GiGi It would seem we should be asking them some questions now GiGi, since Spencer's 5 page post to Chris. Mainly about something they both agreed that they do believe tonight. Its on page 5, and it says "I use a consistent, literal, face-value method of interpretation and understanding the entire Word of God, including prophecy. In other words "God says what He means, and means what He says" so I can take what He says at face value". Spencer and Chris believe in the literal interpretation of the Word of God yet if I'm not mistaken they both believe Jesus will come back like a thief in the night, a (secret rapture) when ( 1.Thes.4:16 ) is very clear He comes with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the (TRUMP OF GOD.) How can one say I believe in the literal interpretation of the Word of God and think this is a silent return? What about "God says what He means, and means what He says"? What about so I can take what He says at face value? I do agree with those words completely, EVERY WORD OF GOD IS PURE!! I'm sorry and certainly don't mean to offend anyone here but to say you take the Word of God literally and you believe God says what He means, and means what He says. And you both defend a pre-tribulation rapture as strongly as you do with absolutely zero verses that literally say the rapture, the return of Jesus in the clouds to gather His church is before the tribulation! And many just like 1.Thes.4:16 being a silent return, which just makes no sense at all. And you could say is almost the opposite of literal. You are saying you take the Words literally, but your beliefs are not in alignment with your words. I'm pointing this out with love as we are all children of God, please don't be offended. But please consider my words. Gal.6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Blessings.
Jimbob, The actual clear teachings of the Scriptures on the second coming of Christ have been cited and presented here multiple times by various people. But those who continue to adhere to their pre-trib rapture dispensational viewpoint while saying they believe what the Scriptures say with literal interpretation are just not really being honest, while accusing you and I of not understanding, or making many errors, or other words to discredit us are showing their unwillingness to submit to the plain teaching of Scripture without the influence of dispensational premillennialism nor an openness to reconsider in light of the counsel given them. So, it is probably best at this time to not engage in conversation with people who are disrespectful in the way they look down on us and pray for them. We, too, should remain open to learning new things or to correct our viewpoint when Scripture plainly teaches something refutes our beliefs.
Jimbob, I am sure there will be more opportunities to reiterate the teachings of Scripture on the second coming of Jesus in the future because the teaching on the pre-trib rapture is a recurring "pet" topic of discussion on this forum. We should be all be prayerful about what we say and bring to this forum as well as our motivations. We wish to be obedient to the lead of the Holy Spirit in all of our conversations here, but that does not mean we should not bring forth strong objections to ideas that contradict what is plainly stated in Scripture.
Have a good evening. I am going to lay low tonight since it is Friday. Not sure what hubby has planned, but looking forward to the weekend with him.
Hi Chris, the Clarence Larken book, Dispensational Truths is a classic dispensational treastise. You said you read it back in the 70's or 80's. I believe it was written around the turn of the century (1900) or so. So, if you read this book by Larkin, then you did educate yourself in dispensationalism. And that education has colored your approach to Scripture since then. Therefore, you cannot say that you got your ideas about the 7 dispensations or the distinction between Israel and the Jews, and the pre-trib rapture, nor the imminent, secret, unnoticed return of Jesus to rapture the church before the Tribulation only from studying Scripture. You studied Scripture during those years (I assume you were in your 20's or so) through the lens of dispensational theory.
I am not trying to beat up on you or anything, but i think we need to be intellectually honest here. I do not believe that anyone not exposed to dispensational theory would ever draw those beliefs out of serious study of the word. Darby was very deceived and even told one of his close friend concerning this new teaching he discovered
"
"he encouraged his friend to be discreet and publicly vague about this 'new wine tasting" (as he called his new truths), stating it would not be well to have it so clear."
Now why would he say that? Unless he knew teaching it plainly would lead to it being openly refuted and not accepted by true Christians and called heresy. This quote was from You Tube: Against Dispensationalism: Exposing the Found John Nelson Darby. By Jeff Swayze.
My point is that anyone who holds dispensational views were somehow taught them by someone else and that anyone who comes to realize this should admit that they are using presuppositions to interpret Scripture. So therefore, perhaps such a person should really do some research on this movement and its tenets to see if one should continue adhering to its teachings. And yes, one would have to research online for this or at the library, it is new
Thank you for sharing this information on dispensationalism. Over the years I have heard the term but never took the time to research or study it out. It seems that this word has been tossed around quite frequently over the last three weeks. From what you have just shared, I suppose I also stand guilty along with you and brother Spencer.
