Bible Discussion Thread

Part 3.

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch's translation and Elijah's being "caught up" as previews of the Rapture. "For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up." Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church's being "caught up" before the tribulation. "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be' ( Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The italicized "this" in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces

See part 4.

S Spencer Thank you for your response. You ask How are we tested? If were protected against the tribulation and kept in it. (This will be a time of testing for ALL that dwell on the earth, but if we keep His Word we will not be tempted) Rev.3:8 says ,"and hath (kept my word), and hath not denied my name". Rev.3:10 Says "Because thou hast (kept the word) of my patience". Because they have kept His word, and do not deny His name they will not be deceived or tempted by the antichrist. Rev.13:5-8 Tell us the antichrist is given power for 42 months,(This will be great tribulation, the time of testing) v.8 says all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, ((whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.)) If your name is written in the book of life you will still be on the earth at this time, but you have kept His Word and that will keep you from being deceived as to not accept the mark of the beast. There are 7 churches, to ALL 7 He said "He that overcometh, or to him that overcometh" and those who overcome will receive ((from Jesus Christ good things)). Rev.2:7 is (Ephesus) Rev.2:11 is (Smyrna) Rev.2:17 is (Pergamos) Rev.2:26 is (Thyatira) Rev.3:5 is (Sardis) Rev.3:12 is (Philidelphia) Rev.3:21 is (Laodicea) ALL 7 CHURCHES have those who overcome! Rev.21:7 Tell us "He that overcometh shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Spencer are all who overcome from all 7 churches raptured out before the tribulation?) Rev.2:10 Says "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, and ye shall be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. This is the church of Smyrna and they are not raptured out before the tribulation, but some overcome. If this time were not shortened in Mt.24:22, Believers would not be able to endure to the end! Keep thee from, is not to take out.

Thanks for replying Jimbob.

John was told to Write the things which thou hast seen, (The pre-incarnate Christ.)

and the things which are, (Church things. Then and now)

and the things which shall be hereafter; (The rest of the book)

By the time we get to Revelation 4:1 There's no more mention of the Church. So the overcoming has been done before the Tribulation.

And the overcoming is done by the Holyspirit. There is nothing you and I can do to present ourselves righteous before God. It's him that keeps us.

Concerning Revelation 2:10

It has already past. 10 days refers to 10 periods under 10 Roman Imperors.

The "ten days" in Revelation 2:10 refers to ten persecutions that began with Nero and ended with Diocletian at the end of the third century.

The early Church was persecuted and under tribulation. NOT THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Jimbob I see you Brother Chris and others have covered much of this topic. I'm not sure what you guys covered,

I haven't had the chance to read much of it.

I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

However I would love to discuss soteriology with you.

I don't believe the eschatology views have anything to do with whether one is saved or not.

May I ask How do you feel about that?

Are we saved by grace?

Works "of the Law"?

Both? ect..

S Spencer To say Rev.2:10 is speaking of 10 persecutions that happened around the 3rd century is one I have never heard before. As for discussing Soteriology, Thank you for the invitation Spencer, But I do think I'll pass that one up. Blessings.

Thanks and God bless Jimbob.

Brother S Spencer:

You are correct, we are save by grace, PERIOD.

Knowledge of the scriptures just makes us good messengers of the gospel.

God Bless YOU!

Amen Earl.

God bless you.

Jimbob:

Revelation is the revealing of JESUS CHRIST

The 42 months in Revelation is the 3 1/2 years of Christ ministry in the flesh; ending in HIS death and resurrection, not the reign of a single man called antichrist.

The verses are talking about the works of Satan; which is the spirit of antichrist, not a SINGLE antichrist, everyone starts with this spirit of antichrist and it has to be DESTROYED.

His resurrection DESTROYED the works of Satan:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil (they blaspheme God's name), for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR THIS PURPOSE was the Son of God manifested. That HE (truth) might DESTROY the WORKS of the DEVIL (lies and deception).

You believe antichrist is flesh and blood, a single MAN, God's world says:

Ephesians 6:12 We wrestle not against FLESH and BLOOD (a single antichrist), but against -----the SPIRIT of ANTICHRIST: the carnal mind in ALL OF US -----It has to be DESTROYED and REPLACED with the mind of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 An when that WICKED (deceived mind, the spirit of antichrist) be REVEALED (in ALL of US), Whom the LORD (the WORD) SHALL CONSUME (destroy) with the spirit of his mouth (the WORD of GOD), and shall DESTROY withe the BRIGHTNESS of HIS COMING (Christ in you, truth and life IN YOU).

