King James Bible
King James Version (KJV)
Bible Discussion Thread
Viewing page: 1 of 2
1 2
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
I have been thinking today about our dialog on how we each approach and interpret the Bible. I think I've been clear regarding what I believe to be the Biblical approach and have provide some scriptural basis for that belief. So I won't take time to reiterate that here.
I suspect based on our dialog and other comments you have made that you embrace the Dispensational view of the Bible. If I'm incorrect, the rest of what I say here may not apply.
I read what GIGI posted regarding the various tenants of Dispensationalism and I find most of them at first blush unsupportable from the Bible and contrary what God Himself declares as to how we are to approach the Bible.
The idea that God has written certain parts of the Bible to be applicable for certain segments of mankind and not for others, I believe, has the effect of diminishing the authority of the Bible for Mankind in general, and is a view that I could not hold. The Old Testament is equally important for Jews and Gentiles today just as is the New Testament. And each part of the Bible needs to be applied in interpreting every other part of the Bible with that understanding in view.
I know you are familiar with Rev 22:18,19 where God sets very sever penalties for adding to or taking away from the Bible. And I suspect you would agree that recognizing any extra-Biblical writing or proclamation as the Word of God itself and therefore of equal authority as the Bible would be a violation of Rev 22:18.
However, have you given any thought to how the Dispensational approach to the Bible relates to Rev 22:19. That would be a verse I would seriously consider personally if I were deciding on how to interpret the Bible. And it likely would prevent me from adopting the Dispensational view, if GIGI's research is correct. Food for thought.
I wrote a comment earlier today regarding the Book of Hebrews and would be interested in how you approach that Book and some of the things that you believe it is teaching.
At the outset, I should state that I've never placed myself as a 'dispensationalist'. I do see broad outlines in the whole Word of God of dispensational Truth, but I think that comes naturally from study but not to be emphatic that this is essential for proper Bible teaching - helpful, but not required. But if you believe that from my views expressed here, that I show some ghastly symptoms of being under dispensational dominion, then please, I would like to know it & be corrected. Of Israel & the Church, I see them as separate until the believing Jew is joined together with the believing Gentile into One Body - then "there is no difference" - same applies to all.
Till then, what the Bible declares of Israel in the OT is purely about & for Israel. The Gentiles were never brought under any of God's Commands, Laws, & Sacrifices. The Gentiles were godless idol worshipers, to be destroyed where destruction was necessary, or enslaved as given in the Word. But God had a plan for the Gentiles then (as with Abraham) & leading up to the coming of Jesus. The Cross then "hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" ( Ephesians 2:14-16).
I agree that the OT & NT are equally important to both Jew & Gentile - but to the point you make: I would add, 'how do we interpret the Bible when using OT Scripture with the NT?' And to Revelation 22:19: the addition & subtraction from THIS Book brings on tragic results. The Church's Rapture, as understood by 'pre-tribs', is nowhere to be found after the last message to the Churches in Revelation chapter 3. Does this constitute as being 'dispensationalist'? I don't know.
I do appreciate your taking time to respond to some of my comments. And I also appreciate your candor in explaining your approach to the Bible. The back and forth we have had on how God wants us to view and interpret scripture has been thought provoking and beneficial for me, and I hope for you and others.
I am encouraged to hear that you do not embrace many of the tenants of Dispensationalism. I confess to knowing very little about it; but what I do understand gives me no interest in learning more. I believe its approach to scripture is fundamentally flawed in that it is contrary to the principles of Bible interpretation that God lays down in the Bible itself. And in doing so comes to conclusions that are contrary to what the Bible is teaching regarding God's Plan for Mankind and fundamental doctrines of Salvation and Judgement.
Ultimately it is God Himself that must open our spiritual eyes to understanding from the Bible as we humbly and prayerfully read and study His Word. Always mindful that the BIBLE ALONE and in its ENTIRITY is the WORD of GOD and must be our final authority for Truth.
In saying that, I need to be speaking first and foremost to myself. And only then to others.