My beliefs on this latest topic (Rapture) come from studying scripture, not from studying what dispensationalists teach and then choosing to agree because it fits what I've been taught, or what I want it to believe.
It's been said that there are so many holes in the pre-trib rapture, but I think the same can also be said of post-trib. There are at least three views on the timing of the rapture, and some say there is no rapture at all.
Brother, unless the Lord by His Spirit shows me otherwise, I stand with you on this one!
Thanks brother Jesse. I did suspect that you too were a 'dispensationalist', & like you, I had very little understanding of this term, except from a perusal of a rather large book of charts & diagrams back in the 80s, put together by one Clarence Larkin. So my knowledge of this was limited to those seven dispensational periods seen in the Bible (I wonder if the number 7 is significant here?), but I had no more instruction on this position. Thanks for your input.
I've been thinking about the significance of the number 7, and from what I have understood for some time now is that the number 7 represents completeness.
I notice that Johns' style of writing, especially in the book of Revelation, John uses a heptatic system. Everything seems to be in a series of sevens. John uses a series of sevens, a heptatic system of writing for the book of Revelation.
So my understanding is that the number seven in scripture represents completeness or perfection. We know from the creation account that God rested on the 7th day. Perhaps that was to show that His creation work was complete and perfect.
What is interesting in the creation account is that after each of the first 6 days, it says "And the evening and the morning were the first day, and the evening and the morning were the second day, and the same all the way to the end of day 6.
But when we read through day 7, it doesn't say the evening and the morning was the 7th day. Could that be because the 7th day has never ended? That's what I tend to believe.
But I see that whenever the number seven is used, he's talking about the fullness and complete blessings.
There are seven churches that are going to receive seven messages. And if we put all those seven messages together, we have the complete message of Christ to the church until He returns. Completeness!
Thankyou for this and all your other excellent posts . I have been reading them for a long time now . My belief is that the Sabbath is yet to come , that the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth is the true Sabbath .
Thank you dear brother Jesse. I fully concur with what you've shared here, on the use of the number 'seven'. As you wrote, it certainly declares a 'fullness or completeness/perfection', but I had not previously considered seriously the 'missing' "evening and the morning was the seventh day" phrase in the Bible.
I think you may have uncovered something precious here, which clearly supports the present sense that I have, that "the seventh day has never ended". We as believers do enjoy that ongoing Sabbath (spiritual) rest ( Hebrews 4:1-6), which was denied to Israel for their wilful state of unbelief & disobedience; & yet our struggles in this life can never find its end, with that complete & perfect rest promised, never coming into our possession while Satan remains loose. Only until the Prince of Peace comes again & the world renewed without any possibility of such a devastating occurrence as before, can all of creation bask in the Glory of God & in His Perfect Rest as He originally planned for us. We just have a taste of it now (the 'evening' of the seventh day), waiting for that promised fruit to come to full maturity (the 'morning'), completing that seventh day of true & complete rest. As you can see, you've expanded my meditations on this considerably, for which I'm very appreciative.
whether or not one has right doctrine or not, but values sensationalism and felt beliefs based on emotions or spiritual experience to form their beliefs.
We are to use our minds, as Paul suggests, to come to understand truth, not our emotions or experiences. It is sad what now passes as true spiritual expression in many churches. Many of these expressions are so similar to what is experienced in those who follow New Age practices or pagan practices. What a deception. All because people have turned of their minds to correct teaching and understanding, been groomed by false teachers, and put a premium of 'feeling the presence of God sensually" rather than in a manner that truly aligns with God's Spirit and instructions for decency and soberness in worship.
I am not saying we need to return to dry formality. But saying that we should look at worship practices with a critical eye and align our practices up with the teaching of Paul in the word.
Anyway. I've said enough on this for now. Have a blessed day, and always have a questioning heart about what is said by others and done by others who claim to be "in Christ", yet be willing to be led by the Holy Spirit in all righteousness and truth.
I think your understanding of Rev 22:18, ed19 is too narrow. We must first remember that God is the author of the whole Bible. And that in the larger sense, all scripture is prophecy. To be a prophet is to declare the Word of God. There is a reason that God placed these verses at the very end of the Bible.
