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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 214292
This is a question for those that side on the pre-tribulation rapture point of view. I am honestly asking this question, probably out of concern more than anything. What would it take, how far into the tribulation would you say the pre-tribulation rapture wasn't going to happen? Would it take: ( Mark 13)
12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Or
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Or
The Mark of the Beast being implemented?
Please think on these things, because our time is short. At the least, have a marker to when you'll be willing to accept things aren't taking place like you thought, and prepare your heart and mind for what is to come. In Christ, God Bless
Only God knows how far into tribulation. He only gave us the signs of the end time and the beginning of sorrows. The most important message Jesus was saying BE READY and TELL OTHERS. whether its pre or mid he's coming back and soon. God bless you hope this encourages you.
It does ChildoftheKing. I'm beginning to learn, it's not about whether someone is pre, mid or post, but that they know the Word of God period. I think if a person knows God's Word, they will be prepared for whatever takes place. God Bless!
Zechariah 13:8 shows how two thirds perish and the other one third of national Israel go through the fire and are thus saved. Again; I will refer to those countless multitudes who go through this time of testing; as either new believers or those left behind (or both).
I referred before to many who are not producing fruit at present. Many I believe are hiding their light or have been rendered out of service by Satan because of legal access due to sin. This would include even Laodicians I would say. Fear of death ( Hebrews 2:15) has been a snare for many; it is something that the blood of Christ through the Spirit can make us overcome. It is surely true that some will when push comes to shove proclaim Christ; it is the cares of this world that for now have ensnared them. Many; of course will fall away and we are not to use such rationale as an excuse to continue in sin trusting that God will show mercy in such a way. The verses I've quoted show how God will reach all His sheep. This is why I am such a proponent of the Pre Trib rapture. True; some who aren't bold now and producing fruit may have it forced on them through the Tribulation (apparently meaing Tribulum or a way to rapidly bring wheat threshed to harvest). It has been proposed that the barley represents the early harvest or firstfruits; and the wheat or main harvest is later. I will get into that if there is an interest at another time and try to give references to others who have worked on that theory. There certainly is no room to be some sort of macho man thinking we will "brave it out" in the "not so bad" first half of the Trib. These are events including a plague that cannot be stopped to wipe out 1/4 of man. Whoever God chooses to purge this way I don't wish it on anyone nor want to endure it myself. Again; it is the demonic attacks on man directly and unrestrained evil where death and hell do prevail ( Rev. 6:8) which contradict ( Matt. 16:18; compare with Daniel 7:9.
Richard, wow...that is so true. It's funny, because we agree on so much and we're from different camps on the Tribulation. It seems to me, based on your comments that you're prepared either way, no need for any worries of mine. That does set my mind at ease knowing that there are people of the pre trib camp that are prepared no matter what. Thank you. I actually needed that. God Bless!!
Tribulation: Declaration vs Preaching the Gospel today.
In today's dispensation (if you don't mind me using this time frame as a proponent of that terminology in the church age at present) we preach on the death; burial and resurrection of Christ. We therefore are "blessed" as Christ referred to Thomas of those who have believed and not seen ( John 20:29). There is a general call to the crowd and to those chosen (such as the more intimate discussions between Christ and His Disciples into the meanings of parables; for instance and other matters).
In the Tribulation as noted in my last post by Revelation 6 there is no need to explain these things; only a declaration to the world of judgments already transpiring and to come; a sort of "signs and wonders" prophetic battle between the side of God's angels and the demons before Christ's final battle settles the score once and for all. I proposed that the Rapture is to wake up the Jewish nation; and specifically activation of the 144,000 for just such a purpose to fulfill the original commission to reach all the cities of Israel which cannot happen until that time ( Matthew 10:23). It is odd that until the time of Christ's initial stages to take back Jerusalem ( Zech. 12:12 but also apparently alluded to on a larger scale in Matthew 24:30) that the Jews will not come to full realization of who Christ is. They at least are deluded until the midpoint of the Tribulation as to the fact Antichrist is not their Messiah and since the world at large knows His identity at the sixth seal it may be that they don't realize they have a need for Him to be their personal Savior but they may start understanding His Lordship over the earth. Thus; I would look at the Tribulation temple to be one that isn't wrong as to the ceremonial aspects; since Antichrist himself desecrates it. Psalm 50:8 seems to show this; albeit many other verses show God's disdain at such things. Those who don't know God will worship the Beast and die.
Concluding thoughts for now on Rapture and reasons for it; as well as Tribulation saints commentary
My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.
The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.
Thoughts on the Rapture and timing as well as reasoning/
Note: I can't find the prequel as it were to this thread; so the audience may be limited. I may get into further discussion on the main discussion area but will try to sum things up here.
A major issue here that I have opened the "can of worms" on is; in regard to just who is identified as those dressed in white garments which were made that way through blood ( Rev. 7:14 referring to robes). It certainly can be expected that the witness of the 144,000 will bring many to faith and willing martyrdom. Other verses referring those whose garments were made white make verses such as Revelation 3:4; and Zechariah 3:3 be contrasted with Ephesians 5:27. For if some in Laodicea are naked among other things; surely anyone with a garment in God's presence is saved; although it is much like Jude 1:23 being saved as though through the fire; or 1 Corinthians 3:15 where one suffers loss and not much remains after their works are burned up by and large. In other words I would argue that to have a garment in the first place we are saved; if we allow sin to spot it then there are certain ramifications; including what I propose as missing the reward of a rapture if indeed it is more than just a salvation prerequisite. I would strongly suggest in these last days; there is little fruit being produced; and the Lord of the harvest is looking for it. He will either purge us to produce more fruit ( John 15:2) or as the same verse indicates we are not His child (producing no fruit) and are eventually cut off. Again; we need to broaden our scope and see those who are unbelievers; those judged more harshly for hearing and rejecting the truth; lukewarm believers and those who are producing much fruit. We must as Hebrews suggest; believe God is a rewarder of those things done for Him ( Heb. 11:6). We also should pay attention to those seeking a better country ( Heb. 11:16) of those who willingly gave up their lives for this.
