Bible Discussion Thread

Jimbob, It seems that your thread to Jesse has been closed for further comment. So, admin may be wanting this conversation to end. It may be best to let this go, but I do agree that you and most likely I have been mischaracterized by those who do not agree with our discourse on the pre-trib rapture discussion. We probably won't get a profitable response back from those who have stated that we are mistreating others with our words on this discussion. So, perhaps it is best to forgive, let go, and move on. There is the evidence of what all of us posted in this discussion, so we can go back and re-read to see if you or I done what has been accused or it the other parties have done to us what they are accusing us of doing. With that said, I think the discussion on the pre-trib rapture was pretty much completed now and it is up to those reading to search the Scriptures and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit on this matter. We can pray for them and I hope they will pray for us.

I am glad that you and I stayed the course in this discussion and were not intimidated by what anyone else said, but instead attempted to present our viewpoint by staying on topic and giving a reasoned, Scriptural reply. We can rest knowing that we spoke out on a topic in which we are certainly the minority in today's realm of Christian thought of those on this site. Take everything to the Lord in prayer.

Hello Gigi . I have been aware that something was going on between you and a couple of the regulars on here , so I didn't read all the posts between you as I didn't want to get involved , so forgive me that I don't know exactly what the problem was . One thing that I did notice was that the tone of the discussion didn't seem very friendly or respectful at times and that was from all of you involved in it and was the main reason that I decided not to read the posts as I didn't want myself to be provoked by any of you . We can and do , have many differences in our beliefs on here and that's fine by me , the way that we disagree is very important though . I tend to not say anything to anyone unless I feel confident that they are not going to be offended or provoked by me and that I can speak freely to them without causing them to be angry at me and then respond negitavely . To be honest , there are only a couple of people I feel that way about on here and I shan't name names . You have to feel a bit of trust in whom ever you are speaking to I think , that's how it is with me any way and there are definately a few on here that I would not be afraid to get into a debate with but , I'm sorry to say , it's only a few . Our faith is very important to all of us so we can all be very passionate about it , this can sometimes mean that we tread on each others toes . Don't despair , we all cool down eventually and I'm sure we have all learned from the little dispute that has been going on and is hopefully over with now . Be patient and give everyone a chance to smooth their feathers back into place .

Hello Mel8, Thank you for your post to me.

And I agree, we should have a degree of trust between the people we interchange ideas with on here. And I do have that sense of trust with the "regulars" I was dialoguing with concerning the pre-trib rapture theory. I have exchanged ideas with these folks man, many times on here and do trust. It is because of this past experiences with them that I felt I could address the differences we have on this topic at length. And I still trust them. We just strongly disagree on this point.

I would have welcomed your input in this discussion if you so felt led to participate. But, now that the discussion is closed, I am glad to hear of your feelings about it. Take care, Mel. I am glad you are among us here. I do believe that God has drawn each of here according to His divine counsel. We can love one another here and also disagree. These are not opposing things, rather aspects of true relationship that endures through difficult interactions and remains beyond disagreements.

Have a blessed day, Mel.

GiGi You are right again, you usually are. I was falsely accused of many things by Jesse. I only commented and asked if he would show me the posts or comments where I harassed, or badgered anybody, or was tearing them down or disrespecting anyone in any way. I did none of those things GiGi. I only posted Truth, I never attacked or harrassed anyone in anyway. I also told him that I do forgive him for wrongfully accusing me, and that I would Pray for him. There have been a few of my posts that have not shown up for some reason, I hope this one does. God Bless you GiGi. Truth will stand when nothing else will.

(Part 3):

Jimbob,

If I remember correctly, I think I read where GiGi had said that she has changed her mind on things before. I also have changed my mind on things that I once thought to be true, but later on through closer study, changed my mind. Maybe that has never happened to you before, but it has happened to me. If one changes their mind on scripture, wouldn't that mean that what they once thought was the truth, they no longer believe to be true? I would think so.

Jimbob/GiGi,

I'm sure you both would agree with me (or maybe not) when I say that the rapture is one of the most controversial topics amongst Christians. It is a topic that has caused much division within the body of Christ. I think our conversations on this subject have proven that. We call pre-tribulation a "theory," but to be fair, if one does an online study, Pre/Mid/Post Trib. are all listed as "theories." The bible never specifically says there will be a Pre-Trib. Rapture. But it also never specifically says there will be a Mid-Trib. Or Post-Trib. Rapture either. I think the three of us do believe there will be a rapture. We just don't agree on the timing.