What God is teaching here is that once the Book of Revelation was complete the whole Bible was completed. God's articulated Word to mankind was completed and we are not to ADD TO nor TAKE AWAY from it. Never again will God speak to mankind in a dream, or a vision, or a voice or a tongue. And we are not to look for any other writings as being part of the Word of God.
Similarly we are never to understand that certain parts of the Bible are not the Word of God.
I'm not saying, dogmatically, that dispensationalism falls into this latter category. But some of the tenants certainly give me pause in that respect.
If we misunderstand certain passages in the Bible, i.e. have a wrong doctrine, that is not a violation of these verses as long as we approach the Bible alone and in its entirety as the Word of God.
What I am concerned about is the idea that only certain parts of the Bible are for us today or that certain parts of the Bible are for one segment of mankind but not for others. That to me is coming dangerously close to taking away from the Bible.
I also want to speak to the concept promoted by the dispensationalists that the pre-trib rapture will be a secret event known only to believers. But aside from Scripture explicitly and actually stating that Christ's return will be after the Tribulation, it is stated in Scripture plainly that it will be a visible return that ALL people will see, not invisible or secret. ( Matt. 24:26) He will return with brightness ( 2Thess. 2:8) with thunder and lightning and fire Coming on the clouds ( Matt. 24:27,30; 2 Peter 3:10) with great power and glory. The mountains will be moved out of place and flattened ( Rev. 6:14; 16:20)
There will be signs in the heavens (moon and sun go dark, stars fall from heaven, the powers of the universe will be shaken) ( Mk. 13:24-25) He will bring His angels with Him ( Mk. 13:27, Mt. 24:31)
So, clearly His coming to resurrect the dead and change the bodies of those alive will be a worldwide clearly seen and experienced event. The unrighteous will call out to the mountains to fall on them when they see Jesus coming on His throne.
Nope, no "secret, invisible rapture" will occur according the the explicit teaching of the Bible that says His Coming will be AFTER the Tribulation.
There is no Scripture in the Bible that tells He will come in stages or two comings. This is adding to the Scriptures.
You have misrepresented what I have been saying in my posts. Jesus will come a second time, after the Tribulation. Scripture says this in multiple places, as I stated.
But I was saying that He will not come again to rapture the church prior to the Tribulation and then again after the Tribulation, as dispensationalists say. That was my point.
..doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. This allowed him to teach that the coming for the church in the rapture is a different event than the Second Coming. He also began to taught an imminent return of Christ at any time, contrary to what Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:3 and what Jesus warns in Lk 21:8 that we are to not be deceived by those who teach that the Lord's return is imminent. We are to withdraw from such people.
"Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name. saying, 'I am the Christ; and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore with them."
Darby was obviously a highly intelligent man, but he was very young when he came up with this "new doctrine" of the rapture. (Yes, he called it "new" or "newly discovered") There obviously many people who were persuaded by him despite being very young (27) and not having many years in the Word. He had charisma and good oratory skills. he began traveling shortly after this revelation to Europe, America, and Australia to ply his doctrines. Many accepted what he said without question.
He died in 1882, but not until after he had caused multiple schisms among the very "Brethren" he began with, eventually pulling many away into a sub-sect known as the Exclusive Brethren , which was quite Separatist and refused to fellowship with any outside of this sub-sect. The members could not even fellowship with those of this sub-sect that were from another group of Exclusive Brethren. This behavior of isolating to himself a select group of people who approved of him and his doctrines, would not dare cross him for fear of reprisal, and allowing him to be the leader of this sect even though the Brethren as practice would not have any church leaders, pastors, or and select position in their meetings. Everyone served in the same capacities in their group. Yet, these people allowed Darby to rise to to the lead of this group. He was the one who ran the show.
Hello David, I understand what you are saying considering the whole of Scripture. However, in my post a I was using the narrow approach because that seems to be the indication of the passage in Rev. 22:19, the book of Revelation. I, too, think that we are not to change or add to or take away from any part of Scripture. But in citing this Scripture, I did not want to go beyond the text.
I do think as you do that by breaking up Scritpures into those that are directly to the Jews and those that are directly to the church is a doctrine that not only adds to Scripture, but also takes away wide portions of the Bible from applying to Christians.
Was just reading on Darby. He was from an affluent family in London. Went to the best schools. Graduated from Trinity College at 22 with a law degree (with very high honors). After working in law for 4 years, he became a priest, served for 2 years and became disillusioned concerning the Anglican church and its high ecclesiology and connection to the state. Wished to start his own church, so gathered with like-minded people who called themselves "brethren".)This was a new sect and has always been quite small with multiple schisms during Darby's lifetime. Darby excommunicated many who disagreed with him. he refused to fellowship with Brethren who did not agree with him.