In broad terms, a dispensationalist believes in a literal understanding of Scripture (e.g. the 1000 years of Christ's rule being literal; Hell & the Lake of Fire being literal, etc.); that Israel & the Church are two distinct peoples of God, but of course, only saved & received by God when fully resting on the merits of the Cross; that seven dispensations are seen in the Bible (of Innocence, Conscience, Human Govt, Promise, Law, Grace, & the Millennium Kingdom: I can see this in the Word but wouldn't make it an essential for Bible knowledge or study); and lastly (but by no means without other aspects of this position not mentioned here), dispensationalists tend to be pre-millennial, pre-tribulational in their understanding of the Bible. I guess, on those grounds, it must make me a dispensationalist as well, though I'm sure from a more detailed study of this position, I might have contrary beliefs to aspects of it.
Many people sit under pastors and teachers who espouse dispensational interpretations and tach dispensational beliefs without saying that is what they are doing.
I learned of this many years ago, & also from the material presented by Clarence Larkin. As I mentioned to bro Jesse, I wouldn't teach this as a matter of study to mature believers, as most of us already appreciate how God has worked in the World & in many lives from the time of Adam to the formation & maturing of His Church. But certainly, this would be somewhat helpful to new believers who are trying to make some sense of the structure of this ginormous book in their hands & to appreciate seeing God's Hand at work to bring man from a state of absolute innocence & purity, then succumb to a mighty fall, onto a state of experiencing & living under God's Grace.
How this dispensational teaching is then revealed in pastoral teaching, or its effects, I can't say, since in my own case, I will tend to listen, analyse, query, etc. the speaker on what he shares in the present rather than what might be his underlying beliefs on biblical structure. I hope that answers your questions. And btw, I will be away on vacation for the next three weeks & will be offline for most of it, but will reply to any comments referred to me, on my return. Blessings.
Here's an article by Chuck Missler on Dispensationalism.
Without attaching the name Dispensationalism there's no doubt of its truths disclosed in the Bible.
Part 1.
It is possible that you are a dispensationalist and don't know it. If you're like me, I've been taught the essentials of dispensationalism all my life without knowing exactly what the term itself meant. Hopefully, by the end of this discussion you will have a better understanding of dispensationalism, and you may be able to determine if you are a dispensationalist.
What is a Dispensation?
The central idea of the word dispensation is that of managing or administering the affairs of a household.1 A dispensation is NOT a time period. If things stayed the same and never changed, it would never have been associated with a time period. However, since throughout time, circumstances have changed, and therefore, God's instructions have changed, so then a particular dispensation becomes associated with a particular period of time.
The number of dispensations and how they are divided up varies, but a common division is as follows:
1. The dispensation of Innocence. A dispensation that was in effect from the creation to the Fall.
2. The dispensation of Conscience. A dispensation that was in effect from the Fall until Noah.
3. The dispensation of Civil Government. A dispensation that was in effect from Noah until Abraham.
4. The dispensation of Promise or Patriarchal Rule. A dispensation that was in effect from Abraham until the giving of the Law.
5. The dispensation of the Mosaic Law. A dispensation that was in effect from the giving of the Law until the 1st Coming of Christ.
6. The dispensation of Grace. A dispensation that was in effect from the 1st Coming of Christ to the 2nd Coming of Christ.
7. The dispensation of the Millennium. A dispensation that will be in effect from the 2nd Coming of Christ until the beginning of the Eternal Order at the end of the 1,000 years.
See Part 2.
Part 2.
Some dispensations can be divided up into smaller dispensations, and they can be given different names. However, one thing is clear, there are dispensations and they are governed by different over-arching themes.
There is also the matter of "carryovers" during the transition from one dispensation to another. Each dispensation commonly includes:
Certain ordinances that were valid and continue to be valid in the new dispensation. A good example is the command to not eat blood, first given to Noah ( Genesis 9:4), then to Moses ( Leviticus 3:17) and was even carried over into the so-called dispensation of Grace at the Council of Jerusalem ( Acts 15:29).
