Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

I did not know that , thankyou .

Jema You are not wrong in your comment. We should also keep in mind the many verses of deception the Bible warns of in the Lastdays. The many verses about false doctrine that the Bible warns us of in the Lastdays. Where is that false doctrine today? Where is that deception today? (Modern version supporters should think on these things) The Devil has the power to deceive many especially in the time period we live in now. How easy would it be for Satan and his demonic followers to be in charge of changing Gods Word in all the modern version bibles in this time period to deceive people without them even knowing it? Many verses in the Bible warn of the deception and false doctrine but many just seem to ignore those warnings. There's one verse that I have posted many times that is ((proof)) that modern versions are words of men, (perverted) words not Inspired by God. ( Jer. 23:36) The word (perverted) is #2015; it means ((to change)). ( Jer. 23) was a warning of false prophets and pastors, and v23 tells us they (changed) the words of the living God. Thank you for your comment Jema. Blessings.

Where does God's word say: God used holy men to translate the bible?

Holy men penned the words of God by the Spirit of Christ.

Where does it say holy men translated the exact meaning of God's word.

Only the anointing of the Spirit of Christ can bring you to truth of the of meaning of God's word.

The Jews had the WORD written in Hebrew, the gentiles have the WORD written in Greek, we have dictionaries and concordances; yet no one understands the WORD written; because the WORD is God, a living man, not LETTERS on a page written by flesh and blood.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing you have received of him (THE LIVING WORD) abideth IN YOU, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the SAME anointing teaches you all things, and is TRUTH, and no lie, and even as it (the anointing) hath taught you, ye shall abide IN HIM.

God bless you

Donna,

I also, along with GiGi, agree with what you are saying. Even though we are blessed to have Gods word in written form, I believe that if every bible in the world disappeared, God would still be able to communicate to us through other means. It is His Spirit that speaks to our hearts, and it doesn't have to be in writing. Before there was a bible in existence, God used various ways to reveal Himself and communicate His will to mankind.

There are places around the world today where bibles are not available, and in some places, it is against the law to have a bible. But in those places, Gods Spirit is still working, revealing Himself to those people. And as you say, The Jews had the WORD written in Hebrew. But even before the first five books (Torah) were written, God still communicated with them by other means.



Again, it is a blessing to have Gods word in written form and have the freedom to study from it. Who knows how much longer we will have that freedom? But even if our bibles were taken away, we still have Gods Spirit in us to communicate His will in our lives.

GiGi, I completely agree with your statement that "Some translations are better than others, but none is perfect." Amen!

Donna The answer to that question is ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) If we didn't have the Word of God written down in a book somewhere then how could the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth? We have to be seeking His Truth somewhere, it doesn't just come to us without some type of studying from a book of some kind. ( Ps. 12:6-7) v6 Tells us "The words of the LORD are pure words" The word (pure) is #2889; it means unadulterated, uncontaminated, sound. ( Proverbs. 30:5-6) Tell us "((Every word)) of God is pure", v6 Tells us "Add thou not unto ((his words))" ( Isa. 55:11) Tells us "So shall ((my words)) be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ( Mt. 4:4) Tells us "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by ((every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God)) Now back to ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) These verses tell us the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: BUT HOLY MEN OF GOD SPAKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST. The word (spake) is #2980; it means to talk, i.e. utter words, preach, speak (after) to "lay" forth, relate in words usually of systematic or set discourse, put forth. If God preserved His Words like He promised in ( Ps. 12:6-7) These verses are the only verses that could possibly be how He preserved them for this generation today. Jesus tells us in ( Mk. 13:23) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. I hope this helps Donna. Blessings.

Jimbob:

The written word; through BELIEF of those written words, BECOMES the LIVING WORD:

The WORD of God is the SEED

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.

John 1:1 In the beginning was THE WORD (the seed), and THE WORD (the seed) was with God, and THE WORD (the seed) was God.

The WRITTEN words are just a WITNESS, of the LIVING WORD.

John 1:14 And THE WORD was made flesh .....

Romans 8:3 God (the Word, the SEED) sending his own son (the WORD, the SEED) as SINFUL FLESH ....

ALL FLESH (the WORD, THE SEED became flesh) died on the Cross with CHRIST: ALL FLESH arose a NEW CREATION (the WORD, the SEED)

Psalms 12:6 The WORDS (YOU, all men; the new creation, by the WORKS of the resurrection) are pure (living) WORDS: as silver TRIED in the furnace of earth (you were first made of dust), purified seven times (this is speaking of the living WORD (YOU) not the written WORD (the letters of the law).

The WRITTEN WORD has to become the LIVING WORD.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible SEED (sinful flesh), but incorruptible, by the (living WORD, made known by the written) WORD OF GOD, with liveth and abideth forever.