After leaving the priesthood at 26, he joined this small group. At 27 in 1827 he "discovered" the pre-trib rapture doctrine in the Bible. He was immediately criticized by people in his group over this new idea. Many colleagues pointed out to him that this doctrine proves problematic by other Scriptures. So, then he invented the separation of Israel and the Church and designated some Scriptures are directed to Jews and others are directed to the Church. He then dissected the Bible up into sections called dispensations. None of these doctrines are explicitly taught in Scripture, but inserted as a way to "interpret" Scripture and to bolster up his original....
Therefore anyone who continues to hold this dispensational viewpoint into the Tribulation will receive upon themselves all of the plagues of the book of Revelation. It seems that faithful believers who do not add to Scripture will not be recipients of the plagues in this book of prophecy, as Rev. 21:19 seems to imply that this is the case. If those who add to the prophecy receive the plagues, then those who do not add to the prophecy will not.
The church has been groomed by the dispensational error for almost 200 years now. It has become ingrained into the mind and fabric of so many believers and churches/seminaries/universities. So, coming to the topic with a critical eye in order to see if what is taught in dispensationalism aligns with Scripture is very difficult for those who hold to it.
Satan is very cunning and smart. He is just as happy to use false teachings within the church as without to deceive Christians. It is wise for us to seek the wisdom from the Holy Spirit to check to see if one's beliefs align with Scripture AND be willing to forsake and repent of those that do not align.
There is a BIG sense in the church today to avoid what is referred to as doctrine. Many churches even profess to be non-doctrinaire. The letters of Paul speak in many places about teaching and receiving sound doctrine. Believers do need to change their negative attitude about doctrine since the word simply means right teaching that is supported by Scriptures.
We also need to resist running after whatever seems to be the "new" new thing that circulates among believers and churches. We should always be wary of what seems to be "taking Christians by storm". We need to learn lessons from the past concerning following after false teachers and ideas so readily.
Some don't value having right doctrinal beliefs, thinking it is "leftover" from the "traditions of men". But the Scriptures speak differently that this attitude. Some don't think that it matter
Everything I mentioned on my list of Dispensational beliefs I have heard on this site by posters and also from some research on this theory. I am not implying that ALL dispensationalists believe ALL of these things, but it is true that there are pastors and teachers and writers that are teaching each of these beliefs.
When Revelation 22:19 speaks of adding to or taking away from the prophecy of this book, it is specifically referring to the Book John wrote of the Revelation he received about the how history will pan out.
There curses associated with these actions are very BIG: the adding onto the one who adds to the prophecy all the plagues listed in this book and the removal from the Book of life of those who take away. Both are very serious curses. We should be very sober minded about this topic.
So, the question is: Does Dispensationalism add to or take away from what is recorded in Revelation? I think certainly it adds to the prophecy in such ways as:
--- the pre-tribulation rapture that Paul warned about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
---the setting up of the OT sacrificial and priestly system along with strict adherence to the OT laws and celebration of the feast days in the Millennium. I don't read of that in Revelation.
---that Jesus will resurrect people in three batches years apart.
---the nation of Israel will inherit the earth and the Church will inherit heaven.
---that the raptured saints will have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven during the 3.5 years of Tribulation without ALL of the redeemed.
---that the raptured saints will return from heaven with Jesus when He comes again to destroy the Anti-christ, etc. The truth is that there will not be any raptured saints in heaven to come with Him when He returns. The ones that come from heaven with Jesus are the angels, as Jesus said in Matt. 24 and elsewhere.
This just a handful of ways Dispensationalism adds to Scripture. ...continued
Jimbob, I am sure there will be more opportunities to reiterate the teachings of Scripture on the second coming of Jesus in the future because the teaching on the pre-trib rapture is a recurring "pet" topic of discussion on this forum. We should be all be prayerful about what we say and bring to this forum as well as our motivations. We wish to be obedient to the lead of the Holy Spirit in all of our conversations here, but that does not mean we should not bring forth strong objections to ideas that contradict what is plainly stated in Scripture.
Have a good evening. I am going to lay low tonight since it is Friday. Not sure what hubby has planned, but looking forward to the weekend with him.