Matthew 12:28 But if I (the WORD) cast out devils (lies and deception) BY the Spirit of GOD (truth and life) then the KINGDOM HAS COME UNTO YOU.

God BLESS YOU!

Ruby Lea Read, Im sorry Ruby but I can't agree with pretty much anything you have stated in your comment.. You can read Rev.Ch.13 and see clearly there's a beast, which is also called the antichrist who is given power to continue 42 months. You are adding your interpretation to the scriptures instead of letting the scriptures speak or themselves. You would just about eliminate the whole book of Revelation if what you are saying were true. Thank you anyway Ruby.

Jimbob:

The whole of God's word is about ONE thing, THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

You could eliminate the whole New Testament and still come to the truth about THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Paul and the other apostles can to the truth about the KINGDOM.

They had no New TESTAMENT, they came to TRUTH about the kingdom; from Moses and the PROPHETS, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, then they penned letters and gospels, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, that make up the New Testament.

All their writing are just second WITNESS of Moses and the Prophets, including Revelation.

Luke 16:31 ...if they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one was raised from the dead.

Acts 28:23 ....to whom he expounded and testified THE KINGDOM OF GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and the Prophets, from morning till evening.

The beast of Revelation is in the Prophets, search the scriptures, don't listen to the traditions of MAN.

1 John 2:27 The anointing which you have received of him abideth IN YOU, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the anointing teacheth you ALL THINGS, and is truth, and no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God Bless YOU!

Amen to you for that !

Jimbob:

Show me the scripture that says there is a single antichrist.

All of Revelation has been explained in Moses and the Prophets,

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do NOTHING, but he REVEALETH to his servants the PROPHETS.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice (replaced by Christ being the LAMB) BE TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.

42 months, 3 1/2 years, this is the same 42 months in Revelation, Christ ministry on earth.

God Bless You!

Ruby Lea Read In 2.Thes.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. (This verse tells us there is A MAN OF SIN, also called the ((son of perdition)) that will be revealed before the return of Christ. (son of perdition) is in the Bible 2 times. The 1st time is Jn.17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the ((son of perdition)); that the scripture might be fulfilled. (This son of perdition was a man, and his name was Judas Iscariot) Judas was possessed by Satan, we are told that in (Lu.22:3 and in Jn.13:27) The only other time ((son of perdition)) is mentioned is 2.Thes.2:3 which happens just before the return of Jesus Christ. So this son of perdition IS A MAN, a man of sin. And we are told in Eccle.1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. (If the 1st son of perdition was a man, who was possessed by Satan then Eccle.1:9 tells us the 2nd son of perdition who is a man will also be possessed by Satan). 1.Jn.2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard ((that antichrist)) shall come, (this antichrist is singular, its speaking of 1, not many as the rest of the verse does say) even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. The son of perdition IS that antichrist! Blessings Ruby.

Jimbob:

Are you saying you better than Judas, and you are not a son of perdition.

If the son of perdition is describing a single antichrist; then the antichrist was Judas, and the antichrist has already come; IF 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ....the son of predition is also describing antichrist; then there would be 2 antichrist.

The son of perdition is describing all the antichrist, NOT JUST ONE.

2 John 1:7 ....ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW there are many ANTICHRIST ----sons of perdition ---

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceiver you by any means: for THAT DAY --- 2 Thessalonians 2:8 ---the day the lord consumes you ---destroys YOU --- the son of perdition --- with the brightness of HIS COMING ---his PRESENCE IN YOU ---and there first must come a FALLING AWAY ---what have you got to fall away from ----- your deception ---- an repent of what you believe --- the son of perdition is not someone else IT'S YOU ---- it's any person reading God's word --- the word's of God are for whoever is reading those words --- it's about revealing the KINGDOM to the person reading.

If you judge yourself by GOD'S WORD, you want be judged with the world.

Antichrist is any and everything that isn't Christ --- the word of God --- all the beliefs contrary to God's word.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who CONFESS NOT Jesus is COME in the FLESH, this is a deceiver and an a antichrist.

Have you confessed that Christ is come, by HIS resurrection, and now lives IN YOU --- YOUR flesh ---- or are you still deceived and an antichrist needing to have your carnal mind destroyed.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God that WORKETH IN YOU (your flesh) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

Are YOU:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 ... so that he (the son of perdition) sitteth in the temple of God ---- YOUR the temple of God ----so whose on the throne ---Christ, or the son of perdition ----If it's YOU then get back on the cross.

God Bless YOU!

