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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 213105
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit. nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Here the topic of this chapter is said in the first verse: concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints to Him.
This is the emphasis of this chapter.
Verse 2 warns the Thessalonians to not be disturbed by those who say that Jesus return is imminent (at hand). This does speak against those who teach that Jesus could come anytime.
Vs. 3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Lord's return) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
Paul is saying that Jesus will not return for the saints until these two things occur, so this chapter is not speaking of a pre-trib rapture.
Vs.4-5
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things."
So we are told to not be deceived by anyone who would say that Jesus returns prior to a great apostasy AND the son of perdition exalting himself in the place of God in the temple. Paul says that he already instructed these people concerning these aspects of Jesus' return.
Vs. 6-7
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be reveaked in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already workl only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
Since the main topic of this chapter is the return of Christ. Perhaps these verses are speaking of what restrains the appearing of Jesus and His return. Sicne the Greek translated mean "until he is manifested or arises amidst, or is revealed
Dear GiGi, what you read and what you write is absolutely correct. Because of different opinions about this, people are also left to themselves and thrown out of congregations. Some ppl sincerely believe that they will be lifted up into the cloud. Yes, it will happen if they live through the great tribulation and still live in faith. The day Jesus returns. And there will be hard times, evil times where the Christians will be persecuted. We have lived like this for a long time already, ever since Jesus was taken up to God and now sits at the hand of the Majesty.
Today I read some serious words from Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter where he describes the day of the Lord and it is so great. We who see this must pray for all people mostly for God's house and pray for Peace for Jesusalem. That this is our great need.
May God Himself, through the kingdom of the Holy Spirit, bless us all with the spirit of prayer and invocation so that we constantly do the Lord's will, by and by praying for all people. Now there is a difference in here on the web and all who pray daily in a way. Because this is where prayer topics come from people who see their impossible situation. May Jesus Christ make peace for us all. While our hearts sigh and long for Jesus' return, Amen. Stay strong and be happy always. Love u in Christ.
It's important that each person examines themselves to see if they are truly of the faith that the apostles wrote about and that we believe and obey what is taught in the word. Holding on to tenets that conflict with what is plainly taught in the Word is being disobedient to the Word of God. We should take this seriously. And trying to circumvent what is plainly taught with ideas that can only come by inferences that must be read into the Scriptures due to our wanting some tenet to be true is trying to subvert the Scriptures to comply with one's own ideas, not submitting to what is plainly written.
My heart goes out to any and all who have been hoodwinked by doctrine that does not align with Scripture. I can be so hoodwinked, too, so I need to watch my doctrine carefully, too, and submit to what God openly reveals in Scripture.
And yes, we are to be diligent in prayer for all that God lays on our hearts to intercede for, especially those who post their requests here expecting to find hope and answers to their prayer requests from God who calls us to bring all of our needs to Him and for us to pray for one another.
I am convinced that if I am alive when these two events occur stated in 2 Thessalonians before Jesus returns, then I want to be stronger in my faith and be willing to be persecuted and killed for my faith, as it is the intent of the Anti-Christ to "war against the saints." I want to endure to the end in faith. I want to use the time I would have during the time I am alive in the Tribulations to turn unbelievers to Jesus by presenting the Gospel and pointing our the deception of the Anti-Christ. If believers are removed pre-Trib. who will help those who are lost find about about Jesus? We should desire and pray to have the boldness and "whatever it cost me" attitude of Paul and the apostles to bring Jesus to the lost through trials, persecution and even death in order that some may be saved.
But back to this chapter. I will reiterate that the main topic of this section is the return of Christ, not the emergence of the Anti-Christ. If we keep our thought an that aspect of the context of this section we can come to a clearer knowledge of the truth of Paul's teaching and come to admit that it does not teach the Pre-Trib rapture of the church. Which I think is a terrible heresy birthed by Satan to deceive the church into error and complacency.
I am not meaning to offend anyone who holds to the pre-trib view. But i just do not see it in this section of Scripture, as many Pre-Tribbers believe. Please be open to consider that one's view may be dangerously wrong. I regularly check my beliefs against Scripture to see for sure if I am being true to Scripture. I may still be wrong on some things. I am humble enough to think that. I hope others will be humble enough to rethink their view of Pre-Trib rapture against Scripture as well.
So we should definitely be prayerful asking for stronger faith and the will to stand in the day of trouble. I read a good article from Corrie Ten Boom (from the 70's) about believing that God will help us do this. She was living proof of this as she survived captivity in a concentration camp under Hitler.
She was a believer who hid Jews, was captured along with her sister, and put in the camp.
She recalls the stacks of dead bodies that accumulated daily in the camp. Her sister was one of them. But her faith stood in the time of trouble.
She also spoke of traveling around the world meeting up with Christians in places like China and Africa where thousands and thousands of Christians were routinely martyred by the Chinese government of the time and in African countries. This happened all over the world and still continues.
Those of us in western countries have had it pretty good in comparison. But the time may come that we, too, may be the ones martyred or held in captivity. We should be preparing ourselves for such a time, memorizing the Scriptures because we may no longer have our Bibles with us, being faithful in prayer, and be aware of what is happening in world events.
