Bible Discussion Thread

2 Thessalonians 2:1-14.

Part 1.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 one must 1sr understand that the day of the Lord is not the tribulation. Here in verses 2 and 3 Paul is assuring the Thessalonians that day hasn't come yet. In verse 3 He's assuring them that there was no msg sent by him that the day of the Lord was at hand and that the great tribulation will come 1st and also that day hasn't come yet. That's why he mentions the son of perdition.

vs 2)"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter AS FROM US, as THAT THE DAY OF CHRIST IS (AT HAND.)

vs 3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

VERSE 1 IS THE SCOPE OF THE LETTER.

vs 1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,

By letter by "SUPPOSEDLY" from Paul they thought the day of the Lord has begun.



In vs 5 he reminds them of what he told them before.

vs 5) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Here's what he reminded them of.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Most of what we know about the day of the Lord is in the OT.

Here's verses from the OT describing what the day of the Lord will be like.

Zephaniah 2:2-3.

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

"Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER."

Zephaniah 1:18.

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of (ALL) them that dwell in the land.

see part 2.

Hello S. Spencer, I just wish to add that verse one says

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. I believe that this verse and verse two are both speaking of the same thing, the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of believers unto Him, and the Day of the Lord are all the same event.

Hi Gigi.

Part 2.

If the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of believers unto Him, and the Day of the Lord are all the same event as you stated,

Who's going to populate the Millenium if all the wicked is destroyed and the righteous raptured at this junction?

Who's these 2 groups described in Revelation 20:8-9?

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And (THEY) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the (SAINTS) about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured (THEM).

Who are these saints?

Who are they that went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints?

If we would let the scripture tell us, verse 8 tells us who the saints are. (whom is as the sand of the sea.) This is an Old Testament idiom for Israel.

We know they're not the church they reign with Christ during this period and in Revelation 19:1-9 the Church has made herself ready.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

To hold that view one would have to suggest that the Church was raptured then returned, Satan released, the wicked resurrected to cause more harm for the bride to go thru it all over again.

You have to include the Millennium in your eschatology theology.

That's why some post trib people say were already in the millennium to get rid of this major issue.

Amen Hallelujah! Thank you for the good work you have done here.

My church thinks so well that we should be pulled away.

I see it like you and others here on the web. And bothered, not so that it gets on my nerves, but I pray that one day I can have the word. And can speak freely with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and anointed by Jesus Christ. We must learn to use the spiritual sword, Amen.

They go astray all those who say this. Many fall asleep in this nighttime song, unfortunately.

Praising God for He gives us clarity and understanding and the right words! Thank you again dear brother in Christ I love you and everyone. We outside Israel are His buds instilled into the Tree and which the Lord Himself has grown. Amen

John 7 chapter.

Amen Free.

God bless you.

Hello Spencer. If you don't mind I've got a few things to add to this. ( Rev 19:7-9) Is the marriage supper of the Lamb, this has to be taking place (after) the rapture of the church. Right? (The ((coming of the Lord)) or ((coming in the clouds)) is the (rapture) of the church, its called the (day of the Lord) for non-believers as it will come as a thief in the night to them. Those non-believers will be on the earth facing the wrath of God while those raptured are at ( Rev 19:7-9) Now in ( Rev 19:11-16) This is when Jesus Christ returns to the earth (with His church) to treadeth (end) the winepress and fierceness and wrath of Almighty God, and rule the nations with a rod of iron in ( Rev 19:15) The church will come back with Him. ( Rev 19:8) has the wife arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. ( Rev 19:14) Tells us the armies (which were in heaven) that followed Him upon white horses were clothed in fine linen, white and clean. The wicked who are left on the earth are not all destroyed, but they will go through the wrath of God in ( Rev 16) When Jesus returns to the earth on a white horse (with the church who will reign with Him) the beast has gathered together an army, and kings of the earth to fight against Jesus in ( Rev 19:19-21) There will be a battle, Jesus cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire. Now ( Rev 20) Starts with Satan being cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Who asked about two groups in ( Rev 20:8-9) A look at ( Rev 20:7) tells us Satan is loosed out of his prison and he goes out to deceive the nations. Those who compassed the camp of the saints are those that Satan deceived in ( Rev 20:8) The saints would be those who are reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. ( Rev 20:8-10) This is the battle of Gog and Magog which ends the Millennial reign on the earth. ( Rev 20:11-15) Is the great white throne judgment where the dead (spiritually dead) are judged. After this its either the lake of fire or Eternity with the LORD. Blessings