Yes ! I have always believed that we ( humans ) are the anti-Christ , from the moment we disobeyed Him and bit into that apple we have been at variance to Him as we all are this day . What is the fruit of humanity ? What have we as a species done / created ? Technology that's what . We have not changed ourselves , we are no better than we ever been , treating each other so disgustingly bad ,however we have altered our , no God's ! planet , with our fruits . Science denies the existence of God as it seeks to glorify itself and it's proponents . The word science is mentioned twice I think in the New testament , and it's not a favourable judgement . Ask most commited atheists why they don't believe in a God and they will mutter something about evolution or scientific discoveries and explanations . The curtain will eventually be pulled aside and the wizard of Oz will be exposed , may Christ return ever so soon , when it is God's will .

Hi Jimbob.

You're not intruding at all.

This is not a bad topic, I'm just sorry I'm so behind on reading most of it. It makes us dig and learn as I believe Brother Chris said.

We don't have a lock on this topic,

I was just emphasizing to Gigi that whether right or wrong when we openly refuse ones view offer yours.

Maybe that person is wrong but you don't help them by keeping what you learned to yourself and refute their beliefs by other means.

Now concerning Revelation 3:10

You put the emphasis on "keep" or to "guard against." (Also Strongs).

I'm putting emphasis on "FROM" THE "HOUR" (season" or time.)

It doesn't say during the hour. It says from the hour or "season" or time.

But here is how it doesn't fit a post-trib viewpoint.

Some say we are to be brought through the tribulation for a time of testing. or persecution. If we're protected against it and kept in it.

How are we tested?

This temptation shall come upon "ALL THE WORLD", to try them that (DWELL) upon the earth.

Throughout scripture Gods people is not identified as earth dwellers.

You see this often in the OT those who dwell in the land as the opposition.

In Daniel 7:25 it says the Antichrist shall wear out the saints during this period. That's not the Church if we consider Revelation 3:10 as you see it.

Here's a unique picture of what might be a picture of the Rapture in the OT.

Isaiah 26:19-21 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST.

For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".

thru

Isaiah 27:1.

God bless.

Thanks brother S. Spencer for the fuller understanding of Revelation 3:10. Jimbob was quite correct on the word "keep" in that verse (as he wrote): "The word (keep) is #5083; it means to guard, (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon)". But as you pointed out, the whole phrase needs to be considered to get the meaning.

So, in this case, the Greek would read, "tereso ek" = 'to keep from'; (with 'ek', meaning, 'from out, out from among, from'). If we apply any other inference from this phrase, other than 'keeping or guarded from', then we have to ask the questions, 'how is the Lord Jesus going to guard the Church from (or even, during) this hour of trial upon the whole world?' Will He shelter, protect, or even move the Church to a distant place to avoid this trial (tribulation)? What then should the Church make of the warnings about not receiving the anti-Christ's mark, of various physical sufferings, even beheadings, if Christ has secured us ("kept us") from such testings? Then there arises a problem in understanding the position of the Church: pre, mid, or post tribulation, & the appearance of the anti-Christ & subsequent trials believers face or don't face. Only the pre-trib position adequately fits the meaning of this verse.

Actually, the problem I do have with these verses is, 'whatever happened to the Philadelphian Church to whom this promise was made?' Philadelphia, a well known city has long gone/in ruins, with only a handful of the taller building columns exposed above the ground, and the city, Alasehir, now built on top of it. This Church never realized the promise given to them, but the Church today all over the world can confidently hang onto it as we await the Lord's return.

Amen Brother Chris.



FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK:

I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 can be useful in giving us insight on understanding other scriptures and that insight might in return give us more understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2

Such as Revelation 16:8-11 and Revelation 17:12-14. This evil mindset can only be accomplished if the Holyspirit role has changed in a way that it's not functioning today.

Even non believers wouldn't behave in this manner while the restrainer is present.

Here in Revelation 16 and 17 you see the true condition of man's heart apart from the restraint of the Holyspirit.

Even non believers will repent but turn back.

John 1:9 must won't apply during this time.

This is what happens when darkness is manifested in man.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 on one hand we see the eschatology view and on the other hand we see the condition of man's heart without God's spirit.

I believe the Holyspirit spirit will be in the world as he was in the OT bringing people to Christ.

God bless you Brother.

Thank you brother S. Spencer - I fully agree with your thoughts of the all encompassing Work of the Holy Spirit, not only in the believer, but also in His restraint of evil in the World, preventing its full manifestation. So we see His restraining Work, not only in the revelation of the anti-Christ, but for mankind, in the most part, to still hold onto proper behavior, mainly by the workings of his conscience & the laws set by governments. Once the Holy Spirit relinquishes His influence upon the World through His Presence in Christ's Church, evil would know no bounds, and consciences "seared with a hot iron" giving way to all manner of wickedness. And their chief architect, Satan himself in anti-Christ, will rightly receive the world's worship, for this is their god that draws their hearts, syncs with their evil consciences, & fulfils all their pleasure & lusts.