As to the aforementioned concepts; there is certainly a benefit to heartfelt prayer and being a "Berean" as to reading scripture.
We may not escape all things to come (at least for the present age) but if we are NOT wise things certainly can sneak up on us. Most are not (let's face it) concerned about a worldwide false peace being such a great deception FIRST; but clearly that will be the effect mesmerizing the earth after the 1st Seal. It is important to keep in mind that EVERYONE (sorry about shouting but seems important) whose name is NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast. This is why we need to be cautious if we claim to be a Christian and are not testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith; fearing God; and obeying His commandments (according to their full interpretation under grace in the N.T.) Love and obedience go hand in hand; and anyone who doesn't get past the thorns and such of this world system and doesn't take their own helplessness seriously WILL fall away (sorry did it again). Right now it is heresy that is twisting the minds of many so called believers and mark my words these individuals will by far be our greatest cross to bear as the false worldwide religion comes to fruition (again I believe not until the church is removed in its entirety as the gates of Hell will not ultimately squelch out the light of the few individuals who remain in those sad congregations).
I am sure you are aware of the imperative of working until He comes. Seeing how the predictions tht 1948 was the last generation has caused so much error in calculating what year He must return by (my concept is that the last generation may be about to begin when Isreal overcomes it's immediate neighbors such as seen in Psalm 83) we see how many have fallen away.
I would also say that the Philadelphia church has "little strength"; the remnant is small and appears insignificant. I expect the real revival in the Tribulation.
Thank you Richard...and...LOL, I don't mind the caps...LOL I agree with what you wrote, very true. If we're not standing on the rock, our foundation of Jesus Christ, we're like those that built their house upon the sand, Matthew 7
27 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
Amen Brother, thank you for your response. God Bless
I won't belabor the point; but those who believe in a Post Trib viewpoint may think that Antichrist is indeed Christ riding on the white horse in the first seal. Also; if we look at the Rapture as a reward issue; with later resurrections we see there is a sort of phased or multiprong approach; i.e. both a "Pre-Trib" rapture and subsequent events occur.
Seeing white garments on the great multitude makes me think that it is certainly a strong possiblility that those who are not praying (agonia or agonize) to be worthy to escape all things to come to pass and escape (Luke; see also Rev. 3:10) will be left behind to render works of good fruit; which they have not attained post salvation now. That would be characteristic of the Laodician crowd who literally would be poor; blind; naked etc after the present delusion of the "prosperity gospel".
Basically; what I am saying is that BOTH realities could be the case. There isn't a later "rapture" so to speak; unless we refer to those who survive until the end of the Tribulation. The fate of the 144,000 could be a rapture; they are preserved from God's judgments and martyrdom it seems although it isn't certain; we know that those who are faithful help sustain them; nonetheless there is great suffering with the scorching sun; and general hatred no doubt. It likely speaks of the parable of those who visit the prisoners and show compassion; that isn't a work based Gospel but would speak of conditions during the Tribulation. The firstfruits began with Christ and many who came out of their graves and appeared post-Resurrection; then those who are there at His coming (which also is multifaceted as we see differences between the Rapture event and His 2nd Coming). There are; of course many parallels to the Jewish Wedding feast of 7 days and a 7 year Trib; as well as other patterns in scripture.
There has always been both those that escape judgment and those who go through it and are purged such as Lot.
I would have to disagree with you Richard, that the post trib camp might believe the anti christ is Jesus, can't happen. Because, the post trib camp knows that the anti christ will be revealed before the Lord Jesus returns. We know he'll be claiming to be God. And, the anti christ cannot return as Jesus does, in the sky, where the world will see him (from east to west). When the anti christ is revealed, you'll have to be told about it.
Love your comments, thank you again for responding. God Bless
In other words; the the woman riding the Beast is a false one world religion that kills believers first; then Satan takes over and destroys it in order to enforce worship for himself; two seperate events as I see it.
It certainly can be said as happened say in Germany in the 1930's that family members betraying others has been a repeated theme of persecution; whether with dictatorships; or in many Mideast countries today.
As to the other two things; I will repeat what I've said quite often that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church; but the saints (in general) will be overcome and martyred during the Tribulation which God Himself must cut short or no one would survive. He who restrains must be held back until he is removed (I would contend with the explanation of that being the method in which the Spirit works with the gifts and calling in the current church age). It is certainly not out of the question that as Daniel states "only the wise will understand" that indeed the man of sin may be evident to God's people before he becomes world dictator and perhaps that fits into the "midnight hour" parable as a sign.
The mark of the Beast is something accompanying worship of Satan and the image set up (which people likely will have some technological way to reproduce). If we take the Tribulation in basic chronological order we see seal judgments first; then sealing the 144,000; then after God's 2 prophets minister they are destroyed and resurrected and the false prophet imitates similar miracles such as fire coming down from the sky. I would strongly state that the covenant which is now likely in initial stages will be "confirmed with many" as Daniel 9:27 states. The first seal or false peace is the first delusion sent by God so those who don't LOVE the truth will be damned. That is clearly judgment as all seals are with Christ Himself opening them personally.
I will state that we all must be ready to die for His names' sake; as it is rapidly getting to where all will hate us from all nations and those who think they believe God will think as the scripture states that they are doing HIm a favor by killing us. False religion I believe comes first
Thank you so much for responding Richard. You summed it up quite well. I suppose my concerns are the many warnings of deception in the end times. I believe that the pre trib rapture is a deception. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that those who do believe in a pre trib rapture will fall into the deception that the anti christ is Jesus, because they don't believe they will see the anti christ, as they believe they will be raptured before then. So, my plea to them (pre trib camp) was to at least know when to say "uncle" so to speak, when they begin to see things come to pass, and they are still here, to switch gears and prepare (prepare in mind, spirit and soul). If a person takes the time to read the opening of the seals....(this is during the tribulation) and you can read in detail further in the book of Revelation events that take place during the tribulation concerning the mark, I believe that is something you need time to prepare your heart for.