Hi Jimbob.

Thanks for the reply,

I will give my response hopefully this evening sometime after work.

God bless.

S. Spencer, you have included lots of information for me to unpack, so it will take some time for me to examine the Scripture sections and questions you have posed.

Thanks for responding. I'll get back to you after I have considered more thoroughly what you have posted.

Looks like part 1 and 2 may run together and get crossed up between the 2 posts. one would have to put them in order by the time sequence.

God bless and goodnight.

Thanks for the response Gigi.

part 1

That's a good point you make,

However, Here's a few issues with that view,

1) The day of the Lord is mentioned 31 times in the bible, 26 times in the Old Testament and 5 in the New Testament.

To my knowledge nowhere in scripture it mentions any removal of the saints.

Here's a few.

Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament ( Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages ( Revelation 6:15-17; 16:14).

In 2 Peter 3:3-18 we are told the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, and holding back his wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice something in verses 11 and 12.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ITS A QUESTION!!

The answer is NO!

Here's what were looking for;

Verses 13-16.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

See part 2 and the second issue I have with that view.

Hello S. Spencer;

I am still going through what you have posted. I just have one comment for this post. In 2 Peter 3:11 the question is what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? This question is qualifed by the phrase "Seeing then that all things shall be dissolved" and the phrase after (vs. 12) "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

Verse 13 says "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

So I am not sure why you answered the question of verse 11 with "NO!"

To me it is asking us to consider how we should think and live our lives knowing that everything we now know that exists will be destroyed in the day of the the coming of Jesus. We are not to value the things of this world as much as we are to value the things of God and what our inheritance is when Jesus returns for us. Verse 14 says "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

So Peter is wanting us to be mentally and spiritually prepared for the coming of the Lord knowing His promises and staying the course of faith in Him.

But anyway, why did you say "NO!" it just seems like an out of place answer to the question posed.

Hi Gigi.

Thanks

2 Peter 3:11-14.

We're seeing the same thing.

Sorry! I didn't make that clear and I'm always on the run so hardly ever proof read.

11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Verse 13 seems to be in contrast to verses 11and 12 and the scoffers

14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

What I was emphasizing is "why is that even a question posed to us when the focus is on the scoffers? It's like he is saying, "Why are you bothering yourself with this and then he goes on to say what should matter to you in the next verses.

We're not concerned with God's wrath as Peter says Paul mentioned in his epistles.

I will be in touch with you guys.

My brother went on to be with the Lord and I've been busy.

God bless.

So sad to read this my dear brother. May you & all the family know the immeasurable Grace & Strength of the Lord at this time - and with His Grace, comes healing. "...with Christ, which is far better" ( Philippians 1:23) was your brother's hope & our present longing as we will one day meet our Savior & God and see all who have gone on before us. You're in my thoughts & prayers brother.

Hey S Spencer,

I am so sorry; my prayers are with you and your family.

God bless,

RLW

Brother Spencer,

I am so sorry to hear this. My prayers are also with you during this difficult time. The only comfort we find is knowing that your brother is now with the Lord.

S. Spencer,

Sorry for your loss but we can rejoice that he is with our Savior. I will keep you and your family in my prayers this week.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-14.

Part 2.

Continuing with just a few of the Day of the Lord verses.

