?

I do appreciate prayer, but in this case I don't see it as being necessary. It's not because I believe I am right and you are wrong. I just don't see a need for another believer to ask God to open my eyes to the truth of His word. That should be the responsibility of each and every believer before they approach God's word. It is the individual believer that should open up in prayer, prior to the study of God's word, by asking Him to open their own eyes to the truth.

I think we can both agree that this conversation is not going to change what either of us believe, so I don't have any more "thoughts" that I wish to share.

Jesse I am truly sorry if I offended you by praying for God to open your eyes to this truth. Many people are deceived by the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I pray for God to open their eyes everyday too Jesse. The truth is in scripture, if I have posted ANYTHING out of context, or in any way not Biblical, then point that out to me. I promise you if I'm proven wrong by scripture, then I'll change what I'm saying that's wrong, to that truth. I will let the Word of God be my final authority ALWAYS! Scripture interprets itself if we allow it too. There is no pre-tribulation rapture, and I think that I've proven that by posting verses from the KJB. We have to trust that the Word of God is Truth, when anybody shows us truth from scripture, then we should see that as it is the truth if we are being lead by the Holy Spirit. There are no lies in the KJB! I meant no disrespect Jesse, we are all children of God, And we should be able to learn from each other.

Jimbob,

No worries. I wouldn't say that I am offended. I've been told that I was wrong before. You're not the first. You are the first person however to insinuate that my eyes have been blinded to the truth. And as far as being "deceived," by believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, I don't think I'm being deceived at all. You see, like you, I also believe God's word is true. Like you, I let the Word of God be my final authority. Like you, I believe scripture interprets itself.

I do have one more question for you. If this 7-year tribulation period happens in our lifetime, and you believe the church will go through not only the first half, but also the last 3-1/2 years known as the Great Tribulation, what do you believe our function will be as a church while God's wrath is being poured out on this earth?

Again, I am not offended. If we disagree with each other then we just disagree. I have no problem with you simply telling me that you disagree. That sounds much better than insinuating that my eyes have been blinded to the truth.

Jesse As we have discussed before, nobody has all the answers. One could be on the mark in many different parts of Bible prophecy, but be mislead on a few things, or just misinterpret certain things and be lead away from the truth. If anybody is believing something that's not Biblical, their eyes are not open to that truth, Or you could say they are being deceived! The subject of when Jesus returns could be the biggest deception with us today, IF the pre-tribulation rapture is not truth. If we allow the scriptures to interpret themselves, then I do not see how one could come up with pre-trib being truth unless its what was taught to that person first, and then they would see all scriptures in a way that fits, or aligns with that belief. You asked what would be the role of the church during the wrath of God? When Jesus returns in the clouds for the church, all True Believers will meet Him in the clouds and be taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb. (Mt.24:29-31) (1.Thes.4:15-17) (Rev.19:7-9) At the same time, the same day the wrath of God is being poured out on those non-believers left on the earth. Read Zeph.1:14-18 The day of the LORD is also the day of His wrath. Jn.3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: (Believers will be caught up to meet our Lord in the clouds on that great day) and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (The wrath of God will be poured on those who believeth not the Son, all non-believers or disobedient ones, it will start the same day Believers are taken from the earth. The church will not be here for that Jesse. 1 Thes.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (The great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.) Rom.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Scripture interprets scripture. Thank you Jesse.

Jimbob,

Your thoughts are worth giving consideration. I agree that what one has been taught will influence how they interpret Scripture. That is why we have so many viewpoints. It is good to take these different ideas and study them to see if they align with Scripture. Learning how those who adhere to their viewpoint support it and also learning how those who hold a different view explains their objections to that which they do not hold to is good to do.

We all need to be humble, teachable, discerning, and able to recognize the lead of the the true Holy Spirit in matters of doctrine and practice. The history of the church over the centuries is riddled with differing views and doctrines on many important Scriptural teachings. God has given the church over the centuries many men who have been blessed with strong intellectual skills shaped by faith that have rebutted false ideas and also intelligently explained Scriptural truths to believers throughout history. The Apostle Paul is one of those men so gifted and used of God as a gift to the church. The church has a long history of similar men, not that their words are inspired Scripture, but, like Paul, they have been gifted intellectually in order to give a reasoned, measured, thoughtful, and seasoned defense of the faith once and for all handed down to the church.

Jimbob,

Please don't take this the wrong way because it's just an observation. GiGi said that "Your thoughts are worth giving consideration." You respond back with "please don't see what I post as my thoughts"

I can understand why you said that, but what seems odd is that you began this thread by posting what you see as truth, and then at the end of your post, you ask for our "thoughts."

So is what we post considered our thoughts? I mean, that's what you asked for, our thoughts?