But how the Holy Spirit will still be in the world, with the absence of the Church, I'm unable to settle on & reconcile in my mind. I would have to leave that thought awaiting the Spirit's further help & direction. Will connect with you & others again after three weeks when I hope to return from vacation. Blessings.

S. Spencer, this does not speak of a pre-trib rapture because it says plainly,"in the end" which is the end of history-Jesus' second and last coming.

S. Spencer, can you give the exact quote and reference for Irenenaeus?

Gigi.

I didn't read any of that Material!!

Not one sentence!

I didn't know Irenenaeus was mentioned.

I was just showing your 99.9 percent might be in jeopardy.

Just kidding.

I was showing you can get what you want out of the internet if you search hard enough.

I'm not saying that it's not useful.

But I am saying I wouldn't use it as concrete evidence.

Gigi I have seen you state you walked with God for 60 years!!

I don't quite know what that means but it sounds good.

I expect doctrine broken down by scripture when you present yourself as a authoritive figure.

You've also stated that you're not as "scholarly" in the old testament as you are in the new testament,

But I would say you can't be scholarly at one and not be at the other!

And most of what you get out of Revelation and the end times is going to come from the Old Testament.

GB.

Well S. Spencer,

I don't think that what you aimed to show by these 9 posts then was above board. I thought you were really trying to us information that could shed light on the what Christians believed post apostolic up to now. But it seems you were toying with me.

I am very sincere in what I write and post. I have studied the Scripture over and over again on end times since my teens. I have walked with the Lord for as long as I can remember, so therefore, I have been a believer nearly all of my life. I can't remember a time when I did not believe the Gospel nor put my faith in Jesus. I hope that makes it more clear to you.

I think there is value in studying history whether from an book or from the internet. The testimony of Jesus in believers has a history of nearly 2000 years. We should be humble enough to learn from others across the ages.

I do not think I am an authority on any matters of doctrine. I am not speaking authoritatively in my posts. But I do believe my viewpoints align with Scripture.

For me, I prefer it when people explain their doctrines not just list Scripture after Scripture without much explanantion. I do hear you when you ask people to use Scripture, and I do, but do not always cite it.

I do not think it is always helpful to break down Scriptures as you say. I think this often leads to error. So you can do your posts your way and I am fine with that.

And I will take your suggestions to heart. But also, I hope you can come to appreciate my way of presenting my views as they are, like yours, interpretations of what we have learned from the Scriptures.

Steven, it seems that when we disagree on a viewpoint such as this one, you do tend to say things to discredit my viewpoint as being invalid because I research along with studying Scripture. Please! I doubt you came to your pre-trib views nor dispensational thinking only by studying Scripture. I can pretty much bet your have read about it in writings other than the Scripture.

Hi Gigi.

I haven't been ignoring you, I just chose to hold off from reading replies until I could focus on answering rather than multitasking as I seem to can't get away from.

It's not your view that's the issue, It's the lack of knowledge and evidence you present when you rebuking

If you have been studying scripture on eschatology you share what you have learned out of scripture! Not "What you think was taught over the centuries. If one gives you a scripture such as Revelation 3:10 as a proven pret-rib verse Meaning kept OUT of that time!

(From the "HOUR" of temptation)

Should you say no it's not or deal with this verse with your own interpretation? You say "It don't say that, and then go on to say what you think others in the past had to say.

That's the issue I have with your rebuttals.

It's not one that helps. I've known for a while you were on opposite sides of many views and that isn't the problem. It's the way you enter the discussion.

When you do explain your view you leave holes that need to be filled with scripture!

For instance, you said you believe in the Millennium but it's not on earth, it's in Heaven.

Well you have A LOT of old testament scriptures you have to clarify!! A LOT!!

You said the rapture is at the end of the world when we are Judged. How does that work being that the Millennium is in Heaven? Please explain that because that's not even a post-trib view!!

How does it work?

How do you associate this with Revelation 20:7-8 ?

'And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations WHICH ARE IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH, Gog and MaGog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Also Revelation 20:9.

Do you understand why I say you should show why you hold these views that doesn't seem to line up.

I wish I had more time to engage. Hopefully soon I will.