Isaiah 59:21 As for me (God the WORD, the SEED), this is my covenant with them (the new creation in Christ, by his resurrection), My spirit that I have put upon THEE (CHRIST), and my (living) WORDS that I have put in thy (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed (the WORD), nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (the WORD) forever.

God bless you.

Jesus was the Word made flesh , John ch 12 verses 23+24 . Jesus was buried in the earth for three days . He is the tree of life . We are partakers of that tree when we eat his flesh , he is the living water that waters us and helps us to grow as Christians . Isaiah Ch 58 verses 6-11 .

Hi again Jimbob,

We can remember that Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses did not have a written Torah to refer to, but God actually spoke audibly to them over their lifetimes. God had the prophets just simply speak under the influence of the Holy Spirit without rehearsing their words. David poured his heart out to God in His psalms. How many of these were literate enough to read Hebrew? Moses was. perhaps David.

God is able to bring His message to whomever He wishes in whatever way He deems good. For centuries the Bible was in the hands of the church leaders because most people could not read and the printing press had not been invented yet. Even when it was invented, people needed to become literate and be able to also afford a Bible. So for most of history, people did not have a Bible to read and study. But God still made His will and character known in a variety of ways.

We are blessed to be literate, some of us in several languages. In fact in most other developed countries, they have their native language and also read and speak English and other languages. Americans are normally not literate in any other language but

English. So, we are at a disadvantage. But we have the Bible translated in English for us. And as a result, we have benefited from the scholarship of so many others.

I am very grateful to have been given a strong desire to read the Bible since I was 9 AND to have a Bible in my home to read all of my life. I was also very blessed to be in a family of faith. We went to church every Sunday and at church a selections was read from the Old Testament and the Psalms and Gospels and the Epistles every service. So I heard and read a lot of Scripture over the 20 years I lived at home before I went off to college to finish my teaching degree. I used to love to just sit and read the Bible in the 15 minutes before services began when people would sit or kneel to pray or read.

I know that even as a young child, God's Word spoke to me.

Jewish people from ancient times have always taught their children to read , especially the boys but girls also . There are many Torah scrolls that are hundreds of years old . Throughout history there have been thousands and thousands of Greek people who could read Greek , their civilisation also placed a high regard for education . There have also been many thousands of Hebrews who could read Hebrew . Throughout history , the catholic church and many other authorities have discouraged education for the masses , the last thing people in power want is educated masses . Even now , the powers that be like us to be distracted by foolishness and vanity in order to discourage us from thinking for ourselves about what is really going on in this world . Keeping people uneducated has long been a tool of oppression and still is in many parts of the world , sadly . The catholic church did not want anyone to read the Bible for themselves because so many of it's doctrines directly contradict what God says in the Bible . Half my family are catholics and even when I have pointed out these contradictions to them , showed them the actual Word of God , they just shrug and say that they believe the church is always right . Blind leading the blind , though in these days of printing press etc , there really isn't any excuse anymore other than mental disability or living in a country that doesn't permit the Bible .

Jema,

Yes, some societies have educated their children to be literate over the course of history. But by and large, the Europeans did not do so. It was the churches, including the Catholic church that established schools to educate and being adherents to literacy.

The public school system came after the private school movement in America.

Donna, you are right.

The Bible only says that He inspired the original writers of the books of Scripture. But it doesn't say that He equally inspired any translators to chose words that show the exact meaning of what was originally written. In translating into another language there is difficulty finding the best words that match the original languages. This is why translators take into consideration the whole sentence and the bigger context around the word they are trying to translate to help them in selecting words and phrases for the translation. The translators of the various Bible translations had good intentions and desired to accurately translate the Scriptures. Some translations are better than others, but none is perfect.

There are some that are word for word translations such as the KJV and the NASB

There are some that are phrase for phrase translations such as the NIV and others.

Each person will choose the translation(s) that work best for them to understand what God is speaking in the Scriptures.

Hi Donna.

You can read that citation in 2 Peter 1:21. I think this is what you were looking for.

That was enlightening brother Jesse & many thanks for that clarification. I did look up Matthew 24:13 in Strong's Concordance & noted that if 'hupomeno' was the word used, then 'to wait, stay behind, endure' would be accurate. But in context & in how the Greek is grammatically expressed, then 'hypomeinas', (from 'hupomeno'), is the word used & implied, which of course as you wrote is, 'having endured' (or, 'the one who has endured').