You both have shared your understanding on this, and I truly believe you have come to your conclusion through careful study of scripture. I also have come to my conclusion through careful study. Whether one believes in Pre/Mid/Post Trib., each side has convincing scripture to support their belief. We all study the same bible, and the same Holy Spirit that lives in me, also lives in you both. We all have to rely on God's Spirit to teach us. I have no doubt that that is your approach to scripture, as it is mine also.

May the Lord continue to bless you both!

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

Are you saying that I am intentionally choosing to deceive people and hide the truth from them? If so, that is so far from the truth. I have been posting here for several years, and I have NEVER chosen to deceive anyone, nor have I chosen to hide truth from anyone. Let me ask you this: If I told you that you were choosing to deceive people and hide truth from them, how would that make you feel? I would never say that to you. Even though we disagree on this topic, you believe you are correct, and I believe that I am correct, I'm sure you are being completely honest when you share what you believe to be true.

Now, you say that all you are doing is posting truth? Don't we all believe we are posting truth? But what happens when the "truth" you are posting conflicts with the "truth" someone else is posting? Why is it always the other persons "truth" that is false? We read a lot of things here, some of it seems slightly off, and some things are way out there, but those who post actually believe the things they are posting are true.

Are there any of us here that can honestly say that the things they share is absolute truth, or that they are completely incapable of misunderstanding God's word? I cannot say that for myself. I know that it is always possible for me to misunderstand scripture, and it is also possible for me to post something that is wrong, even though I believe it to be true. But I also believe it is the same for everyone else.

It's easy to say we are posting truth, but in actuality, what we are doing is sharing what we believe to be true through our understanding. What we post and share with others is what we study and believe to be true. We share our understanding. That's all we can do. None of us are infallible when it comes to God's word. We are all capable of misunderstanding.

(Part 1):

Jimbob, first, let me say that I completely agree with your characterization of GiGi. You've described her quite well. I fully concur. I remember when she first came on this site, and I have followed her posts from that time forward, and I have never read anything from her that seemed disrespectful. In fact, quite the opposite.



GiGi, I have read through your discussion with Jimbob, and some of things you mentioned, I did say, but I can assure you that nothing I said was directed at you, especially the part about "continuing the argument for weeks. And I did not say that you have posted "many errors." I believe what I said was there have been things in the past that you have shared that I disagreed on, but I never said, "many errors". Off the top of my head, I would say that there might be two or three things that we differ on, but those things did not seem important enough to call you out on. I'm sure I have posted things that you have disagreed with also, rapture timing for sure being one.

You responded to GiGi saying "I only commented and asked if he would show me the posts or comments where I harassed, or badgered anybody, or was tearing them down or disrespecting anyone in any way." I searched for your comment to me last night but did not find any comment you had addressed to me. I went back a full week looking for your name and could not find your post to me. This morning I searched again, and I did find a post that said Jimbob-in reply. I saw that last night but did not know who you were replying to, so I looked past it. When I opened it up this morning, it read "May God be with those you choose to be deceiving and hide the Truth. Nothing is hid from God!"

Jesse Thank you for your response, though you did not provide any of the things that you accused me of. That comment that said "May God be with those who choose to be deceiving and hide the truth" was not directed at you. If you read my comments to GiGi then you know I told her some of my comments were not showing up. The one where I asked you to please show me where I was harassing or badgering anyone did not show on the main page, but did show on the thread where me and Spencer were having the discussion. Thats were you made the comments to Spencer about me harassing or badgering people, you even said this used to be a good place to have discussions about a month ago. Jesse you wrongfully accused me of several things and I didn't find anything in your 3 pages tonight that prove any of that true, or any apology for the accusations you made against me. The comment to you where I asked you to show me was on 3-18 it was the comment just before the one about hiding the truth. Now after these comments by you tonight I find you were accusing me of something else about continuing the argument for weeks. I was under the impression that we were having a discussion not arguing. I don't like arguing. Tonight you said a lot about we post things we believe to be the truth, that's true Jesse but when you were accusing me of being disrespectful, and harassing, badgering people that was your opinion (that was not truth) and has nothing to do with posting the truth from Scripture, does it? I only have one more thing to say, not to start this again but you said The Bible doesn't specifically say the rapture is pre or post trib. ( Mt 24:29-31) does say "Immediately after the tribulation" its just taken completely out of context by pre-trib believers. I do forgive you Jesse. Even though an apology would have made me think that maybe you really didn't mean all those hurtful things you said about me. But maybe you did.