Go's bless

S Spencer Not meaning to intrude here but it seems that the Rev.3:10 verse is not in context if one is to use it as a pre-tribulation rapture verse. Rev.3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will (keep) thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. The word (keep) is #5083; it means to guard, (from lose or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon. It says nothing about being removed or taken away from anything as a protection, but as guarding, by keeping the eye upon. Rev.1:3 has the same meaning, lets look at that verse. Rev.1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and (keep) those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. The word (keep) in this verse has the same meaning. It would be taking this verse completely out of context also to say (keep) in this verse means taken out, or to be removed from. Many pre-trib believers use Rev.3:10 as a verse to prove they will be taken out before the tribulation. But as you can see here they are taking it completely out of context, like they do many other verses. Sorry if I intruded Spencer.

Hi Jimbob.

Matthew 24:37-42.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

How do you view this section of scripture? Rapture? Who's taken away? The righteous?

I say it's not a Rapture verse at all I believe it's judgment at the end of the age. And the elect here is Israel. Not the Church as some say.

Those taken away in the flood was those outside the ark.

We are told to watch and be ready.

Why?

So we can escape?

Escape what?

The Lords wrath right?

If we're not appointed to wrath there must be a way of escape.

So when do we escape? Pre-trib or Post?

So far either works, right?

The issue with the Post-trib view at this point is that it's not eminent. We know that there's seven years that has to go by.

I say eminent means he can come now.

And we escape because we're not appointed to wrath.

We're Children of the Light.

1 Peter 2:8.

We've been made ready by the blood of Christ.

God bless.

Brother Spencer,

Thank you for sharing this piece of scripture from Matthew Chapter 24. This section ( Matthew 24:37-41) gives us the preconditions to the coming of Christ.

You may already know this, but after God shut the door on the ark, how long was it until it started raining? One week. That is prophecy!

After the door was shut, they still didn't know it. That is why it says they didn't know it until the flood came. The flood came and took them all away. It was life as usual until it came, and it was sudden, and it was quick, and it was unexpected. Matthew 24:39 tells us that it will be the same prior to Christ's second coming.

In Matthew 24:40-41, with the one taken and the other left, there are different views about two in the field, one is taken, one is left. Where does the one go that is taken? We know where the one that is left is, but what about the one that is taken?

Some say it's taken into judgment (which is what I think you and I both believe) and some say it's for salvation, a person is taken saved. I have heard others say it's one of these gatherings, the Lord gathering His people from the four corners of the earth.

But in Luke's account ( Luke 17:37), it tells us that they are taken into judgment. They are drawn into the Valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon.



I say this because as I go through Revelation, I see that God is the one that draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo to fight against Him when He comes.

In Luke 17:37, when the disciples asked Jesus where the one taken would be, because they said "Where, Lord?"

Jesus says "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the vultures be gathered together. He is talking about that day when people are going to gather together in the Valley outside of Jerusalem to fight against Christ at His coming. Remember the birds are going to be called in to feed on their carcasses. These people (the one taken) have been drawn out into the battle.

God bless!

Amen Brother Jesse!

And thanks for sharing that.

I didn't know the timing of the rain.

Thank you.

God bless and Goodnight.

Hello Jesse. Do you think that since those verses just before are saying one shall be taken and the other left, could the (body) be something else? like maybe the (body) of Christ which IS THE CHURCH? Eph.1:22-23 (22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (23) Which is his body, the fulness of him that fitteth all in all. (The church is the body of Christ, so since its saying one shall be taken, and the word (taken) means (to receive near, take (unto, with) Do you think that the body spoken of could be the church, the body of Christ which was just taken into the air to meet the Lord in the clouds? (It says eagles not vultures) The word (eagles) is #105; it means an eagle from its wind like flight, (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire by analogy to blow) "air" (as naturally circumambient) air. The ones taken, (received unto himself) is the church! That sounds pretty logical if you look at it in that way, right? As for where they are taken? They are taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb, (the church is the bride of Christ, is it not?) while the wrath of God is being poured out on those disobedient ones left on the earth. After the marriage supper when Jesus comes back riding a white horse with the church, that's when the battle of Armageddon happens. He comes to judge and make war which will end the wrath of God on the earth and start the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

(Part-1):

Jimbob,

As for the reason for me using the word vulture instead of eagle, you are correct in saying that the KJV says eagle. Many other English translations use the word vulture which would be a better translation and make more sense. We are told that they will come and eat the flesh of the dead carcasses. Eagles kill their prey. They do not feed on dead carcasses. Vultures feed on dead flesh. Revelation 19:21 says fowls. The Textus Receptus used the word ORNEA which translates to birds. So, this does not tell us whether it is an eagle or a vulture. However, vulture would seem correct.