Other regulations that were valid until then are annulled and do not continue into the new dispensation. An example of this is the freedom to eat any meat, which is actually a reversal back to a previous dispensation where God commanded Noah to eat "every moving thing that liveth" ( Genesis 9:3).
New principles not valid before are introduced in the new dispensation. The Mosaic Law is a dramatic illustration of this. A large portion of the Law introduced new principles.
Promises given in one dispensation are carried over and fulfilled in another dispensation. Many of the promises to the nation of Israel, to Abraham and to David are yet to be fulfilled, but will be fulfilled during the Millennium.
Some things instituted in one dispensation may be elaborated or modified in a later dispensation. An excellent example of this is the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus takes the written laws one step further-not only is it wrong to murder, but if you hate, you have already committed murder in your heart.
See part 3.
Part 4.
2. The distinctness of Israel and the Church (the Ekklesia of Christ) grows out of a consistent, literal hermeneutic. The church is a separate entity (separate from the nation of Israel) and is made up of Jewish and Gentile believers only. God has separate purposes, and separate destinies for Israel and the Church. A consistent literal or plain understanding of Scripture makes these distinctions.
3. The underlying purpose of God in the world-the glory of God. Although salvation is a primary theme of God's purpose in the world which brings glory to Him, it isn't the sole purpose of God in the world. It is only one of many.
In summary: "The essence of dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel and the church. This grows out of the dispensationalist's consistent employment of normal or plain or historical-grammatical interpretation, and it reflects an understanding of the basic purpose of God in all His dealings with mankind as that of glorifying Himself through salvation and other purposes as well.
Additional Defining Characteristics
Another defining characteristic of dispensationalism is the literal fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament covenants.
Taking these at face value using a literal interpretation leads naturally to the literal fulfillment of the promises given in these covenants. Many of the promises included in these covenants are yet to be fulfilled and are part of Eschatology-end time prophecy that has not occurred as yet.
The 1,000-year reign of Christ in the Millennium will be the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. Everything that God promised to Abraham, to David and to Israel through the prophets will be fulfilled during the Millennial period.
Taking prophecy at face value leads naturally to a literal 1,000-year period where the Messiah will come to earth, set up His Kingdom and rule with a rod of iron from the throne of David. This is Premillennialism.
See Part 5.
Where are your Scriptures to back up these tenets?
You'll find Dispensationalism from
Genesis ch 1 - Revelation 22.
It's not a Scripture It's God's plan/program. described by a word.
Here is a portion of what you asked for.
Jeremiah 31:31-37.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of ISRAEL, AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH:
( NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ) in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
SOME APPLY THESE VERSES TO US BECAUSE IT FITS, BUT IT IS REALLY TO ISRAEL.
THAT'S WHY THE ONLY OTHER PLACE IN THE NT WE SEE THIS VERSE IS IN HEBREWS.
Has this been fulfilled in (ISRAEL AND JUDAH) ? NO.
He uses both names here to single out a point.
WILL IT BE ? You bet it will look at verse 36 and 37.
Vs 36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
vs 37. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Continuing.
so he needed to invent more doctrines such as multiple resurrections of the saints in order to find agreement in Scriptures. And so on and so on this continued until we today have a very convoluted and unsound theological system all to protect the pre-trib rapture doctrine Darby started with.
I believe Darby to be a false teacher whose system is heretical in many ways. For me, anyone who adheres to dispensational premillennialism follows Darby's doctrines. So, one should find out more about the person whose ideas they have adopted to be sure they are not following a false teacher. One wouldn't follow Joseph Smith who also was pre[trib rapture person, or Charles Taze Russell (JW) or the founder of the Seventh day Adventists. These all emerged at the time of Darby, and Darby and all of the others are false teachers whose doctrines one should not adhere to in any way.
I say all this to warn people to study about this. There is so much that is not right about Darby dispensational premillennialism.
And the Jeremiah passage is true, but it does not say when or how God will do this in history. It does not prove dispensationalism at all, rather covenant theology.