Hi Tammy. If I might ask a couple of questions: you wrote, "If a person takes the time to read the opening of the seals....(this is during the tribulation)...", are you referring to the Great Tribulation? Or, is the "opening of the seals" a part of the tribulations & trials we might all face each day ( John 16:33)? It's important to clarify the difference, as it can get confusing as to what someone is understanding when the word 'tribulation' is mentioned. Thank you.
Thank you for the question Chris, I should have been more clear, yes, the Great Tribulation, not a general Tribulation that all go through. I believe the seals spoken of in Rev 6 are during the Great Tribulation. I hope that answered your question? God Bless
Yes Tammy, my question was a lead question as to how then should we define the Great Tribulation? In the comment I referred to, you asked, "a question for those that side on the pre-tribulation rapture point of view". When I read your questions there, I sensed that the problem we have, lies in our understanding of what the Great Tribulation is & entails. I would think that those who subscribe to a post-trib rapture position, probably believe that the Great Tribulation involves both an extensive & more intense series of sufferings that might come upon all (i.e. the Church & others on the Earth). And to those who subscribe to a pre-trib postion, probably believe that the Great Tribulation IS the time of God's Wrath upon the Earth.
I'm aware that a few who have written on this & hold to the post-trib position, understand that God's Wrath is only poured out at the latter part, i.e. a post-trib suffering only to the unbelievers. But I ask, can it be that God's Wrath poured out is actually seen in the Great Tribulation? When we look at those explicit passages in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 (specifically on the heavenly appointed judgements, shown as the Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl Judgements), how should we understand this narrative given to us? If in the post-trib position, these judgements probably happen in very quick succession as part of God's Wrath (post-tribulation). If in the pre-trib camp, then these judgements happen over a period of time, even during anti-Christ's reign, & culminating at the final outpouring of God's Wrath, after which Jesus returns for the battle at Megiddo.
The reasons that I believe that Revelation 6 to 11 declare God's Wrath, rather than a much later time, is due to the nature of the sufferings, the origin of those calamities, & Revelation 6:17 itself declares, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These calamities appear to me as much greater than what we today have seen in history past or are seeing now.
Thank you Chris for your comment. I think you have a lot of great points. I'm no scholar concerning eschatology, so some of this is my belief in what I read. I think the book of Revelation is not written in the normal chronological way the other books of the Bible are written. I see segments that are retold in a different way with additional details of an event. I do believe that Revelation 14 shows that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest. So, to me, everything up to and including the mark of the beast, the killing of the saints is part of the great tribulation. Then, in chapter 15, after Jesus has gathered His saints (in chapter 14) it says the 7 last plagues/God's wrath will take place. So to me, it's clear that the great tribulation and God's wrath are two different events. If you read all of Revelation 14 and 15 I think you'll see the same thing. I hope that explained where I am coming from? God bless.
I believe you're correct Tammy, that the Book of the Revelation does not always appear in chronological order & even if we try & read it as such (with our logical, ordered minds), we can't be absolutely certain of the correct sequence of events, seeing that John received this heavenly vision & Word in a manner appointed by the Lord.
But you've directed my reading to Revelation chapter 14, in which you see "that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest". From Revelation 14:6, we read of an angel arriving in the heavens with "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth". And then further down in verses 12 & 13, we read of "the patience of the saintsthat keep the commandments of God". I assume that these are the verses that convinces you that all believers (saints) will still be here, i.e. the Church pre- & during the Great Tribulation. Yet, if we take the angelic presentation of the Gospel (obviously not needed for the Church, but for the unbelievers at that time of anti-Christ's reign), then maybe the saints of verse 12 are those who were converted through the delivered Gospel, the Lord giving these others opportunity to repent & believe, who may already have taken the beast's mark, and to be saved. Just a thought.
And finally, verses 14 to 20 show the harvesting of the Earth. But who are harvested? In my reading, the harvest is directed to the haters & rejecters of God & are forthwith cast into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (verse 20). Now, even if the order of events may seem unclear, at least those whom the Lord is referring to, is clear. And yes, both Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 6:17 declare that these sufferings do come from God (from His Wrath) & not resulting from natural occurrences that we see at present; that this time IS God's Wrath being poured out & not something felt at the end. So will the present Church be saved from this Wrath?
Thanks for your comments Chris, you made a lot of good points. I liked the point you made about the angels proclaiming God's Word, and maybe the saints mentioned were converted by the angels. But we have this: 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul says:
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul is stating to these Christians, Jesus and the gathering of saints will not happen until the anti christ is revealed.
That means Christians will go through the Great Tribulation/Mark of the Beast. I believe the ones mentioned are those that didn't take the mark and remained alive (were not beheaded) (Those that were beheaded are in heaven given white robes Rev 7:14 and Rev 6:11)
And, the harvest of the earth, I believe is the parable of the wheat and Tares. You'll notice in Rev 16 and 19 there are two different times the sickle is thrust in, the wheat and tares. I believe Rev 16 is the rapture of the saints (the wheat), the first time the sickle is thrust in. The second time the sickle is thrust in is the Tares.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
I will start with your last question first, as I said in the last comment I made, as to where the saints are at the beginning of God's wrath, they are raptured. Rev 14 shows this, two sickles are thrust in, at the harvest, the first sickle is the rapture of the saints, the second sickle are the tares.
Your next question was about when the Great Tribulation begins and comes under the anti christ. I have never tried to pin point when exactly during the Tribulation the anti christ rises up. I believe we are currently in the "beginnings of sorrows". What the event is that kick starts the Great Tribulation, I don't know, my best guess is the persecusion of the saints. When will the anti christ rise up, I don't know...I just know he will, when he does, I'll know it. I know that God shortens the time of the Great Trib, God said if He didn't, no flesh would be saved. I have always categorized the great tribulation as the "tribulation of the saints", even though the world goes through it. This is the time that the saints are killed. And, I categorize the Wrath as the "punishment of the non believers". The saints are not appointed to God's Wrath.