Jimbob,

That was not your original comment, and that is why I thought it was directed at me. Your original comment said "May God be with those YOU choose to be deceiving and hide the Truth." You did not say "May God be with those who choose to be deceiving and hide the truth" There is a difference between saying "those YOU choose," verses those who choose. That's why I took it as being directed at me.

Now, the reason I offered no apology in my last post is because at the time, I did not feel a need to apologize. There was a reason why I said the things I did in my post to brother Spencer. I could have given you an apology, but I have a very strong conviction that an apology must be sincere and from the heart. So, apologizing at the time would not have been sincere. The Lord would be my witness to that.

Jimbob, I want you to know that I prayed about this. I asked the Lord to reveal to me if those things I said were in anyway hurtful or wrong. Prior to the post I sent to brother Spencer, there was this still small voice inside of me saying don't go there. But I let my fleshly human emotions get in the way instead of listening to that voice inside telling me otherwise.

So, with that being said, I do believe that the Lord has put it on my heart to apologize to you for the things I said. In the future, if I feel the need to stand up for another brother or sister on something I feel strongly about, I will choose my words more carefully, not in the manner I directed towards you.

Brother, I ask that you please accept my sincere apology. Blessings to you in Christ our Lord!

Jesse, Yes I do accept your apology. That really does mean a lot to me, we all do make mistakes. Those things you said really did bother me Jesse and were hurtful but all is forgiven brother. Thank you Jesse. I looked at that comment I made and it does say the word you where I was almost positive it said who, It should have said who. I am sorry if that caused confusion, but it was definitely not directed to you. I made that comment after I commented to you, the comment I made (to you) showed up for a few minutes then it was gone, I have no idea why, or how but it just disappeared. That comment was directed to whoever took it away, I thought it was very important for you to get the one I addressed to you so we could get this worked out. I always address who I'm commenting to by name as to not cause confusion. I learned that from a few in this group right after I started here in it, you may have been one of them. Thank you again Jesse, and again all is forgiven. God Bless you.

Jimbob,

I hope you are doing well this morning. I agree that we should ask others to show us where we stated something that was not right in our posts when they accuse us of mistreating others. This can make us more aware of how our words impact others, but also, by their lack of response to identify the supposed mistreatment, we can know that they were making these aspersions in order to discredit us and what we have said on a topic. But if they do post the statements we made that they feel is mistreatment, then we can clear up what seemed to be a problem to them.

I went back and re-read my posts on the topic of pre-trib rapture to see if I disparaged, badgered, or otherwise spoke unkindly to the others in the conversation. I don't think I did, but I did call out what I thought were word that we spoken against me personally and I did challenge people to be willing to believe the plain, explicit statements in the Scripture that disallow a pre-trib rapture. That is not badgering or harassment. Just honest interchanges, but others may not see it that way because they may have been uncomfortable with such responses to what they have said of me and with what was pointed out in Scripture.

We then should give time for things to be considered and let the Holy Spirit work in all of us. I have found it common when refuting the pre-trib rapture theory that some who believe do end up attempting to discredit the person who disagrees with their belief in the pre-trib rapture. But our focus should be on what Scripture actually says plainly and explicitly, being ready to believe what the Word says and to lay aside any beliefs we may hold that are contrary to the Word. We all have pre-conceptions that we bring to our reading of Scripture, but we need to be aware of these preconceptions and ask the Holy Spirit to help us set them aside so that we do not read our preconceptions into the Scripture or interpret it based on presuppositions we may have.