Now when I look at Luke 17:37 in the Greek Interlinear Bible, the word used which you properly gave is G105 (AETOI). However, the Greek Interlinear says vulture, not eagle. And the word body in the same verse (SOMA) could mean either a living body, or a dead body or corpse. So, in Luke 17:37, it would make more sense that it is talking about dead carcasses that the vulture will come and feast on.

I do agree that the church is the body of Christ, but we are not the body that these birds will be feasting on. That's why I say that this "body" that is taken is one who is taken into judgment, into that great battle that will take place when Christ comes back. And those ones who are taken will all be killed, and the vultures will come and feed on their carcasses.

And yes, I agree that the church will be at the marriage supper in heaven while the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth. And I also would agree that once the tribulation period has ended, we (the church) come back with Christ at His second coming. I guess I should try and get over my fear of riding horses!

Blessings to you!!!

Jesse Thanks for the reply. First I would like to ask you if you believe the KJB is the preserved Word of God? Ps.12:6-7 is Gods promise to preserve His Word forever. We do have that preserved Word today or those verses would be a lie, God cannot lie. Now the focus has been on Luke.17:37 which you say the word (body) could mean either a living body, or a dead body or corpse. The word (body) in that verse is #4983; it means the body (as a sound whole) "safe" to save, i.e. deliver or protect, save. So this (body) spoken of here is "safe" saved, delivered. It doesn't mean a living body, or a dead body like you said Jesse. If you look at Luke.17:37 you see that its just ((after))the verses that say "one shall be taken, and the other left". And the meaning of (body) is "safe" to save, deliver or protect, save. This is not speaking of a carcass that the fowl of the air will be filled with their flesh. Does it? Those taken are safe, saved, delivered! Where you are confusing the word carcass with the word (body) is in Mt.24:28 where it says "For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. But if we look at this verse it happens during the tribulation because the next verse says "Immediately after the tribulation". The verses that say "one shall be taken , and the other left" in Mt.Ch.24 comes AFTER this, which would be AFTER the tribulation. Now if we add the meaning of the word (taken) from Mt.24:40-41 (taken) it is #3880; it means to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in a familiar or ((intimate)) act or relation) So the (body) of those taken in Lu.17:37 are "safe" saved. delivered or protected. And the word (taken) in Mt,24:40-41 it means to receive near, intimate act or relation. Jn.14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also. The meaning of (taken) has the word (intimate) means a familiar friend, does that sound like a carcass to you? Blessings

Jimbob,

To answer your question about the King James Bible, I believe it is an English translation, just like any other English translation. It is my bible of choice, not that I believe it is a perfect translation, but I believe it is the best English translation there is. I also believe that there are other good translations out there.

From your posts in the past, I perceive that you are "KJV only." I could be mistaken on that though. But the KJV is not a perfect translation. I believe it's the best translation, but it is not a perfect translation. When I study the King James side by side with the Textus Receptus (NT only/Septuagint for the OT), I find many things that the English bible says which differs from what the Greek text is saying. And like I said, English is a very general language. Many words in English can have multiple meanings which is why we have so many disagreements as to what the English text is saying.

It's also the reason why we have so many different denominations out there. People cannot agree on what the English bible is saying. But not so with the Greek. Greek is such an exact language. It's very difficult to come up with multiple meanings on what the Greek text is saying, unlike English. Most of us read the King James, but again, it is written in English which is a very general language. The same goes for Hebrew. Hebrew is also a general language.



Yes, God did promise to preserve His Word forever, but the King James didn't exist before 1611. How was His word preserved before the King James Bible came along?

Jesse The verse says "Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them (FROM THIS GENERATION) for ever. (God tells us in this verse ((from this generation)) for ever. With your reply and the question you asked Jesse it almost sounds like you don't believe Gods promise to preserve His Word for ever was kept? Do you? If you do believe God kept His Word, WHERE IS IT TODAY? ( Ps.12:6 ) The words of the LORD are (pure) words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. The word (pure) is #2889; it means pure (in a chemical, ceremonial, or moral sense) sound, clear, ((unadulterated)), ((uncontaminated)), innocent or holy. God did keep that promise in the KJB! A (time) in the Bible is 1 year, ( Rev.12:14 ) ( Dan.7:25 ) Ps.12:6 tells us Gods Word was tried in a furnace of earth, purified (seven) times. (That would be 7 years) The KJB took 7 years to complete its translation! Every Word of God is pure, How did God get His Word preserved into the KJB you might ask? The answer is in ( 2.Peter1:19-21 ) Here's another proof its pure, and not corrupted. ( Jer.23:36 ) And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every mans word shall be his burden; for ye have (perverted) ((the words of the living God)), of the LORD of hosts our God. The word (perverted) is #2015; it means to turn about or over, by implying to change, overturn, pervert, change, perverse. (God said this of pastors who destroy and scatter His sheep, and false prophets, the word (perverted) means to change. God said ye have changed the words of the living God, ALL modern version Bibles have changed the Words of the living God!) There is much more that proves the KJB is the pure preserved Word of God. Jesse, I noticed you completely ignored my comment on the (body) that was (taken) in ( Lu.17:37 ) being those "safe," the saved or delivered ones whom Jesus received unto himself. Thats just another one of them holes in that theory. But this one is a BIG hole! Thank you Jesse.