Hi Tammy. Revelation 14:14-20: the verses aren't clear as to what Jesus reaped when He thrust in His sickle. I think you have assumed that it was believers that were harvested (or, raptured), & the angel clearly thrust in his sickle to gather the vine/grapes fit for destruction. The way I read those verses, is that the Lord harvested & the angel gathered. Even though a sickle is used for slashing a plant, it seems that it is used here as a symbol for gathering the harvest, that which the Lord performed. Can you read those verses in that way & see if that makes sense - since the Lord's harvesting doesn't describe the crops for harvest, it then has to be assumed that the whole job was for gathering the wicked together. And even here, the timeline of events appears out of sync. You may feel I'm laboring this point unnecessarily, but these are all small parts of eschatology that make up the whole account. Misunderstanding something here or applying the verses in another way, could well mean that we set off on another track.
As for God's Wrath, I agree that it is poured out because of the wickedness of unbelievers & for unbelievers only. But the matter that we discussed earlier was, 'is the Great Tribulation synonymous with God's Wrath, or merely a greater outpouring of horrors that comes on the whole world?' I shared that the Great Tribulation appears to be God's Wrath (as shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 & beyond) & we read this in Revelation 6:17 & Revelation 15:1, which fall upon men over a long period of time. And if it be God's Wrath from the time that His Restrainer is removed & the anti-Christ is revealed, then the Church (the true children of God) are snatched away before this time of torment.
Anyway Tammy, I see that our differences largely depend on the definition of these biblical terms & the verses that support them - hence the nature of the pre or post trib position are both valid depending on how we define these terms with their Scriptures. GBU.
Chris, concerning the harvest, spoken of in Rev 14, where the two sickles are thrust in, we read in Matthew 13 about the "harvest" where angels (the reapers) gather separately the wheat and the tares. That is the same event.
The first sickle that was thrust in in Rev 14 isn't a wrath, nor does it say it's a wrath or punishment:
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
But
The second sickle is clearly a wrath and it says so
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
I have seen this connection made between Matthew 13:24-30 & Revelation 14:14-20 before, Tammy, but as you study those passages, you may notice some clear differences. To give them much detail here would take too long, so I'll highlight them, to show that these are not the same events.
Matthew 13:24-30 (with the parable's interpretation given in vv 36-43). The Sower is the Lord Who planted His Seed (which brought forth His children) in His field (the Church, His Body). But the enemy (Satan) also has his way & planted his seed (of unregenerate & evil hearts) amongst the good seed. If this was the world spoken of & not the Church, then identification between the good & evil would be easy. Of course, as they grew together, they appeared the same, until the tares showed their true color. Using Jesus' instruction in Matthew 18:15-17, those tares that could be easily seen amongst them can be exposed for who they are, but often they can't be seen until Christ's examination, judgement, & removal. The believers will be gathered by the reapers at the harvest unto Him & the imposters burned with fire. Given that this parable was spoken amongst the Jews, there could be application to those who were righteous under the Law ("children of the kingdom") & the unrighteous amongst them.
Revelation 14:14-20, the Reaper is the Lord (v16) and the angel who had the sickle did the gathering. What was reaped & what was gathered? "..the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are ripe". These are not the tares in Matthew, but are shown as being slashed off the vine, & that at their crushing, their juice (as blood) came out in volumes as a result of Christ's Judgement; maybe at that great final battle when the enemies of Christ are slaughtered ( Revelation 19:17-21).
The parable of the wheat & the tares is for "the end of this world" ( Matthew 13:40), not post-trib, nor pre-trib. So I don't read this parable as you do & in comparing it with Revelation 14.
So, Chris, when the bible speaks of an event in two different books, that both happen in the end times, both called the harvest, both have angels reaping souls/people, both reaping two different times, this is not the same event? Because it's not worded exactly the same?
The Bible also gives a different wording on how to be saved. Sometimes it says by grace you are saved through faith. Sometimes it says, those who call upon the Lord will be saved, Sometimes it says to confess with your mouth and believe with your heart and you'll be saved. It's all the same thing, worded differently.
You're comment that the two events, in Matthew and Revelation, aren't the same events because they are worded differently....doesn't make sense to me. How many times in the bible is the rapture worded differently? Every single time. Matthew and Luke tell the story of Jesus' birth differently, since Luke doesn't mention the wise men, is Luke's account a different birth? Nope
I'm sorry to say, Chris, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. God Bless
Your points are well taken Tammy. It's not just the differing words (i.e. wheat, tares, clusters of grapes) that are significant. It is also the application as to when & where these judgements are performed (& we can note several judgements made during those final days, whether of Reward, Great Tribulation, the Rapture, of Israel, or surviving Gentiles, of the anti-Christ, Satan & his angels). Anyway, we are not alone in this; there are many other interpretations to just these two passages, which may or may not be closer to the Truth. The benefit of hindsight (when prophecy has been given & we see their fulfilment in the Bible or in our world), is always much more accurate, even though we can still find disagreement. So these passages, like the matter of pre or post tribulation rapture, can never be resolved until the final outcome/evidence, yet we are told to be watchful & careful in our lives. But why people lean to one or the other(s) positions of the Rapture should be carefully considered as part of our examination of the Scriptures & this is what I hope readers here would be doing & also waiting on the Lord's Help.
Thanks for your time Tammy - I have appreciated it & I think we'll close off this subject here, finding it beneficial to provoke our further search of the Scriptures. Every blessing sister.
TammyC You are right Tammy. Also If we look at ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and compare it with ( Mt. 24:29-31) we're told by pre-trib believers these two events are not the same, yet they have several things in common. (1) The Lord descends from heaven. (2) A sound of a trump, or trumpet. (3) He comes In the clouds. (4) There is a gathering together. The number 1 pre-tribulation rapture verse parallels perfectly with the verses in Mt. 24:29-31 that say "Immediately after the tribulation" the (Son of man) (comes in the clouds) with a great (sound of a trumpet) to (gather together) His elect. Many if not all pre-tribulation rapture believers will say that ( Mt. 24:29-31) is the same event as the return of Jesus riding a white horse in ( Rev. 19:11-16), but if we read them and do a little studying on these verses we see that there is no way these are the same events. But ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and ( Mt. 24:29-31) are the same events. (context matters) Truth matters. Thank you, Tammy. Blessings.