GiGi I am doing good, thank you GiGi for asking and for all your comments. Like I said before you are very wise, and I am thankful for all your posts and comments, and your friendship. I knew you had never disrespected anyone on this site GiGi you have to big of a heart for that, your concern is to build up not tear down. Nobody should ever accuse you of being disrespectful! The Truth will stand GiGi, you were right about our comments being seen by many other people so I will continue to make posts about the pre-tribulation theory being what it is in hopes that others will see that Truth. Just not as many maybe! But I will be more careful in any discussions with others from here on out. I only want to share the Truth not cause problems of any kind for anybody, and definitely not mislead anyone causing them to fall away from the Truth, the Truth in Scripture should be the only thing that matters for all of us. I'm truly sorry if I caused or created any trouble of any kind for you GiGi. You are a special person GiGi the world would be a much better place if there were more people like you. God Bless you.

Jimbob, No worries. You have not caused me any problem. I just wish to add that when this discussion comes up again, we should be mindful of interchange with a person who claims repeatedly that they do not read posts, only the first lines and then decides not to read further, but still responds back to you to say he did not read what your response to him. That is odd behavior to me. But I do know this person to be otherwise reasonable and caring. so, it may be just this subject that he has a deep sensitivity to.

Likewise, I need to be mindful of one who intimated that I search posts to find ones I disagree with in order to start an argument. and continue the argument for weeks. This is definitely not true of me.

I know this person to be kind and helpful the overwhelming majority of the time, but on this topic, not so much.

Both of these guys have spoken that they know I have posted many errors and yet they decided not to speak up about it to me. I wish they had. But if they didn't think it was on a matter that was crucial and so didn't respond to correct me, then why bring it up in posts on this topic? I do wish people would speak to me when they think I make a Scriptural error and if they think my explanations have "holes" in them, then I wish they would speak to me about these, too.

I love these guys and enjoy speaking with them on this forum for the most part. I just have to say that I was surprised at their comments about you and I. They are not normally this way. Makes me sad a bit. But it doesn't in any way discourage me, nor will it deter me from speaking my objections to the veracity of the pre-trib rapture theory.

Even so, I don't wish to be contrary or to bad-mouth them, but to address with you what we should be mindful of the next time this topic comes up on this forum. Here we have the freedom to express our position on bible doctrines and Scriptural views. And so, I hope anyone will make use of this freedom, but also to do so out of love.

Gigi.

You stated; "we should be mindful of interchange with a person who claims repeatedly that they do not read posts, only the first lines and then decides not to read further, but still responds back to you to say he did not read what your response to him. That is odd behavior to me" End quote. What are you insinuating?

Here is what I said;

Jimbob

I never honestly read the reply and not going to. I only read the first sentence of this post and immediately lost interest. I didn't go no further.

(..I was thinking it may have been something about salvation...)

I'm sorry I have read very little of your replies since your initial post unless it was directly to me.

Nothing recently.

After you said you don't won't to talk about salvation I decided to agree to disagree, and I hope you can respect that.

God bless. END QUOTE.

When I said we will have to agree to disagree it wasn't accepted.

Then I continue to get replies such as this.

Here is where I went back and researched.

Link:text=S%20Spencer%20You%20will,Truth.%20Right%3F%20Blessings%20Spencer.

Link:text=S%20Spencer%20You,you%20are.%20Blessings.

Here is my response;

Hi Jimbob.

Didn't you say you do not care to discuss Salvation?

And on it went.

After all of this I declared the reason I never commented on the initial post.

I said this post seems to be a invitation to a debate and to seek and stamp out anyone that holds the pretrib view and after several weeks it appears that I was right considering the attempt to force me to engage when I clearly said I wasn't interested.

I have ignored these types of posts often, on all topics when presented that way.

God bless.

Hi Gigi.

I returned from my vacation and find there is much confusion that I may be a help in clearing up being I am that someone you are speaking to Jimbob about.

First of all I love to share on eschatology, and you want find no where I have gotten bent out of shape on the topic.

And I didn't engage in this topic from the beginning because Brother Chris was very much engaged and I wasn't interested enough to even follow Chris writings.

I was occupied with sharing with brother Ronald and could hardly keep up with him. What caught me attention was a response by Ronald and Jesse and then a interesting take on 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 by Chis where I complimented him.

I believe that's when Jimbob responded to me! We had a short peaceful back and forwards from 03/02 on through 03/08.

What ended it for me is on 03/08 I asked Jimbob did he care to discuss soteriology and here is how that went.

"Jimbob I see you Brother Chris and others have covered much of this topic. I'm not sure what you guys covered,

I haven't had the chance to read much of it.