I am not trying to beat up on you or anything, but i think we need to be intellectually honest here. I do not believe that anyone not exposed to dispensational theory would ever draw those beliefs out of serious study of the word. Darby was very deceived and even told one of his close friend concerning this new teaching he discovered
"
"he encouraged his friend to be discreet and publicly vague about this 'new wine tasting" (as he called his new truths), stating it would not be well to have it so clear."
Now why would he say that? Unless he knew teaching it plainly would lead to it being openly refuted and not accepted by true Christians and called heresy. This quote was from You Tube: Against Dispensationalism: Exposing the Found John Nelson Darby. By Jeff Swayze.
My point is that anyone who holds dispensational views were somehow taught them by someone else and that anyone who comes to realize this should admit that they are using presuppositions to interpret Scripture. So therefore, perhaps such a person should really do some research on this movement and its tenets to see if one should continue adhering to its teachings. And yes, one would have to research online for this or at the library, it is new
[Comment Removed]
Thank you for sharing this information on dispensationalism. Over the years I have heard the term but never took the time to research or study it out. It seems that this word has been tossed around quite frequently over the last three weeks. From what you have just shared, I suppose I also stand guilty along with you and brother Spencer.
My beliefs on this latest topic (Rapture) come from studying scripture, not from studying what dispensationalists teach and then choosing to agree because it fits what I've been taught, or what I want it to believe.
It's been said that there are so many holes in the pre-trib rapture, but I think the same can also be said of post-trib. There are at least three views on the timing of the rapture, and some say there is no rapture at all.
Brother, unless the Lord by His Spirit shows me otherwise, I stand with you on this one!
I've been thinking about the significance of the number 7, and from what I have understood for some time now is that the number 7 represents completeness.
I notice that Johns' style of writing, especially in the book of Revelation, John uses a heptatic system. Everything seems to be in a series of sevens. John uses a series of sevens, a heptatic system of writing for the book of Revelation.
Examples in the book of Revelation:
There are seven blessings, seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls, seven lampstands, seven spirits, seven stars, seven promises, seven horns, seven eyes, seven angels, seven thunders, seven heads, seven crowns, seven plagues, seven mountains, and seven kings.
So my understanding is that the number seven in scripture represents completeness or perfection. We know from the creation account that God rested on the 7th day. Perhaps that was to show that His creation work was complete and perfect.
What is interesting in the creation account is that after each of the first 6 days, it says "And the evening and the morning were the first day, and the evening and the morning were the second day, and the same all the way to the end of day 6.
But when we read through day 7, it doesn't say the evening and the morning was the 7th day. Could that be because the 7th day has never ended? That's what I tend to believe.
But I see that whenever the number seven is used, he's talking about the fullness and complete blessings.
There are seven churches that are going to receive seven messages. And if we put all those seven messages together, we have the complete message of Christ to the church until He returns. Completeness!
Blessings to you my brother!
I think you may have uncovered something precious here, which clearly supports the present sense that I have, that "the seventh day has never ended". We as believers do enjoy that ongoing Sabbath (spiritual) rest ( Hebrews 4:1-6), which was denied to Israel for their wilful state of unbelief & disobedience; & yet our struggles in this life can never find its end, with that complete & perfect rest promised, never coming into our possession while Satan remains loose. Only until the Prince of Peace comes again & the world renewed without any possibility of such a devastating occurrence as before, can all of creation bask in the Glory of God & in His Perfect Rest as He originally planned for us. We just have a taste of it now (the 'evening' of the seventh day), waiting for that promised fruit to come to full maturity (the 'morning'), completing that seventh day of true & complete rest. As you can see, you've expanded my meditations on this considerably, for which I'm very appreciative.
Last part.
whether or not one has right doctrine or not, but values sensationalism and felt beliefs based on emotions or spiritual experience to form their beliefs.
We are to use our minds, as Paul suggests, to come to understand truth, not our emotions or experiences. It is sad what now passes as true spiritual expression in many churches. Many of these expressions are so similar to what is experienced in those who follow New Age practices or pagan practices. What a deception. All because people have turned of their minds to correct teaching and understanding, been groomed by false teachers, and put a premium of 'feeling the presence of God sensually" rather than in a manner that truly aligns with God's Spirit and instructions for decency and soberness in worship.
I am not saying we need to return to dry formality. But saying that we should look at worship practices with a critical eye and align our practices up with the teaching of Paul in the word.