Matthew 13:30 Let them grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The field is the world, both the seeds of wheat and the seeds of tares are planted together, they grow together and are harvested together, but one goes to the fire and the other to the barn.
During Christ time everyone was associated with farming, today not many know much of anything about farming.
The tares are weeds, yet they also bear seed, the farmer burned the weeds to destroy their seed; so they, the weeds, would not keep multiplying, the wheat is gather into the barn to be replanted and thus multiplying.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
Christ is the SEED, the SEED (wheat) is gather into the barn and replanted so it will multiply.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must go again (after your harvested) and prophesy again before many peoples, and nations and tongues.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (the SEED) died anymore (you died with Christ): for they (the SEED) are EQUAL unto the angels; and are the children (the SEED) of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION (you were raised with Christ) ...
the new creation the new SEED.
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (the harvested SEED), saith the Lord (our Father), MY SPIRIT that is upon thee (Christ, the WORD, the SEED, and the WORDS (seed) that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED forever.
You're right Donna, not many of us know about farming these days. But, the Lord taught the Word so that even the most simple people could understand it. God is so loving, He made His Word so simple, children can understand it. That is true love. God isn't going to make His word so difficult that you have to know Greek and Hebrew or look in other books to figure out what His Word is conveying. God is so good.
God didn't make his word easy to understand if it were easy they wouldn't be thousands of different beliefs.
He made each of us a part of his body.
He brings us together so each can add their gift to the collective understanding of his word.
There are some he brings that understand Greek, some understand history, some understand prophecies, some understand prayer, all have a part in our coming to truth.
A large part of the parables are ingrained in farming and husbandry; my great grandparents, my grandparents, my parents
were farmers, I have lived on the farm and farmed all my life.
I have seen the wheat and tares growing together, at harvest the labours are sent into the field to gather the crop, some go ahead and gather out of the field the noxious weeds, place them on a flatbed trailer and carry them to the end of the field and burn them, so the seed of that unwanted weed doesn't propagate itself.
The wheat is put in the barn, to be used latter, as food for man and beast, but also to be replanted to propagate itself.
The parable depicts these two kinds of seed, one the WORD OF GOD of God, the other the deception and false teachings of Satan.
These seeds of Satan abide in our CARNAL mind, each person is the vineyard of God, the labours are the angles, spiritual messengers, that harvest the seeds, they are ministers of FIRE.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels SPIRIT; his ministers a FLAMING FIRE.
They gather the seeds of Satan; the carnal mine, that is enmity to the WORD, and they destroy those seeds by the FIRE OF THE LORD; his WORD, TRUTH, then they gather the wheat into the barn.
This is a ONE on ONE harvest.
Isaiah 27:12 ...and I shall gather (harvest) YOU ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.
The old Darnel, wheat's evil twin, it as the world is intoxicating, and enough of it will kill. We eat the seeds and get dizzy or today a buzz, like the seeds of the world we want more and more, and death is the reward. Like the darnel the world messes with our vision as our reading and studying of the word, the answers from our mind fit better with the world than the answers from the Holy Spirit. They hide amongst the good and only can be identified at the time of harvest.
Donna, you have a lot of good points there. I however believe God did make His word easy to understand, as long as you are coming to it as a child and not a Pharisee. Psalms 119:130 "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple."
If there are things I don't understand in the bible, I set it aside and come back to it later, I pray for understanding.
I have two Strong's sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I can't rationalize taking an English word, going back to Hebrew or Greek, to get the English meaning. I personally believe the KJV transcribers did a good job.
Also, Jesus gives us a lot of information, when the apostles didn't understand what He was teaching, Jesus broke it down for them....and for us.
It actually melts my heart when I think of how God loved us so much, He gave us His Word, Jesus said that it would be published among all nations. So, everyone, from the farmer to the King of England could read His Word, and if they have eyes to see and ears to hear, they might also understand.
TammyC Thats a really important question to ask. I honestly think we are much farther along in the Lastdays timeline than many Christians think we are. I believe we are living the time period called "the beginning of sorrows" in ( Mt. 24:8) and ( Mk. 13:8) right now. When the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt.24:15) and ( Mk. 13:14) for then shall be affliction, and great tribulation, ( Mt. 24:21-22) and ( Mk. 13:1920) which is the last 3 1/2 years but will be shortened for the elect's sake. I believe we are living ( Mt. 24:4-8) and ( Mt. 24:9-13) right now! I believe great tribulation will start fairly soon! Thank you Tammy for this post.
12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Or
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Or
The Mark of the Beast being implemented?
Please think on these things, because our time is short. At the least, have a marker to when you'll be willing to accept things aren't taking place like you thought, and prepare your heart and mind for what is to come. In Christ, God Bless
I referred before to many who are not producing fruit at present. Many I believe are hiding their light or have been rendered out of service by Satan because of legal access due to sin. This would include even Laodicians I would say. Fear of death ( Hebrews 2:15) has been a snare for many; it is something that the blood of Christ through the Spirit can make us overcome. It is surely true that some will when push comes to shove proclaim Christ; it is the cares of this world that for now have ensnared them. Many; of course will fall away and we are not to use such rationale as an excuse to continue in sin trusting that God will show mercy in such a way. The verses I've quoted show how God will reach all His sheep. This is why I am such a proponent of the Pre Trib rapture. True; some who aren't bold now and producing fruit may have it forced on them through the Tribulation (apparently meaing Tribulum or a way to rapidly bring wheat threshed to harvest). It has been proposed that the barley represents the early harvest or firstfruits; and the wheat or main harvest is later. I will get into that if there is an interest at another time and try to give references to others who have worked on that theory. There certainly is no room to be some sort of macho man thinking we will "brave it out" in the "not so bad" first half of the Trib. These are events including a plague that cannot be stopped to wipe out 1/4 of man. Whoever God chooses to purge this way I don't wish it on anyone nor want to endure it myself. Again; it is the demonic attacks on man directly and unrestrained evil where death and hell do prevail ( Rev. 6:8) which contradict ( Matt. 16:18; compare with Daniel 7:9.
Agape.