And you also seem t admit that one will not find this theory in the bible because it is extra-biblical. I though you told me that we are not to research or refer to information we get outside of the Bible? You told me that and criticized me for it. But you quote Chuck Missler (a dispensationalist) and you have put up information from J. Vernon McGee (a dispensationalist) and others.
Why is it o.k. for you to bring into this discussions extrabiblical information, but disagree with me even searching for information.
Do you realize how hypocritical this is? I have no problem with you quoting such sources, but you seem to have with me bringing to the discussion information outside of the Bible
You are welcome to respond more, if you like. I don't mind. There is so much more that I can say concerning Darby dispensational premillennialism. But I don't think I will add that info at this time. Maybe another time. Meanwhile, I will continue to study the Scriptures and study more about dispensational premillennialism and what it teachings about eschatology, which seems to be its major focus and purpose for developing such a theory. Mostly to 'promote' the pre-trib secret, silent, imminent rapture doctrine.
Once Darby brough forth this doctrine as new revelation, colleagues found disagreement in Scripture with this doctrine, so then Darby had to add to his theory the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture and then needed tobegin to divide up Scripture into two covenant peoples and then to decide which Scriptures to eliminate for Christians in order to maintain the pre-trib rapture doctrine. Then colleagues pointed out other things in Scripture that defied what he was
I didn't send Chuck Missler article to you, I sent that to Chris in response to him sharing on the 7 Dispensations in scripture.
I didn't throw that at you as a rebuttal aa you do.
What I have been saying all along when you get in these disputes is that you "CAN'T GOOGLE WHAT YOU THINK THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEBELIEVED IN BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES.
You have done this on this site on every doctrine disputed.
I questioned your studying because when you use scripture to validate your belief you come up with errors.
Especially in the old testament and in eschatology.
LET'S GET SOMETHING CLEAR HERE.
You're not on the defense here, We are.
You responded to me and labeled something I said as dispensational ans attacked dispensationalist by saying "You don't like the way they interpret the Bible Especially eschatology. "
I held back for a day and responded, Saying most of your colleagues here on this site falls in that category.
I believe you somewhat apologized.
Then comes Jimbob and David and you went full throttle on us.
I didn't respond to Jimbobs "ORIGINAL" post and still haven't because I didn't know if it was bait to seek and stamp out those who held the pre-trib view.
When I engage with someone's initial post on eschatology, The deity of Christ, or The Sabbath, I ask about their Soteriology views.
Most who have an agenda don't respond.
I also said you have made many errors in your going through the OT and We held back.
I knew a while back you wasn't sound in doctrine a while back When you said Joseph was given the firstborn blessing from Jacob.
And When you said the Menorah had 12 branches. "one for each tribe of Israel'.
I helped you with that through scripture. Not pounce on you.
We will talk later.
God bless.
I will take what you say to heart but not engage further.
Continued.
Ezekiel 36:24-32.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
NOTICE VERSE 32.
Vs 32. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
NOW REWIND A FEW VERSES AND READ Ezekiel 36:21-23.
WAS THIS FULFILLED IN THE NEWTESTAMENT? NO! ISRAEL COMMITTED ABOMINATIONS IN THE OT ON INTO THE NT AND STILL DOING IT TODAY.
WILL GOD FULFILL HIS UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT? YES.
WHEN? IN THE MILLENNIUM!
DID YOU NOTICE THE LOCATION THIS COVENANT WILL BE FULFILLED? EARTH.
( THAT IS DISPENSATIONALISM.)
We take those promises literal.
One of the worst and most dangerous heresies is to call God a liar and subscribe to replacement theology.
Romans 11:25-26. is DISPENSATIONALISM.
God bless.
oops, I meant that Darby said that Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross.
I guess I did add quite a bit more info. But there is so much more!
It is late. I'm off to bed. Talk more tomorrow.
Yes, God will do this for Israel. We do not know exactly when He will do this, perhaps pre-tribulation or earlier or perhaps just after the tribulations starts. We just don't know. But dispensationalist have pigeon holed this into their system in ways that are not explicitly stated in Scripture as to when this will happen.