Anyway. I've said enough on this for now. Have a blessed day, and always have a questioning heart about what is said by others and done by others who claim to be "in Christ", yet be willing to be led by the Holy Spirit in all righteousness and truth.
I think your understanding of Rev 22:18, ed19 is too narrow. We must first remember that God is the author of the whole Bible. And that in the larger sense, all scripture is prophecy. To be a prophet is to declare the Word of God. There is a reason that God placed these verses at the very end of the Bible.
What God is teaching here is that once the Book of Revelation was complete the whole Bible was completed. God's articulated Word to mankind was completed and we are not to ADD TO nor TAKE AWAY from it. Never again will God speak to mankind in a dream, or a vision, or a voice or a tongue. And we are not to look for any other writings as being part of the Word of God.
Similarly we are never to understand that certain parts of the Bible are not the Word of God.
I'm not saying, dogmatically, that dispensationalism falls into this latter category. But some of the tenants certainly give me pause in that respect.
If we misunderstand certain passages in the Bible, i.e. have a wrong doctrine, that is not a violation of these verses as long as we approach the Bible alone and in its entirety as the Word of God.
What I am concerned about is the idea that only certain parts of the Bible are for us today or that certain parts of the Bible are for one segment of mankind but not for others. That to me is coming dangerously close to taking away from the Bible.
I also want to speak to the concept promoted by the dispensationalists that the pre-trib rapture will be a secret event known only to believers. But aside from Scripture explicitly and actually stating that Christ's return will be after the Tribulation, it is stated in Scripture plainly that it will be a visible return that ALL people will see, not invisible or secret. ( Matt. 24:26) He will return with brightness ( 2Thess. 2:8) with thunder and lightning and fire Coming on the clouds ( Matt. 24:27,30; 2 Peter 3:10) with great power and glory. The mountains will be moved out of place and flattened ( Rev. 6:14; 16:20)
There will be signs in the heavens (moon and sun go dark, stars fall from heaven, the powers of the universe will be shaken) ( Mk. 13:24-25) He will bring His angels with Him ( Mk. 13:27, Mt. 24:31)
So, clearly His coming to resurrect the dead and change the bodies of those alive will be a worldwide clearly seen and experienced event. The unrighteous will call out to the mountains to fall on them when they see Jesus coming on His throne.
Nope, no "secret, invisible rapture" will occur according the the explicit teaching of the Bible that says His Coming will be AFTER the Tribulation.
There is no Scripture in the Bible that tells He will come in stages or two comings. This is adding to the Scriptures.
You said there is no where in scripture that says he comes a second time, this is adding to scripture.
Hebrews 9:28 .....and unto them that who look for him shall he appear the SECOND TIME without SIN unto SALVATION ....
God Bless YOU!
You have misrepresented what I have been saying in my posts. Jesus will come a second time, after the Tribulation. Scripture says this in multiple places, as I stated.
But I was saying that He will not come again to rapture the church prior to the Tribulation and then again after the Tribulation, as dispensationalists say. That was my point.
Cont...
..doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. This allowed him to teach that the coming for the church in the rapture is a different event than the Second Coming. He also began to taught an imminent return of Christ at any time, contrary to what Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:3 and what Jesus warns in Lk 21:8 that we are to not be deceived by those who teach that the Lord's return is imminent. We are to withdraw from such people.
"Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name. saying, 'I am the Christ; and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore with them."
Darby was obviously a highly intelligent man, but he was very young when he came up with this "new doctrine" of the rapture. (Yes, he called it "new" or "newly discovered") There obviously many people who were persuaded by him despite being very young (27) and not having many years in the Word. He had charisma and good oratory skills. he began traveling shortly after this revelation to Europe, America, and Australia to ply his doctrines. Many accepted what he said without question.
He died in 1882, but not until after he had caused multiple schisms among the very "Brethren" he began with, eventually pulling many away into a sub-sect known as the Exclusive Brethren , which was quite Separatist and refused to fellowship with any outside of this sub-sect. The members could not even fellowship with those of this sub-sect that were from another group of Exclusive Brethren. This behavior of isolating to himself a select group of people who approved of him and his doctrines, would not dare cross him for fear of reprisal, and allowing him to be the leader of this sect even though the Brethren as practice would not have any church leaders, pastors, or and select position in their meetings. Everyone served in the same capacities in their group. Yet, these people allowed Darby to rise to to the lead of this group. He was the one who ran the show.