And this 'difference' might appear to be minor to most unless one understands its ramifications. The former (hupomeno) implies that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end; whereas the latter (hypomeinas) shows that the Christian who has received salvation will/must endure to the end - no exceptions, no allowances made. That any turning back from God's Promises, denial of Christ or the faith, even succumbing to threats to life or family, only shows that a mighty spiritual change & the ministering Holy Spirit within has never been evident in the person's life.

I think that this would be an extremely sad scenario, when one's life is placed ahead of the Lord's Love & Mercy - when self-preservation is counted more important than self-sacrifice for the Love of God. And so we see many examples of Matthew 24:13, both today & especially of yesteryear, of the reformers who withstood the onslaught of popery against them & went to the stake, willingly accepting the fagots lit about them, remaining resolute in faith & calling on God for strength. These have endured because of the Spirit's enabling within & not on human resolve & strength for victory, which only guarantees failure - for some have denied their Lord. Their joyful deaths proved their salvation & outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

(Part 2):

Jesus Himself teaches this in Matthew 24:13 when He says, "But the one who has endured unto the end, this one will be saved." Endurance is a major characteristic being developed in each believer through the maturation process. It is only through endurance that the gospel is preached, and it is only through the development of endurance that a believer is able to hold steady through the tribulations and hardships of life to reach the end when all believers will reign with Christ. Paul, in encouraging the Thessalonians concerning the patient waiting for the coming of Christ, writes in 2 Thessalonians 3:5, "Now may the Lord guide your hearts into the love of God, and into the endurance of Christ." Enduring circumstances is a fundamental characteristic of the person who is saved.

Chapter 21 of Luke presents the hardships that will come upon those who belong to Christ in the last days. In our study text, Luke 21:19, Jesus commands His followers to gain their souls through the endurance of these hardships. This statement is parallel to one found in Matthew 24:13, "But the one having endured unto the end shall be saved." Both of these gospel writers present the teaching of Jesus as saying that the one who belongs to Christ will endure unto the end. Patient endurance, according to Jesus, is a characteristic of the one who is saved; it is not the work ethic of the believer.

Blessings to you in Christ!

Thanks brother Jesse. In your quoting me: "As for HUPOMENO possibly implying that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end", I understand that Matthew 24:13 is sometimes taken by a few to mean that salvation cannot be realized now but only at the final judgement (which takes into account that endurance/perseverance must be worked at/pursued so as to attain eternal life). But the Greek rendering, as you've shown, has a different meaning, and this is important to any who believe that our salvation isn't secure until a future time. But the Word tells us that we are secure NOW & this fact, by the Holy Spirit's witness, assures us that "He will keep us from falling & present us faultless before the presence of his glory...", i.e. the Spirit working in us ensures our endurance till the end.

So, I see that using Hupomeno or Hupomeinas does make a difference - and an important one at that. Thanks again & every blessing.

Brother Chris,

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for catching that. The text does say HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. That was my mistake. And yes, I agree that we have salvation now, not something we hope to have later.

God bless!!!

Jesse and Chris. This is what I get from ( Mk. 13:13) and ( Mt. 13:13) the word (endure) is #5278; it means to stay under (behind) i.e. remain fig. to undergo, i.e. bear (trials) have fortitude, persevere, abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly) suffer, tarry behind. That word (endure) has the same meaning as the word (suffer) in ( 2 Tim. 11-12) v12 "If we (suffer), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us". Also if we look at what's going on in that part of the Chapters we see in ( Mt. 24:8, 13) The beginning of sorrows started 5 verses before "But he that shall (endure) unto the end, the same shall be saved". In ( Mk. 13:13) The beginning of sorrows started 5 verses before "And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake: but he that shall (endure) unto the end, the same shall be saved". ( 1 Pet. 1:7) Tells us "That the (trial) of your faith being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be (tried) with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". The word (trial) is #1383; it means a testing, trustworthiness, trying, test. The word (tried) is #1381; it means to test, by implying to approve, examine, try. (This verse tells us our faith will be tested before the appearing of Jesus Christ) In ( 1 Pet. 4:12-13) Tells us "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the (fiery trial) which is to try you, as some strange thing happened unto you. v13 "But rejoice as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings: that when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. The words (fiery trial) is #4451; it means calamity as a test. In ( Ps. 11:4-5) The words (try) and (trieth) in these verses have the same meaning #974 they mean to test, to investigate, examine, try, trial. And then we have ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Tells us there will be a (falling away) first. The word (falling) is # 646; it means deflection from truth, (writing of divorcement) Plese read this more than 1 time. Blessings

(Part 5):

Jimbob,

Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, and he said now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons. We have that in our day. It even happened back in Paul's day and they thought that it would really be a serious time. It was for them, but it's gotten worse!

As far as endurance goes, God produces endurance in us. God works in our lives to produce the endurance we would not be able to manufacture by our own efforts. He does this as we properly respond to our trials. When we go through trials and hardships, even severe persecution, God gives us the ability to endure through them.