(Part-1):

Hello Jimbob,

To answer your first question, I have gone back and read through Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with Verse 1. The first thing I am looking for is who Jesus is speaking to. It tells us in Verse 1 that Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple grounds when the disciples (Peter, James, John, & Andrew) came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. Jesus gives them the prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD.

In Verse 3, these same four disciples probed Jesus with three questions: When shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Now from this point in Verse 3 on to the end of Chapter 24, Jesus gives these four disciples the answers to their three questions. I am trying to find reference to the church with what Jesus is saying, mainly in response to your question on who the ones taken are referring to, but I just cannot see this as being the church.



Jesus begins answering their three questions in Verse 4. He begins by talking about the pains of birth ( Matthew 24:4-14), and then Matthew 24:15 is the pivotal point. Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in Daniel ( Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11). And then we see the perils of tribulation ( Matthew 24:16-28). And the finally, the promise of Jesus' coming in Matthew 24:29-31.

As you probably already have figured out by now, I believe the church is gone already, so no, I do not see Matthew 24:40-41 talking about church members being taken, nor do I see those two verses referring to the rapture of the church. I believe the ones taken are taken into judgment. They are taken to fight against Christ when He returns at His second coming. My reason for believing this comes from Joel 3:1-2, and Zechariah 14:2. From what I see, it is God who gathers these people (the ones taken) into the Valley of Megiddo to face judgement.

Dear Jesse, Jesus speaks of His elect. And Paul speaks again and again that believers are His elect. I think it is a big mistake to ascribe Jesus' words to His disciples who were to bring the gospel message not only to Jerusalem, Samaria, but to the ends of the earth as being spoken only to and for Jews because you assume that the church will be gone due to rapture. Saints are spoken of again and again in Revelation, and saints are those who believe in Jesus, whether Jews of Gentiles.

(Part 3):

GiGi,

During the tribulation period, people are going to have to make a decision. Do they heed to the voice of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, the angel flying in mid-heaven who reaches the entire world, warning them not to receive the mark, and the two witnesses? It's going to be a tough choice to make. Do they surrender their life to Christ even though it will cost their life life by being beheaded, or do they take the mark of the beast and forfeit any hope for salvation?

GiGi, I hope I have not become your enemy because I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? There are things non-rapture related that you have stated in the past that I find no scriptural proof of, but I choose to leave it alone because it has no impact on a believer's salvation. Whether one believes in pre/mid/or post rapture, that belief will not cost them their salvation!

The bottom line is we do agree that there will be a rapture. We just don't agree on the timing. I truly mean this when I say that I have absolutely no issue with you or anyone else who believes that they will be here during the tribulation period. For myself, there are too many questions that need to be answered for me to change my belief.

We know this question will come up again. It seems to be a very popular question. But the question is, how do we approach it? How do we respond? Do we (everyone who wishes to answer) share our understanding, even though our understanding might conflict with someone else's, and then let the person who asked the question search the scriptures for themselves to see if what we are saying is true (Which is what they should be doing anyway), or, do we wait to see whose responses differs from ours, and then spend weeks arguing amongst each other on the matter?

It is my conviction that what we share here with others, they have a responsibility to search the scripture for themselves to see if what we are giving them is true.



May the Lord continue to bless you and your family!

Oh Jesse, we are not enemies.

I have been challenged by S. Spencer to speak my views using Scriptures. So I have done that. I do not see these discussions are arguing nor being pointless. We do need to speak as clearly as we are able to things that are of importance. And eschatology seems to be a very popular topic on here (more than it needs to be, in my opinion, but important anyway). I don't think there is anything wrong with responding to another's post in disagreement. People have done that to me plenty of times and I don't mind. But this topic seems to be very sensitive to some who post regularly here and so just don't like what I say in disagreement.