Zephaniah 1:15

Isaiah 13:9

Lamentations 2:1

Isaiah 13:13

Isaiah 51:22

Jeremiah 25:15

Revelation 16:19

Revelation 14:10

Revelation 16:1

Isaiah 63:1-6.

This is what Paul is telling them is not at hand. This is what we all agree on besides a few that the Church will not see.

However some see the Rapture in Revelation 20:4-6 sadly mistaking it for the Resurrection.

That would place the Church on the Earth during the wrath of the Lord that comes upon all the Earth.

When we take 2 Thessalonians 2:3



"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;

Paul gives them the sequence of events in chronological order of what happens "AFTER" that what he reminded them of previously in

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

That's why he opens up saying "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by "OUR" gathering together unto him," 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

Paul included them and himself in this gathering! So did they see the son of perdition? No.

We take 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the following scriptures to pitch our viewpoint. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-15.

The son of perdition can't come while the light bearers is in the world. The Church! Who sits in the midst of the Church? Christ/His Holyspirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

God bless.

Hey S Spencer,

Just a little there are many parts, and this subject is hard, what we are looking for when the end comes only will affect those who are living when it starts, if it is today, are we ready? We should study it with 1 Cor. 8:2 in mind. Jesus's return is after, Satan is cast down, the beast, the false prophet, with his 3.5 years given him Rev. 13:5.

I think most agree it is the gathering together of the elect, saints, chosen and faithful, who will be in the first resurrection, whether we use Matt. 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 1 Thess. 4:16-17 1 Cor. 15:51-53 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 it is the gathering together. Where is the destination?

Most will also agree we through Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God, Rom. 5:9 and we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thes. 5:9. Where do the elect go after the gathering and thinking that the white throne judgment is for just the lost, causes division? Are we gathered and taken to heaven, or do we come back down here on earth to reign with Jesus? This earth is round so we see in 1Thes. 4:14 to Jerusalem.

Jesus is coming to carry out the wrath and those in the first resurrection are to reign with Christ on earth, Rev. 20:1-4. We see Jesus brings the wrath, Rev. 19:11-21, also, it is pictured in Rev. 6:14-17, and Rev. 11:15-18, the seventh and last trump.

God has placed Jesus above all until the last enemy is under His feet and destroyed and that will be death, 1 Cor. 15:24-26 Rev. 20:13-14. In Zech. 14:4 When Jesus returns, He will stand on the Mount of Olives where He ascended. The meeting Him in the air is the delegation of saints gathered together to welcome our King back to this earth, and the camp, the gathering of the saints will be around Jerusalem, where He will reign from Rev. 20:9 not to go back from where He came.

After Jesus returns, we see the vials poured out in Rev. 16.

Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

I was going through some old replies that I haven't read and here's a question you asked me that I never answered.

Your question was;

Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?

There's verses in the Bible that look ahead and show us "IN" heaven. Revelation 5:3 AND NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Also read all of ch 5.

Better late then never.

God bless.

Hey S Spencer,

Thanks brother, better late than sorry Ha! Ha! That is something an old man like me would say, love you brother. If we look at the word man it is not man it is oudeis and outheis, oudemia, ouden and outhen the meaning, no one, none, nothing, the same word is used in vs 4 the only one who could do what Jesus our savior could do as a man.

My understanding is only Jesus the Son of God could do what He did as a man like you and me and not an angel or any other being, but the Son of God could have done as a man giving His life for us. He lived a perfect life something me or you cannot do. This in my understanding does not show we go to heaven.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Brother Ronald.

I agree with you on it has to be a Kinsman Redeemer.

So he had to be able to suffer death to qualify and open the book.

Only Jesus could fulfill that role. So it had to be a man, "We share Jesus humanity"

However the emphasis is WHERE John looked! ( And no man in heaven,) nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book...

And when he opened the book this same group in which John searched for the redeemer sung this;

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:8-10.