In today's dispensation (if you don't mind me using this time frame as a proponent of that terminology in the church age at present) we preach on the death; burial and resurrection of Christ. We therefore are "blessed" as Christ referred to Thomas of those who have believed and not seen ( John 20:29). There is a general call to the crowd and to those chosen (such as the more intimate discussions between Christ and His Disciples into the meanings of parables; for instance and other matters).
In the Tribulation as noted in my last post by Revelation 6 there is no need to explain these things; only a declaration to the world of judgments already transpiring and to come; a sort of "signs and wonders" prophetic battle between the side of God's angels and the demons before Christ's final battle settles the score once and for all. I proposed that the Rapture is to wake up the Jewish nation; and specifically activation of the 144,000 for just such a purpose to fulfill the original commission to reach all the cities of Israel which cannot happen until that time ( Matthew 10:23). It is odd that until the time of Christ's initial stages to take back Jerusalem ( Zech. 12:12 but also apparently alluded to on a larger scale in Matthew 24:30) that the Jews will not come to full realization of who Christ is. They at least are deluded until the midpoint of the Tribulation as to the fact Antichrist is not their Messiah and since the world at large knows His identity at the sixth seal it may be that they don't realize they have a need for Him to be their personal Savior but they may start understanding His Lordship over the earth. Thus; I would look at the Tribulation temple to be one that isn't wrong as to the ceremonial aspects; since Antichrist himself desecrates it. Psalm 50:8 seems to show this; albeit many other verses show God's disdain at such things. Those who don't know God will worship the Beast and die.
My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.
The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.
Note: I can't find the prequel as it were to this thread; so the audience may be limited. I may get into further discussion on the main discussion area but will try to sum things up here.
A major issue here that I have opened the "can of worms" on is; in regard to just who is identified as those dressed in white garments which were made that way through blood ( Rev. 7:14 referring to robes). It certainly can be expected that the witness of the 144,000 will bring many to faith and willing martyrdom. Other verses referring those whose garments were made white make verses such as Revelation 3:4; and Zechariah 3:3 be contrasted with Ephesians 5:27. For if some in Laodicea are naked among other things; surely anyone with a garment in God's presence is saved; although it is much like Jude 1:23 being saved as though through the fire; or 1 Corinthians 3:15 where one suffers loss and not much remains after their works are burned up by and large. In other words I would argue that to have a garment in the first place we are saved; if we allow sin to spot it then there are certain ramifications; including what I propose as missing the reward of a rapture if indeed it is more than just a salvation prerequisite. I would strongly suggest in these last days; there is little fruit being produced; and the Lord of the harvest is looking for it. He will either purge us to produce more fruit ( John 15:2) or as the same verse indicates we are not His child (producing no fruit) and are eventually cut off. Again; we need to broaden our scope and see those who are unbelievers; those judged more harshly for hearing and rejecting the truth; lukewarm believers and those who are producing much fruit. We must as Hebrews suggest; believe God is a rewarder of those things done for Him ( Heb. 11:6). We also should pay attention to those seeking a better country ( Heb. 11:16) of those who willingly gave up their lives for this.
As to the aforementioned concepts; there is certainly a benefit to heartfelt prayer and being a "Berean" as to reading scripture.
We may not escape all things to come (at least for the present age) but if we are NOT wise things certainly can sneak up on us. Most are not (let's face it) concerned about a worldwide false peace being such a great deception FIRST; but clearly that will be the effect mesmerizing the earth after the 1st Seal. It is important to keep in mind that EVERYONE (sorry about shouting but seems important) whose name is NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast. This is why we need to be cautious if we claim to be a Christian and are not testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith; fearing God; and obeying His commandments (according to their full interpretation under grace in the N.T.) Love and obedience go hand in hand; and anyone who doesn't get past the thorns and such of this world system and doesn't take their own helplessness seriously WILL fall away (sorry did it again). Right now it is heresy that is twisting the minds of many so called believers and mark my words these individuals will by far be our greatest cross to bear as the false worldwide religion comes to fruition (again I believe not until the church is removed in its entirety as the gates of Hell will not ultimately squelch out the light of the few individuals who remain in those sad congregations).
I am sure you are aware of the imperative of working until He comes. Seeing how the predictions tht 1948 was the last generation has caused so much error in calculating what year He must return by (my concept is that the last generation may be about to begin when Isreal overcomes it's immediate neighbors such as seen in Psalm 83) we see how many have fallen away.
I would also say that the Philadelphia church has "little strength"; the remnant is small and appears insignificant. I expect the real revival in the Tribulation.
27 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
Amen Brother, thank you for your response. God Bless
Seeing white garments on the great multitude makes me think that it is certainly a strong possiblility that those who are not praying (agonia or agonize) to be worthy to escape all things to come to pass and escape (Luke; see also Rev. 3:10) will be left behind to render works of good fruit; which they have not attained post salvation now. That would be characteristic of the Laodician crowd who literally would be poor; blind; naked etc after the present delusion of the "prosperity gospel".
Basically; what I am saying is that BOTH realities could be the case. There isn't a later "rapture" so to speak; unless we refer to those who survive until the end of the Tribulation. The fate of the 144,000 could be a rapture; they are preserved from God's judgments and martyrdom it seems although it isn't certain; we know that those who are faithful help sustain them; nonetheless there is great suffering with the scorching sun; and general hatred no doubt. It likely speaks of the parable of those who visit the prisoners and show compassion; that isn't a work based Gospel but would speak of conditions during the Tribulation. The firstfruits began with Christ and many who came out of their graves and appeared post-Resurrection; then those who are there at His coming (which also is multifaceted as we see differences between the Rapture event and His 2nd Coming). There are; of course many parallels to the Jewish Wedding feast of 7 days and a 7 year Trib; as well as other patterns in scripture.
There has always been both those that escape judgment and those who go through it and are purged such as Lot.
Love your comments, thank you again for responding. God Bless
Agape; RIch P
As to the other two things; I will repeat what I've said quite often that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church; but the saints (in general) will be overcome and martyred during the Tribulation which God Himself must cut short or no one would survive. He who restrains must be held back until he is removed (I would contend with the explanation of that being the method in which the Spirit works with the gifts and calling in the current church age). It is certainly not out of the question that as Daniel states "only the wise will understand" that indeed the man of sin may be evident to God's people before he becomes world dictator and perhaps that fits into the "midnight hour" parable as a sign.