You listed persevere as a definition which is correct. Perseverance of the saints means that God keeps believers by his power, and strengthens their faith so that they can persevere. Perseverance of the saints is God's work. God uses various methods to cause believers to persevere. We are put through trials, we are tested, but we will persevere, we will endure because Christ in us gives us the ability to endure.

Lastly, if I may share a couple of quotes:

"The one who endures - This statement in one sense describes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Genuine disciples will endure to the end of their life or the end of this age not by their own efforts but because the indwelling Spirit enables them to endure to the end. Endurance does not save anyone but it demonstrates that one is truly saved! Stated another way, it is not one's endurance (self-effort or works) that saves them but that one is able to endure because of the fact that they are saved."

(Charles Spurgeon)

"Faith that perseveres is faith endowed and sustained by the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ.

(Matthew Commentary)

Blessings in Christ!!!

Thanks brother Jesse for your detailed response on these verses, which has indeed blessed me & helped in my understanding of those passages. Just two matters to bring up if I may: I can see where Jimbob gets the 'hupomeno' application for the word (not the phrase in context), as I also see that under Strong's# 5278. But I read that that word cannot be read on its own as it cannot make sense or fit in with what is written. So, the verse in Greek would read (& correct me if I'm wrong): 'ho de hupomeinas eis telos houtos sothesetai', which clearly modifies 'hupomeno', so that it can be read as intended & given.

The other point that came up from reading through your pages, was the great lack of pulpit preaching & teaching about the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. This might be generally believed by all because God has given His children His Presence within them, but how often we fail to apply the significance, the power, & the manifestation of God's Spirit's Work in our lives. We may then be persuaded to read the NT as 'Jesus has done His blessed Work at Calvary to save & redeem us unto the Father, but now we must do our part to maintain that new life & bring honor & glory to His Name'.

On the surface this would be commendable, but we would miss out on the vital message of this new life & new indwelling Spirit: that the Spirit is continually present & continually working in & through the believer's life; that the very presence of a child of God in a godless world, is the vessel of Light & Truth that must shine and that Light will continue to shine & affect others if we are conscious of the Holy Spirit within & allowing Him to work out God's Purposes through us. Our efforts will be there for sure, but if our efforts are a result of the Spirit's out-working, then Who is actually doing the work? And who are the vessels, purified, sanctified, "and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work"? ( 2 Timothy 2:21). Every blessing brother.

Brother Chris,

You are right, that is the correct reading from the Greek Text, and it literally would read "The yet one under-remaining (one-enduring) into finish (consummation) this one shall be being saved. So, taking Matthew 24:13 literally from the Greek, this tells us that the one who is presently enduring will continue to endure to the finish or consummation. A true believer, one who has born of God's Spirit, will never stop enduring. And yes, the word HUPOMENO cannot be read on its own with the exact same meaning every time it is used as there are several different forms and transliterations of this one word. And the things you are saying make perfect sense. I have nothing to add to what you've already written.

Blessings to you!!!

Thank you brother Jesse for your reply. The Lord be with you & minister His Word through you to others seeking help.

Brother Chris,

I will get back with you as soon as I can. My wife and I are getting the grandkids for a couple of days so I'm not sure when I will get a break! But I will get back with you soon (Lord willing).

(Part 4):

Jimbob,

I agree with you on 1 Peter 1:7 that "This verse tells us our faith will be tested before the appearing of Jesus Christ." Christ has not appeared yet, but yet our faith is being continually tested every day. We do not know the exact time that Christ will appear, but our faith is presently being tested.

Here is what I see in 1 Pet. 4:12-13:

In Verse 12, he says beloved (which is an affectionate term for those who are loved by God, the objects of His love). Then he says think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you. Don't be surprised. Don't think it strange. The term fiery trial in the Old Testament is the word for furnace, and it's used for the refining processes of the metals. It was introduced to us a little in 1 Peter 1:6-7, wherein you greatly rejoice, (that is, concerning your salvation), though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations (or trials): that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than that of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto the praise, and honor, and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So, he's already introduced it and said that you rejoice over your salvation, but for our time here on the earth, you'll be going through the fire, the refining process. He says think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you. Trial means to approve of something after testing.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it says "falling away." The Greek word is APOSTASIA. It's the word apostasy. So first of all, there must come an apostasy first. Apostasy means that people will leave the truth of the gospel, leave the faith in Christ, and it will be a godless world more and more. So first of all, there must be an apostasy against God and the gospel.