These behaviors are very similar to cult leaders.
I do think as you do that by breaking up Scritpures into those that are directly to the Jews and those that are directly to the church is a doctrine that not only adds to Scripture, but also takes away wide portions of the Bible from applying to Christians.
Was just reading on Darby. He was from an affluent family in London. Went to the best schools. Graduated from Trinity College at 22 with a law degree (with very high honors). After working in law for 4 years, he became a priest, served for 2 years and became disillusioned concerning the Anglican church and its high ecclesiology and connection to the state. Wished to start his own church, so gathered with like-minded people who called themselves "brethren".)This was a new sect and has always been quite small with multiple schisms during Darby's lifetime. Darby excommunicated many who disagreed with him. he refused to fellowship with Brethren who did not agree with him.
After leaving the priesthood at 26, he joined this small group. At 27 in 1827 he "discovered" the pre-trib rapture doctrine in the Bible. He was immediately criticized by people in his group over this new idea. Many colleagues pointed out to him that this doctrine proves problematic by other Scriptures. So, then he invented the separation of Israel and the Church and designated some Scriptures are directed to Jews and others are directed to the Church. He then dissected the Bible up into sections called dispensations. None of these doctrines are explicitly taught in Scripture, but inserted as a way to "interpret" Scripture and to bolster up his original....
[Comment Removed]
cont.
Therefore anyone who continues to hold this dispensational viewpoint into the Tribulation will receive upon themselves all of the plagues of the book of Revelation. It seems that faithful believers who do not add to Scripture will not be recipients of the plagues in this book of prophecy, as Rev. 21:19 seems to imply that this is the case. If those who add to the prophecy receive the plagues, then those who do not add to the prophecy will not.
The church has been groomed by the dispensational error for almost 200 years now. It has become ingrained into the mind and fabric of so many believers and churches/seminaries/universities. So, coming to the topic with a critical eye in order to see if what is taught in dispensationalism aligns with Scripture is very difficult for those who hold to it.
Satan is very cunning and smart. He is just as happy to use false teachings within the church as without to deceive Christians. It is wise for us to seek the wisdom from the Holy Spirit to check to see if one's beliefs align with Scripture AND be willing to forsake and repent of those that do not align.
There is a BIG sense in the church today to avoid what is referred to as doctrine. Many churches even profess to be non-doctrinaire. The letters of Paul speak in many places about teaching and receiving sound doctrine. Believers do need to change their negative attitude about doctrine since the word simply means right teaching that is supported by Scriptures.
We also need to resist running after whatever seems to be the "new" new thing that circulates among believers and churches. We should always be wary of what seems to be "taking Christians by storm". We need to learn lessons from the past concerning following after false teachers and ideas so readily.
Some don't value having right doctrinal beliefs, thinking it is "leftover" from the "traditions of men". But the Scriptures speak differently that this attitude. Some don't think that it matter
Everything I mentioned on my list of Dispensational beliefs I have heard on this site by posters and also from some research on this theory. I am not implying that ALL dispensationalists believe ALL of these things, but it is true that there are pastors and teachers and writers that are teaching each of these beliefs.
When Revelation 22:19 speaks of adding to or taking away from the prophecy of this book, it is specifically referring to the Book John wrote of the Revelation he received about the how history will pan out.
There curses associated with these actions are very BIG: the adding onto the one who adds to the prophecy all the plagues listed in this book and the removal from the Book of life of those who take away. Both are very serious curses. We should be very sober minded about this topic.
So, the question is: Does Dispensationalism add to or take away from what is recorded in Revelation? I think certainly it adds to the prophecy in such ways as:
--- the pre-tribulation rapture that Paul warned about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
---the setting up of the OT sacrificial and priestly system along with strict adherence to the OT laws and celebration of the feast days in the Millennium. I don't read of that in Revelation.
---that Jesus will resurrect people in three batches years apart.
---the nation of Israel will inherit the earth and the Church will inherit heaven.
---that the raptured saints will have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven during the 3.5 years of Tribulation without ALL of the redeemed.
---that the raptured saints will return from heaven with Jesus when He comes again to destroy the Anti-christ, etc. The truth is that there will not be any raptured saints in heaven to come with Him when He returns. The ones that come from heaven with Jesus are the angels, as Jesus said in Matt. 24 and elsewhere.
This just a handful of ways Dispensationalism adds to Scripture. ...continued
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