As far as Ezekiel,
This is a figurative prophecy of God regathering all of Israel (Both houses) by resurrecting them to life when Jesus returns after the Tribulation is over. Or perhaps figuratively re-establishing Israel to the land that they have long been away from and we do not know exactly when that will be (the second option)
S. Spencer, it seems that you have listened to many dispensational teachers and so you are convinced of dispensational premillennialism, but have you every truly studied it: its origins, development in the 1800's, who Darby was like, what he taught. Did you know that said think Jesus atoned for sin on the cross. He said that Christians should not say the Lord's Prayer because it says 'forgive us our trespasses' and believers do not need to confess their sins to God, seek forgiveness and repent. So this is basically antinomianism. He said that the Plymouth Brethren Church in England was the only true church in all of Britain and denounced every denomination as being invalid. Did you know these things about the person whose tenets you follow?
You stated.
Yes, God will do this for Israel. ( We do not know exactly when He will do this, perhaps pre-tribulation or earlier or perhaps just after the tribulations starts. We just don't know. But dispensationalist have pigeon holed this into their system in ways that are not explicitly stated in Scripture as to when this will happen.
You seem to be unsure of your viewpoint but rebuke the dispensational viewpoint.
I said in my earlier posts it's after the tribulation and wrath of the Lord.
Here's one of many reasons why.
We know it's not before the Tribulation because the verses I mentioned.
Ezekiel 36:30. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, THAT YE SHALL RECEIVE NO MORE ( REPROACH ) OF FAMINE AMONG THE HEATHEN.
The Antichrist is going to bring REPROACH
AND AN IDOL! Ezekiel 36:25.
HERE'S WHERE ASSESSMENT GETS CONFUSING.
In your second statement you stated.
"
As far as Ezekiel,
This is a figurative prophecy of God regathering all of Israel (Both houses) by resurrecting them to life when Jesus returns after the Tribulation is over. Or perhaps figuratively re-establishing Israel to the land that they have long been away from...( AND WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THAT WILL BE (the second option.)
Now I know you say the Millennium is in heaven, but your second opinion you suggest the restoration of Israel is after the tribulation here on earth.
Do you separate the restoration of Israel from the Millennium?
Earlier in my replies I stated to you the Millennium is here on earth pointing you to Revelation 20:6-8.
What makes this dispensational is Jeremiah says God is going to do something in a NEW WAY. ( In terms of Knowledge and virteous practice.) Jeremiah 31:33-34.
That's what I believe. .
God bless.
I did reply back to you that I had searched Scripture about the millennium being on earth and I changed my mind and concurred with you.
As to your reply concerning the Scripture you sent to me, we will just have to leave it as such. I do not wish to continue discussing such with you.
Part 3.
In summary: "Dispensationalism views the world as a household run by God. In His household-world, God is dispensing or administering its affairs according to His own will and in various stages of revelation in the passage of time. These various stages mark off the distinguishably different economies in the outworking of His total purpose, and these different economies constitute the dispensation. The under-standing of God's differing economies is essential to a proper interpretation of His revelation within those various economies."2
The Sine Qua Non of Normative/Classical Dispensationalism
According to Dr. Charles Ryrie, there are three Sine Qua Non aspects of dispensationalism-which means they are aspects that are absolutely indispensable or essential to dispensationalism. These are characteristics of what is considered Normative or Classical Dispensationalism.
1. The consistent literal or plain interpretation of Scripture based on the plenary (inerrant) inspiration of the Scriptures using a Historical-Grammatical method of interpretation. The term "literal" is sometimes ironically taken too literally and then made fun of-you don't really believe God has feathers do you? ( Psalm 91:4 ). A better term would be understanding Scripture in the plain or normal meaning as opposed to allegorizing it. This is taking God's word at face value-God says what He means, and means what He says!
A literal interpretation of Scripture isn't solely the domain of dispensationalism, others non-dispensationalist including Covenant Theologians take a large amount of the Scripture literally or plainly, but it is the consistent use of a literal hermeneutic that defines dispensationalism. Not just for historical and doctrinal passages, but for prophetic passages as well. Covenant Theologians allegorize most of prophetic scripture and the promises of the unconditional covenants, especially if it relates to the nation of Israel.