The mark of the Beast is something accompanying worship of Satan and the image set up (which people likely will have some technological way to reproduce). If we take the Tribulation in basic chronological order we see seal judgments first; then sealing the 144,000; then after God's 2 prophets minister they are destroyed and resurrected and the false prophet imitates similar miracles such as fire coming down from the sky. I would strongly state that the covenant which is now likely in initial stages will be "confirmed with many" as Daniel 9:27 states. The first seal or false peace is the first delusion sent by God so those who don't LOVE the truth will be damned. That is clearly judgment as all seals are with Christ Himself opening them personally.
I will state that we all must be ready to die for His names' sake; as it is rapidly getting to where all will hate us from all nations and those who think they believe God will think as the scripture states that they are doing HIm a favor by killing us. False religion I believe comes first
God Bless...thanks again for your response.
I'm aware that a few who have written on this & hold to the post-trib position, understand that God's Wrath is only poured out at the latter part, i.e. a post-trib suffering only to the unbelievers. But I ask, can it be that God's Wrath poured out is actually seen in the Great Tribulation? When we look at those explicit passages in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 (specifically on the heavenly appointed judgements, shown as the Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl Judgements), how should we understand this narrative given to us? If in the post-trib position, these judgements probably happen in very quick succession as part of God's Wrath (post-tribulation). If in the pre-trib camp, then these judgements happen over a period of time, even during anti-Christ's reign, & culminating at the final outpouring of God's Wrath, after which Jesus returns for the battle at Megiddo.
The reasons that I believe that Revelation 6 to 11 declare God's Wrath, rather than a much later time, is due to the nature of the sufferings, the origin of those calamities, & Revelation 6:17 itself declares, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These calamities appear to me as much greater than what we today have seen in history past or are seeing now.
But you've directed my reading to Revelation chapter 14, in which you see "that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest". From Revelation 14:6, we read of an angel arriving in the heavens with "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth". And then further down in verses 12 & 13, we read of "the patience of the saintsthat keep the commandments of God". I assume that these are the verses that convinces you that all believers (saints) will still be here, i.e. the Church pre- & during the Great Tribulation. Yet, if we take the angelic presentation of the Gospel (obviously not needed for the Church, but for the unbelievers at that time of anti-Christ's reign), then maybe the saints of verse 12 are those who were converted through the delivered Gospel, the Lord giving these others opportunity to repent & believe, who may already have taken the beast's mark, and to be saved. Just a thought.
And finally, verses 14 to 20 show the harvesting of the Earth. But who are harvested? In my reading, the harvest is directed to the haters & rejecters of God & are forthwith cast into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (verse 20). Now, even if the order of events may seem unclear, at least those whom the Lord is referring to, is clear. And yes, both Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 6:17 declare that these sufferings do come from God (from His Wrath) & not resulting from natural occurrences that we see at present; that this time IS God's Wrath being poured out & not something felt at the end. So will the present Church be saved from this Wrath?
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul is stating to these Christians, Jesus and the gathering of saints will not happen until the anti christ is revealed.
That means Christians will go through the Great Tribulation/Mark of the Beast. I believe the ones mentioned are those that didn't take the mark and remained alive (were not beheaded) (Those that were beheaded are in heaven given white robes Rev 7:14 and Rev 6:11)
And, the harvest of the earth, I believe is the parable of the wheat and Tares. You'll notice in Rev 16 and 19 there are two different times the sickle is thrust in, the wheat and tares. I believe Rev 16 is the rapture of the saints (the wheat), the first time the sickle is thrust in. The second time the sickle is thrust in is the Tares.
I hope this helps Chris.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Your next question was about when the Great Tribulation begins and comes under the anti christ. I have never tried to pin point when exactly during the Tribulation the anti christ rises up. I believe we are currently in the "beginnings of sorrows". What the event is that kick starts the Great Tribulation, I don't know, my best guess is the persecusion of the saints. When will the anti christ rise up, I don't know...I just know he will, when he does, I'll know it. I know that God shortens the time of the Great Trib, God said if He didn't, no flesh would be saved. I have always categorized the great tribulation as the "tribulation of the saints", even though the world goes through it. This is the time that the saints are killed. And, I categorize the Wrath as the "punishment of the non believers". The saints are not appointed to God's Wrath.
Hope that helps. God Bless
As for God's Wrath, I agree that it is poured out because of the wickedness of unbelievers & for unbelievers only. But the matter that we discussed earlier was, 'is the Great Tribulation synonymous with God's Wrath, or merely a greater outpouring of horrors that comes on the whole world?' I shared that the Great Tribulation appears to be God's Wrath (as shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 & beyond) & we read this in Revelation 6:17 & Revelation 15:1, which fall upon men over a long period of time. And if it be God's Wrath from the time that His Restrainer is removed & the anti-Christ is revealed, then the Church (the true children of God) are snatched away before this time of torment.
Anyway Tammy, I see that our differences largely depend on the definition of these biblical terms & the verses that support them - hence the nature of the pre or post trib position are both valid depending on how we define these terms with their Scriptures. GBU.
The first sickle that was thrust in in Rev 14 isn't a wrath, nor does it say it's a wrath or punishment:
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
But
The second sickle is clearly a wrath and it says so
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
This is what I see, and believe
Matthew 13:24-30 (with the parable's interpretation given in vv 36-43). The Sower is the Lord Who planted His Seed (which brought forth His children) in His field (the Church, His Body). But the enemy (Satan) also has his way & planted his seed (of unregenerate & evil hearts) amongst the good seed. If this was the world spoken of & not the Church, then identification between the good & evil would be easy. Of course, as they grew together, they appeared the same, until the tares showed their true color. Using Jesus' instruction in Matthew 18:15-17, those tares that could be easily seen amongst them can be exposed for who they are, but often they can't be seen until Christ's examination, judgement, & removal. The believers will be gathered by the reapers at the harvest unto Him & the imposters burned with fire. Given that this parable was spoken amongst the Jews, there could be application to those who were righteous under the Law ("children of the kingdom") & the unrighteous amongst them.