Jesse When I make a post I use the KJB and most of the time a Strongs Concordance to get the meanings of the words in the original languages. Not my thoughts. When I asked for your thoughts on this post, it was for the very reason you replied, that the word "generation" didn't mean what I had posted it to mean. But in this post the word generation was being used in context, (a time period) This was also a post where I was using a date of when Israel became a nation to start the generation period. And also I had given the meaning of the words "labour" and "sorrow" where the original meanings sound a lot like the times we are living today, that's why I asked for your thoughts Jesse. If someone asks for your thoughts, I would assume you give them your thoughts. Sometimes that can lead into deeper discussions, which can be very fruitful or productive, sometimes not. Because I asked for your thoughts for this post, does not mean my posts are my thoughts! Please don't be offended but It seems you are kind of twisting the words a little bit here Jesse. Thank you for your observation.

GiGi Thank you for that comment, there is a lot of wisdom in it. But please don't see what I post as my thoughts, look at the scriptures and see if they are being used in context with what I am saying. Anything I post if you think it is out of context, then please let me know. I've said it several times in my posts, Heb.4:12 The Word of God is Alive today. If we think we already know the truth of scripture in our minds, how can the Holy Spirit teach us?

Hello Jimbob,

I stand with what I said concerning thoughts. Anything one posts that is not the words of Scripture are one's own thoughts . To think otherwise is disingenuous, in my opinion. I do check out the Scriptures cited and reflect on it along with the thoughts posted by the poster. As to being more open to instruction, I agree! I have learned a great deal since entering this forum over a year ago. However, I do think that there are some tenets taught in Scripture that we can be sure of and be convinced are true. We should have confidence in the Holy Spirit to confirm matters of faith in us.

Jimbob

I believe you are correct regarding the sequence of events. The return of Christ, the Resurrection, the Rapture, and the beginning of Judgement Day are simultaneous events occurring IMMEDIATELY after the Great Tribulation. Matt 24 and other passages are very clear about that.

The Great Tribulation is a spiritual event. It is not a time of unusual physical suffering and is not a political event involving specific nations of the world.

I believe we are currently living in that day, as I have posted earlier.

David0920 We will have to live during the great tribulation but it won't start until the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt.24:15) This will be when the antichrist is given power for 42 months. This is the last half of the week, the last 3 1/2 years, (See Rev.13:5) that's called great tribulation, But God will shorten it for the elects sake (Mt.24:21-22) The mark of the beast will not allow you, or any Believer in Jesus Christ to buy food or anything else unless you accept the mark (Rev.13:16-17) To accept the mark will be serving the beast, with is serving Satan. And God will pour out His wrath on all who accept the mark. Rev.14:9-11 (9. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (The great tribulation is yet on happen, but the way things are looking in this world it will be soon! It looks like, according to scripture like we are living in the time Jesus called the beginning of sorrows in Mt.24:8. Thank you for your reply.

Jimbob,

Thank you for the reply. I guess we're just going to have to remain in disagreement. If the Lord returns during our lifetime, and you believe you will be here during the tribulation, then I do wish you all the luck. As for me, I don't believe I will be here.

Jimbob;

Have you every considered that you might not be seeing, we all fall into this sin.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now ye saw WE SEE; therefore your sin remaineth.

God Bless You!

Ruby Lea Read Do you mean it's better to not know the truth?

Jimbob:

We are constantly seeing; but not seeing.

This is all God's doing, we repent of our seeing; but not seeing, as he causes light to shine into darkness, if your not constantly repenting of you beliefs an growing in wisdom and understanding, your not maturing in the word.

We started learning by what our elders taught us, they most often are still in darkness, also, it's hard to repent of mans teachings, because we think our parents and pastors KNOW, which is probably not true.

As you study ask yourself; did I learn this from MAN, or the teaching of the SPIRIT.

Remember the whole world has been deceived, only the Spirit can bring you to TRUTH: It'a all the WORK of God, not man.

God Bless YOU!

Dear Ruby,

I understand the importance to test all things according to the Word of God. And I do think that we mature as believers over time and there is need to discard some viewpoints on Scripture and doctrines in favor of more accurate understanding.

I differ with you in that I will not despise the teachings of my parents, pastors, or others I know in the Lord who trained me up in the faith. This is the function of these people. To think that a person alone, and without outside instruction from seasoned believers can rightly interpret the Scriptures unerringly is a false and dangerous idea. It opens one up to all sorts of imaginings that go against God's word. I am not saying that the Spirit does not teach us truthfully. He does, but this is often through interaction with other believers with the Word. Loners tend to fall into great error and those who insist that they do not need to consider the teachings of other believers leads one to be unteachable even before the Holy Spirit.

GiGi:

I agree with you, I was raise in a church, taught by my parents, pastors, Sunday school teachers: this is all God's work, part of the plan of God, everyone posting on here, and those reading those post, is part of God's plan, but most people just stop with the basic, the milk, and never mature, able to digest the WORDS.

I was taught, believe in Jesus and you go to heaven, don't believe and go to hell, this is a far cry from what the WORD teaches about THE KINGDOM.

As we mature we should encourage other to get off MILK.

God has a plan for everyone in his creation, and through HIS knowledge and wisdom, all will eventually submit themselves to Christ, and God will be all in all.

Eternity is a long time; is it linear, or a circle?

In God's eyes IT'S ALREADY DONE.

Yes I think so too . A couple of little verses that can get overlooked Romans ch4 v 17 and Hebrews ch4 v 3 .