I also hold the view that this redeemed group is the Church.

God bless.

Hey S Spencer,

Thanks for your reply I know you are a traveling man and I know we differ on this and as long as we can inspire each other to study and keep our noses in the Bible that is ok.

This is my understanding and what I see, John was in the spirit, and he saw God with the book and a strong angel called out who is worthy to open the book. What I see is God on the throne, the four beasts, and the 24 elders.

John wept because there was, the Greek word Oudeis no man, no one, nothing at all that was worthy to open the book. No heavenly beings in heaven, No living being on earth, and No being who has lived and is now dead and buried under the earth was worthy to open the book.

I do not see John looking for anyone I see he was told no one was worthy. All I see that were there was God, the Lamb/Jesus, the four beasts, and the 24 elders when the Lamb/Jesus took the book the four beasts and the 24 elders, fell down before the Lamb/Jesus and with golden vials full of odors/prayers of the saints.

They sang a new song about the Lamb/Jesus "Thou art worthy to take the book" "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" These are the prayers of the saints, not people in heaven.

Then the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Other than the word oudeis translated as no man and the prayers of the saints I do not see any humans there. Then we have verse 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign on the earth, not heaven. My understanding is the Church is not taken to heaven.

This is what I see and understand.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Travels is over for the week!

It's always tough for me to keep up because all my replies and posts are off my cellphone.

I was looking at how the scripture would look using the Greek as you said. "Oudeis , no one"



Here it goes from verses 2-4.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And no one in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.



You see it doesn't change nothing using the Greek word

"Oudeis" translated no one.

And I agree John was in the spirit, but John saw, and was shown visions all throughout Revelation.

And he sought the redeemer which had to be a man in particular locations and one was Heaven.

This took place around the throne!

Revelation 4:1-2. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John describes what he saw and what he heard in a particular place.

I believe that we shall also reign on earth and that shouldn't void our access to Heaven.

Jesus is able to freely go to and from and I believe we will also because in this regard we shall be like him. 1 John 3:2.

Also see Romans 8:16-21.

We're joint heirs with Christ!!

God bless.

oudeis=no one, masculine, ie no man

oudemia=no one, feminine, ie no woman

ouden=none, neuter, ie nothing

Hey Giannis,

Thanks, I included too many words, I went back and the word that was used was oudeis meaning no one. I know you live in and are Greek and it helps to have someone like you on this site. I do not get into every Hebrew or Greek word unless my understanding is fuzzy.

I know this word you said is masculine, but can it be no one, no man, no woman, or nothing as was translated in other New Testament books?

Thanks for being here.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald

The masculine form of "one", "no one", "who, whom, whose" etc is always used in greek when we are generally speaking for a man (male and female), but NOT for a thing, e.g. in Engl. you would say "If one believes in Jesus then THEY are saved", but in greek you say "If one believes in Jesus then HE is saved". Similarly for no one. But as I said not for a thing, only for people.

Hi Giannis,

Thank you!

God bless,

RLW

Neither do I believe that any of us will go to heaven , just reading Isaiah and this Ch 57 verse 13 , it and many others like it , are very clear to me .

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for the reply.

I will be reaching out to you hopefully sometime today after work.

God bless.

Ronald Whittemore I hope you don't mind if I try to answer this question. You asked "Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven"? I would say ( Rev 15:2) is showing us a picture of the church, or elect in heaven after they had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his mark. Also in ( Rev 19:7-9) the marriage of the Lamb is come, wouldn't this be the wedding supper for the bride of Christ, the church? which would have to take place (after the rapture) of the church. We see that the bride, or church comes back with Christ (FROM HEAVEN) in ( Rev 19:14) This verse tells us the armies that followed Him upon white horses are clothed in ((fine linen, white and clean)). Now we look back to the wife at the marriage supper in ( Rev 19:8) This verse tells us the wife is arrayed in ((fine linen, clean and white)). So the bride, the church are a part of the armies in heaven that follow Him to the earth on white horses. These verses don't say the words we go to heaven, but they sound like we do go to heaven. Blessings.