(Part 3):

Jimbob,

2 Timothy 2:11 is the creed for the servant. When we see the phrase "it is a faithful saying" in the New Testament, it is literally, "the word is faithful." It was a phrase used in the New Testament church to say that these phrases were going around various churches, coming from various teachers and apostles that were not found in scripture, but were considered to be the word of God at that time. There was no New Testament. So, whenever a teacher says this is a faithful saying, it means this has been established in all the churches from the apostles and others, and it can be considered to be the word of God.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 should be taken together. If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the creed for a servant. Whatever hardship I must go through to serve Christ, if I be dead with Him, if I suffer, I'm going to live with Him and I'm also going to reign with Him. I've entered into the sufferings of Christ, not my sufferings, so that as I identify with His life and sufferings now, one day I'm going to reign with Him.

In Matthew 24, if I begin with Verse 1, it is easy to see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, not Gentiles, and not the church. Matthew 24:9 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." These are to the Jews. We are not suffering, nor will we suffer any of these things. The reason I say this is because Jesus is going to give direction as to what they (Jews) are to do about it. This lines up of with the fourth horse, the pale horse in Revelation 6:7-8 where death comes. He says, they will kill you: and you should be hated of all nations for my name sake.

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

Why would the 12 be hated? Because they preached Christ. Jesus knew ahead of time what their fate would be. They would be persecuted, tortured, and except for Judas who killed himself, they would die horrible deaths. They would suffer martyrdom. Did they endure to the end? Yes, they never wavered in their faith, all the way to their death. They endured to the end of their lives, and it would be safe to believe they were saved. But Jesus was not speaking to the church telling them they must endure the 7-year tribulation period, and if they endured, they would be saved.



This is the same thing we see in Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13. We have to take these verses in context of who Jesus is actually speaking to. He wasn't speaking to the church. The church was not in existence yet. In Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark Chapter 13, Jesus is speaking to the Jews (Jewish believers).

I am looking at the other verses you gave. The first being 2 Timothy 2:11-12. That needs to be taken along with Verses 7-14 where Paul is giving Timothy instruction for service. Paul is confined, and in Verse 9, he says he suffers trouble (because of the gospel). He suffered in prison, was put in chains, and beaten. But in 2 Timothy 2:10, Paul says, "therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes.

The word endure here is HUPOMENO which means to remain under. Paul says I remain under all of my difficult circumstances because I can be bound, but the gospel can't. Therefore, I endure all these things. He says I preach the gospel wherever I am enduring the hardships, so that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul endured through tribulation/trials.

Pt 2

Jesse

In Philippians 3:12-14 Paul talks about himself,

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I MAY apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count NOT myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

In 2 Timothy 4:6-8, which is Paul's last letter before his martyrdom, when everything in his life was to end soon he writes,

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Finally lets go to Matthew 19:28,

"And Jesus said unto them (the 12), Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Jesus gives a promise to His disciples, including Judas, that they will sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Did Judas get that promise? No, he didn't. Why not? Because he failed. But that promise was for him as well, wasn't it? But he didn't get it. There is always a condition for one to get the promise of salvation, like Paul wrote above to "have fought a good fight, to have finished the course, to have kept the faith".

GBU

Pt 1

Hello Jesse

I had decided not to participate any more in discussions we have all had before about "secured or not salvation", but at the end it seems I can not avoid it.

About the grk HUPOMENO and HUPOMEINAS.

HUPOMENO is a verb of the first person, its complete form is "ego hupomeno", it means "I endure", (as you know in grk when speaking the personal pronoun is ommited since from the ending of the verb it is known to whom it is reffered).

HUPOMENON is a noun, it means "the one who endures, an endurer".

HUPOMEINAS is the same as above but it refers to the past, i.e. "the one who endured", I don't think there is a respective single word in Eng.

[Pronountiation in mod grk (if you are interested), the "h" is not pronounced, and the "u" is pron. as "ee". So it is "ee-poh-meh-noh", stressed at "meh". Always have in mind that syllables in grk usually are of the form conson-vowel, not conson-vowel-conson, neither vowel-conson. as in Eng. Also vowels are clear front mouth vowels. That will help you a lot when pronouncing grk words.]

So lets go to Mark 13:13, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.". I don't really understand how you come to understand that verse the way you do. To me it is obvious that it says exactly how it sounds, that the one who endured those tribulations (Jesus speaks as if He sees those events after they happened, that is why He uses the past tense) he WILL be saved.

Similarly James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he SHALL receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him". How do you understand this verse? It is like running a road, of say 10 miles, if one finishes then one receives a crown.