See part 4.
Part 5 of 5.
The Pre-tribulation Rapture is part of the normative dispensational eschatology, although it isn't essential to being a dispensationalist. It is derived from a literal interpretation of Scripture and is based on the distinction between Israel and the Church and the teaching regarding the imminency of the return of the Lord.
Dispensationalist Checklist
Are you a dispensationalist? If you completely agree with the first item on the checklist below, you are a dispensationalist, because everything that follows flows naturally from a con-sistent, literal, plain and normal interpretation of Scripture.
I agree with the three Sine Qua Non of Normative/Classical Dispensationalism:
__ I use a consistent, literal, face-value method of interpretation and understanding the entire Word of God, including prophecy. In other words-"God says what He means, and means what He says," so I can take what He says at face value.
__ I believe there is a distinction between the Nation of Israel and the Church (The Ekklesia of Christ).
__ I believe the underlying purpose of everything is for the Glory of God.
I also agree with most or all of the following:
__ The Premillennial view of the 2nd Coming of Christ, which inaugurates the thousand-year literal reign of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) with a rod of iron on the throne of David.
__ The literal fulfillment of prophecy including eschatology (the fulfillment of prophecies in the end times).
__ The literal fulfillment of the promises in the covenants to the Nation of Israel.
__ The Pre-trib Rapture of the Body of Christ.
End article.
The opposite of dispensationalism is covenantalism.
God bless.
Didn't you say you do not care to discuss Salvation?
I never honestly read the reply and not going to. I only read the first sentence of this post and immediately lost interest. I didn't go no further.
I was thinking it may have been something about salvation.
I m sorry I have read very little of your replies since your initial post unless it was directly to me.
Nothing recently.
After you said you don't won't to talk about salvation I decided to agree to disagree and I hope you can respect that.
God bless.
I'm a slow reader, so I just finished reading through what you shared from Chuck Missler. Thank you so much for that. I now have a better understanding. I used to listen to Chuck Missler every morning on my way to work (0630-0700). That was about 20 years ago. I also listened to Greg Laurie. And on my way home, I would listen to Raul Ries. There was also a program called "To Every Man an Answer." Not sure if that program is still on the radio or not? But Chuck Missler in my opinion is a great teacher!
Thanks again for sharing this!
I've listened to all three of those as well.
I think you referred me to Raul Ries concerning a great testimony I'm not mistaken.
God bless you.
I do recall mentioning Raul Ries a few years ago. His testimony is very powerful. He grew up a violent person involved in gangs. Later in life he ended up getting married and having children but he was an abusive husband.
His wife was a church goer and a believer and tried desperately to get him to go to church with her, but he refused. One day he came home to find his wife and child gone with a note saying that she couldn't take the abuse any longer.
He went out to search for her, but with no luck. He was devastated. He went back home and started to destroy the house and got a shotgun and was going to kill himself.
With the butt of the gun, he went to smash the tv but ended up hitting the power button, and guess what came on? Pastor Greg Laurie! So that must have been the last thing his wife was watching before she left.
Well, he sat there listening for a bit and Greg's message must have been powerful because Raul fell to his knees, wept, and called out and received Christ right there and then.
His wife came back, I'm assuming to pack, and he told her that he had received Christ. She was hesitant to believe him at first, and rightly so!
He went on to start his own ministry which has become successful and has grown over the years. His dad was a full blown non-believer, wanting nothing to do with the Lord.
For many years Raul tried to get his dad to come listen to him in his church, but his dad refused. This sort of broke Raul's heart.
Years went by, and at the end of on of his sermons, he gave an alter call. There was a long line of folks coming forward and unbeknownst to Raul, His dad was in that line.
He didn't even know his dad was there and this was the first time after many years that his dad showed up. I read all this in one of his books titled "Fury to Freedom."
Brother, if you get a chance to find this book at a Christian bookstore, or perhaps online, you won't be disappointed.