Part 2

Jesus told His 12 at the last supper, Matt. 26:29 Mark. 14:25, He would not drink of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new in my Father's kingdom, in the kingdom of God. This can only be either when Jesus sets the kingdom up for the 1000 years, or when all is made new, a new earth and a new heaven, but it would be on earth not in heaven.

If we use fine linen, clean and white to identify the Church as the armies coming out of heaven we see in scripture many times the angels appear in white, white linen, and pure and white linen, Matt. 28:3 John 20:12 Acts 1:10 Rev. 16:6 and many more, and the bride in Rev. 19:8 the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, is this just the righteousness of the Church or all the saints?

The earth is round and the gathering of the elect/saints will come from all over as a delegation meeting Jesus in the air as He is coming down to set up the kingdom as we see in Matt. 24:31. The armies in heaven are angels coming with Jesus the gathering will happen on the way down.

I know I probably did not touch on all, there are so many parts. I hope this shows some of my understanding, but I still do not see where anyone is taken to heaven.

Thanks for your reply, if we inspire each other in love to study it is good.

God bless,

RLW

I'm with you on this RLW. I believe that the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth is the true Sabbath and that the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord and , the meek shall inherit the earth . There are many verses that clearly indicate Gods Kingdom will be on earth . I don't think anyone could change my mind on this as I have not come to this conclusion lightly and I've been reading the Bible for approx 30 years . Just so everyone who reads this knows , I'm not interested in debating this as I'm convinced about it , I just wanted to give my support to RLW on this matter . Thanks and love in Christ to all .

Ronald thanks again for your reply. You think ( Mt. 26:29) means the Father's kingdom, the kingdom of God will be on the earth? What about ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17) v16 "the dead in Christ shall rise first" Where will these dead that rise first be taken? v17 Tells us "We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ((in the clouds)) to meet the Lord in the air". We meet Him in the clouds. ( 1 Cor. 15:50) Tells us "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" ( 1 Cor. 15:51-55) v52 "and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED) ( 2 Thess. 2:1) Now we beseech you brethren, by the ((coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him)) We are gathered together unto Him in the clouds. ( Mt. 24:29-31) v30 "and they shall see the Son of man ((COMING IN THE CLOUDS)) of heaven with power and great glory". v31 Tells us "And he shall send his angels with a (great sound of a trumpet) and they shall (GATHER TOGETHER) his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other". We are gathered together to meet the Lord in the clouds, we are changed because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, He returns FROM heaven AFTER THIS riding a white horse, so wouldn't it be logical that the ones who met Him in the clouds are the ones who come back to the earth with Him? Now on the fine linen? You posted 3 verses comparing them to ( Rev. 19:8) and ( Rev. 19:14) Sorry Ronald but those 3 verses are not saying the same thing. You posted ( Mt. 28:3) ( Jn. 20:12) and ( Acts. 1:10) But ( Rev. 19:8,14) both say (fine linen, clean and white) The same words are in these 2 verses for a reason. Every Word of God is pure. I believe it to be in context especially with the verses, (and events) being so close together, to see it otherwise I think is taking these verses out of context, therefore loosing the true meaning. ( Rev. 19:15) Even tells us He (treadeth) or ends the wrath of Almighty God. Blessings.

Hey Jinbob,

Part 1

I do not mind one bit, I feel we are all here for each other. Revelation is to me hard, I feel some things have not been revealed and the events that were shown to John are not written in chronological order. Chapter 15 starts with a sign in heaven of the seven angels having the last plagues filled with the wrath of God.

My understanding is this is after the seven trumpets and with Matt. 24:31 1 Thess. 4:16 1 Cor. 15:52 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 shows Jesus returns on the last trump so Jesus is on the earth at this time with the ones in the first resurrection. I do not know of any scripture that says Jesus goes back up to heaven after He comes down to reign as King.