Revelation 14:14-20, the Reaper is the Lord (v16) and the angel who had the sickle did the gathering. What was reaped & what was gathered? "..the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are ripe". These are not the tares in Matthew, but are shown as being slashed off the vine, & that at their crushing, their juice (as blood) came out in volumes as a result of Christ's Judgement; maybe at that great final battle when the enemies of Christ are slaughtered ( Revelation 19:17-21).
The parable of the wheat & the tares is for "the end of this world" ( Matthew 13:40), not post-trib, nor pre-trib. So I don't read this parable as you do & in comparing it with Revelation 14.
The Bible also gives a different wording on how to be saved. Sometimes it says by grace you are saved through faith. Sometimes it says, those who call upon the Lord will be saved, Sometimes it says to confess with your mouth and believe with your heart and you'll be saved. It's all the same thing, worded differently.
You're comment that the two events, in Matthew and Revelation, aren't the same events because they are worded differently....doesn't make sense to me. How many times in the bible is the rapture worded differently? Every single time. Matthew and Luke tell the story of Jesus' birth differently, since Luke doesn't mention the wise men, is Luke's account a different birth? Nope
I'm sorry to say, Chris, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. God Bless
Thanks for your time Tammy - I have appreciated it & I think we'll close off this subject here, finding it beneficial to provoke our further search of the Scriptures. Every blessing sister.
Matthew 13:30 Let them grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The field is the world, both the seeds of wheat and the seeds of tares are planted together, they grow together and are harvested together, but one goes to the fire and the other to the barn.
During Christ time everyone was associated with farming, today not many know much of anything about farming.
The tares are weeds, yet they also bear seed, the farmer burned the weeds to destroy their seed; so they, the weeds, would not keep multiplying, the wheat is gather into the barn to be replanted and thus multiplying.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
Christ is the SEED, the SEED (wheat) is gather into the barn and replanted so it will multiply.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must go again (after your harvested) and prophesy again before many peoples, and nations and tongues.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (the SEED) died anymore (you died with Christ): for they (the SEED) are EQUAL unto the angels; and are the children (the SEED) of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION (you were raised with Christ) ...
the new creation the new SEED.
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (the harvested SEED), saith the Lord (our Father), MY SPIRIT that is upon thee (Christ, the WORD, the SEED, and the WORDS (seed) that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED forever.
God bless you.
God didn't make his word easy to understand if it were easy they wouldn't be thousands of different beliefs.
He made each of us a part of his body.
He brings us together so each can add their gift to the collective understanding of his word.
There are some he brings that understand Greek, some understand history, some understand prophecies, some understand prayer, all have a part in our coming to truth.
A large part of the parables are ingrained in farming and husbandry; my great grandparents, my grandparents, my parents
were farmers, I have lived on the farm and farmed all my life.
I have seen the wheat and tares growing together, at harvest the labours are sent into the field to gather the crop, some go ahead and gather out of the field the noxious weeds, place them on a flatbed trailer and carry them to the end of the field and burn them, so the seed of that unwanted weed doesn't propagate itself.
The wheat is put in the barn, to be used latter, as food for man and beast, but also to be replanted to propagate itself.
The parable depicts these two kinds of seed, one the WORD OF GOD of God, the other the deception and false teachings of Satan.
These seeds of Satan abide in our CARNAL mind, each person is the vineyard of God, the labours are the angles, spiritual messengers, that harvest the seeds, they are ministers of FIRE.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels SPIRIT; his ministers a FLAMING FIRE.
They gather the seeds of Satan; the carnal mine, that is enmity to the WORD, and they destroy those seeds by the FIRE OF THE LORD; his WORD, TRUTH, then they gather the wheat into the barn.
This is a ONE on ONE harvest.
Isaiah 27:12 ...and I shall gather (harvest) YOU ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.
Christ is the PROMISED SEED of Israel.
God bless you.
The old Darnel, wheat's evil twin, it as the world is intoxicating, and enough of it will kill. We eat the seeds and get dizzy or today a buzz, like the seeds of the world we want more and more, and death is the reward. Like the darnel the world messes with our vision as our reading and studying of the word, the answers from our mind fit better with the world than the answers from the Holy Spirit. They hide amongst the good and only can be identified at the time of harvest.
Good parable, that fits the world today.
God bless,
RLW
WE are saved yet by FIRE ---- 1 Corinthians 3:13
Our God is a consuming FIRE ---- Hebrews 12:29
God is the WORD --- the word is GOD ---- John 1:1
I will baptise YOU with the HOLY GHOST and FIRE
You are BORN AGAIN by the WORD of GOD
Every time we read and study the WORD we are being judged and baptised with the FIRE OF THE LORD
FIRE is the judgement of GOD
Psalms 37:28 For the Lord loveth JUDGEMENT ....
2 Corinthians 5:10 .... we all must appear before he judgement seat .....
1 Peter 4:17 For the TIME IS COME that JUDGEMENT must begin at the HOUSE of the LORD
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ --- the WORD --- the SEED ---- the FIRE ---who is a son over his OWN HOUSE, whose House we are ...
The WORD of GOD is the FIRE OF GOD
And they were CAST ALIVE into the lake of fire --- the JUDGING WORD'S of GOD ----
You are save and born again by FIRE and WATER --- the living fire and the living water ---- the LAKE of FIRE ----
God bless you.
If there are things I don't understand in the bible, I set it aside and come back to it later, I pray for understanding.
I have two Strong's sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I can't rationalize taking an English word, going back to Hebrew or Greek, to get the English meaning. I personally believe the KJV transcribers did a good job.
Also, Jesus gives us a lot of information, when the apostles didn't understand what He was teaching, Jesus broke it down for them....and for us.
It actually melts my heart when I think of how God loved us so much, He gave us His Word, Jesus said that it would be published among all nations. So, everyone, from the farmer to the King of England could read His Word, and if they have eyes to see and ears to hear, they might also understand.
God Bless
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