Bible Discussion Thread

GiGi,

I am not at all familiar with history of Dispensationalism. But what I know of its teachings and from what I read in comments here of those that hold that position, I am quite convinced, as you are, that it is contrary in many ways, especially regarding the future of National Israel and the events of the end times, to what God declares in the Bible .

The divergent views that I read hear regarding the end times and some other doctrines are, I believe, in large part due to a failure to interpret scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible itself. And instead to a high degree, substitute man's wisdom which will ultimately lead us further away from the truth.

May God in His Mercy open all of our eyes to His Truth as we continue to prayerfully compare spiritual things with spiritual.

David,

Pt. 3

And it seems that some on this forum disapprove and criticize that I have researched a movement that isn't found in the Bible, but in recent church history. Why would they do this? Perhaps because one who investigates theories and belief systems may be able to shed some light on this theory that they do not wish to be exposed or maybe they are concerned that posting information from honest investigation may lead some away from dispensationalism. But I don't know really the reason I get so much negative remarks from some on here.

I do not criticize how others learn on here, but I do speak to what people do say with my responses. I do think that some may be taken aback by some of us, like you, me, Jimbob, who strongly disagree with dispensational tenets and also strongly hold to our post-Trib coming of Jesus. It seems that maybe they feel that their strong adherence to their beliefs from dispensationalism should just be accepted at face value and not be challenged. I think the cloth cuts both ways and those of us who step up to post should be willing to have their IDEA challenged w/o degrading opponents character, spiritual walk or maturity.

But I know that these topics are ones that dispensationalists feel very sensitive about. This is why I have not responded every time eschatology is presented on this forum. But I do post at times just to show that there are other viewpoints that contradict the dispensational viewpoint and to support others like you and Jimbob. I am pretty tough and can take criticism, but I will speak up when I think some critical statements are unfair or out of line.

Keep us the good work of taking every thought captive to the word of God, as I do, an many others on here do, too. It is so important to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to develop in each of us the mind of Christ . By doing so, we will know that truth that is only in Him and rightly interpret Scripture and have the freedom to search for better understanding.

David

cont.

-Jesus will reign during the millennium on the physical throne of David in Jerusalem as Israel is the top nation in the world

-Israel and millennium saints will be resurrected at the end of the millenium

-there will be mortal people living on the earth during the millennium who will procreate, live a long life, and die.

-Jesus came initially for the Jews, not for the Gentiles (some believe this ) so the Gospels are not "to" Gentile believers as far as applying directly to our lives

-There are unfulfilled promises God made to the Israelites concerning possessing all the lands promised

-God will fulfill these outstanding promises in the millennium

-Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the other apostles were only for the Jews (some believe this)

-the to was applied to Israel only, not to Gentile believers (some believe this).

-only the Epistles of Paul apply to directly to Gentile believers (some believe this)

-other epistles and the Gospels are directed to the Jews only, so they do not apply to us Gentile believers (some believe this)

-that dispensational applications to Bible interpretation are the true way to "rightly divide the Scripture" (some believe this)

I know that there are probably many more beliefs peculiar to dispensationalist, but these are the ones I have read represented on this forum.

I am hard pressed to find firm biblical support for any of these tenets of dispensationalism. To me, they are all pre-conceived assumptions and speculation superimposed onto the Scriptures . This system uses selective Scripture verses that are twisted and added to to fit their belief system, not having the Scripture form one's beliefs first and foremost.

So, since I have just recently learned of these beliefs, I have endeavored to learn more about them, how they came to be, through whom they were promulgated, what was the background of these promulgators, how they were disseminated and reinforced over time, etc.

cont.

David, Amen to that. We want to have the mind of Christ concerning our approach to Scripture interpretation and end times beliefs. When I read in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what Jesus said about His second coming when asked by His disciples, He never once spoke of a pre-trib rapture. If this was true, He would have reassured the disciples that they would be rescued by Him prior to the Tribulation that was sure to come at the end of time. But He did not. He said repeatedly that those who endure to the end will be saved.

I, too, only knew of the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I heard in my early 20's). It seemed a possibility then, but the more I read on the end times I soon came to reject this teaching because I could not find it mentioned of supported in Scripture anywhere. And from there, I believed what Jesus said in the Gospels concerning His return.

It wasn't until I came on this site a year or so ago that I was exposed to dispensationalism that ingterpreted that:

- the 70th weeks of Daniel was not fulfilled and is to be fulfilled during the 7 year tribulation.

-that God put a "pause" in the prophetic clock at the 69th week

-that Jesus offered the earthly kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it and HIm

-therefore, God went to plan B: Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection to save both Jews and Gentiles who believe

-the church age is part of plan B

- there is a distinction between Israel and the church and it needs to remain so as a separation for the rest of history

-the church will be raptured pre-tribulation (resurrected NT saints and Christian believers only)

-the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth with the rapture of the Church

-the Tribulation begins the prophetic clock again for the 70th week to be fulfilled

-the Tribulation saints will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation

-Israel will be the predominant nation in the world with renewal of the sacrificial system and all peoples will live by the OT

No No... Gi -Gi...love ya But Remember Jesus said that there will only be 1 shepherd and 1 sheepfold not 2.... John 10:17....Remember Jesus told ic.a jew he had to be bornagin....Christ has to be born in us Jew or gentile...Thats y he always refers to himself as the son of man.... 1 Cor. 12:13....By 1 spirit are we all baptised into the body of Christ... Jew or Gentile,..Bond or Free...male or female.

Thou will not leave my soul in hell nor suffer thy holy 1 to see corruption....But Peter said this is just prophetic of Christ

GiGi,

Thanks for responding. From a big picture perspective the true gospel is not about the political nations of the world in any sense. Although God is certainly concerned about everything that happens on this planet, and that includes the political nations. But not in respect to the gospel. The gospel is concerned about the spiritual warfare that exists between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. And that is a spiritual warfare, and has nothing to do with political nations.

That said, the Nation of Israel was God's corporate representation of His kingdom during the Old Testament time beginning with Abraham. Just like the New Testament church was the corporate representation of God's kingdom during the church age.

Unfortunately, some want to make the gospel, a social gospel, or a political gospel.

The true gospel is the declaration of our terrible condition and situation before God, because of our sin and rebellion. And the incomprehensible mercy of God, at tremendous cost to himself, of providing a solution and unimaginably blessed inheritance for those whom He saves.