So, in Rev. 15:2 where and when is this vision John is seeing? Does Rev. 15:2-3 say this group is the Church or is this event the same event we see in Rev. 20:4 after the battle and Satan is locked up? Rev. 15:4 it is talking about all nations will come and worship the Lord. Is this not during the Millenium reign as in Jeremiah 3:17 Zechariah 8:21-22 Isaiah 2:3-4 and more?

Rev. 19:7-9 the marriage of the Lamb is come, does not mean at that moment it means all that must be fulfilled for it to happen has been fulfilled, the wife has made herself ready. So when will the marriage and the marriage supper happen? In Rev.19:9 it says "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." Is this only the Church? How are we to understand Rev. 21:9-27?

See Part 2

Ronald Thank you for your reply. The book of Revelation is hard to get the full picture, but if we all work together at honestly seeking, and searching for the truth maybe we can understand it eventually. You think these verses are all the same event? ( Mt. 24:31) ( 1 Thess. 4:16) ( 1 Cor. 15:52) ( Rev. 11:15) You also added ( Rev. 19:11-15) with them. If you look at them all they have at least one thing in common? All except for ( Rev. 19:11-15) does not have a sound of a trumpet, All the others do. When Jesus returns to gather together His elect, the church, we meet Him in the air, in the clouds as in ( 1 Thess. 4:16) there will be a sound of a trumpet. When Jesus returns from heaven, AFTER the marriage supper of the Lamb He will be riding a white horse WITH the church, He will come to the earth to judge and make war. ( Rev. 19:11-16) This return starts the 1000 year reign on earth. And there will be NO SOUND OF A TRUMPET. Ronald ( Rev. 15:2) and ( Rev. 20:4) cannot be the same event. When Rev.15:2 takes place the wrath of God follows it. (Rev.20:4) takes place during the Millenium, Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit in ( Rev. 20:3) The 1000 years are expired and Satan is loosed out of his prison in ( Rev. 20:7) Now to (Rev.15:4) Tells us "for all nations shall come and worship before thee' All nations will come to worship before Him when He returns to the earth riding a white horse, that will start His Millennial reign on the earth. Rev. Ch15 takes place in heaven. Ch.16 is the wrath of God being poured on the disobedient ones left on the earth. The (harvest) of the church, (the rapture) is just before this in ( Rev 14:14-16) Then you say "the marriage of the Lamb is come" does not mean at that moment. The marriage supper happens just before the return of Jesus riding the white horse. And ( Rev. 19:11) Tells us "And I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse" This return He comes from heaven (TO THE EARTH) (with the church) to reign for 1000 years. Thanks Ronald

Thanks

From your posts, please forgive me if I have misunderstood, you do not believe in a pre-trib. rapture, but you believe in a post-trib. rapture. Both views believe the Church will be taken to heaven just at different times. My understanding of scripture is when Jesus returns, He does not go back up to heaven, the first resurrection, the gathering of the saints/elect will be here on earth, in and around Jerusalem not in heaven, Zech. 14:4.

My understanding is this will be after the 3.5 years of the tribulation of Satan, the beast from the bottomless pit, and the false prophet. In my understanding, Rev. 11:15-19 is the trumpet sounding for Rev.19:11-15. That is why I understand Matt. 24:31 1 Thess. 4:16 1 Cor. 15:52 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 as the same event.

In Rev. 15 it starts with another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, the same wording as Rev. 12:1. A vision, and as the woman was not physically in heaven my understanding of Rev. 15 we cannot assume this is in heaven. We see the judgment of those who will be reigning with Jesus for the 1000 years described the same way as those in Rev. 15.