Ruby

I was blessed with far more instruction about God, our Lord, salvation, our Christian walk, and much much more by my parents and my church growing up. So, I come from a different perspective than you. I think it is certainly common over the centuries and today for believers to become mature within the church and home setting. So, it is probably a good idea, perhaps, to speak to your own lack of instruction growing up that did not lead you to maturity rather than give an outright statement that impugns the role and function of the teachings we receive from parents, pastors, teachers, fellow believers, and our own walk with God throughout those years by saying does not mature believers.

I do understand the need to "own" one's faith when we become adults by studying for ourselves the Word and measuring that against the Scriptures. There certainly is a great need to disciple teens and young adults who have grown up in a Christian home and church along with new believers whatever their age. The goal is to be brought to maturity, whatever the manner that God chooses to do so.

God's blessing on you, Ruby.

Ruby Lea Read You just made my point exactly! We have to be lead by the Holy Spirit, He will teach us all things. We can not believe things that were taught to us by man! I do not allow any man to teach me. I do my own studies in a KJB and pray to be lead by the Holy Spirit, every Believer should do the same. (1.Jn.2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, ((and ye need not that any man teach you)): but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. For one to allow the Holy Spirit to teach them all things, we cannot think we already know until He shows us. We truly need to be completely opened minded to the truth, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into His Truth. (Heb.4:12) Tells us the Word of God is Alive today. Scripture will interpret scripture, there are no lies in them. Thank you, Ruby for your reply.

I agree the Bible is alive !

Hello again, Jimbob,

As you asked, here is what I can share on Matthew 24:29-31. I will need more than one post to give you, my understanding.

(Part 1)

These verses speak of the promise of Jesus' second coming. Understanding the 7-steps of a Jewish wedding helps give a better understanding of Christ's second coming, and also some of the Jewish views about when Christ is coming back. If you would like for me to send you what the 7-steps are, I will do so. It is very interesting, I promise! They are literal steps of a Jewish wedding, and they parallel the things spoken of in Matthew's gospel.

So, reading through Matthew 24:29-30, it says that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give any light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

Now the word "tribes" is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.

In Revelation 1:7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.

So, at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" They are going to recognize Him. And we see in Verse 31 that the Lord's going to round them all up. It says in this verse that He's going to come upon the clouds of heaven. That's given to us in Daniel 7:13.

To be continued...

Jimbob,

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you that the term elect is referring to the church. We are the bride of Christ. I agree to that. But we are not the elect. Going all the way back to the OT, the term elect is a title referring to the Jews. The church was not in existence when the Jews were given this title. They are God's elect, His chosen people. Looking at Matthew 24:22 which says "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

If God did not have a time period when He says okay, I am going to stop, everybody would be wiped out. But for the sake of the elect, which again is special word brought over from the Old Testament as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. It does not mean they are all saved. They are His chosen people, His idea, and He has chosen them out. And He realizes there are 144,000 of them out there, plus all the others who believed, and this is something that is going to happen at the last part of the tribulation period. Those days will be shortened for the 144,000 Jews. The church will not be here.

In Revelation Chapter 11, John says that at the second coming of Christ, all of Israel will be saved. That is what that verse makes reference to. At His second coming, all of the Jews at that time will be saved. So, God shortened the days, 3 years, just so His own people (His elect) could survive.

You are asking for my understanding of Matthew 24:29-31, so I will share that with you in a separate post as there is not enough space here to do so.

Jesse There are too many holes in the pre-tribulation rapture theory for it to be in alignment with the Word of God. It's like a puzzle with pieces mixed up with another puzzle, the pieces don't fit, and you can't make them fit. (If we look at the verses in context) then the pre-tribulation rapture is only a theory. You said the elect is a term referring to the Jews, you said it's a special word brought over from the Old Testament as a title for the Jewish people. Jesse the word elect is only in the Old Testament 4 times, and all 4 are in the book of Isaish. I don't see either of them saying anything about the Jewish people. Here's 1 of them again. Isa. 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and ((Israel mine elect)) I have even (called thee) by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (This verse is the LORD speaking!!) He is calling His elect Israel, not Jews. Here's the word Israel in Hebrew, and Greek. (1st. in Hebrew #3478; it means he will rule (as) God, a symbolic name of Jacob, also (typically) of his posterity. Now the word Israel in Greek #2474; it means the adopted name of Jacob including his descendants. God said ISRAEL MINE ELECT, Israel today are his descendants, which are the 12 tribes of Israel. They are those 144,000 servants of God who are sealed in Rev.Ch.7, 12,000 from each tribe. Jesse Gods elect are not the Jews. We have to let the Word of God be our final authority. Here's another one Isa.42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; ((mine elect)), in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring judgment to the Gentiles. (I don't think God is talking about putting His spirit upon the Jews who took part in crucifying Jesus Christ, and don't believe Jesus is the Son of God today. I don't think Gods soul delighteth in the Jews. Also the Jews are not going to bring judgment to the Gentiles. Israels posterity, his descendants are Gods elect. It is written Jesse. I think you made a typo on Rev.11 Jesse.