Hebrews 6:15, "And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise"

Rom 11:22, "...but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Hi Jimbob,

Sorry for the late reply. I have not had a chance to be on here for a couple days. I just read your address to myself and brother Chris. This might be a little long, so I apologize ahead of time. I will begin this as (Part 1):

I had previously asked you if you were referring to the word HUPOMENO because #5278 in the Strong's Concordance is the word HUPOMENO. However, both the Textus Receptus and the Greek Interlinear use show it as HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. Those words are closely related but when properly used, they convey different meanings. I don't know why Strong's says HUPONEO when the Greek text actually uses HUPOMEINAS. If you own a Greek Interlinear Bible, you will see the correct usage.

HUPOMEINAS is used in three places in the NT ( Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13). It is #5278 in the Strong's Concordance, but the word is HUPOMEINAS, not what's listed in the Strong's. This word (HUPOMEINAS) describes a person who is saved. A saved person (will) endure to the end. Some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, they will be saved. They say that you have to endure to the end of the tribulation. But that is not the proper context of these scriptures.



In Matthew 10:22, Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is the training of the 12 which is outlined for us in Verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation. In Verse 22, Jesus says, "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He's speaking to the 12.

Jesse, I'm sorry but I only read your first page so far, but I have a response now. Speaking of ( Mt 10:22) ( Mt 24:13) and ( Mk 13:13) You said, "Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is a training of the 12 which is outlined for us in verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation" You also said "In verse 22 Jesus says "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my names sake, but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" He's speaking to the 12". Jesse you say Jesus is speaking to the 12 but if we read ( Mt 10:19-21) v19 Tells us "when they ((deliver you up)), take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak". v20 Tells us "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Now when does this ((deliver you up)) take place? ( Mk. 13:4-8) v8 Tells us "these are the beginnings of sorrows" ( Mk. 13:9-13) v9 says "for they shall ((deliver you up)) to councils" v11 says "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost". These next verses ( Mk. 13:14,19,20) Tells us And ye shall see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not, (which will start great tribulation). Jesse you said "some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, shall be saved" ((deliver you up)) is tied into the end-time tribulation period through these verses. These verses about being ((delivered up)) are prophecy for the end-time tribulation period, that is in context! Jesus IS speaking about people enduring through the end-time tribulation in those verses, Doesn't this ((deliver you up)) time period ((prove)) that?? Thank you Jesse

Jimbob,

I agree with you that Jesus covered things that will happen during the end times. But it is true that He was speaking to the twelve.

The only thing I would like to change is my statement saying "Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation."

That would be incorrect for me to say that. There will be people who endure and will make it through the tribulation. There will also be people who get saved during that time.

So, as for that statement I made, I would like to change it to read "Jesus is not speaking about the church enduring through the end time tribulation."

Blessings!

Jesse thank you for your response and for that correction, but you didn't answer the question I asked you in my comment. Jesus was speaking to the 12 Apostles or to someone in all 4 gospels but that doesn't mean it's not prophecy for the end-times. ( 2 Tim. 3:16) Doesn't the ((deliver you up)) time period (prove) that Jesus was speaking of the end-time tribulation period? This is when True Believers will be ((delivered up)) and the Holy Ghost will speak through them in the Lastdays. ( Mt. 24:8-13) v9 "deliver you up" ( Mk. 13:9-13) v9,11, "deliver you up" (Lu. 21:11-15) v12 "delivering you up" This is a prophecy for the end-times, Isn't it Jesse? Again thank you Jesse, but I would really like to here what your thoughts are on this question? Blessings.

Hello Jimbob,

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you are asking me about where Jesus said "when they deliver you up," and when this takes place, if the "deliver you up" time period proves that Jesus was speaking of the end-time tribulation period?

My answer is no, and here's why. In Matthew 10:16, Jesus says "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Jesus is sending them out as sheep amongst wolves. He knows what's going to happen to them once they start preaching the gospel, and He tells them what's going to happen in Matthew 10:17-18. They are going to be "delivered up."

Jesus is not talking about the end-time tribulation period here. He is sending His disciples out and telling them that they will be delivered up to the councils (Jewish Councils). And then in Matthew 10:19, Jesus says "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (This is not talking about the end-time).

In Matthew 24:9, this is to the Jews, not the church.

In Mark 13:9, Jesus says "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."

What I notice are the words council and synagogues. The word council is literally Sanhedrin, the chief Council of the Jews. Jesus is talking to Jewish people. He is talking directly to His disciples. He is talking directly to His believers, (Jewish believers). Mark 13:11 tells us that they are going to be captured. As for Luke 21:12, this is also to the Jews, not the church.

When dealing with end-time prophecy I think the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. They are not the same message.

Blessings to you!