In Rev. 15:4 my understanding is God's judgments are made manifest, apparent as we see next the angels going out to pour them out. This will not happen until after Jesus returns and the first resurrection. Rev. 14 my understanding is a dropping of the sword, what I mean is the army is prepared and ready to proceed and the general drops the sword to go and we see the results of the battle in vs. 20, Isaiah 6:3 Rev. 19:15-18

Those who are in the first resurrection will be changed into their incorruptible bodies when Jesus returns, 1 Cor. 15:51-54. This will happen when Jesus returns but they are not taken to heaven they will reign here on earth with Jesus for 1000 years the rest of the dead will be judged, Rev. 20:11-15.

I know we differ; we do agree on no pre-trib., but I still do not see people being taken to heaven.

God bless,

RLW

Hello yes , I do believe that there will be many Christians alive during the very end days of these kingdoms of men . These Bible references , in the order I post them , seem very clear to me , Galatians Ch 3 , verses 15-29 , Genesis Ch 12 verse 7 , Genesis Ch 13 verse 14-17 ( notice God says 'for ever ' and remember that Abraham himself never possessed the land ) , Genesis Ch 15 verse 7 and Genesis Ch 24 verse 7 . Who are the elect of Matthew ch 24 verse 22 and Mark ch 13 verse 20 ? I believe that we Christians are the elect , made up of Jews and gentiles of all creeds from all generations , all of Isaiah Ch 65 but in particular verse 9 and verses 22+23 . If God's Kingdom is not on earth then what is Ezekiel from Ch 40 onwards talking about ? These are just the first references that come to mind for me , there are loads more which I'm sure you already know about . Eventually as you know ,God will be all in all, where this will be I don't know . One day we shall all understand everything , until then ? There are sites like this for us to provoke each other into deeper study which I think feeds our faith , as long as we can continue to be polite and respectful of each other then we should continue to provoke each other in Christian love .

Hi Jema,

Well said, I agree there will be Christians alive but we see many will be killed for not taking the mark. When Jesus returns and sets this kingdom up, scriptures like those you listed, the land that was promised to Abraham will be amazing. We also see there will be a remnant of Israel that their eyes will be opened, Romans 11:25-26.

We see people living full long lives and animals in peace as they were first created. I am not sure but I believe Abraham and others from the Old Testament will be in the first Resurrection. As you said one day we will understand everything.

Hebrews 11:8-11 Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. We are shown this city that Abraham will see in Rev. 21:9-27 that God and Jesus the Lamb will be the temple. It will be after the new earth when we see it coming down.

I am with you, if we out of love are respectful to each other and humble and I agree the more we are in God's word it feeds our faith.

God bless,

RLW

I believe that the last days before Jesus returns are going to be very stressful indeed . I feel that this is why we need to study the Bible every day , if we are alive just before Christ returns we are going to see and experience some awful things , our faith needs to be rock solid to ensure that we don't fall into temptation and start trusting in man to save us from the tribulations and the hour of temptation that shall come upon the whole world . Of course , God's plan of salvation through Christ is very simple and easy to understand , it is the bread of life to us , but also as we study the Bible and see the beautiful patterns and symmetry in God's word and recognise His power and wisdom to save , to save us , we feel closer to Him and learn to trust Him more and more every day , our faith is increased and we should , with His help , be able to withstand the coming trials and tribulations . Remember what Jesus said to Ananias about Paul ? Acts Ch 9 verse 16 . We are not always going to have easy lives in Christ , Paul certainly didn't , he suffered all kinds of physical discomfort and abuse . Did his faith fail even though he was often in dire straights ? I hope God will bless us all with strong faith in Him and love for Him and each other . Love in Christ .

Hi Jema

So true,

You may have done this before but if you haven't, I think you will find it worthy of a study of the word patience. It is different from faith, but it is very valuable. Look up the meaning and verses in the bible where it is used and the context of the verses around it. In the conversations about the end times that have been going on, this word is emphasized in Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. We will need patience if we are living when the beast shows up. Many things come out of patience.

God bless,

RLW