I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

However I would love to discuss soteriology with you.

I don't believe the eschatology views have anything to do with whether one is saved or not.

May I ask How do you feel about that?

Are we saved by grace?

Works "of the Law"?

Both? ect..

Jimbobs Answer;

"S Spencer To say Rev.2:10 is speaking of 10 persecutions that happened around the 3rd century is one I have never heard before. As for discussing Soteriology, Thank you for the invitation Spencer, But I do think I'll pass that one up. Blessings."

Again, my response.

Thanks and God bless Jimbob.

That ended it for me.

Anyone can go back and see for themselves it was nothing like the picture you are presenting.

There was no hostile involvement on my part.

From there you, I and others spoke on dispensationalism.

out of space see part 2.

Gigi.

We don't all have to agree to be peaceful, but we can be honest, and I have always been honest with you.

I've always thought you studied "Christianity" more so than studying scripture and has only a basic understanding,

More like studying a history book but far from a scholar or anyone with any authority.

I've always mentioned that and you shouldn't be surprised.

You have said the Old Testament and eschatology wasn't your strong point and that is well understood because you would have to know somewhat about the Old Testament and the promises to Israel to understand eschatology.

You recently said this topic wasn't as important as soteriology and it was a topic that divides the body of Christ.

It does if we can't agree to disagree when prompt.

GOOD NIGHT. AND GOD BLESS.

Hello Steven, welcome back.

Steven, I do not wish to rehash the discussion that was going on about the pre-trib rapture. But I will say that I was definitely not trying to stamp out anyone who believed in the pre-trib rapture. I intended to present what I knew from studying Scripture.

It seems that you have mischaracterized me here. I have studied Scripture all of my life. I have not read as much on "Christianity" as you seem to claim.

As I said before, you do not know how much I know and understand about Scripture, so your negative evaluation is unmerited. There are some biblical topics I understand better than others, but I am not as uninformed nor lack understanding as you seem to have implied. I don't think anyone on this forum has everything figured out.

As far as eschatology is concerned. I don't have answers to all of your questions about the millenneum nor all the OT prophetic passages. But I can honestly say that I do not think there is any biblical support for the pretrib-rapture. It is never explicitly taught anywhere. I also do not adhere to dispensationalism, which is an extra-biblical system that must be studied out side of the Bible to learn what it teaches. I do not find anywhere in the Bible that says that there are seven dispensation, nor that there are two distinct peoples of God, nor that Christians will spend eternity in heaven while Israelites will spend eternity on earth.

As to what happens after Jesus returns after the tribulation and we are either resurrected or transformed, I do not wish to speculate on this too much. When Jesus returns, I know that whatever He has planned to happen after that event will be great for believers and I trust Him in how He reigns.

For the future, I would just ask that you share your view in discussions without defaming me. By your response tonight, you don't seem to think that you were wrong in any way with what you posted concerning me, but I disagree.

For now, I am done with this topic.

GiGi I don't know if this applies to you but I have found from past experiences that everybody who believes the pre-tribulation rapture theory will pretty much go in attack mode when they can't defend what's being presented to them from Scripture that disproves this theory. I agree with you GiGi we should always present our case with Scripture, and with love. But that should go both ways, if someone didn't correct you when they said you posted many errors and then brings it up in this discussion much later, then are they being completely honest? How can we know unless they show us at that time, if we post something that's not Biblically correct? One of those guys did agree with you about something, then he admitted that he didn't even read the post. One also falsely accused me of things and it sounds like did the same to you. We should be very careful who we put our trust in today for Truth, unless its proven with Scripture. Many Blessings GiGi.

Jimbob, yes, this has been my experience.

I just truly want people to point out when they think I make an error in a timely way so that I can reconsider and correct it when necessary. To me, truth matters, and I want to be on the side of truth as much as possible, especially when I post on a forum like this.

So, hopefully, our conversations with these and others will be edifying in the future, honest, forthright, and addressing the topic of discussion without personal remarks that border on slander.

I know I did exactly what I was asked to do, support my view with Scripture and break down Scripture verse by verse. No one addressed these posts that I cited Scripture as far as refutation. So, I guess that speaks for itself.

Jimbob, we all can learn to be more humble, teachable, and willing to have our viewpoints "sifted" by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. This is always good! Have a blessed day.