It is not pleasant to think about these things and the temptation to desire an easy way out (such as the pre-trib rapture) can therefore be persuasive. But Scripture refutes this theory, and therefore it is false and dangerous.
Rather than "until he be taken out of the way" So it seems that the return of Christ is being restrained until these two events occur. We are not old whom the "he" is, and so perhaps it is not for us to actually know. But I can say that it is not the church or the Holy Spirit being removed because the chapter says that the church will be gathered upon Christ's return after the son of perdition rises up.
Vs. 8
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming."
The return of the Lord is not to rapture the church here, but to destroy the son of perdition, the Wicked.
Vs. 9-10
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
So, if the pre-trib rapture is a lie, then it is of Satan and heresy. Gal. 5-19-21 lists heresy among the many sinful actions that will keep one out of the Kingdom of God. This is very sobering to consider.
Vs. 11-12
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion. that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
So God allows those who prefer a heresy to the revealed truth of the Word to be deluded unto damnation.
Because of what Jesus says about his coming in the Gospels of matt. Mk. Lk. and in John says the resurrection is on the "Last Day" I believe what is expressly spoken by our Lord. To believe the inferred teaching of the pre-trib reapture to me is standin on shaky ground, even serious error or heresy because the Scriptures do not actually saying anything outright to support this doctrine.
For me, I am understanding that believers WILL go through the Tribulation when the son of perdition becomes known end employs his plan....
Has been a minute, and my understanding is the pre-trib rapture is not supported by scripture. I have not found any verse that says we go or are taken to heaven. If those who are living when it starts and are looking to be taken to heaven, will they be prepared? Will they be able to face the temptation that is coming? (Take the mark or die?) Rev. 3:10 to keep thee from, does that mean taken away and not have to face it?
Or to keep, the Greek word tre means to guard, observe, watch over, attend to carefully, to keep, one in the state in which he is. The temptation which the meaning is more of a trial as in 1 Peter 4:12-13 same Greek word peirasmos. If we are here, He will give us strength and we can stand on what Jesus said; "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Just a thought on what you said in one of your posts (the Gospels of matt. Mk. Lk. and in John says the resurrection is on the "Last Day")
I do not know your understanding of the last day, or if you believe in a literal 1000-year reign on earth that starts with the return of Jesus and the first resurrection, Rev. 20:4-6. Some understand the first resurrection as all the saved and the white throne judgment for the unsaved lost.
My understanding of the scriptures is they do not line up with, all the saved being resurrected first, and the white throne is for all the lost. I know some things have not been revealed. I have studied this and have an understanding of it but just wondering if you have any thoughts on it.
Been thinking on it all day.
In reading verses 1-4
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit. nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Here the topic of this chapter is said in the first verse: concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints to Him.
This is the emphasis of this chapter.
Verse 2 warns the Thessalonians to not be disturbed by those who say that Jesus return is imminent (at hand). This does speak against those who teach that Jesus could come anytime.
Vs. 3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Lord's return) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
Paul is saying that Jesus will not return for the saints until these two things occur, so this chapter is not speaking of a pre-trib rapture.
Vs.4-5
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things."
So we are told to not be deceived by anyone who would say that Jesus returns prior to a great apostasy AND the son of perdition exalting himself in the place of God in the temple. Paul says that he already instructed these people concerning these aspects of Jesus' return.
Vs. 6-7
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be reveaked in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already workl only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
Since the main topic of this chapter is the return of Christ. Perhaps these verses are speaking of what restrains the appearing of Jesus and His return. Sicne the Greek translated mean "until he is manifested or arises amidst, or is revealed
Today I read some serious words from Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter where he describes the day of the Lord and it is so great. We who see this must pray for all people mostly for God's house and pray for Peace for Jesusalem. That this is our great need.
May God Himself, through the kingdom of the Holy Spirit, bless us all with the spirit of prayer and invocation so that we constantly do the Lord's will, by and by praying for all people. Now there is a difference in here on the web and all who pray daily in a way. Because this is where prayer topics come from people who see their impossible situation. May Jesus Christ make peace for us all. While our hearts sigh and long for Jesus' return, Amen. Stay strong and be happy always. Love u in Christ.
It's important that each person examines themselves to see if they are truly of the faith that the apostles wrote about and that we believe and obey what is taught in the word. Holding on to tenets that conflict with what is plainly taught in the Word is being disobedient to the Word of God. We should take this seriously. And trying to circumvent what is plainly taught with ideas that can only come by inferences that must be read into the Scriptures due to our wanting some tenet to be true is trying to subvert the Scriptures to comply with one's own ideas, not submitting to what is plainly written.
My heart goes out to any and all who have been hoodwinked by doctrine that does not align with Scripture. I can be so hoodwinked, too, so I need to watch my doctrine carefully, too, and submit to what God openly reveals in Scripture.
And yes, we are to be diligent in prayer for all that God lays on our hearts to intercede for, especially those who post their requests here expecting to find hope and answers to their prayer requests from God who calls us to bring all of our needs to Him and for us to pray for one another.