Jesse thank you for that answer. But Jesse ( Mt. 24) is prophecy for the Lastdays. Right? You say its only for the Jews, which I completely disagree with and will show why its not in this post, but it is still prophecy for the Lastdays. Right? ( Mt. 24:9) Tells us those who are (delivered up) are killed, this happens in the next verse after the beginning of sorrows in ( Mt. 24:8) A few verses after this in ( Mt. 24:15) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place. A few verses after that in ( Mt. 24:21-22) The starting of great tribulation. Jesse do you think ( Mt 24) is prophecy for the Lastdays? It has to be Jesse a much of it is during great tribulation. I cant see how you got the word "council" as meaning in your words "the word council is literally Sanhedrin". Could you please explain how you came up with that? Jesse the Disciples were speaking of the same event in ( Mt. 24:9-15) ( Mk. 13:9-14) and ( Luke. 21:12-16) They all asked Jesus this question? ( Mt. 24:3) ( Mark. 13:4) and ( Luke. 21:7) This is telling us of the things that will be taking place during the time period of the beginning of sorrows and also into great tribulation! Now what could cause one to be (delivered up) and killed during great tribulation? ( Rev. 13:16-18) The mark of the beast will. ( Rev. 12:8-12) v9 Satan is cast out. v12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time". Now ( Rev. 12:17) Tells us who the devil will make war against and force his mark upon. This will be the reason for true Believers to be (delivered up) Also in ( Mk. 13:9) the word (synagogues) is #4864; it means an assemblage of persons, specifically a Jewish "synagogue" (the meeting or the place) by analogy a Christian church, assembly, congregation. (The word synagogue can mean a Christian church). These are prophecies, events that will take place in the near future Jesse. Thanks again Jesse. God Bless you.

(Part 3):

Jimbob,

But there will be other Jews and Gentiles here on the earth that basically will believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior. They will lose their lives. But after Satan sees that his efforts to chase the nation into the wilderness fail, he'll go after the remnants seed.

Thank you for sharing Strong's #G4864, an assemblage of persons, specifically a Jewish "synagogue" (the meeting or the place) by analogy a Christian church, assembly, congregation. (The word synagogue can mean a Christian church).

I would also like to share how the Thayer's Greek Lexicon describes the word synagogue:

a. An assembly of Jews formally gathered together to offer prayer and listen to the reading and exposition of the Holy Scriptures.

b. The building where those solemn Jewish assemblies are held.

Can it also refer to a Christian Church? I guess it can if the Strong's says so. But have you ever asked another fellow believer "What synagogue do you attend?" I think if you were to ask a Christian that question, their response is probably going to be "I attend a church fellowship, not a synagogue." I really don't think you're going to find many (if any) Christian believers who will tell you that they attend a synagogue.

Blessings!

Hello Jesse

About synagogue and church.

Synagogue is a grk originated word (synagoge). It is used in the Septuagint version of the O. T. for the Hebrew " ben kenesset" Through Latin it entered the Eng. language. It is a complex word. The verb is "synago". From "syn" (add, plus) and "ago". (lead, draw). Its meaning as said is to "draw together", thus an "assembly"

Church in grk is "ekklesia". Also complex word. The verb is "ekkalo". From ek(from) and kalo(call). Its meaning is to "call from or call together", thus also an assembly. The early church borrowed that word from the "ekklesia(assembly) of Demos(the body of citizens)" of the ancient city/state of Athens. It was the congregation of citizens of Athens who voted for the city's affairs. The early church preferred that term over the older "synagoge" to distinguish the church from the Hebrew religion. Just for information.

Giannis,

Thank you for sharing that.

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

Where I said the word council in Mark 13:9 is literally the Sanhedrin, I got this from reading it in the Greek Text. The word used in the Textus Receptus is SUNEDRIA, and it is the word for Sanhedrin. This can also be found in your Strong's Concordance #G4892, which defines it as the Jewish Sanhedrin; by analogy, a subordinate tribunal:-council. Thayer's Greek Lexicon lists it as the Sanhedrin, the great council at Jerusalem.

Now for your question, "what could cause one to be (delivered up) and killed during great tribulation?" You say "The mark of the beast will." If you are saying that those who refuse to take the mark will be killed (beheaded), then I agree. I can't agree that this will be the church because as you know, I believe the church will not be here at that time. Only non-believers will be here. They will all be warned not to take the mark. Some will heed to the warning and receive Christ, and refuse to take the mark. They will be killed.

As for Revelation 12:17, the "woman" in this verse is making reference to the nation Israel, not the church. It says that the dragon was wroth (very angry) with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the believing Jews), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So, there is a 144,000 Jews who are sealed on their foreheads. And they will be protected. But there will be other Jews on the earth who will receive the testimony, especially from the two witnesses who are in the streets of Jerusalem. And the believing Jews that will be here on the earth, after Satan sees that he can't get to these 144,000 that are sent up to what many believe is the rock city of Petra, which is already stacked and stored with food, and many believe that will be the place.