Jesse, I do not wish to speak to the first part of your post because I think it will be fruitless to do so. I think we have plenty that we agree on. I do think like you that it is each person's responsibility to check what people say on here with Scripture. I don't think a one needs to post Scripture with every response. People can look up a topic to find Scriptures that speak to it. But on the other hand I do think it is good and helpful to include Scripture when presenting one's viewpoint.

And yes, people interpret Scriptures in many differing ways. But how can that be if the Holy Spirit supposedly is going to teach us all things without the help of others, as some repeatedly say on here. I know that people who have different interpretations cannot both be correct. I wish there could be harmony and unity of belief in the Church today. But we are far past that.

God will sift each of us in the time he allots to do so. May we all not be hard=hearted and stiff=necked when He brings this sifting to us.

Have a good evening. I always appreciate your posts. Thanks for your contribution.

(Part 2):

GiGi,

Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." There are churches out there that say that Jesus would have come by now had the church been doing its job, because once the whole world is reached for Christ, then He is going to come. I've heard people actually say this.

But during the tribulation, there will not be a need for the church to be out spreading the gospel message. If I remember correctly, I believe in one of your posts you had mentioned to someone that if the church is gone during the tribulation, how are people going to be reached with the gospel message? Those were not your exact words but something of that sort.

Well, in the book of Revelation, it tells us how the world is going to be reached. It tells us that there will be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, that are sealed by God so that they cannot be killed. No one can harm them. They are Jewish believers, and I believe that they will be evangelists during the tribulation period, 144,000 of them.

Secondly, there will be an angel flying in mid-heaven, according to Revelation Chapter 14:6-7. It says that there will be an angel flying in mid-heaven for 3 years. And Revelation 14:6 tells us that he reaches every single person on the earth with the gospel, everybody!

And then in Revelation 11:3-13, there are two witnesses that are witnessing in the streets of Jerusalem, and the whole world sees them. Our technology today makes that possible. So, everyone will be reached before His second coming. God Himself will fulfill that promise.

Lord willing, I will finish this up with one more post, I promise!

Hello GiGi,

You have completely misrepresented my words. If you are referring to what Jesus said in Acts 1:8, then yes, I agree, it would be a big mistake on my part to believe that we as believers do not have a responsibility to represent Christ throughout the world. What I said had nothing to do with that. And I am not saying that we as believers do not have a responsibility to be witnesses of Jesus Christ.

In Acts 1:8, Jesus says you are going to receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. There's a difference in texts when He says you shall be witnesses unto me. Some manuscripts say of me, the Genitive Case. He says you'll be my witnesses, not witnesses for me. But either one that you use, it is interesting that it is presented as fact. It doesn't say that when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you ought to be, or you should be. He says you will be my witnesses.

That's because at the end of John Chapters 14 and 16, He says when the Holy Spirit comes, He will testify of me. It is the Holy Spirit in every believer that testifies to Christ through the believer. We don't testify. We don't ever bring anybody to Christ. It's the Holy Spirit through us. So, you will be my witnesses, factual statement!

And you are also correct in saying that "Saints are spoken of again and again in Revelation, and saints are those who believe in Jesus, whether Jews of Gentiles." I have never once said that there will not be any saints during the tribulation period. The book of Revelation speaks of many who will be saved during the tribulation. Those who are saved during the tribulation will become saints, but it will cost them their lives.

Need more space, will continue...

S Spencer Thanks again for your response. This one doesn't take very much to prove you are taking these verses out of context Spencer. A look at the Original meaning of the word (taken) will do that. Mt.24:40-41 Tell us "one shall be taken, and the other left" The word (taken) is #3880; it means to receive near, associate with oneself (in a familiar act or relation) to assume an office, to learn, receive, take, (unto, with) In Jn.14:3 Jesus tells us "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also. Jesus comes to (receive) us unto himself, that would be the one taken! Those left on the earth will face the wrath of God for not believing in His Son Jesus Christ. The elect in Mt.Ch.24 are the ones raptured, or taken out before the wrath of God is poured out on the disobedient ones left on the earth to face Gods wrath. The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. In Jn.3:36 Jesus tells us "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (If we believe on the Son we will be taken, delivered, or rescued from the wrath to come.) Just to add a little to this, the word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble. (We will feel pressure, anguish, be burdened, suffer persecution, be troubled, But not face the wrath of God) The words (tribulation) and (wrath) are not the same, the meaning of the words in the Original language should be enough to prove that. And by the way Spencer I dont believe in Post-trib! I believe its Post-trib, and Pre-wrath. We go through great tribulation, but we will not face the wrath of God. Thank you again Spencer, there is nothing like being in the Word of God today, The Word of God Is Alive! God Bless you.