Pt. 3
I am convinced that if I am alive when these two events occur stated in 2 Thessalonians before Jesus returns, then I want to be stronger in my faith and be willing to be persecuted and killed for my faith, as it is the intent of the Anti-Christ to "war against the saints." I want to endure to the end in faith. I want to use the time I would have during the time I am alive in the Tribulations to turn unbelievers to Jesus by presenting the Gospel and pointing our the deception of the Anti-Christ. If believers are removed pre-Trib. who will help those who are lost find about about Jesus? We should desire and pray to have the boldness and "whatever it cost me" attitude of Paul and the apostles to bring Jesus to the lost through trials, persecution and even death in order that some may be saved.
But back to this chapter. I will reiterate that the main topic of this section is the return of Christ, not the emergence of the Anti-Christ. If we keep our thought an that aspect of the context of this section we can come to a clearer knowledge of the truth of Paul's teaching and come to admit that it does not teach the Pre-Trib rapture of the church. Which I think is a terrible heresy birthed by Satan to deceive the church into error and complacency.
I am not meaning to offend anyone who holds to the pre-trib view. But i just do not see it in this section of Scripture, as many Pre-Tribbers believe. Please be open to consider that one's view may be dangerously wrong. I regularly check my beliefs against Scripture to see for sure if I am being true to Scripture. I may still be wrong on some things. I am humble enough to think that. I hope others will be humble enough to rethink their view of Pre-Trib rapture against Scripture as well.
Yes I do, too.
So we should definitely be prayerful asking for stronger faith and the will to stand in the day of trouble. I read a good article from Corrie Ten Boom (from the 70's) about believing that God will help us do this. She was living proof of this as she survived captivity in a concentration camp under Hitler.
She was a believer who hid Jews, was captured along with her sister, and put in the camp.
She recalls the stacks of dead bodies that accumulated daily in the camp. Her sister was one of them. But her faith stood in the time of trouble.
She also spoke of traveling around the world meeting up with Christians in places like China and Africa where thousands and thousands of Christians were routinely martyred by the Chinese government of the time and in African countries. This happened all over the world and still continues.
Those of us in western countries have had it pretty good in comparison. But the time may come that we, too, may be the ones martyred or held in captivity. We should be preparing ourselves for such a time, memorizing the Scriptures because we may no longer have our Bibles with us, being faithful in prayer, and be aware of what is happening in world events.
It is not pleasant to think about these things and the temptation to desire an easy way out (such as the pre-trib rapture) can therefore be persuasive. But Scripture refutes this theory, and therefore it is false and dangerous.
continued.
Rather than "until he be taken out of the way" So it seems that the return of Christ is being restrained until these two events occur. We are not old whom the "he" is, and so perhaps it is not for us to actually know. But I can say that it is not the church or the Holy Spirit being removed because the chapter says that the church will be gathered upon Christ's return after the son of perdition rises up.
Vs. 8
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming."
The return of the Lord is not to rapture the church here, but to destroy the son of perdition, the Wicked.
Vs. 9-10
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
So, if the pre-trib rapture is a lie, then it is of Satan and heresy. Gal. 5-19-21 lists heresy among the many sinful actions that will keep one out of the Kingdom of God. This is very sobering to consider.
Vs. 11-12
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion. that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
So God allows those who prefer a heresy to the revealed truth of the Word to be deluded unto damnation.
Because of what Jesus says about his coming in the Gospels of matt. Mk. Lk. and in John says the resurrection is on the "Last Day" I believe what is expressly spoken by our Lord. To believe the inferred teaching of the pre-trib reapture to me is standin on shaky ground, even serious error or heresy because the Scriptures do not actually saying anything outright to support this doctrine.
For me, I am understanding that believers WILL go through the Tribulation when the son of perdition becomes known end employs his plan....
Has been a minute, and my understanding is the pre-trib rapture is not supported by scripture. I have not found any verse that says we go or are taken to heaven. If those who are living when it starts and are looking to be taken to heaven, will they be prepared? Will they be able to face the temptation that is coming? (Take the mark or die?) Rev. 3:10 to keep thee from, does that mean taken away and not have to face it?
Or to keep, the Greek word tre means to guard, observe, watch over, attend to carefully, to keep, one in the state in which he is. The temptation which the meaning is more of a trial as in 1 Peter 4:12-13 same Greek word peirasmos. If we are here, He will give us strength and we can stand on what Jesus said; "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Just a thought on what you said in one of your posts (the Gospels of matt. Mk. Lk. and in John says the resurrection is on the "Last Day")
I do not know your understanding of the last day, or if you believe in a literal 1000-year reign on earth that starts with the return of Jesus and the first resurrection, Rev. 20:4-6. Some understand the first resurrection as all the saved and the white throne judgment for the unsaved lost.
My understanding of the scriptures is they do not line up with, all the saved being resurrected first, and the white throne is for all the lost. I know some things have not been revealed. I have studied this and have an understanding of it but just wondering if you have any thoughts on it.
God bless,
RLW
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