Jimbob,

(Part 1):

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't think I ever said that the end-time prophecies are only for the Jews. There will be both Jews and Gentiles on this earth during the tribulation period. What I am saying, and I will try and be a little more specific, but at the time Jesus was speaking those words in Matthew Chapter 24, H was speaking of end-time events, but He was speaking specifically to His disciples (Jewish believers). The church had not yet been established at the time Jesus spoke those words.

In Matthew 1:1, as Jesus was leaving the Jewish temple, His disciples (Jewish men), they came to Him asking three questions ( Matthew 1:3). And then beginning at Verse 4 and going through to the end of the chapter, Jesus answers their three questions. He is speaking specifically to these men who asked Him those questions. That is what I am saying when I said He was speaking to the Jews. I did not say that last day prophecy is only for the Jews. Those were not my words.

Now, I thought I had already answered your question in a previous post when I said that "I agreed with you that Jesus covered things that will happen during the end times." So, to answer your question is Matthew 24 prophecy for the last days? My answer is yes, except for the prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple at the beginning of the chapter which happened in 70 AD.

If you are referring to the 7-year tribulation period as the last days, then yes, Jesus covers that in Matthew Chapter 24. Whether we choose to call it the last days or end-time prophecy, I'm okay with calling it whichever one you choose. Personally, I believe we have been living in the last days for some 2,000 years now ( Hebrews 1:1-2).

Jesse, sorry if I misunderstood you, but what I thought you were saying is that ( Mt 24) was written to the Jews only. Are you saying that ( Mt 24) is prophecy in the Lastdays (only for the Jews?) You also said only non-believers will be left on the earth at the time of the mark of the beast. Is that true Jesse? ( Rev. 14:9-11) Tells us if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God. So the mark of the beast will happen (before) the wrath of God is poured out on the disobedient ones who deny Jesus Christ. The wrath of God is poured upon those who accepted the mark of the beast, ( Rev. 16:1-2) The mark of the beast happens during great tribulation, The wrath of God is poured out on deniers of Jesus Christ (after) great tribulation. Thats when all who are left on the earth will be non-believers (Believers are saved from wrath) ( 1 Thess. 5:9) ( Rom. 5;8-9) ( 1 Thess. 1:10) All non-believers will face that wrath, ( Rom. 1:18) ( Eph. 5:6) ( Col. 3:6) ( John 3:36) These verses are very clear they are different time periods. You also said the remnant of her seed is (the believing Jews) If we look at (Isa.44:1) God says of Israel "whom I have chosen" ( Isa. 45:4) God calls Israel "mine elect" The word (Israel) is #3478 it means he will rule (as) God; a symbolic name of Jacob, also typically of his posterity. (OF HIS POSTERITY) Now ( Rev. 7:4-8) All the tribes of the children of Israel, His posterity. The word (Israel) in Greek is #2474; it means the adopted name of Jacob including his descendants. (The descendants of Jacob, his posterity are the remnant of the seed of Israel which was scattered among the nations by God). ( Jer. 31:10) ( Jer. 50:17) ( Ezek. 20:34) This (seed) can be taken back all the way to ( Gen. 3:15) and also ( Gen. 4:25) That seed was the bloodline that Jesus Christ would be born from into this world. Out of space more soon. Thanks again, Truth matters. God Bless you.

Jimbob,

Thanks for the two questions. I am happy to answer them for you.

First question: Are you saying that ( Mt 24) is prophecy in the Lastdays (only for the Jews?)

I believe I already answered that one in my last post, so I have nothing more to add to what I said.

Second question: "You also said only non-believers will be left on the earth at the time of the mark of the beast. Is that true Jesse?"

Okay, I need to be more specific with what I am saying. Allow me to change what I said. Only non-believers (Unsaved people) will be on the earth at the start of the 7-year Tribulation Period. As you know, I believe the church will be removed from the earth prior to the start of the Tribulation Period, so that leaves only non-believers. The first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in Matthew 24:4-14. And then right in the middle of this 7-years, we have the pivotal point ( Matthew 24:15) where we see the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is when the antichrist helps the Jews to start their sacrifices again. And then the last 3-1/2 years we have the perils of tribulation. The last 3-1/2 years is called the Great Tribulation. And then we have the promise of His coming (Second coming of Christ) in Matthew 24:29-31.

So, to clarify what I was saying, only non-believers will be here at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation Period because the church will have been raptured. But before the pivotal point (Middle of the 7 years), there will be some non-believers who were not raptured that will become believers and they will refuse the mark of the beast.

Blessings!