God Bless!!!
[Comment Removed]
I listened to Pastor Raul Ries
Autobiography on YouTube.
Awesome testimony.
God bless you.
and can not be found mentioned or taught in Scripture. It is a theological system that emerged in the 1800's not 2000 years ago, so to learn more about it, one does not go to Scripture to learn of it, but to reputable sources online or in the library. I would suggest reading, like I did, from those who adhere to dispensationalism and support it using Scriptural references to check out and also those who refute it, using Scriptural references to do so. This will give it a fair hearing on one's part so that a person can not only learn one side, but have a more comprehensive view based on critical reasoning and facts.
Chris, blessings to you. I hope you have a very good vacation. I just picked my son up from the airport today returning from Singapore and Saudi Arabia trip. And he did admit to my husband that he is a Muslim. I had read more on this and it seems every site I went to speaks that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim, but a muslim man can marry a non-muslim. So, perhaps that is why he 'converted' in order to marry her. So, now I know better how to pray for him. I don't think he would of told us this if we did not ask, but I had read also that only Muslims can enter the city of Mecca. So, I kind of thought that he had bent to the rules of Islam to marry Elfe. Thanks for your prayers. Please continue to pray for each of them. Good news is that her visa is finally passed the first step of processing (13 months since she returned) and has three more steps to go to be able to return here with a green card. We will be happy when she is finally here for 10 years with this card. More opportunity to build relationship and influence her for Christ.
Thanks GiGi for your responses. I'm glad that your son & his wife have returned safely back home; that at least, would have lifted a little concern off your heart. In the official/traditional sense, a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man, though it doesn't have to be the other way around. So maybe, his 'conversion' was simply a nominal agreement to become one, which certainly involved the repeating, with belief, in the 'Shahada" (the public declaration of 'Muslim' faith that all Muslims must adhere to and by doing so, one is considered a Muslim). I won't repeat that declaration here, but I would agree to the first part of it, but certainly not the second - you can check that out on the Web.
Re: Dispensational Truth. I heard about the seven dispensations seen in the Bible, but only saw it in detail in Larkin's book so that I could read more about it. His diagrams were particularly fascinating as he illustrated the biblical epochs related to specific subjects. I was only able to have a brief look at that book as it was borrowed from our Fellowship's library. I wouldn't say that "that education has colored 'my' approach to Scripture since then", since, like yourself, we will always test anything we learn with the Word of God - and this is a MUST. And at least at that basic level of understanding of dispensational truth, I saw absolutely no conflict at all with the Word, just as I would test & then accept a preacher's message or a commentary. I say, 'if it's true to the Word & helpful, then use it'.
Then in regards to that understanding somehow affecting or influencing my belief in the pre-trib rapture, I simply don't see the connection. I, as also brothers S. Spencer, Jesse, & Giannis, & others here have arrived at this position because of what we read in the Word. As I mentioned in previous posts, if certain Scriptures weren't present to help us in this matter, I would certainly hold to a post-trib position, as there is much to support that view. But then I would have to avoid these other Scriptures that show us something more (about the Church's position pre & post tribulation).
Anyway, we have discussed all this at great length, with all the Scriptures presented with yourself & Jimbob, and even with the Scriptures we cited, we still find reason to read & apply them differently; and for me, dispensational truth doesn't affect my reading & understanding of this subject, as I haven't seen that connection. Maybe, you believe that since I've subjected myself to Larkin's diagrams on the Church's position in the World, that these illustrations have planted my belief firmly in the pre-trib camp.
Not at all, and as stated, I consider all what is presented, but unless supported in the Word, it is to be rejected as spurious. Just as someone who denies the Triunity of God: we all read from the same Word, the same verses, but amazingly we can't find agreement on this important doctrine (to some it's clear as black & white; to others, very faint, fuzzy, or even non-existent). We can only then plead the Spirit's Help & guidance to apprehend the Truth. So thanks again GiGi for your contributions, for your wishes for my travel, & will continue to lay up your family matters before the Lord.